Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[ViewtifulHoe242]

is it too much to ask that his throw game get improved or atleast revised somehow? anyone who has a concept of di jumps away before any follow up can be achieved. its one thing that his throws have no legit kill power, and thats understandable, but to not get any kind of pursuit off a throw unless my opponents controller is busted? its ****ing annoying

 

[Burnsy]

Actually, I heard that his uthrow and dthrow might have less lag in 3.0 from a PMBR member.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

Actually, I heard that his uthrow and dthrow might have less lag in 3.0 from a PMBR member.

help a brotha out here. by less lag do you mean lucario can act quicker after the throw? that sounds helpful

 

[Burnsy]

That is what I mean.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

Lucario starts each stock with an Aura charge
- Neutral Air is now a multi-hit aerial with similar power
- Up throw has slightly less endlag
- Down throw has slightly less total duration
- Fully charge Aura Sphere travels slightly slower
- Aura Sphere charging scales travel speed slightly more quickly
- Down B has less startup and is invincible slightly longer. Same total duration
- Wallcling can no longer be activated out of Up B Ending
- Final Smash beam is larger, turns faster and further, and is more powerful

i've got a ******** physics exam to study for and my brawl disc died on me so no 3.0 for me for awhile .
but whats the deal with his n-air, does it still have kill power? will he finally have followups from his throws like every other character in the game? did he get his 2.1 down b back? will Gokario finish the spirit bomb in time? find out in the next episode of Smash Ball Z!


(can anyone take a video showing him off and post it here or to youtube, it would be greatly appreciated)

 

[BronzeGreekGod]

Im a lucaruo main and i have a big problem with him starting with a charge for every stock. i think thats way too OP and a silly idea

 

[iLink]

Lucario starts each stock with an Aura charge
- Neutral Air is now a multi-hit aerial with similar power
- Up throw has slightly less endlag
- Down throw has slightly less total duration
- Fully charge Aura Sphere travels slightly slower
- Aura Sphere charging scales travel speed slightly more quickly
- Down B has less startup and is invincible slightly longer. Same total duration
- Wallcling can no longer be activated out of Up B Ending
- Final Smash beam is larger, turns faster and further, and is more powerful

i've got a *****ing physics exam to study for and my brawl disc died on me so no 3.0 for me for awhile .
but whats the deal with his n-air, does it still have kill power? will he finally have followups from his throws like every other character in the game? did he get his 2.1 down b back? will Gokario finish the spirit bomb in time? find out in the next episode of Smash Ball Z!


(can anyone take a video showing him off and post it here or to youtube, it would be greatly appreciated)

Initial hitbox of nair still has kill power, it just has multiple hits if someone shields it and stuff like that.

I was having a degree of success with follow ups to uthrow except on samus because f*** she's so floaty.

Downb isn't as good as 2.1 but *feels* better.

I really don't like starting with an aura charge.

 

[Giygacoal]

Alright, it turns out starting every stock with a charge is actually pretty legit. Try it out. Or maybe it's just fun.

 

[BackwardCap]

It gives me incentive to use them more liberally rather than saving em for kill shots only.

 

[iDare]

These changes to Lucario omg. He's recovery will never be the same without wallcling. That alone is an incredible nerf. Starting with an aura charge almost seems like compensating for an incredible loss. This way (In my opinion) you have a charge for getting back (either down-b or up-b aura cancels) and your usual aura charge you gain for scoring the kill. Don't get me wrong, that might not be the case. I still haven't had enough time with Lucario to be completely sure since its only been what, a few hours? But, I can already feel how different he is (in a way).

Lucario is way more punishable now, it is now possible to gimp Lucario. Other than that, I have to say his new down b is sick! That reduced start up is so good! Lucario received significant buffs to his approaches.

I'm Hyped to see how the new Nair works and how the changes to grabs will aid in combos. Another thing I've noticed, was the engine changed in some way? Because, I noticed some of my combo strings no longer work and I'm not sure why (could be weight changes, knockback changes or a physics change).

