Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[Giygacoal]

I suppose. Ryu in SF4 is meant to be more of a mixed character than a full rushdown or defensive (if I'm not mistaken), so it would be appropriate if Lucario ends up fitting the same way.

 

[nimigoha]

Why are smashboards threads so dead. I want to see discussion on characters and there's always massive dry spells.

 

[bec]

Why are smashboards threads so dead. I want to see discussion on characters and there's always massive dry spells.

so start a discussion! theres lots of things to talk about but saying something like this doesnt bring up any of them lol

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

When would one use Lucario's forward tilt? I always use down-tilt and up-tilt rather than forward tilt and skipping straight to his smashes also seems better than using forward tilt

 

[bec]

i don't use it a lot but i like it in combos. jab > ftilt > smash or something of that sort. it's not aaas useful as his other tilts but i think??? it has lower knockback so if that's true (tbh i have not tested it at all oops) it could be used to rack up damage while keeping the opponent close at higher percentages

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Also, quite a couple of times, I say Frozen doing a full hop fair and cancelling it into an aerial spirit bomb. Is this a legit combo and if so, at what percents and cast does it work on?

Like in 4:07
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YYoJt1JYexQ

 

[bec]

that looks like it would work best at lower percentages as the knockback increases and sends them up and away the more damage they have. as for if it's legit/guaranteed (probably at low percentages since it comes out really quickly relatively speaking) and who it would work on i'm not sure, looks like something we'd have to test out quite a bit

the cool thing about lucario though is so much stuff is a legit combo as long as its not ludicrously super-theory-craft-land material hehe

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

it'd be super cool if there was a yes/no list for combos for this guy and at what percents they fail. like down air +force palm, up smash aura bomb, up smash>n-air cancelled up b and all the other wicked combos he can do. just for definitive reference but thats asking alot of anyone to make

 

[Darkgun]

@ Fish&Herbs19 , Normally, especially at higher percentages, fair>AB would probably be incredibly DI dependant. In the video, from what I can see, Salem DI'd down+away. I am unsure if the move would have linked off an up+forward DI (though in this case, I suspect it would have). The issue with this particular string is that it is dependent upon a bunch of variables (if the opponent had been playing a fast faller for example, AB would have missed (unless they DI'd up+forward). This does, however, make for an awesome punish for failing to DI, as from what I can see, at lower percentages, different DI will yield different results for the opponent. Zelda DI'd up? fair>ASC>nair>ES/DT. Fox DI'd down+away? fair>DT and punish the tech or DTC>utilt and restart the combo. With all that in mind... I think I'm going to play with this when I practice today and at tournament this Sunday.

The only problem with making a list of combos links like that is that, aside from it being really dependent upon a bunch of different variables (most notably DI and percent), would be that it would be unbelievably long. Honestly, I would be inclined to say that a reference of proper responses to different DI of specific moves would help more, but even then that'd be a handful, plus it would fall short of the fact that Lucario really only seems to be limited by the player's response time and situational imagination.

On an unrelated note, and I may be jumping the gun a bit, but is it too early to talk about matchups? I've always wondered what folks thought about the matches against other characters. I slapped down a (albeit 100% theory-crafted) matchup explanation of Marth a few pages back here in the Discussion thread, but I am curious as to what other folks think of other matchups. Captain Falcon, for example, or Ness! Or Bowser[/sofree].

 

[Giygacoal]

I think Lucario has trouble with floaties and Captain Falcon. Falcon's dash dance is too good. It's hard to close in on him.

 

[~Frozen~]

I think Lucario's more difficult matchups stem from the defensive options that character has rather than their fall speed class.

For example, Squirtle is floaty but lacks a very threatening OoS option/range to try and wall you out. While GnW can rely on his UpB OoS and lingering disjointed hitboxes to make neutral a living hell for Lucario.

There's obviously a lot more to those two matchups and I'm not saying we win vs Squirtle or lose to GnW, but I feel Lucario has more than enough options to use vs any fall speed class in combos.

