Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[Spiffykins]

Don't get me wrong, I think it would be neato if he got some new aura toys to play with, but at the end of the day we're still playing Smash. I'm pretty sure the devs only did the B+A super A.S. thing as a necessary exception, and I don't know how they could get fancier without putting in quarter circle moves and stuff like that. Plus, there are tons of other buffs I'd rather see him get before stuff like that became a priority.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Ugh I meant to reply to this earlier, sorry life stuff got in the way. Anyway, yeah I understand what you mean. When I suggested this, I didn't intend for it to have an advanced button input, but after thinking about it a little bit, I don't think giving another simple button input would be possible. I have another suggestion though, but before I suggest it, I'm curious as to what you, and the other lucario mains as well, find that he needs.

 

[CORY]

he needs more general use to his throws. the d/uthrow mixup for kills is ok, but a lot of characters tend to be able to get out of hitstun before you can reach them, and his f/bthrows are almost useless, unless you just want to get someone off the edge quickly.

i also still think he needs some sort of slightly better approach option. keep da as is, fine, but give him something better than shffl fair, which is lackluster because of his slow aerial speed and the fact that it doesn't lead to much if shielded (maybe fp, but aerial fp is lackluster unless you're on a small platform and grounded isn't so good unless the opp is at low damage or you have meter to blow as a kill move on it).

and finally, his biggest shortcoming is, if he doesn't kill you before 120/130, he's not going to kill you unless you let him. at that point, eating a dash attack is safe, as he can't follow up into anything dangerous and you're not dying from da until never, really. same with fair. at low percents, you can just cc his comboes (even with ohc) and punish, and at higher damages (outside of his sweetspot kill range) you just eat non kill moves and laugh at him.

 

[Darkgun]

I'm with CORY on this one, and thinking about it now, I would also be willing to say that Lucario's fthrow and bthrow are rather lackluster, especially when compared to that of Brawl, in which they made for a powerful way to control your opponent's position on the stage, and even kill, as the battle progressed. And while I agree that trading the sheer power of those throws for the (practically free) combo potential brought on by the current uthrow and dthrow, I feel like if that potential was spread around in a more generalized way across his throws they would serve more purpose. I am thinking now that a shallow angle between the current and Sonic's dthrow, for example, would lend more functionality to the bthrow.

i also still think he needs some sort of slightly better approach option. keep da as is, fine, but give him something better than shffl fair, which is lackluster because of his slow aerial speed and the fact that it doesn't lead to much if shielded (maybe fp, but aerial fp is lackluster unless you're on a small platform and grounded isn't so good unless the opp is at low damage or you have meter to blow as a kill move on it).

I can't say I am totally with you here. As it stands, and based on the idea of how Lucario was built, improving his approaches would make him pretty crazy. From what I can think of approach wise, both risky and safe, there is: (Which I feel as though this could be spectacularly honed down to very useful and very poor approaches, so this is totally up for discussion. Read as: "Please discuss Lucario approaches and their overall viability in neutral and stagger game situations at some point.")

• DA
• WD>Jab [or at least I feel like this should work]
• ftilt[good surprise. Not as effective in neutral game.]
• dash/WD>dtilt[I forget to do this more often, but it has some pretty good range and seems quite safe.]
• Aura Sphere/Baby Aura Sphere/Aura Bomb covered approaches of all previously mentioned
• shffl fair
• shffl bair [like Ike or DK's bair approaches]
• sh dair[>FP/ASC options] [unsafe]
• ES [great one-time surprise. If spaced right, you can ledge grab similar to Bowser's Fortress Hogging and set up into some edgeguarding.]
• sh AS/BAS
• fh AS> djff fair/bair/nair[covers vertical retreat option, and if spaced right can move evading opponent backwards. Also, I am not sure if this is possible, so it might be better to disregard it.]
• DT[sorta]
• sh FP Aura Fire [unsafe, decent knockback]
• sh Aura Bomb [Sliding Aura Bomb]
• fh Rapid Aura Bomb [risky]
• DTC
• ESC

If I were to actually suggest a change to improve his approaches overall, increasing either his movement speed or air control by a small amount would do this, I figure.

and finally, his biggest shortcoming is, if he doesn't kill you before 120/130, he's not going to kill you unless you let him. at that point, eating a dash attack is safe, as he can't follow up into anything dangerous and you're not dying from da until never, really. same with fair. at low percents, you can just cc his comboes (even with ohc) and punish, and at higher damages (outside of his sweetspot kill range) you just eat non kill moves and laugh at him.

