Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[nimigoha]

Yeah I feel like that's precisely why he doesn't have a sex kick.

Although I feel like shortening Tatsu's start lag would be really useful. Frame 13 IIRC? 10 would be nice. Lucario doesn't really have a fast all-covering hitbox in the air.

Also not even in a 'I really want this' way but would anyone prefer that AC Sphere was faster and not bigger? It would completely change the use but it would work as a much better kill move. I'm thinking like Samus's full Charge Shot speed. Just a thought I had.

Lastly just an opinion question. Who do you guys think is the easiest character to combo? I think Ganondorf's weight and fall speed are perfect for good followups.

 

[bec]

i've always felt like wolf is super easy to combo for me. idk why exactly. ganondorf and captain falcon as well.

and ice climbers for some reason? i really like comboing them.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Oooh, since you're hitting two people doesn't each hit on both of them charge Aura? That's hilarious, haha

Also, can't a Sex kick Nair work like Dash Attack where later hits aren't cancelable? Or are they and I'm just bad with Lucario.

 

[bec]

i think all hits of DA are cancellable? not 100% sure though

and yep, aura for days playing ICs. its a super fun MU, his hits are really good at separating them.

 

[nimigoha]

I haven't ever played vs IC, none of my friends can play them.

But yeah Wolf is fun to combo, and Falcon.

And of course large characters like Bowser, Dedede, and DK are *really* easy to Fair>Aura AFP. Plus in general big hurt boxes means more cancel options.

But Ganondorf will always be my favourite. I picked up Lucario at first because he wrecked my friend's Ganondorf.

 

[Zoa]

I think Snake is by far the easiest for me. Doesn't have a lot of options in the air to interrupt Luc's combos, and his weight/fall speed combo just make him a huge target. How's the Lucas and Lucario MU stack up for now? I can't seem to get in much.

 

[Risky]

Lucas is pretty easy to combo if you aim the attacks right, he's just small and is usually crouching. Snake is easy to combo, not that easy to get into the combo though (lots of OOS options, random grenade pulls). Bowser for me. He's so huge.

 

[Darkgun]

You remember that time where someone was like "Man, Aura Bomb is awesome!", and then someone else was like "Nah, man. Aura Bomb is awful.", and then someone else else was like "Well, actually, if you use Aura Bomb as an edgeguarding tool, it is pretty good.", and then everyone started doing that, new and experienced, and now I think we may be back to "Hmm... maybe it was only a good edgeguard tool because people were distressed by its presence."

Well, I'm honestly kind of curious as to what folks are doing with Aura Bomb now. As situational as it is, using Aura Bomb lately has given off this functional hit-or-miss vibe for me. I shy away from the move to make it all the more surprising when it is on the stage, but is it still just primarily being used for stage control and edgeguards? I occasionally use it to protect a recovery, or as a janky mixup or a combo finishers (spacies livin' a hard life), however any other time it just diverts to [albiet sad] stage control and edgeguards. I mean, I understand the move is situational, but does anyone else get the feeling there is some implementation that is being overlooked?

 

[nimigoha]

I feel like it's not comboed into nearly enough.

The startup drag locks your opponent in and then they get 25% high knock back to the face. I've been leading into it from tilts more and more.

 

[ZaloMonkada]

so i just realized that you can use the hitbox from asc to cancel knock back from a move, like fair -> asc (hitbox hitting opponent) -> jump afp.

or when opponent is on the ground dair -> asc -> grab.

yall know any other uses or combos that you can pull off with the asc hitbox?

 

[ZaloMonkada]

Some more **** i want to talk about (i've been putting in dark room hours the last couple of days lol).

Not being to fast fall while in aura sphere animation is ****ing annoying.

Fair -> asc hitbox is hilarious. You can hit people with fairs and keep them in place in order to continue combos.

Finally a quick question.
i'm on dolphin for the next week and a half bc i'm in india
so in the build i'm using when i aura sphere cancel i press b and then immediately hold l and it buffers the cancel input as long as i'm holding it
i wasn't sure if this was just dolphin shenanigans with weird controller settings or if its legit
i don't want to reinforce bad muscle memory

 

[bec]

there is no buffer in project m so if you press L too early in game it won't cancel.

ive not really thought of applications for the asc hitbox since it mostly just screws me over with knockback stacking lmao. I think you're on to something. do you turnaround ASC to get them with the hitbox or what?

 

[Zoa]

I've had moments where the ASC actually stops any knockback. One match over here I did a DT cancel to dsmash and immediately did ASC to reset. The hitbox caught my opponent and stopped all knockback from the dsmash.

