Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[nimigoha]

aMSA straight up has the best Lucario. Please can someone find me videos of a better one so I can watch those. Or this is the best Lucario there. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC1HF_YmkC8znqpCHBDKB30A

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I'd honestly say that Frozen as of right now is the best Lucario out there. That is just a personal opinion though.

 

[nimigoha]

Noted. I'll check him out more tomorrow.

Also I've been trying recently to just jump at an opponent over the edge to FP them, but I can't get the timing at all. I keep missing and going past them, usually SDing. Does the grab hitbox come out fairly late in the air?

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I find that Force Palming can be so risky in those situations and it just better to throw out an aerial and then up B back to the ledge. I have no idea though about the grab "hitbox". Also, I noticed that aMSa does not use his smashes very much, even though they are sometimes guaranteed and would net him a kill.

 

[nimigoha]

That's fair enough. It's usually only when I want to style XD. Although I noticed aMSa setting it up with a dtilt a few times near the ledge, might give that a go.

He uses dsmash a fair amount. Especially from upB stall>ledgedash> DT>dsmash for surprising kills.

His opponents were no slouches either. Those are quality players.

 

[bec]

in my opinion, aMSa is good but not the best. his lucario is fairly basic (but solid), he just has strong fundamentals and is a smart player. given time i think he would be top three, but not at the moment. frozen and vanguard are both better, which comes from character knowledge, something i would imagine aMSa currently lacks but will gain with time. right now i see a lot of option selects he goes for that straight up whiff, dont pan out well or get him punished hard. so like i said, he is good but nowhere near top tier as of now

 

[Risky]

Vanguard is not better than aMSa.

 

[bec]

i disagree but you are completely entitled to your opinion. i think that with time aMSa will be better than vanguard but right now i wouldn't put him there

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I dunno, I've watched quite a bit of Vanguard and the fact that he never does too well at S@X doesn't help him. If you put aMSa at S@X he'd probably make it further than Vanguard. Not exactly direct evidence for aMSa being a 'better Lucario' but aMSa's combos are too good.

 

[bec]

thats why i think with time (and more results) aMSa would take a top lucario spot. right now, to me, it feels like its his strong fundamentals that make him good but having a more intimate understanding of the character will put him in a top spot

 

[Risky]

This is a classic discussion of "who has the best X". You could say Mango has the better Falcon than Hax because he's a better player, but Hax may have more matchup knowledge. I have seen Vanguard play and most of his game is DA -> Fsmash almost automatically every time. I have learned 2 things that I can apply from watching aMSa. I haven't learned anything from watching Vanguard (and this was when I first picked up Lucario).

The level of competition is also far higher. You could take any of the top 4 from those set of vids and they'd wreck everyone at S@X. They would have wrecked NSA2 as well. That was such a disappointment to watch a random melee player sign up and win. That's a rant for another time.

 

[nimigoha]

I don't even think Vanguard has better character knowledge, despite being like 'the PMBR Lucario guy'.

He looks awkward playing Lucario, like he's unsure how to approach. And his combos are usually simple 2 cancel strings. He would never pull off something like this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?list=...feature=player_detailpage&v=7M18eh8aYu4#t=350) for example.

aMSa seems super comfortable as Lucario. His ASC off aerials is on point.

 

[KhanYe]

I think Vanguard, with all due respect, is not that great of a Lucario player. He's obviously good and he probs has the most experience with the character, but the eye test says that aMSa and Frozen have much more character knowledge and know how to go further with their combo strings. Vanguard will probably advance with time as well, and aMSa's no stranger to figuring out characters who people haven't totally cracked either. I believe aMSa would do better in results with Lucario than Vanguard. That being said, I really hope he sticks to Yoshi because his Yoshi is absurdly fun to watch.

P.S. If anyone in the PMBR could explain Lucario's shield size, that'd be superb. He has zero OOS options and with his ridiculously small shield size, he's terrible at handling pressure besides trying to Double Team.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Frozen is faster then amsa in some aspects with jsut as good combos, but doesnt mess up as much. The only thing that really helps amsa look better then frozen is his ASC, I think frozen is the best overall.