I am torn here.... I'm with you for the most part. Lucario does indeed have a specific kill range, and upon departing from that kill range, there is a massive gap in which the viable kill moves are next to impossible to land without Aura Charges, really raw reads, or aggressive gimps (this is where that better bthrow would be nice), before the next kill range (aptly titled: KO with ALL THE THINGS). In regards to CC, I don't know many character with low knockback moves who aren't easily punished in this way (Maybe GnW, Pikachu, or ROB? I'm sure there are a more....), though I will admit to a bit of generalizing there.
The reason I am torn is because I'm not really sure if improving this would be all that easy to do. One could increase the knockback on fair, but that would make it less useful earlier on in the stock. Perhaps a killing throw? Weaken DA's knockback, though that would cause it to overlap the Jab/ftilt a bit. More kb on the final hit of ES? I can't even begin to think of a proper fix here. Within reason, I still think the dead zone can be covered fairly well, but it is certainly harder for Lucario to get a kill at this range than it is for almost anyone else, so that's a bit off, I think.

In all honesty, I can't really think of anything Lucario needs desperately to compete. At least, not in my opinion. To be in the position of power he is in already Lucario forfeit a fair amount of defensive potential, range, and safety, so any changes at this point would hopefully be lightweight or tweaking at best (perhaps enabling Jab 3 to hit short targets?).

 

[Magus420]

Between the strong foot hit of dash attack which sends upwards and the weak hit which also sends upwards, if you can't land a ground move from it at high damage you can ASC into u/n-air pretty well and for a very long time (weak hit doesn't send Jigglypuff too high for u-air until almost 200 or something).

 

[CORY]

In all honesty, I can't really think of anything Lucario needs desperately to compete. At least, not in my opinion. To be in the position of power he is in already Lucario forfeit a fair amount of defensive potential, range, and safety, so any changes at this point would hopefully be lightweight or tweaking at best (perhaps enabling Jab 3 to hit short targets?).

i agree with that, most definitely. it just feels really off that his approach options are really limited in scope (and suffer the same issues, amongst the entire pool), yet he can't get a consistent kill past 120 (sans aura lead ins). just bugs my scrubby self...

about the ccing, though: i really mostly noticed it when a gnw i was playing at a tourney last weekend was able to cc-dtilt out of my da-dtilt-[try to dsmash] at around 50-60-ish. i assumed that, at the very least, gnw being as light as he is, shouldn't be able to cc-dtilt me out of one of lucario's limited approaching options at that damage range. maybe i just used the wrong followup? but i'm not sure what would've been better, as i'm sure the startup on double team, asc, and u/fsmash are all longer than dsmash : /

 

[Magus420]

D-smash hits on 12 and u-smash on 10.

 

[Darkgun]

about the ccing, though: i really mostly noticed it when a gnw i was playing at a tourney last weekend was able to cc-dtilt out of my da-dtilt-[try to dsmash] at around 50-60-ish. i assumed that, at the very least, gnw being as light as he is, shouldn't be able to cc-dtilt me out of one of lucario's limited approaching options at that damage range. maybe i just used the wrong followup? but i'm not sure what would've been better, as i'm sure the startup on double team, asc, and u/fsmash are all longer than dsmash : /

I saw the match that you were talking about, since you posted it in the video thread. Aside from what Magus420 pointed out, if you wanted the fastest possible option, the only one I can think of is AS>roll/spotdodge, since doing either one of these interrupts the cancel animation, making them faster than attempting to go directly to shield. Now with that said, I just sat down to make sure this was correct (Training Mode, 1/4 Speed) and found that not only can you interrupt the cancel animation with a dodge, you can interrupt it with anything but a shield, which absolutely blew my mind and explained just why ASC is so useful.

In the case of a CCing opponent, the best option may just be to get away or get behind, assuming you can do so safely. Alternatively, if you are willing to take risks on raw luck, you could always go for managing to grab armor your way through the attack with ASC>grab or FP, depending upon which is faster or more preferred. At least that is my suggestion. I may go have a look at the Frame Data thread and see if I can find a more definitive answer.

