Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[Fish&Herbs19]

Depends on how good the marth is at walling Lucario out and how good the Lucario is at using his cancels to get the hit.

 

[KhanYe]

if you think marth is a neutral matchup, you've yet to play a good marth. the problem with lucario is he can't get in on characters who can space you out, i.e. link, marth, etc. marth is a character that is VERY difficult to get in on. only good thing about the matchup is that marth is pretty easily gimped.

 

[Risky]

No you can't. You can cancel on shield, but clank just brings you back to neutral. Also, Lucario isn't good enough in a lot of matchups to be up there with the best. I feel like I need a secondary for Marth, Ivy, Mario, Squirtle, etc.

I've faced some good Marths and beaten them, but they admittedly did not know the matchup. He's super easy to combo and kill out. I haven't faced a good Mario or Squirtle yet but I imagined these two would be nightmare matchups for him. Mario can CC almost anything if you're not tight with your pressure and mash Nair out of combos. Squirtle is tiny with super armor on his isht, making combos difficult. His pressure isn't easy to punish either.

Ivy I think is fine for Lucario. You don't have to get in on her. Shadow Ball is super good in neutral and she's a good combo weight/size when you do get a hold of her. Bair may make things difficult but not at all impossible.

 

[KhanYe]

I've faced some good Marths and beaten them, but they admittedly did not know the matchup. He's super easy to combo and kill out. I haven't faced a good Mario or Squirtle yet but I imagined these two would be nightmare matchups for him. Mario can CC almost anything if you're not tight with your pressure and mash Nair out of combos. Squirtle is tiny with super armor on his isht, making combos difficult. His pressure isn't easy to punish either.

Ivy I think is fine for Lucario. You don't have to get in on her. Shadow Ball is super good in neutral and she's a good combo weight/size when you do get a hold of her. Bair may make things difficult but not at all impossible.

are you gonna be at smashing grounds this week? we'll run some friendlies man, i'm too pumped. admittedly, i haven't played a good marth in project m yet, but i'm going to this thursday and i'll be able to actually give first-hand experience on the matchup. hopefully they put videos up as well.

squirtle is anti-lucario. he exposes lucario's lack of sex kick so hard. mario also can get out of lucario combos really really really easily. ivy is a good weight, that's true. most people complain about link, but his weight is PERFECT for lucario so i don't mind the matchup.

 

[Risky]

I scrubbed out last week, lost two extremely close matches at 100%+ each. I'm going again this week and am always down for friendlies. I played AOI's Marth once and took it but I think I'm the only Lucario he's faced.

 

[KhanYe]

sounds good my man, this is my first competitive PM experience, so hopefully i don't choke lmao. i think my lucario could be up there though, i'll let you be the judge.

 

[Soniv]

sounds good my man, this is my first competitive PM experience, so hopefully i don't choke lmao. i think my lucario could be up there though, i'll let you be the judge.

Competition there was pretty decent last week.

Haven't decided if I want to try out my new Lucario this week

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

I honestly think Marth is a 50-50 matchup still, because Lucario does have the tools to get it and he can rack up some percent by throwing aura spheres. Mario is tough but playing against him is like playing against all projectile characters. Also, just bait out the nair and punish accordingly. I've never played against a squirtle with Lucario but imo, the biggest that one has to learn is punishing his side B

 

[KhanYe]

Competition there was pretty decent last week.

Haven't decided if I want to try out my new Lucario this week

who do you normally play? i NEED matchup experience with almost every character.

 

[Soniv]

who do you normally play? i NEED matchup experience with almost every character.

Olimar and Peach are my current characters of choice. I live out in West Springfield though, so Smashing Grounds is a bit of a haul and I don't really know anyone out here to play against regularly.

But I agree, I just need overall experience playing against everyone.

 

[KhanYe]

hahahah i need peach AND olimar mu experience so that's great. try and come out, it's my debut and you'll have a friend in me!

i'm still deciding on a smash tag. i'm thinking either #Hashtag, CPtrU, #Truuuuuuuu, or Khanye West.

 

[BFlake]

what about marth makes it a bad matchup? I am of the oppinion that lucario has the advantage or its neutral.