Either way, being a Lucario main, I'm really interested in seeing how these changes will affect the way Lucario is played. Maybe a more grab oriented approach? Definetely less YoloimgoingoutthestageI'mamakeitbackanywayslol moments. Lucario arguably had the best possible recovery ever in 2.6, it will be missed.

R.I.P. Lucario's OP Recovery.

 

[drsusredfish]

for right now, fresh from 2.6, i'd rather have wall cling than the free charge but maybe that will change. he can't go under the stages now

 

[Kef]

I don't feel starting with a stock is "OP" by any means, but I agree with iLink that I wish I had to earn it. Still, it's cool that we can use more super cancels, which are a fun part of Lucario.

Up grab is amazing because it opens new combos starting from 0%, something that was not possible on certain characters. Definitively my favorite improvement. N-air is nice and so is the buff on Down-B. I would love to know the exact frame data in terms of it's invincibility but I guess a few tests in training mode can help me conclude it's usability against projectiles.

BTW: I believe there is a hidden buff that Lucario got. I am unsure about this seeing my playtime with Lucario in 2.6b was limited, but I did practice with him the week before 3.0s release, so this possible change was fresh in my mind. I think canceling from F-Tilt allows Lucario to retain the momentum from his body moving forward, much like a Kara-cancel in other fighting games. Conversions from something like Dash-Attack xx F-Tilt xx U-Smash are possible from farther ranges now, and it seems more consistent overall. I did not see this posted on the changeblog and I would like for others to test this as well.

 

[iLink]

I don't really lament the loss of the wall cling considering it's pretty damn good with an aura charge, which you get for free now.

I don't think I've used ftilt enough to see a difference. I'll play around with it and see.

 

[Giygacoal]

BTW: I believe there is a hidden buff that Lucario got. I am unsure about this seeing my playtime with Lucario in 2.6b was limited, but I did practice with him the week before 3.0s release, so this possible change was fresh in my mind. I think canceling from F-Tilt allows Lucario to retain the momentum from his body moving forward, much like a Kara-cancel in other fighting games. Conversions from something like Dash-Attack xx F-Tilt xx U-Smash are possible from farther ranges now, and it seems more consistent overall. I did not see this posted on the changeblog and I would like for others to test this as well.

What you are describing is also in 2.6. It's just hard to figure out the timing.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

It gives me incentive to use them more liberally rather than saving em for kill shots only.

Well couldn't they accomplish that with maybe giving certain actions less aura cost, or maybe all his aura abilities should get the cost looked at? Idk, I really don't agree with this decision, and I feel it goes against the general idea behind his aura. Also, I've never heard of any fighting game ever, that gave a character a free half a bar just by starting the match.

Carrying over a charge after you EARNED IT is one thing, but to me currently, this mechanic is holding your hand a bit much.

 

[Giygacoal]

Also, I've never heard of any fighting game ever, that gave a character a free half a bar just by starting the match.

Marvel and Skullgirls start the players off with a level 1 super ready.

Also, it's okay to take some liberties with the concept to adapt the character to the Smash Bros. setting. The meter concept is used for several different things. Street Fighter uses it for the Alpha Counter, and Lucario uses it for a safer recovery. Besides, most of his supers don't even function like the supers in the traditional fighters I've played (tons of damage in one move, ineffective when carelessly thrown out) to begin with.

We definitely need a PMBR guy to clear up the idea behind this change.

 

[CORY]

also arcana heart gives you a meter at the start of the round, iirc.

i don't think the starting charge is op, but it feels clunky. like, they could've fixed the approach issues he has and then just let him build his own charges that much easier, rather than starting with one. i guess i'm also curious about their thought process behind it.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

....stop proving me wrong about the whole "other fighting games have actually done that", nonsense. All I want to hear is that my opinion is the best, and erbody just agree with me...for realsies though, I agree that a pmbr member needs to shed some light on this. This change obviously needs to have some explaining behind it.