Edit: Woahkay. Accordin' to the frame data, your fastest option would have been usmash. If GnW's attack is executed in less than that (plus any endlag frames not canceled between the last hit and the next attack input), then you may have trapped yourself. With that in mind, this still seems like a really small window for response, so there may be a chance that these kinds of attack patterns may still work safely.

 

[Spiffykins]

Space for the d tilt meteor sweetspot. It only reaches slightly farther than dash attack, it's more or less the same range as the foot hitbox of DA. Alternatively, go straight for a running up smash next time and knock out a few of their teeth to teach them a lesson.

Also, running full hop fair (aka 'the Charlie Brown') is a nice approach mixup. If they jump oos, dair beats almost everything except swords, and you can cover your landing behind them with a bair if necessary. I recommend not making that a habit though, maybe unless you're fighting Peach or Jiggs.

As for stuff I wish was different about Lucario, down b, jab combo, and u air are the primary things I grumble about these days. Down b for obvious reasons. Jab because although I haven't seen humans do this, computers will shield grab you every time they block it which I assume means it's simply unsafe. U air just because the strong hitbox is hard as balls to hit with sometimes, it's amazing other than that. If the second hitbox down was stronger, or the strong hitbox was bigger, or something to that effect, I'd be happy. It's just frustrating when you u air someone a bunch of times and not a single one was the strong hit that would have killed them.

The meteor hitbox on d tilt popping them away confuses me as well, considering it's the outermost hitbox.

 

[CORY]

hrmmm... ok, i'll keep all that in mind, though i think i'm just going to have to admit that as awesome as lucario is, i just don't click with his playstyle... i'll be getting some games in this weekend, so maybe i'll try stuff out, then!

 

[Burnsy]

Jab because although I haven't seen humans do this, computers will shield grab you every time they block it which I assume means it's simply unsafe.

Why assume when you can look at the frame data Magus has so generously bestowed upon you Lucario mains? Jab combo is +3 advantage on block for hits 1 and 2 and +6 on hit 3, meaning that as long as aren't slow with your jabs there is no way they should be sheild grabbing you.

 

[Badge]

Actually the jab combo is no OHC and the advantage is 4 frames less than then for OHCs, that is: +0. Jab 2/3 take 8 frames to come out, so most characters can shieldgrab between the hits. Any jab canceled into any tilt on the other hand is safe against shield grabs.

 

[Burnsy]

In Magus' post, he says that the jab sequence advantage is the ohc advantage minus 1, since its not an ohc.

 

[Badge]

You have to include the 3 frames before the next jab can be initiated from the previous one in your calculation. Magus indeed called the advantage the combination of htlag advantage and shield stun and included the startup in the "hit" field for the jabs, but that's just terminology. Hit on frame 11 with an advantage of 3 frames or hit on frame 8 with an advantage of 0 frames, the result is the same: Most characters can shieldgrab you. But as you can't initiate your next jab until your opponent, too, can act, an advantage of +0 makes more sense to me from a terminology standpoint.

 

[Burnsy]

Ah ok, got it. Would you say human players of characters with fast enough shield grabs should be able to react/mash them out reliably? Its not possible to buffer a shield grab, right? I'm wondering if it could be possible for Lucario to use this lack if advantage to bait out shield grabs and punish the grab attempt with a fast tilt mix-up.

 

[Spiffykins]

Well now I can say I've been I have been shield grabbed out of jabbing by a human, and I won't be using his jab combo for shield pressure any more unless it's ZSS.

 

[Darkgun]

Looking at it, it may be a better choice to Jab>Dtilt if Jab lands on shield, as, if I am reading the frame data correct, the OHC should give the opponent only one frame to perform a standing grab, (Using Magus420's 2.5 Frame Data chart. Jab, OHC yields 4 frame advantage, minus the 5 frames required to perform the dtilt, giving your opponent 1 frame to act.).

On a separate note, I'm slowly trying to scrap together an idea of Lucario's approach options in the neutral game, since it is considered to be one of his weaker aspects. Going back to what I listed above, and removing the completely weird mixups (and mixups all together, actually) and Aura Charge options, I am left with:

• Dash Attack
• Dtilt (including Wave Dash and Dash)
• fair (including SHFFL and FH [A.K.A.: Charlie Brown])
• SHFFL bair
• Aura Sphere/Baby Aura Sphere covered approaches listed above.