For what reasons do you think the Marth MU is neutral or in Lucario's favor?

 

[bec]

saying a matchup is in lucario's favour because he can combo them is kind of silly. lucario is made of combos. what makes or breaks a matchup is how easily he can get in and keep up a combo, not so much whether or not he can combo because, with a few exceptions, he has an amazing combo game (in general) if you know what you're doing. if a character can easily break a combo by throwing out a nair (cough mario/link) or nayru's love (ugh) then the matchup tends to fair in their favour. if a character can easily keep lucario out, especially with projectiles, it fairs in their favour. that's just my thoughts on lucario's MUs.

 

[Darkgun]

Taking the above into account, I would have to still say that the Lucario-Marth matchup is neutral, or at the worst 40-60. All the the walling options in the world don't really matter if you are out moved in neutral. That, coupled with Lucario having a projectile to soften up Marth's walling options and Marths lack of projectile to do the same means that, like always, Marth has to be super careful with spacing to deal with the pressure. Additionally, Marth is limited when under shield pressure to uSpecial, grab, and jump out of shield in many situations. Basically, the matchup requires patience to win, since one grab or DA on a aerial opponent can lead to massive damage.

Also, in response to something asked earlier about FP on shield, there is no inescapable way to link into FP on a shielded opponent, thanks to C-stick buffering. However, knowing whether or not your opponent uses this allows capitalization on OoS option the opponent chooses, so try it, remember the results, and prepare for the next time.

 

[nimigoha]

saying a matchup is in lucario's favour because he can combo them is kind of silly. lucario is made of combos. what makes or breaks a matchup is how easily he can get in and keep up a combo, not so much whether or not he can combo because, with a few exceptions, he has an amazing combo game (in general) if you know what you're doing. if a character can easily break a combo by throwing out a nair (cough mario/link) or nayru's love (ugh) then the matchup tends to fair in their favour. if a character can easily keep lucario out, especially with projectiles, it fairs in their favour. that's just my thoughts on lucario's MUs.

Also I think it's good to remember that just because Lucario has a hard time comboing someone (Luigi, Samus, Puff, Zelda, etc.) doesn't mean the matchup isn't in his favour. He still has many options against floaties.

But I do think it's safe to say that a lot of his favourable matchups would probably be against someone he can combo easily.

 

[Bane13]

Sometimes, being able to combo a character really can make the MU more favorable for Lucario, though. Marth, for example, is hard to get in on, but once Lucario does manage to get in, Marth just has an awful time. Marth is excellent combo weight and has no good combo breaking moves. I'd put that MU as neutral only because Lucario gets combo'd just as hard. That ability to keep combos going makes or breaks certain matchups.

Bec has it right imo. The two main aspects of Lucario's matchups are how easy he can get in to start a combo and how far he can take that combo. His worst matchups are always a combination of hard to get in on and hard to keep a combo going on. One thing I do want to add is how easy it is to land kill moves. Lucario's kill moves seem pretty bad in neutral for the most part, so you would normally rely on comboing into kill moves. There are some characters that make it extremely difficult, though.

 

[nimigoha]

How do you guys generally approach? I've been looking to refine the segmented portions of my game (approaching, baiting, cancelling, etc.) and I find myself relying on DA way too much and getting punished for it.

aMSa seems to do a lot of Fair approaches.

I forget who it was, but I saw a video of someone who used DT to approach a lot.

And then there's AS covering you on I guess all three of these.

What do you think will be best in most matchups? I know it's hard to generalize, but do you guys think Fair is usually a good approach?

 

[KhanYe]

Oh the biggest struggle is when the opponent is above 100%. Lucario struggles to kill in neutral, I love catching people off guard with moonwalk->bair/nair. **** is cash.

Don't get it twisted, dash attack is and will always be Lucario's best approach. Great mobility, and a lot of safe options out of it, even on shield. BUT, once your opponent starts reading it, it can become a bad time for you. Fair is most likely Lucario's 2nd best approach, along with aura spheres and double teams. Fair is a decent approach though, and most people don't know the Lucario matchup well enough to know what to do when you're pressuring with fairs.