In regards to matchups, I made a very brief rundown on the spacies on the SoCal FB page:
spacies: surprisingly enough, I find it can be difficult to combo them at low %'s. Uthrow sets up for tech chases at early %'s or kills later on. Aura spheres are next to useless vs Falco in neutral, but they're decent vs Fox and Wolf at getting them to change position, hopefully a disadvantageous one. I try not to focus on damage output here, but rather positioning in combos; an offstage spacie is an easy Fair gimp. Also, I would highly recommend against shielding vs Fox and Falco as their Dairs will shield poke Lucario easily, even with a full shield due to it not covering him fully as seen here: http://i987.photobucket.com/.../LucarioFullShield...

I'll obviously have to go more in-depth later (especially when delving into the specific nuances of Fox, Falco, and Wolf), but there's a start. Also, footstool Dair (w/ optional SideB) gives us a reliable way to gimp Yoshi at early %'s!

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Here is my opinion on matchups:

Lucario vs Metaknight:
I personally like this matchup. I feel like Lucario has a good tech-chasing game on Metaknight, he can convert hits into kills pretty easily since Metaknight isn't a very heavy character (Up-throw>Nair/Bair at around 105%?). I also don't think that Metaknight can gimp Lucario very easily because of various recovery mixups etc. Lucario can also limit Metaknight with Aura Spheres and tack on a little bit of damage. The hardest part with Lucario is always getting that one hit in though but other than having a little bit of trouble in the neutral game (Aura Spheres help alleviate this problem), I'd say this matchup is relatively even if not slightly in Lucario's favor.

Lucario vs Pit:
I hate this matchup with a passion... -___-

Lucario vs Falcon:
This is a fun matchup which really depends on how many quick kills Lucario gets. Captain Falcon combos really hard and puts a beating on Lucario in the neutral game, but edgeguarding Falcon isn't very difficult, and I feel that combo-ing Falcon isn't very tough either. I have to give this matchup to Falcon though because he can kill earlier: combo>knee, and because he can get the first hit in more easily than we can. I'd say 60-40 Falcon's favor?

Lucario vs Spacies:
I'd give this matchup to the Spacies because they have amazing out of shield options, great pressure game, and surprisingly, they are quite difficult to combo in the early game (at least to me). This feels like a 65-35 matchup to me, although it definitely isn't impossible to gimp or combo the spacies to death. It just feels like their out of shield option is too strong, and they annihilate us in the neutral game.

 

[nimigoha]

Does anyone know if the PMBR has purposefully made Lucario's shield really crappy in order to make the character way more offence-based? I get shield-stabbed after like one hit, so I'm forced to dip out of shield really quickly. Would make the mirror really interesting...

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

You can move your shield around, so that you can more easily deal with the shield pressure (Shield DI). Then you can either buffer rolls or spotdodges to evade the pressure or grab/fair OoS so that you can punish them

 

[bec]

lucario's shield is really terrible though but moving it around would help. it's a hard habit (for me at least) to pick up and i severely wish his shield was better, even if not by a lot.

once i got shield poked by two mario fireballs :'((


as for MUs i actually really like the spacie MU, especially against wolf. i find sticking to quick short combos in early percents and also using grabs more seems to help but it certainly doesnt feel like the MU is in lucario's favour as spacies do control the neutral game and his approach options are limited.
my most hated ever would be lucario v link. link's hella projectiles are just torture and make for a really hard time for me.

 

[Risky]

When would one use Lucario's forward tilt? I always use down-tilt and up-tilt rather than forward tilt and skipping straight to his smashes also seems better than using forward tilt

His Ftilt is an excellent linker and good in shield pressure strings. If you cancel it early enough you get the momentum while moving forward and doing your next attack. DA -> Ftilt -> Force Palm is a bread and butter combo for me, and leads to a lot of followup at all %'s

 

[nimigoha]

When attacking a shield, do you think it's a good idea to make the next link FP?

Like I DA someone and they shield, should I try and rip them out of it ASAP or tilt them before I FP, or even DT away?