That totals four core options, and variations included (AS/BAS counting as one for each), about ten different cut-and-dry approaches. These are the safest approaches I can think of. Anyone got anything to add to this list? It is quite important to note that because of Lucario's design, landing one of his approaches often leads in to a rather damaging option or a method of limiting your opponent's options or easing your next approach, up until you can land some consistent hits.
Despite this weakness, I have found that I feel safer when on the approach, particularly with Aura Sphere charged, as it provides a ranged attack against a retreating opponent that can in some cases allow one to pressure forward behind it, covering the space above with spacing for a fair. A good opponent will often try to force commitment from Lucario, however using dtilt seems to help mitigate this issue as it is fast and does not face an incredibly long endlag. Opponents with a large amount of influence around their character, such as Link, Marth, Bowser, Ike, GnW, and D3 will pose greater threats, as due to the overall short range of Lucario's attacks, they may be able to either challenge or outreach him from a standing position. In situations like these, it may be best to tempt opponents into trying to challenge Lucario's approach, shielding their action with his incredibly precious shield, and responding accordingly, and thankfully, with the exception of Marth (if I am not mistaken), most of the characters with this advantage are also somewhat or unbelievably susceptible to combos.

 

[Darkgun]

O.K, so I've been trying my darnedest to look into machups a little bit, but with the severe lack of Project M players in my area to practice with, I'm limited to the computers and my own little experimentation that at best can only give me a brief idea. So, and I ask this half out of curiosity and mostly in [albeit personal] preparation for an upcoming tournament, what does the Lucario-Marth matchup seem to be? I would attempt to start a machup thread if I could contribute more than theory-craft on the matter, but that's all I got. I'll just go ahead and post what I've observed and theorized so far.

--------------------
Lucario-Marth: 40-60, Marth's favor.
General
Overall, this feels like a pretty rough scrap for Lucario. Marth, without exception, has an overall range advantage over Lucario, and for the most part, all of Marth's attacks are sweeping motions, so there are very few blindspots one can stand in while he's attacking (spare the obvious). This means that approaches is likely to consist mostly of baiting commitment or CCing attacks. Additionally, I do believe Marth's fthrow CG applies to Lucario, so being grabbed early in a stock could most certainly lead to massive damage or the outright loss of it. Marth seems to have a larger dash dance and longer WD than Lucario, further exaggerating his spacial influence compared to Lucario.

Offense [Theory-craft]
Landing damage on Marth is going to be a very detrimental affair, as that requires getting in real close, and thus entering deep into Marth's spacial influence. With that in mind, against a defensive, noncommittal Marth, having AS charged and using AS and BAS will help improve approach odds, especially since Lucario can almost catch up to both forms of AS. In the event that one vies for center stage, it should be rather easy to either pressure Marth into a gradual retreat (BAS and positional pressure) or an unsafe approach (AS or BAS at SH level. Utaunt once or twice.). Combos on Marth are going to get short quick, as he leans slightly towards the floaty side of the cast. Additionally, it seems that the best place to keep Marth is above and in front of Lucario, as this seems to be where Marth has the least coverage or offensive power, and should Marth manage to force a landing, attempting to stand right in front of his landing position seems to garnish the most options (Jab[>Jab]>tilt>ASC, dtilt, utilt, SH bair/nair, SH fair/dair>FP, Charlie Brown>DT, Grab). Lucario, if momentum is in his favor, should be able to choose where on the stage the encounters happen and bully Marth to these positions. With that in mind, good luck gaining momentum and then keeping it. Marth's wake-up choices (rolls, stand, attack), are fairly easy to react to, and his techs are what I would assume to be average, though it is likely that tech chases will not consist of more than one tech or wake-up.

I would be willing to say that, despite the edgeguard and gimp tools Lucario has, edgeguarding Marth is going to be a dangerous affair. Safe edgeguards will likely consist of AS at ledge height, dtilt or dair at stage height. Aggressive edgeguards are likely deep AS (if there is a wall to recover off of, very deep), deep dair, far fair or nair, far and high bair or FP Fire, though most of these options, especially up high, are likely to trigger aerial responses, or in some cases a dair (though if Marth is in position for this why would ya go out there anyway?). On particularly powerful edgeguard is a deep FP, though results are either win or die, and an alternative, below ledge height FP, which yields safer results, even if failed or challenged.