 

[nimigoha]

The main problem I have with DA is that it's so laggy. If you miss, you're a sitting duck. I want to use Fair more because you're in the air and you can act out of it if you hit the ground.

 

[KhanYe]

So be careful about how you use it. If you're approaching, use fairs + DA, obviously don't rely on one solely at any given point. Feel out the match, if you're playing Ganon or DK, abuse them with DA pressure, if you're playing Marth or Link, be careful and use fairs to create space. Fair is really good though.

 

[bec]

DA is kind of both great and terrible because of how easily read and laggy it is. if it hits its gold but if it misses you are in big trouble. i would personally put it at the bottom of the "best approach options" list lmao

falling fair is like +6 on shield or something. DT is great to approach, and i've been trying ESC jab out with general success

edit oh and dair/nair has gotten some success as well

 

[Aidoony]

Lucario gonna be top tier.

Got 4th with him in my first P:M tournament

Bit more like mid tier

 

[bec]

yea lucario is like mid/low mid tier right now (in my most humble opinion)

 

[BFlake]

DA is kind of both great and terrible because of how easily read and laggy it is. if it hits its gold but if it misses you are in big trouble. i would personally put it at the bottom of the "best approach options" list lmao

falling fair is like +6 on shield or something. DT is great to approach, and i've been trying ESC jab out with general success

edit oh and dair/nair has gotten some success as well

You can also use grounded DTC smashes, tilts and jabs for a little boost to catch your opponent off guard and for tech-chasing

 

[Risky]

Lucario has such a ridiculous amount of potential, he is nowhere near low tier. I can see why some would say mid, but I think upper-high if not top 5 once good players start breaking him.

It's actually pretty hard to DA a Donkey Kong, since all they're ever doing is dashing away looking for a grab off a whiff. Camping with AS is much safer. You don't always have to be the one approaching. AS also makes it a lot harder for them to get away from your DA or whichever approach you opt for. If you SH it and shoot it at their head before you approach it severely limits their options.

 

[Giygacoal]

Lucario is solid. I just think he's mid tier because he has both good matchups and bad matchups.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Top tier is definitely reserved for characters that you can do well with, even if you have no freaking clue what you're doing. Like, just pick up Fox and spam usmash and shines, and see how well you do. Then see how that compares to someone trying to just spam random **** as Lucario.

Earlier versions (I think 2.1 was the one?) of Lucario, you could basically mash buttons and win. That character was top tier. I know how to play him way better than I did then, and I don't do nearly as well anymore.

 

[nimigoha]

Do you guys think against Mario (assuming you were stubborn enough to not switch to a secondary, like me most of the time) it would be a good idea to get close and stay close early, so you don't have to deal with fireballs?

 

[Bane13]

DA is kind of both great and terrible because of how easily read and laggy it is. if it hits its gold but if it misses you are in big trouble. i would personally put it at the bottom of the "best approach options" list lmao

DA can definitely be worth it as an on-reaction punish or for hard reads, imo. Used correctly, it can be a godsend. That said, if it does get baited, Lucario is definitely going to eat a combo. High risk, high reward, but you can minimize the risk by using it only when you can be confident they won't be able to make it whiff.

Do you guys think against Mario (assuming you were stubborn enough to not switch to a secondary, like me most of the time) it would be a good idea to get close and stay close early, so you don't have to deal with fireballs?

I think that's the most effective way to deal with zoners. Don't give them any breathing room, and you won't have to play around their neutral game. Just be wary of combo breakers like Mario/Samus/Link/etc. nair and whatnot.

 

[nimigoha]

Did any of you guys watch aMSa's stream last night? He was doing Lucario tech skill practice.

I asked him what Lucario's best approach options are in his opinion, and he said he really liked DA>FP at low percents, because people tend to CC early and an FTilt will get countered.

He said if he's using an Aura Charge for an approach, DTC>Jab>FP works really well. He showed it off a few times and it looked really fast.

Someone else in the chat showed him how to perfect moonwalk, which was something I'd never seen before.

He's a god at pivot walking.

Standing in teeter and doing SH Fair will autocancel, seems like a decent edgeguard.

And then he said he'll end the stream once he does the ASC reverse wall climb on Training Stage. Did it in 2 tries.