 

[~Frozen~]

Dash Attack->Force Palm can be spotdodged/rolled away from. It might even be punishable by Bowser/GnW/Samus/any other chars with great OoS options.

Use it sparingly, and always try to mixup your shield pressure game to keep them guessing. A lot of Lucario players I see telegraph their shield pressure pretty badly and when you know what to expect, it's much easier to punish it.

 

[nimigoha]

Dash Attack->Force Palm can be spotdodged/rolled away from. It might even be punishable by Bowser/GnW/Samus/any other chars with great OoS options.

Use it sparingly, and always try to mixup your shield pressure game to keep them guessing. A lot of Lucario players I see telegraph their shield pressure pretty badly and when you know what to expect, it's much easier to punish it.

Does DA>xtilt>FP produce any more shield stun or is it just as easy to escape?

I'm new to competitive smash as of 5 months ago, and have only recently been seriously incorporating DD/WD into my game naturally. I'm getting a lot more confident with my mixup ability, and I'll try to transfer that into my combos.

 

[~Frozen~]

It messes up the timing opponents have if they plan on punishing the DA in between, but iirc it won't do much to stop a buffered roll. If you predict that, try using DT after the Dash attack.

 

[Nail.exe]

I was messing around against level 3 bots today and I found something I thought was interesting-

When I get a space animal to the edge at low percents (in this scenario I'm instage relative to him with my usual Lucario swagger) I've found that that d-throw leads pretty reliably to an AFP gimp. Does this work on people? Is this a likely / unlikely scenario at low percents? Am I simply insane?

None of my friends play any fastfallers worth a poffin so I can't really test this out on people, unfortunately, so I'd really appreciate some input.

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

i think its a huge luck/di factor involved. a couple of times i managed to nail a "walk-off" force palm on a variety of characters.
is it walk off or dropzone? i've no clue

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Today I was trying to play Lucario against friends at my house, and even though I felt kind of warmed up, I just wasn't converting anything. I was missing so many cancels, and my follow up chains weren't very consistent at all. So I just switched . I find that Lucario is the hardest character to be really consistent with. Do you guys feel the same way? Also, how do you warm up with Lucario so that you don't mess up any tech skill/cancels.?

 

[nimigoha]

Today I was trying to play Lucario against friends at my house, and even though I felt kind of warmed up, I just wasn't converting anything. I was missing so many cancels, and my follow up chains weren't very consistent at all. So I just switched . I find that Lucario is the hardest character to be really consistent with. Do you guys feel the same way? Also, how do you warm up with Lucario so that you don't mess up any tech skill/cancels.?

It gets frustrating when I'm not warmed up and mashing buttons works better than a sequence I plan :/

And he seems like one of the most technical characters. Even things that are APM intensive like drillshines are somewhat the same each time, but there are so many sequences to practice timing on. Plus DI.

 

[Risky]

When I get a space animal to the edge at low percents (in this scenario I'm instage relative to him with my usual Lucario swagger) I've found that that d-throw leads pretty reliably to an AFP gimp. Does this work on people? Is this a likely / unlikely scenario at low percents? Am I simply insane?

None of my friends play any fastfallers worth a poffin so I can't really test this out on people, unfortunately, so I'd really appreciate some input.

This is entirely a thing. I've literally killed my friend's Lucas with Aerial FP(Empowered) -> Grounded FP -> Aerial FP, and it spiked him to his death at 40%. It's very scary near the edge at low % against Lucario. If an opponent is standing next to the edge and you get an AFP facing away from the stage, you can empower it and spike them off the side. Combos like these are really easy on bigger characters since the AFP is much easier to land.