Also, I totally agree with his shield size, it is pretty bad right now. Like you said, not that great of out of shield options plus a small shield size, ready to get poked at maximum even. This just makes it so you probably shouldnt shield as lucario, which is fine but I wouldnt mind buffs to that area

Lucario Match Up Survey

 

[KhanYe]

Frozen is probs the best, I'm coming for his ass tho ;] I think Vanguard goes in too deep with his fsmashes, which leave him vunerable. Lucario is full of safe options and he goes balls deep with dash attack -> ftilt -> fsmash -> DT, and I'm preeeeetty sure you can buffer a shield in the middle of that string.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

@ Ali Baba 177 , I answered the survey with my uninformed opinion

Also no offense to Vanguard, but he plays auto pilot and because of that, his combo strings aren't very long or effective

 

[nimigoha]

So guys I've been playing around with low-percent combos. I've learned some stuff by fiddling around by myself which I think is an important thing for me to understand the character.

My main problems are Mario and Ganondorf, those are my friend's mains and I have trouble with both. So all the stuff has been on them but I'm eventually going to try with every character.

The DA-FTilt-FP is interesting because of the timing of the second cancel. If you cancel into FP early enough, you keep the FTilt momentum. If you cancel too late, you'll hit them with the pulse instead of the grab.

And using DT after hitting opponent forward at low percent puts you behind them, putting you in a much better position than them. I've come up with a preliminary 'start combo' that works on both Mario and Ganondorf, and I'll be trying it in matches to see how much DI affects it. But I go DA-FTilt-DT to behind them, then in the opposite way go DA-FTilt-FP and then they're usually in range for a UTilt followup. From here DI really affects things.

Also if you're close to the ledge and at low percents, DA-FTilt-FP-FAir-AerialAuraFP is just the easiest kill against someone with bad DI.

Not sure if coming up with these combo strings is the right way to play the character because so much affects what happens, but I feel like if I don't do this I'm going in blind.

I'm also going to compile some list that shows what percent a character will die from the middle of each stage after a grounded AuraFP. Mario and Ganondorf die under 110% on FD.

You guys probably know a lot of this but I just wanted to share.

 

[bec]

Mario is hard to combo for me but ganon feels like combo bait sometimes. gFP to aFP worked on my friend once around 80%.

as for testing auraFP kill percentages remember that DI plays a huuuuuge role. DI wrong and its am instakill. DI right and they livin

 

[nimigoha]

Yup, I know DI is big. I'll try to get some tests done to see what percentage they live to with DI.

Also I've been trying to wrap my head around the shield pressure.

Is there any string out of DA that is 100% safe on shield?

What about 100% other than Fox's Shine OOS.

If my opponent is waiting for me to approach, he expects DA so I get shield grabbed, is it better to run up and FP him immediately, or is there a string out of DA that will guarantee me not getting grabbed?

My friend just shield grabs a lot (I do as well) but I want to use Lucario to avoid that.

Would running at them and DT behind their shield into a string work well? I assume that the advantage would make it too slow to shield drop and pivot grab in the middle of a string.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Yup, I know DI is big. I'll try to get some tests done to see what percentage they live to with DI.

Also I've been trying to wrap my head around the shield pressure.

Is there any string out of DA that is 100% safe on shield?

What about 100% other than Fox's Shine OOS.

If my opponent is waiting for me to approach, he expects DA so I get shield grabbed, is it better to run up and FP him immediately, or is there a string out of DA that will guarantee me not getting grabbed?

My friend just shield grabs a lot (I do as well) but I want to use Lucario to avoid that.

Would running at them and DT behind their shield into a string work well? I assume that the advantage would make it too slow to shield drop and pivot grab in the middle of a string.