Combos and juggles are going to consist mainly of attacks that keep Marth in his weakest position, and due to his traction and reach, ftilt will likely only come out of low percent DA or jab[2]. I would personally discourage using Usmash to it's final hit, as it is somewhat easy to DI out of, and can lead to a punish that will push Lucario well out of position. utilt>Fsmash>DT at lower percents will deal significant damage, position well for followups, likely lead into tech chases. Ending combos with a charged AS makes for a good chaser to any low height launches, and can enable one to take large amounts of space from Marth.

Aura Charges - Offense
Aura Bomb:

• Approach: AB or an AB wall can help pressure Marth into shield. Watch for reflect or counter (the latter of which hits like a monster off of Aura Bomb, if I am correct and it scales with attack strength). Sliding AB can also help close this gap, and works well off of platforms.
• Edgeguard: Placement general heights, hightest to lowest. FH RAB high(Slam Dunk), AB for stage height, SH RAB for just below ledge, SH AB for deep, Sliding RAB for very deep, Sliding Aura Bomb for whywouldyouevendothis (almost always requires walled stage to recover).
• Combos: It might work out of an early JC Usmash, but that JC>RAB has got to be super tight. SUPER TIGHT.

Force Blast: It's Force Palm. Use it like ya always do. Grounded kills at 110% with no DI. Will probably kill at 120% with perfect DI.
Double Team Cancel and Extreme Speed Cancel: I actually don't use these enough in an offensive fashion to give any advice on 'em. They seem kinda straight forward, really.
Defense [Theory-craft]
As mentioned before, if Lucario can gain momentum against Marth, he gets to pick where encounters take place. This however is not likely to happen, as due to Marth's reach and low end lag on L-Canceled aerials and most tilts (I believe utilt is a bit slow to wind down). Using AS, BAS, and threatening with dtilt will help break up or pressure approaches. CCing a committed aerial will yield a favorable position for both players, as Marth can easily follow up into a grab or tilt and Lucario can do what Lucario does, and powershielding will almost certainly put Lucario in a favorable position. However, entering shield in neutral due to Marth's pokes will almost certainly yield a grab or shield poke from dtilt. It is also important to note that his nair, bair, fair is shorter than Lucario's Fsmash, so a backwards WD>Fsmash on committed aerial approaches can yield either a hit or a hit on shield, both of which can be ASC. It is important to note that, while it will likely be difficult to enter into Marth's range safely, once there Lucario must act almost immediately to capitalize on the situation, lest he be instead punished for the intrusion.

Positionally, the worst place to be when near Marth is going to be above and in front of him, due to his sweeping attacks and decent combo potential. Safer positioning is going to be well outside of Marth's spacial influence, though this may lead to situations in which Lucario is easily boxed out. Tech all the things, as Marth has several attacks that can initiate combos from a downed opponent, a notorious grab range, and two easily accessed jab resets (there is also one on the second swing of Sword Dance, but I doubt that'd be used).

On recovery, Marth has almost all the tools that Lucario has for edgeguarding. Hold onto the second jump as long as possible, and try to sweetspot the ledge at every chance when recovering low or at ledge height, as he has several moves that reach below the ledge, one of which is his lovely dair spike. Recovering high with DT, as passing through Marth may only merit a bair or dair from him that might put you onstage.
In terms of Aura Charges, the only real suggestion I could make would be to avoid being careless with use of charges on recovery. Using an Aura Bomb on return often makes for a good surprise and allows time to sweetspot the ledge unopposed if spaced correctly. Also, an ESC>air dodge makes for a good method of avoiding a dair spike at ledge height if a sweetspot is not possible.

Stage Selection [Theory-craft]
I'll confess that I am a bit poor when it comes to knowledge of stages and their effects on matchups. As a general rule, I would avoid stages with prominent platform coverage. Under this strategy, in neutral stage picks, aiming for Pokemon Stadium II, FD, and S-Ville are likely going to favor better for Lucario than the alternatives. Avoid Battlefield and Yoshi's Story, leaving the others to be second choice stages. In counterpick, stages like GHZ, FD, Castlevania, and Metal Cavern are more inclined to favor Lucario.
--------------------
That's all I got. If someone could pick this apart or add to it in any way, that'd be awesome. And heck, if folks know more about other matchups, discussing 'em would probably be rather enlightening.