 

[bec]

knockback stacking is a hell of a thing
since AS has so little knockback when its charging, it will cancel any knockback from the smash/aerial/etc. if you catch them in it.

 

[Zoa]

Yeah. I can see BR ASC doing something to link strong attacks together potentially.

 

[Risky]

Hitting them with ASC hitbox usually opens you up to getting hit if they're pressing buttons during your combo. It resets them to air neutral too, so they're able to air dodge/waveland, situation depending.

That being said I think it's good if you get them into a shield/roll away mindset instead of mashing aerials all day. Throw in ASC'ing an aerial and just charging it on their shield while you land as a mixup and delaying when you cancel it, seems like it would cause a lot of confusion. If they roll in front of you, you can just shoot it at them, or cancel it.

 

[ZaloMonkada]

Hitting them with ASC hitbox usually opens you up to getting hit if they're pressing buttons during your combo. It resets them to air neutral too, so they're able to air dodge/waveland, situation depending.

That being said I think it's good if you get them into a shield/roll away mindset instead of mashing aerials all day. Throw in ASC'ing an aerial and just charging it on their shield while you land as a mixup and delaying when you cancel it, seems like it would cause a lot of confusion. If they roll in front of you, you can just shoot it at them, or cancel it.

It's definitely not something that's going to be bread and butter. It's a very greedy option that can be punished easily due to the nature of how you land the move. You have to be right on top of them when you start your attack so a well timed grab or any attack can hit you if you try this from neutral. In neutral, I think this is incredibly unsafe and a very cheesy tactic (only use if you're stylin).

I think knockback canceling with asc has its place in comboing though. It allows you to rack on extra damage before getting them in a grab or back in the air, and can rattle them and mess up their DI due to confusion. You can knockback cancel to get yourself in a better position to finish them off (you're on left side of stage with you on the left and opponent on the right. You fair -> asc knockback cancel -> bair for the kill (or you could finish with a wb afp maybe)). Its especially useful when they are near the ground and still in hitstun. You can catch them with a knockback cancel and lead into a grab, up tilt, down smash etc. It might not be frame perfect, but the entire sequence happens so quickly that it's very tough to react to, let alone know what's going on.

Here's a good example of asc knockback canceling by frozen. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cwo_BkfkN00 The example starts at 10:22.

Also bec, its situational when you want to turn around asc i think. For dairs, I hit the late and wb the asc to land right next to them. With fairs, I just vanilla asc and fast fall after the asc knockback cancel and land next to them. I personally am favoring facing away from them atm because it leads into a up tilt (the back part of the hitbox comes out much quicker) or downsmash and you can turaround grab pretty damn fast anyways.

There's probably some other uses with ftilt and ground moves but I haven't experimented with them yet. If y'all find any useful applications, I'm interested!

 

[ZaloMonkada]

there is no buffer in project m so if you press L too early in game it won't cancel.

Could you try it with the l and r triggers pushed in before you plug in the gc controller? I have a feeling it might work. My dolphin version is buffering the shield input but not the air dodge for some reason and its super useful. It makes frame perfect asc so much easier.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

You remember that time where someone was like "Man, Aura Bomb is awesome!", and then someone else was like "Nah, man. Aura Bomb is awful.", and then someone else else was like "Well, actually, if you use Aura Bomb as an edgeguarding tool, it is pretty good.", and then everyone started doing that, new and experienced, and now I think we may be back to "Hmm... maybe it was only a good edgeguard tool because people were distressed by its presence."

Well, I'm honestly kind of curious as to what folks are doing with Aura Bomb now. As situational as it is, using Aura Bomb lately has given off this functional hit-or-miss vibe for me. I shy away from the move to make it all the more surprising when it is on the stage, but is it still just primarily being used for stage control and edgeguards? I occasionally use it to protect a recovery, or as a janky mixup or a combo finishers (spacies livin' a hard life), however any other time it just diverts to [albiet sad] stage control and edgeguards. I mean, I understand the move is situational, but does anyone else get the feeling there is some implementation that is being overlooked?

Against the right characters, it's good to limit where your opponent can move, Lucario has some good kill power without it.

Against Kirby/Ness/Lucas/Mario don't, they have good air control/counters to it. Well not as often, you can bait the reflect/absorb at the ledge and edgeguard for a garenteed kill.

 

[Risky]

My buddy mains Lucas and it's basically a useless tool at this point. If he hits me after I do it or isn't in a very compromising position, he'll just run away and heal 25% off it. I think it should be a combo finisher for almost every stock, on almost every character. You just have to do it correctly (the hard part).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you can combo into it go for it, but using to guard the ledge isn't terrible idea. It is if you use it mindlessly even more so with some of the ones I mentioned and in addition some others.