 

[Browny]

Spirit bomb is amazing. I can't get over its potential.

It's so much more than a normal attack I can't even believe something this powerful exists. I'm not talking about its damage or kill power, instead the sheer amount of options that it shuts down from the opponent. Me and the people I have played against are not scrubs by any means although we are new to PM, but I consistently hit with this attack and it makes me think it is easily the best move in the entire game now. With reduced auto ledge snap and recoveries now nerfed across the board, the requirement for a character to upb into or over the ledge makes this thing just a permanent hitbox that can not be avoided.

Secondly to that, when fired backwards into the stage with lucario on the ledge, it allows him to hog the ledge while a death ball will catch anyone who overshoots the ledge (characters like space animals, zss, pikachu, diddy) and if they cut it short to avoid it, lucario can catch them with a ledgehop nair and its outrageous power. If thats not enough, drop the spirit bomb high up space a ledgehop nair to knock them into the spirit bomb for a ridiculous kill combo.

He just owns all 3 options with such simplicity, it is the god of all edgeguards.

Of course its not broken and it has its weakness, but I think this move is like many others in brawl which were clearly meant to be something else, but turned out something very, very devastating instead. I'm thinking of the likes of Pikachus upb quick attack lock, DDD standing chaingrab and grab releases into spikes, things that are basic by themselves but when applied different to how they were intended, can make a character destroy another in a matchup.

I would hate to see such a thing nerfed, Lucario isnt strong enough to warrant one. I want to see more inventive uses for this move from people. Dont try to actually hit the enemy with the move, that is pointless as it is too slow and easy to avoid. Instead, people should use it such that the enemy has no option but to either run into it, or have lucario punish them for even trying to dodge it. Shoot it above the enemies head and use that time when they are quickly re-evaluating how to regain stage control to run up to them and throw them into it. Remember people that is the key, do not give the enemy the ability to dodge it, place it where they ARENT, then cover where they are or are going with lucario. The opponent will make very dumb decisions trying to figure out what to do about it. At the least, you have a better chance that throwing a very slow moving, obvious move right at them which has a low chance of success.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

Spirit bomb is amazing. I can't get over its potential...
If thats not enough, drop the spirit bomb high up space a ledgehop nair to knock them into the spirit bomb for a ridiculous kill combo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=AbL4zgwm_FU#t=235

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxy7kVzJbAA&list=PL46Xs_GAh_b6--TNB3wwdzn-XzzR0eBgj&index=19
i think lucario has the highest edgeguarding possibility in pm hands down. people just havent realized how amazing he is...yet

 

[Ginge]

I'd argue that issue with Spirit Bomb is how easily it can be reflected by various characters or absorbed by the psychic kids.


I have a question for Lucario players: how have you been finding him in Turbo Mode? A lot of what makes Lucario unique is basically available to the other characters in that mode. Is his combo game drastically better in Turbo over normal Vs.? Have you had a problem, say, canceling out of Up-B with A and having it use up an aura charge instead of being an option like it is for others?

 

[batistabus]

Lucario needs an intro buff. He has a pretty lame animation...just kind of floating there when the camera pans to him. I'd like to see the opposite animation of the beginning of his final smash; a quick land on the ground in the "ready to **** **** up pose". It'd be pretty simple, but he would actually be landing on the battle field as opposed to just floating there.

This is the stuff that matters folks.

 

[GunBlaze]

Lucario needs an intro buff. He has a pretty lame animation...just kind of floating there when the camera pans to him. I'd like to see the opposite animation of the beginning of his final smash; a quick land on the ground in the "ready to **** **** up pose". It'd be pretty simple, but he would actually be landing on the battle field as opposed to just floating there.

This is the stuff that matters folks.

He ExtremeSpeeds to the Battlefield with his arms crossed.

If someone needs an intro buff, it's Charizard.