 

[GunBlaze]

Alright, people, Lucaryu vs. Sonic. Discuss.

 

[ZIG-zaGz]

As a new lucario player myself i noticed that to. Also Do you guys have any advice on setting up the Aura Bomb specials into a combo?

I use Super Aura Sphere(SAS) as a combo finisher after Usmash>JC>Fair or Nair. You can FF while launching it so if they try and DI under (which usually happens because in if they don't, Lucario can just not FF and blast them) you can stay right with their tech and walla; the epic win.

Also, its possible to launch the SAS a few frames after initiating the Aura Sphere (AS) charge animation. It looks like you're just going to AS so sometimes your opponent will act thinking a small-medium sized ball is coming high but instead is blasted by a Super at edge height or slightly above.

i also still think he needs some sort of slightly better approach option. keep da as is, fine, but give him something better than shffl fair, which is lackluster because of his slow aerial speed and the fact that it doesn't lead to much if shielded (maybe fp, but aerial fp is lackluster unless you're on a small platform and grounded isn't so good unless the opp is at low damage or you have meter to blow as a kill move on it).

As far as maintaining his illusiveness; I wave bounce/moonwalk like a madman because his mobility is crippling to his game otherwise. What's been working for me lately is getting aerial. It's really easy to get stuck trying to land hits on shield just to combo on the ground to a canceled smash. Sure, Usmash is great to lead into the air but its hard to land unless you're already OHCing on the ground.

My Point: approach with an aerial. they're all good in their own situations and with ASCing I think they're better than a ground approach 75% of the time. Especially Nair or Fair. rising Fairs are my go-to for carry combos while Nair has good KB, is very threatening and is fairly safe even if no contact is made (L-cancled into a D-tilt which has low end-lag in regards to Lucario). I would love to see the Lucario metagame shift away from DA combo starts and, with any luck, some kind of mobility buff for Lucario from the PMBR in the next update.

One last thing. I think that incorporating ES and DT into combos is key for lucario to compete. If you're feeling unstoppable, link in a couple Charge Canceled ES's in the air to finish up top or far off the edge... not to mention ES is great for ledgehogging.
Charge Canceled aerial DT is great in a pinch. It's a quick way to get midstage and possibly start comboing if your opponent is pressuring for a non canceled aerial DT.

 

[Yung Mei]

visiting from the GNW boards, have you guys discussed the GNW/Lucario matchup?

 

[ZIG-zaGz]

I think the match up is in GNW's favor; at least 55-45 or 60-40. GNW has very little end-lag on his tilts and jab so interrupting lucario after ASC or between OHC'd moves is easier for him. Also, the chair(F-tilt, I belive) really makes recovering difficult if you're low with lucario. If the GNW you're playing uses bacon well, then you could get forced low when knocked off stage. Bacon is so effing annoying...

 

[ZIG-zaGz]

My buddy plays GNW very well so I'll see if I can get him to put up a vid in the GNW section playing my Lucario or something....

 

[ZIG-zaGz]

Well now I can say I've been I have been shield grabbed out of jabbing by a human, and I won't be using his jab combo for shield pressure any more unless it's ZSS.

Lucario gets sheild grabbed so hard out of bad placement. that's why you have to be very mobile with ASC or Double Team on sheild and get outta that grab range! Now that i think of it, I almost never use Lucario's second and third jab because of that.

 

[Yung Mei]

i haven't played the matchup much (only about twice)

i have some money matches with eggz you guys could use for discussion
http://youtu.be/KFoPucRdiK8
http://youtu.be/e1LlQEKzOYM

 

[Spiffykins]

i haven't played the matchup much (only about twice)

i have some money matches with eggz you guys could use for discussion
http://youtu.be/KFoPucRdiK8
http://youtu.be/e1LlQEKzOYM

Oh yeah, I think I watched these back in April. Don't really have much to say about it, except that it is my goal to MM Eggz in a Lucario ditto if I ever get a chance.

 

[Darkgun]

...Don't really have much to say about it, except that it is my goal to MM Eggz in a Lucario ditto if I ever get a chance.

This. This sounds awesome. Get some footage 'a that. Actually, Lucario dittos just sound fun in general. Low Tier City rolls around, and I'm going to give my most concerted effort to play against the other Lucario players 'round here.