It's good at limiting where they can go, which in some cases can guarantee you taking a stock. Be mindful, because you need to use it as a bait or trap in those situations, someone who eats it or reflects it you need to be extremely mindful.

 

[#HBC | Joker]

If you time it right, you can float an aura bomb over the ledge, then grab ledge. If they're recovering low, they've either gotta go for the ledge (which you're just going to roll away from and gimp them) or they've gotta go to the stage, which means going through your aura bomb, and getting hit.

It's still a godlike edgeguarding tool, you just need to time when you throw it. You can't just go "welp, they're offstage, time to throw this out there and hope they hit it."

Every once in awhile, going for a hail mary full jump forward > aura bomb isn't a bad idea either. Don't do it to people with reflectors or electromagnets, but if you've got the aura to spare, it's not a bad way to waste it. You just might hit them, and they'll probably die, and feel like a dope for getting hit by that **** raw.

 

[Zoa]

Has anyone thought of linking first hit of dair into an aura bomb? I just had the idea after noticing the first hit of dair pops the opponent up slightly with almost no knockback. The opponent really can't DI away from it very well, so they'll get caught in the overhead hitbox and get a face full of aura from the aura bomb. I also tried incorporating B reverse AS from a fair into bair, though it seems really DI dependent. Can anyone confirm this?

Edit: I ran a few thorough tests with my little brother on the dair -> aura bomb idea. I have almost no reason to doubt that it's a guaranteed kill set up as long as you do a stationary SH (momentum will make the float with aura bomb happen and completely wreck it). I ran CC cancel tests on most characters, DI tests, and when Luc does dair and uses aura bomb while falling tests on its DI.

The results on the CC were that literally none of the characters could CC this. Only exception was Bowser because of his armor (seriously don't use this on Bowser). DI tests fetched very good results. I ran this on the same characters, including strong CC characters like Samus, Mewtwo, DK, etc., and no one could reliably DI out of this attack without getting hit by the overhead hitbox. I had some like Falco avoid 1-2 more hits than others thanks to his fast falling, but he was always still caught in hitstun when connecting with the ground, and had to wait those few frames from landing. It always still hit them regardless. Dair -> falling aura bomb DI tests always resulted in a hit as well. This was all done in training on FD and Battlefield under 1/4 and full speed to get the results.

 

[Fish&Herbs19]

Has anyone thought of linking first hit of dair into an aura bomb? I just had the idea after noticing the first hit of dair pops the opponent up slightly with almost no knockback. The opponent really can't DI away from it very well, so they'll get caught in the overhead hitbox and get a face full of aura from the aura bomb. I also tried incorporating B reverse AS from a fair into bair, though it seems really DI dependent. Can anyone confirm this?

Edit: I ran a few thorough tests with my little brother on the dair -> aura bomb idea. I have almost no reason to doubt that it's a guaranteed kill set up as long as you do a stationary SH (momentum will make the float with aura bomb happen and completely wreck it). I ran CC cancel tests on most characters, DI tests, and when Luc does dair and uses aura bomb while falling tests on its DI.

The results on the CC were that literally none of the characters could CC this. Only exception was Bowser because of his armor (seriously don't use this on Bowser). DI tests fetched very good results. I ran this on the same characters, including strong CC characters like Samus, Mewtwo, DK, etc., and no one could reliably DI out of this attack without getting hit by the overhead hitbox. I had some like Falco avoid 1-2 more hits than others thanks to his fast falling, but he was always still caught in hitstun when connecting with the ground, and had to wait those few frames from landing. It always still hit them regardless. Dair -> falling aura bomb DI tests always resulted in a hit as well. This was all done in training on FD and Battlefield under 1/4 and full speed to get the results.

I'm so surprised that I've never thought of this. I'll definitely be using this now! Thanks for the amazing discovery

 

[Zoa]

I'm so surprised that I've never thought of this. I'll definitely be using this now! Thanks for the amazing discovery

You're welcome.

 

[nimigoha]

Yeah that's pretty good. Especially as an OOS option.

I've started canceling the 1/2/3 hitbox of Usmash into Bomb just because I can. It's pretty fun because the early hit boxes drag the opponent up so they get hit by the AB startup.

 

[Risky]

@ Zoa I'll be checking that out too. Most setups I try have the opponent getting hit by the light part of the Aura Bomb and buffering a roll away because they freak out, Powershield it since that happens 90% of the time when it gets shielded, or they *insert whatever defensive option to escape*/full jump away. The only part I don't like about this is that it's with a stationary SH which isn't the easiest to setup. OOS, Falling through platform on them or reading a tech on a platform above you? Nooice.