 

[Mera Mera]

You can buffer rolls out of shield to address any attempt to force SideB grab on shield. You can always shield grab to counter any attempt to teleport DownB escape. Also, if you don't fall like a rock, always DI up and away. You'll find yourself escaping the majority of Lucario's potent chains at low-mid%s.
Those are just some starting points.

Note: I edited to quote to cut out the parts I don't have a question on

Hey all and particularly Vanguard or Hylian. I was looking through the Lucario character thread for DI advice on his combos.

I have a few questions on this quote:

What angle does Lucario normally hit at and why would you DI up and away? I ask this cause my understanding of DI (not including SDI or ASDI) is that holding the joystick perpendicular to the angle would change the knockback direction the most at 18 degrees (which could be more than you want), and that the more parallel you are to their knockback direction, the less you adjust the angle. So I'm asking this cause most moves hit at around 45-60 degrees and since you want to get to the ground asap in combos from most characters, you DI down and away, not up and away. I thought it might be different for dealing with Lucario, but my guess was going to be to DI up and towards him in a combo, or maybe just up... would up and away change the direction at all?

Also you can shield grab the Lucario's down b in it's start up??? If that's what you meant, that's good too know.

Edit: Nvm... I think I misunderstood. DI so you get launched up and away. My bad

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

side b should have some kinda easter egg taunt if you land it on the air like wolfs flash or the knee. i mean seriously by landing a side b, off stage at that, youve earned it.

 

[Zoa]

Has anyone tried to set up Spirit Bomb/Genkidama with a canceled first hit of Shoryuken? I find that it's an extremely reliable KO option after a C stick Shoryuken first hit cancel as the opponent will get caught in the overhead hitbox of Spirit Bomb. The initial release of Spirit Bomb also seems to have more significant knockback.

 

[DKMikey]

Has anyone tried to set up Spirit Bomb/Genkidama with a canceled first hit of Shoryuken? I find that it's an extremely reliable KO option after a C stick Shoryuken first hit cancel as the opponent will get caught in the overhead hitbox of Spirit Bomb. The initial release of Spirit Bomb also seems to have more significant knockback.

Too much terminology. I'm guessing you mean up smash, jump immediately, then aura bomb?

 

[Zoa]

Too much terminology. I'm guessing you mean up smash, jump immediately, then aura bomb?

Up smash first hit immediately canceled into B + A.

 

[DKMikey]

Up smash first hit immediately canceled into B + A.

This is genius. Thanks.

 

[Zoa]

This is genius. Thanks.

Welcome.

 

[Mera Mera]

Hey I don't use Lucario but asking for a friend who does but is too lazy to ask. How does the ledge snap on his up B work? He can't seem to get it consistently. Both coming from on stage to edge hog and trying to get back. Obviously if spaced right he'll get it but we've noticed that it sometimes snaps to the ledge early sometimes. Is there any trick to it?

 

[bec]

@ Mera Mera what i've found is snapping is very hard at any angle lower than a -45 from the ledge. to snap for recovery it is easiest for me to aim a little below the ledge but not much below it and he should snap to it.
for edge hogging, that is tricky but it is my favourite way to edge hog because of how quick it is and how consistently i get it. i've only killed myself a couple times in friendlies since getting it down consistently. input the up b and swing the control stick down to the notch just right (for ledges on the right) or left (ledges on the left) of 6 o'clock is how i do it. tell your friend to practise it A LOT in training before trying to do it in a match. it took me a while to have it down super consistently.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

im absolutely positive that you can make a viable, unique lucario combo by throwing a wavebird controller down some stairs at this point

 

[#HBC | Joker]

What are some good approach options for getting through projectiles? I figure downb canceling is probably the solution, but I dunno quite what to do once I get in there. downb-cancel>jab>jab>ftilt>fsmash is something I'm toying with, but I get crouch cancelled a lot, and it's disheartening. Crouch canceling, in general, tends to ruin me, especially when I go for my bread n butter of DA>utilt>usmash>upb-cancel>nair. Got any more mixups for me? I need to work on some execution, because I'm always dsmashing when I want to fsmash, for some reason, and having some more combos to practice would make doing drills not so boring.