I'm telling you guys, subscribe to him and watch him next time.

 

[BFlake]

Top tier is definitely reserved for characters that you can do well with, even if you have no freaking clue what you're doing. Like, just pick up Fox and spam usmash and shines, and see how well you do. Then see how that compares to someone trying to just spam random **** as Lucario.

Earlier versions (I think 2.1 was the one?) of Lucario, you could basically mash buttons and win. That character was top tier. I know how to play him way better than I did then, and I don't do nearly as well anymore.

Foxes Shine and Usmash alone aren't what make fox and other top tiers top tier. there are tons of variables but mostly it's that they do a little bit of everything way better than any other character. They can camp, they can pressure they combo very well into kill moves they have great defense and mobility. Lucario definitely pales in comparison in one or more of those categories and I'm not listing everything.

I would definitely bet on him being upper mid or nearly middle of mid tier he just doesn't have enough favorable MU's and he's a high learning curve character. Fox and the other melee traditional characters are most like their melee counterparts so there is less knowledge they have to figure out cause their meta is so developed. I have hopes for lucario being almost high tier but unless he gets little minor buffs here and there, without making him broken and thus nerfed again, he's just not there. Final note don't always put your eggs all in your characters basket YOU also make a difference bringing your play-style into the mix.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Fox players obviously use a lot more of his kit than usmash and shine, but I'm not joking, use just those 2 moves and you will be able to win games. You won't win tournaments, but the fact that you can win anything not having any idea wtf you're doing, and spamming 2 moves (go ahead and pick 2 other moves, his whole kit is good), is a testament to how good Fox is.

That's the difference between top tiers like Fox, and mid tiers like Lucario.

 

[nimigoha]

The thing is Lucario can 0-death Fox, he's a fantastic weight to combo (just gotta watch out for CC Shine) and you can Uthrow chain him. It's all about who gets in on who first, which is where Fox has a big advantage.

 

[Risky]

Top tier is definitely reserved for characters that you can do well with, even if you have no freaking clue what you're doing. Like, just pick up Fox and spam usmash and shines, and see how well you do. Then see how that compares to someone trying to just spam random **** as Lucario.

Earlier versions (I think 2.1 was the one?) of Lucario, you could basically mash buttons and win. That character was top tier. I know how to play him way better than I did then, and I don't do nearly as well anymore.

Tier lists aren't based off of what characters people pick when they have no clue what they're doing. Fox is top tier for a variety of reasons. It wasn't always this way - it took a long time for people to figure out the tech to make him into the beast he is now.

You've gotten more familiar with Lucario, and so have other players.

 

[Risky]

Standing in teeter and doing SH Fair will autocancel, seems like a decent edgeguard.

Try standing in teeter, Ftilt then hold backwards. You will fall off facing the stage able to do any aerial, or grab the ledge. You can also DT from a certain distance into Ftilt and do this, or if you space it correctly, DT towards the edge and get the same turnaround without having to Ftilt.

E: didn't mean to double post

 

[#HBC | Joker]

Tier lists aren't based off of what characters people pick when they have no clue what they're doing. Fox is top tier for a variety of reasons. It wasn't always this way - it took a long time for people to figure out the tech to make him into the beast he is now.

You've gotten more familiar with Lucario, and so have other players.

Somebody is taking my words a little too "at face value".

 

[Risky]

Somebody is taking my words a little too "at face value".

Everything you said supported the same bad point. What more is there to take from your valuable words?

 

[#HBC | Joker]

yes, my point that Fox is top tier, and Lucario is not, is a bad point. Clearly you are an experienced expert.

 

[bec]

yes, my point that Fox is top tier, and Lucario is not, is a bad point. Clearly you are an experienced expert.

i think what they mean is you said anyone can win with fox by spamming shine and usmash, and thats what makes him top tier. fox is a very technical character and trust me, i've tried playing shine/usmash and it doesnt go well except against the scrubbiest of scrubs, so i think thats what they are referring to when they said bad point. i could be wrong in my interpretation here but that's what i get from it

 

[#HBC | Joker]

The point is that all his options are so good, that you don't even have to use all of them. He's a good character