 

[bec]

Today I was trying to play Lucario against friends at my house, and even though I felt kind of warmed up, I just wasn't converting anything. I was missing so many cancels, and my follow up chains weren't very consistent at all. So I just switched . I find that Lucario is the hardest character to be really consistent with. Do you guys feel the same way? Also, how do you warm up with Lucario so that you don't mess up any tech skill/cancels.?

this normally only happens to me when i switch from a CRT/no lag TV to a laggy TV, was that by any chance an issue?
and i usually just spam techs as either lucario or fox, my secondary, to get my hands warmed up if i feel i need it. waveland, wavedash, waveshine (as fox), do some pointless cancels with lucario, that kinda stuff.


i got a grounded FP > aerial FP KO on my friends ganon once at around 80%, but haven't gotten many at lower percentages yet.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Just wondering if this is possible. Can you use a up B to chase off stage, use a charge once you hit them in order to cancel into a nair, and cancel the nair into an up B?? This probably does not work, but it would be pretty funny and awesome if it did.

 

[nimigoha]

Just wondering if this is possible. Can you use a up B to chase off stage, use a charge once you hit them in order to cancel into a nair, and cancel the nair into an up B?? This probably does not work, but it would be pretty funny and awesome if it did.

Yup, that should work.

 

[AkashSky]

Just wondering if this is possible. Can you use a up B to chase off stage, use a charge once you hit them in order to cancel into a nair, and cancel the nair into an up B?? This probably does not work, but it would be pretty funny and awesome if it did.

Not only is this possible, but if you don't use your first jump when you extremespeed off the stage, you can extremespeed back after you've canceled it so if you have an aura charge its a pretty safe maneuver.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

How to deal with sword users? I know spacing is key, but any other techniques? I wish lucarios ball had less end lag it could be used as an approach/spam/retreat/morethingsto

 

[AkashSky]

How to deal with sword users? I know spacing is key, but any other techniques? I wish lucarios ball had less end lag it could be used as an approach/spam/retreat/morethingsto

One thing I've been experimenting with is using fair kinda like marth's fair and doing it in a retreating manner, so a backwards momentum fair. Since if you L-cancel , this move should have little lag so you can use it to keep them away from you. My problem is that I havnot been able to L-cancel more then 30% of the time as of late so I need to work on mechanics. Also, if you hit the fair on their shield, you can cancel into auraphere and shoot it at them if u hav it charged, if not you can aurasphere cancel which I think is better then L cancel.

 

[Bamboo]

How to deal with sword users? I know spacing is key, but any other techniques? I wish lucarios ball had less end lag it could be used as an approach/spam/retreat/morethingsto

That would be amazing tbh

 

[ViewtifulHoe242]

what do you people think about if grounded double team's animation was replaced with akuma's ashura senku.
i think it would be cool as hell and it's all i think about when i see the current double team.

 

[Gadiel_VaStar]

What are the basics to this character? I'm thinking of using Lucario & Link tomorrow for a regional. It will be a PM regional in AL, and I know I'm super late, but what are some of the basic ATs I should know in general for PM & for Lucario? I'm new to PM.

 

[Darkgun]

What are the basics to this character? I'm thinking of using Lucario & Link tomorrow for a regional. It will be a PM regional in AL, and I know I'm super late, but what are some of the basic ATs I should know in general for PM & for Lucario? I'm new to PM.

ATs? I posted a character specific tech skill brief that might be worth checking out. If you're looking for something to practice, though, I would suggest learning how to Aura Sphere Cancel, as it opens up new possibilities across the board with the character. Additionally, there is quite a bit of free damage to be had from Force Palm and Aerial Force Palm, so that is something to consider as well, though probably not as easy to learn or implement as ASC.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I would love it if you guys could take some time and fill out this survey below. It is a survey for the MUs of Lucario, I would post the results after some time and we can hopefully talk more on where Lucario stands.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/9PRZVMD

 

[Giygacoal]

I think Squirtle is one of Lucario's worst matchups.

 

[Zoa]

Since Extremehogging is still in P:M, I tried out what you can do by canceling it before grabbing the ledge. You can do some pretty wicked things. Dair, nair, dair -> FP, etc. Lucario can do a lot more than I thought when it comes to edgeguarding. o.0

 

[Bamboo]

Has everyone seen aMSa's Lucario?

 

[Giygacoal]

Has everyone seen aMSa's Lucario?

Nope. Better look that up when I have time.