Your opponent shouldnt be waiting for you to approach. You should be ASC and shooting auras so he has some pressure, using downb, wavedashing, and definitely dash dancing. Then DA at the right moment or do different approaches, fair, dair, down b cancel.
That being said, sometimes it is predictable and they are ready to shield grab; you can OHC DA into FP which grabs them. You can down b to the other side of them and reset or dsmash or something. Or if they arent quick enough or youre fast enough plus you know they will grab you; cancel the DA into a jab, then spot dodge their grab and get a free move on them.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah I know that DA shouldn't be my only approach. I've recently been trying out some Fair approaches similar to Marth and they've been going well.

My main question is what's the absolute safest way to either snatch someone out of a shield or DT away/behind without any chance of getting grabbed. I'm looking for a sequence that is safe on shield with regards to OHC advantage. If there's no 100% safe on shield pressure option, I'd love to know the next best thing.

Also has anyone else experienced the slide from canceling FTilt-FP at the right time? Not sure if the difference is a known thing.

 

[bec]

dair cancelled to FP is fairly reliable on shield. dair, nair and fair are all decent approach option as well.

i love that little slide, it looks super slick and is fairly easy to time right. i do not know the exact timing of it though, i play kind of intuitively so its hard to say for sure. i get it from DA > ftilt > FP and from jab > jab > ftilt > FP a lot

 

[Risky]

DA -> Ftilt -> FP is a bnb that I use often. The timing on every OHC of Lucario if you want it to be tight, is canceling immediately when the move hits them. If you aren't getting the forward momentum from the Ftilt then you aren't canceling it fast enough - or you aren't hitting them early enough with the Ftilt to carry the momentum.

Your on shield options require you to condition your opponent and make them want to shield, or be afraid of certain OOS options. You should very rarely allow them to shieldgrab you. Try spacing your DA's a little bit. If spaced, DA -> Dtilt -> Usmash if you think you can combo them, Fsmash if you want to space on their shield even further. Delaying the Dtilt slightly can completely blow them up if they try to shieldgrab. If you punish them for trying to shieldgrab a couple times then they will hesitate if you go for a less safe string, such as Ftilt -> FP, or more likely not know that it's unsafe at all. DA -> DT -> Dsmash on the back of their shield is pretty scary. Simple stuff like DA -> Aura Sphere is effective as well.

 

[bec]

that reminds me, something my friend suggested was run past their shield and dsmash then DT away. but that won't work all the time for obvious reasons

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Does anyone use B-Reversed Double Teams? It seems pretty ****in' safe and I don't think I've ever seen it before

Just curious

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

for mixups and playing with their shields and heads yeah, touch and go.
that smashgod guy does it in his vids in the vid thread

 

[BFlake]

I caught a little of aMSa streaming some PM with some other players and showing some fancy wall jump b-reverse ASC that is pretty risky but at the right time you can jump from the wall b-reverse ASC and land on the stage quite fast maybe it's just fancy but I wanted to share that.

 

[KhanYe]

If a Mario is CC dsmashing, can you get through DA->ftilt->FP? I know Mario's CC dsmash takes a ridiculously little amount of frames.

 

[Risky]

If a Mario is CC dsmashing, can you get through DA->ftilt->FP? I know Mario's CC dsmash takes a ridiculously little amount of frames.

No. Most of the cast can CC that combo. Try dtilt instead, or work a Usmash in there as they can both blow them up if they're CC'ing.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Seems as though aMSa is spending some more time in Lucario and I think Frozen said he wanted to start playing mewtwo more then Lucario, so I guess aMSa might be the generally accepted best now even though he has only been playing for a short while. I think there may be some that make better character decisions and have better combos and kills, but aMSas are definitely up there and he has top tech skill.

I also went to my first tournament on Saturday and I feel that I could probably place and start showing some more lucario soon too, I just had the first tourny jitters :/

 

[nimigoha]

Have you guys seen this?

Amsa's latest Lucario discovery - [0:16]

Looks like *maybe* useful if you can get near a wall.