I think the match up is in GNW's favor; at least 55-45 or 60-40. GNW has very little end-lag on his tilts and jab so interrupting lucario after ASC or between OHC'd moves is easier for him. Also, the chair(F-tilt, I belive) really makes recovering difficult if you're low with lucario. If the GNW you're playing uses bacon well, then you could get forced low when knocked off stage. Bacon is so effing annoying...

My buddy plays GNW very well so I'll see if I can get him to put up a vid in the GNW section playing my Lucario or something....

Lucario gets sheild grabbed so hard out of bad placement. that's why you have to be very mobile with ASC or Double Team on sheild and get outta that grab range! Now that i think of it, I almost never use Lucario's second and third jab because of that.

Just to clarify, ZIG-zaGz, you can edit your post if you think of something to add to what ya said, as opposed to triple postin'.

visiting from the GNW boards, have you guys discussed the GNW/Lucario matchup?

I'll admit that I don't have any GnW matchup experience... yet. I'll stick to what I know to be most prominent based upon my limited knowledge.
I'm kinda with ZIG here. Probably 60-40, GnW's favor. The match most certainly isn't unwinnable by any means, but aerial spacing seems quite a bit more prominent, especially with all of GnW's lingering hitboxes and what appears to be extra hitboxes on landing from an aerial attack. That, and since approaching GnW can be quite the chore, what with excellent tilts, the trampoline, and more prominently bacon, landing a killing blow out of anything but a hard read FP+ (I'm still trying to figure out what to call an overcharged Force Palm. :T), a dtilt or throw into nair, or as a stretch a weak hit DA>Fsmash sounds to be a rather rough endeavor. Probably the best bet for damage, if I had to guess, would be setting up into Usmash[>JC>fair/bair/nair>DT/ASC] or platform tech chases with aFP.

So in short, Bacon Storm.... It's like hail, only greasier.

 

[~Frozen~]

Let's also remember that GnW's CC game is pretty damn good between Jab and Dtilt, and a good CC game is a great tool against Lucario because you can interrupt his OHC strings a lot of times in this manner (One of the reasons why I think the Peach MU is one of Lucario's worst matchups, but I'm open to more discussion on that). He can also block out aura spheres with the chair which is incredibly frustrating since that's going to be one of your more reliable ways to score damage and approaches in this matchup. As for killing, if you aren't able to kill GnW off one of your combo strings, you're going to have a tough ride landing that kill. I'd stick to spacing Bairs or punish a predicted shield with EX Force Palm. DTC's are also very good approaching tools if you have an aura charge stored, and can easily catch your opponent off guard especially with GnW's rather laggy aerials.

 

[Bakasama]

Just a small comment from a Project M newcomer, but a melee/brawl vet: Holy ****, Project M reintroduced tech chasing and suddenly Lucario and others became king of the floor! In brawl there was virtually no reason to ever use a floor-based move due to certain vulnerabilities in the gravity system and such, and even in Melee, it was too restrictive to ground yourself in casual play (inputs and such), but now Lucario's 'magic combos' are absolutely dirty, nevermind his aerial force-palm over the edge. Absolutely nasty, props to Lucario's everywhere.

 

[iLink]

Anyone figure out any changes in 2.6 yet?

Only noticeable thing for me is the new ftilt animation. I want to say that maybe something was tweaked regarding his speed but I'm not sure enough about it.

 

[bdk01]

I like P:M's Lucario. I can utilize a dthrow chainthrow with heavier characters, but lighter characters are chaingrabable too with some dashing before they land.

 

[Spiffykins]

Anyone figure out any changes in 2.6 yet?

Only noticeable thing for me is the new ftilt animation. I want to say that maybe something was tweaked regarding his speed but I'm not sure enough about it.

I guess I'll go through some of the things I've noticed.

1) shorter dashdance
2) faster run / possibly dash
3) better moonwalk?
4) fair, bair, and nair hitboxes all seem a little different/smaller but it's hard to say, people said nair is faster though
5) side b is definitely faster, it's very noticeable, I've been able to get grabs I wouldn't before
6) up throw angle is more vertical, which is something I've always thought should happen
7) falls faster possibly???
8) dtilt straight nerfed, less range and seems more laggy, still fine for OHC combos I guess but it was also a really good poke before
9) dsmash comes out slower

There's some other subtle things about his movement that feel like they've been tweaked, like his up b/down b and their cancels. Overall I'd say he feels a bit smoother and it's easier to glue yourself to your target during combos. He didn't get any major changes, mostly minor stuff as far as I can tell, excluding side b.