 

[Darkgun]

What are some good approach options for getting through projectiles? I figure downb canceling is probably the solution, but I dunno quite what to do once I get in there. downb-cancel>jab>jab>ftilt>fsmash is something I'm toying with, but I get crouch cancelled a lot, and it's disheartening. Crouch canceling, in general, tends to ruin me, especially when I go for my bread n butter of DA>utilt>usmash>upb-cancel>nair. Got any more mixups for me? I need to work on some execution, because I'm always dsmashing when I want to fsmash, for some reason, and having some more combos to practice would make doing drills not so boring.

Why not approach projectiles by using projectiles? Aura Sphere, while clearly not an ideal projectile (when compared to something like Mario's fireballs or Samus's Super Missiles), allows Lucario to control space, challenge projectiles, and pressure your opponent into doing things other than zoning you off with their own range. Alternatively, you could always just strike projectiles from the air with a well spaced fair, since connecting with a projectile using an aerial allows Lucario to OHC to special. Oh, and crawling. Crawling works pretty well, actually. Save DT and DTC for surprise mixups, and space them such that you can choose between a crossing up your opponent or not.

CCing is a pretty decent counter to plenty of Lucario, but dtilt is the perfect response: it comes out fast, pops opponents up at a pretty early percent if sweetspot, and can be followed up on relatively consistently if you dtilt>ASC.

Actually, if you happen to be looking for fancier stuff, have a look at what you can make out of usmash(1st)>ASC. Depending on your opponent's DI, it is usually possible to follow up with an aerial or another usmash. Hmm... heck, just mix ASC into anything and see what you get. Thing gives ya loads of options.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

How is he in doubles?

 

[bec]

lucario is AMAZING in doubles. you can use aura liberally and not have to worry, since there are literally three things to hit to get aura (so accidentally hitting your teammate isnt a 100% bad thing). if your teammate is savvy and quick on their feet you can throw out aura bombs and give them good kill set-ups. he has a choice recovery and i've lived to 200%+ in matches before. play him simpler than you would in singles, dont try the super flashy combos. get damage and stay alive, which he's pretty good at doing.

lucario is also amazing in the 2v1 because he is fast and DT can be used to be evasive as hell. in the last video i have linked i lasted almost a full minute in the 2v1 and i think i would have gotten at least one kill but in my semi-panicked state i missed inputs.

i have a bunch of videos from tourneys you can check out too. the first few videos here are me and my static partner in doubles, some are better than others and ive gotten better since then. and here are some videos of me and a friend teaming when abstract was unable to attend the tourney. aand here's one from my most recent tourney that i think we did well in considering the circumstances (abstract was pretty sick and we were playing, well, sethlon and utdzac). once my friend uploads some of the videos we got at a local bi-weekly last friday i'll post them too, we got some great footage and ended up placing first.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Off the top of my head, I can imagine a well placed aerial sideb setting up free kill opportunities for a teammate on the ground.

With Lucario's biggest weakness being his inability to force his way in on opponents, being able to sit back, play support, and just punish the hell out of opponents with big combos seems like it'd be a joy. Lucario has all kinds of tools that make him really scary when his teammate is setting him up to succeed. Even if you're the one playing offense, having a teammate to mitigate the punishes you eat for not mixing up properly makes life that much easier as well.

 

[Giygacoal]

Some people are saying Lucario shouldn't be rushdown, and is still best as a punish character. What do you guys think?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

I think that pretty accurately describes him. He's capable of rushing down, but you have to mix them up in order to not get punished just for trying. The payoff is that if you're successful, you're going to do a lot more damage than they will, so you can afford to make some mistakes and stay out ahead.