The most reliable setups I've found are out of Usmash like @ nimigoha said but they're definitely DI dependent. I know if you get them with the outer part of Usmash they can DI towards, the inner part of Usmash they can DI away. I think there's a spot in the middle of the Usmash hitbox that makes them go straight up. Would you mind testing that? It would be another reliable (spacing dependent) setup.

P.S. Landing a Usmash into the Dair setup anyone?

 

[Zoa]

I'll try and see at some point today if there's a hitbox like that. I'm gonna try and see if there's any way to set up aura bomb while having some momentum.

 

[Zoa]

Just finished the tests. It depends on when the opponent does DI during Usmash. The third hit will always pop the opponent straight up so long as they hold the control stick in the opposite direction at the beginning of Usmash. DI away at the start of the third hit will just send them away and out of the entire move. And it's practically impossible to do an aura bomb with any kind of momentum out of a moving dair. I ran this through several times on the biggest characters using walk, run, jump, etc. dair with any kind of momentum into a B reverse aura bomb. The float with aura bomb caused Luc to completely bypass the opponent. Unless the opponent actually kept DI-ing into the whole thing, then it's impossible for it to connect like a stationary SH dair -> aura bomb.

 

[Zoa]

How do you do anything OoS aside from jump in P:M? I can't ever figure out how. :/

 

[Risky]

How do you do anything OoS aside from jump in P:M? I can't ever figure out how. :/

You can only jump, roll, spot dodge, or grab out of shield. If you can do a move during jumpsquat (Usmash, Up-B, Shine) then you can do it OOS. Dair OOS is jump + Dair immediately when you leave the ground. Nothing crazy.

 

[Zoa]

Oh okay. So like Ike's Quick Draw stuff I'm practicing. I already have enough trouble wavedashing with Luc's three frame jump squat. This is gonna be fun learning to OoS properly.

 

[Risky]

Oh okay. So like Ike's Quick Draw stuff I'm practicing. I already have enough trouble wavedashing with Luc's three frame jump squat. This is gonna be fun learning to OoS properly.

For Lucario I think you'll pick it up quickly. Since Up-B out of shield isn't really an option for him and it's generally the hardest thing to do OOS. Usmash OOS can be tricky, you have to hit up on the control stick and immediately afterwards up on the C-Stick, not at the same time.

 

[Zoa]

I'm starting to get convinced buffing Luc's shield too much may not be such a good idea entirely. My Yoshi partner was really salty last night after so many punishes OoS with usmash. Usmash -> ASC - jump -> dair first hit -> FP spike got me so many free stocks when he tried DJC aerials near the ledge. I'd honestly like for the flame portion of FP to be sped up significantly. I can't count the number of SDs after an incorrect input offstage.

 

[Kami~]

I'm starting to get convinced buffing Luc's shield too much may not be such a good idea entirely. My Yoshi partner was really salty last night after so many punishes OoS with usmash. Usmash -> ASC - jump -> dair first hit -> FP spike got me so many free stocks when he tried DJC aerials near the ledge. I'd honestly like for the flame portion of FP to be sped up significantly. I can't count the number of SDs after an incorrect input offstage.

About the upsmash ->ASC ->jump ect.
what is the point of doing ASC if you can just jump out of upsmash anyways? Just curious, I'm a PM cario nub.

 

[Zoa]

About the upsmash ->ASC ->jump ect.
what is the point of doing ASC if you can just jump out of upsmash anyways? Just curious, I'm a PM cario nub.

It's significantly easier to set up first hit dair options. The two most notable are dair hit -> aura bomb and dair first hit -> Force Palm. You ASC on the third hit.

 

[Hylian]

I guess I should post this somewhere on the lucario boards lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irKf_SxXOLE

 

[GunBlaze]

I guess I should post this somewhere on the lucario boards lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irKf_SxXOLE

 

[Lovecraft]

I guess I should post this somewhere on the lucario boards lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irKf_SxXOLE

Gimmicky and trolly; I like it, just my style.

Essentially it's starting with an extra aura stock that you can use to open the opponent up or use it as a mind game in the initial part of a match before you throw out any real hitboxes. Definitely has its uses. If your facing an opponent with a rather large hurtbox you can just lololol on them. Also, it could be used as a good gimping tool due to the wind part of Extremespeed.

I'm attending a local today and I'll see just how useful this can be.

 

[Zoa]

Lucario in a gi CONFIRMED. All aboard the hype train!

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTQIBoeu01GtIAH1YhZruhzfiQJE7ExRr569AtD0hIMtdZRTHKIMGEFd-P