 

[bec]

after watching more stuff i think amsa is top three but frozen is still better. too bad froz said he was going to switch.

lmao at that video tho. looks highly situational, maybe if you up-b into the wall, cancel, then begin the climb? i'll have to try it.

 

[BFlake]

I've been trying some stuff out with the Wall Jump B-reverse ASC you can do the technique and end up grabbing the ledge when in the right position but that is definitely less safe than sweet-spot upB, or you can fall from the ledge and come up with it (landing on the stage) charging the sphere, letting it loose, or canceling before landing throwing an aerial out before landing on the stage (like a ledge attack) also less safe than a standard ledge attack like when edge guarding someone who will recover on stage. Haven't been able to try it in a match but will probably later today.

 

[nimigoha]

Guys do you think Lucario can deal with Mario? I want to make my Lucario my main but he keeps losing to Mario and I revert to Lucas/Fox/Sheik.

1) How should I deal with fireballs? Swat them? DT through? AS them?

2) How should I get away from his insane juggles? My friend will just grab>dthrow>utilt>utilt>utilt>uair>uair>fair. I've tried CCing Mario but I keep getting grabbed out of it.

3) How can I cover his recovery?

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Guys do you think Lucario can deal with Mario? I want to make my Lucario my main but he keeps losing to Mario and I revert to Lucas/Fox/Sheik.

1) How should I deal with fireballs? Swat them? DT through? AS them?

2) How should I get away from his insane juggles? My friend will just grab>dthrow>utilt>utilt>utilt>uair>uair>fair. I've tried CCing Mario but I keep getting grabbed out of it.

3) How can I cover his recovery?

This is a game of MU's and Mario is just not a good MU for Lucario, definitely not impossible. Itd probably be smarter to take on a secondary that you feel handles characters you dont like to face with lucario easier. I just lost to a Mario in tournament, but I kinda like the challenge and it feels like I just need to play a little different style lucario, more patient and tactful, I think this also aids in my overall game and skill.

Fire balls wreck me a lot so my advice probably sucks.
For juggles try to jump out of them or Dair, this can hit him and then lead into your own combo. Plus if you are able to do this he will be more nervous about juggling and probably wont try it for as long.
His recovery is too good, dont try to go out and get him, just try to read his patterns, for instance if he always does his cape at a certain point, then go to where you usually go then wavedash back as he capes and smash him to death Just gotta try to read his recovery, but again it is very good and versatile so ya.

 

[KhanYe]

Changing my mind, aMSa probs has the best Lucario.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

this new metagame with its constant evolution is so similar to an arms race its insane. its like every character is a country and they're all stockpiling their arsenals to defeat each other, and when one country makes a breakthrough the others rush to counter it with weapons and strategies of their own. for a long time lucario slipped under the radar as a "gimmicky" "wack" "********" character who people dismissed as cheap and didnt put time into learning ways around him and how to beat him. now with this amsa guy along with others pushing this character to the forefront with combos and techniques eventually other countries are going to put time into finding character unique ways to bring him down. it reminds me of what gordon says at the end of batman begins.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

So I dont know why I have never thought of this before, but do you guys know if you can cancel on clank? I would try it but I cant at the moment and its stuck on my mind lol

 

[KhanYe]

So I dont know why I have never thought of this before, but do you guys know if you can cancel on clank? I would try it but I cant at the moment and its stuck on my mind lol

No you can't. You can cancel on shield, but clank just brings you back to neutral. Also, Lucario isn't good enough in a lot of matchups to be up there with the best. I feel like I need a secondary for Marth, Ivy, Mario, Squirtle, etc.

 

[AkashSky]

No you can't. You can cancel on shield, but clank just brings you back to neutral. Also, Lucario isn't good enough in a lot of matchups to be up there with the best. I feel like I need a secondary for Marth, Ivy, Mario, Squirtle, etc.

what about marth makes it a bad matchup? I am of the oppinion that lucario has the advantage or its neutral.