Go slam some dunks, Lucarios.

nice terraria avatar btw, bdk01

 

[Aenglaan]

I guess I'll go through some of the things I've noticed.

1) shorter dashdance
2) faster run / possibly dash
3) better moonwalk?
4) fair, bair, and nair hitboxes all seem a little different/smaller but it's hard to say, people said nair is faster though
5) side b is definitely faster, it's very noticeable, I've been able to get grabs I wouldn't before
6) up throw angle is more vertical, which is something I've always thought should happen
7) falls faster possibly???
8) dtilt straight nerfed, less range and seems more laggy, still fine for OHC combos I guess but it was also a really good poke before
9) dsmash comes out slower

There's some other subtle things about his movement that feel like they've been tweaked, like his up b/down b and their cancels. Overall I'd say he feels a bit smoother and it's easier to glue yourself to your target during combos. He didn't get any major changes, mostly minor stuff as far as I can tell, excluding side b.

Go slam some dunks, Lucarios.

nice terraria avatar btw, bdk01

I've also noticed that his f-tilt animation is changed and it feels like it can combo into his side-B much better.

 

[Darkgun]

Well, I'm glad to hear that it isn't just me that feels that Lucario feels only slightly different. I suspect that the title 2.6 has more to do with that feeling than anything else, and once the patch notes are out this will be less of a guessing game. I will admit that I am unsure of why they adjusted the endlag on his ftilt (this prevents the walking ftilt... gag, frankly. Was a snap for the receiver to deal with.), it really shouldn't effect Lucario play all that much, since it still makes a nice surprise gap-closer and horizontal combo setup/extension.

Overall I'd say he feels a bit smoother and it's easier to glue yourself to your target during combos.

I somewhat took note of this, but I am still unsure if that is actually the case or I just want it to be. I know for certain that his ftilt feels this way, but if the rest of his moves are as such, then it should improve his punish and combo game significantly.

If FP is indeed faster (I am pretty certain that going back to 2.1's... I think it was vBrawl's 6 frames... is out of the question), and manages to be fast enough, I am going to have a TON of fun with FP. Low percent (likely out of Usmash) fair>DTC>dair1>wavebounceFP>techchase on the larger side of the cast, and sub the wavebounce for a reverse FP on average characters... I'm going to have to go try this once I get some time to sit down and play a bit more... *that might not even work....

*Yeah, I can't make that work.... Not that I've put much effort into it yet.

 

[CORY]

from watching a few vids and playing around with him once, i think his double team is a bit faster, so it's now not almost useless.

 

[Nguz95]

Could someone please clarify something? I hae been reading all the threads here, because I am very interested in Lucario, but I can't seem to find a definition for aura sphere cancelling. From what I can tell it's using the magic series to get into aurasphere, then cancelling it with shield, which, apparently resets the magic series. If I'm wrong, which is very likely, could someone please clarify?

 

[Darkgun]

Could someone please clarify something? [snip]

Well, you're pretty close. ASC can technically be performed without even attacking the opponent (though what purpose that would serve, I cannot think of), as it really just consists of, as you correctly observed, tapping shield to cancel charging Aura Sphere. Why this is useful is because when you cancel, you return to neutral so to speak, thus allowing you to act with all the options available. It also takes WAY less time to ASC than it does to wait on the endlag of most of Lucario's tilts, aerials, and all of his smashes.

So the only part of this that you were wrong on is that it doesn't reset the magic series, it resets Lucario. Fair>ASC>jump>fair>wavebounceAS, Go!

 

[Nguz95]

Well, you're pretty close. ASC can technically be performed without even attacking the opponent (though what purpose that would serve, I cannot think of), as it really just consists of, as you correctly observed, tapping shield to cancel charging Aura Sphere. Why this is useful is because when you cancel, you return to neutral so to speak, thus allowing you to act with all the options available. It also takes WAY less time to ASC than it does to wait on the endlag of most of Lucario's tilts, aerials, and all of his smashes.

So the only part of this that you were wrong on is that it doesn't reset the magic series, it resets Lucario. Fair>ASC>jump>fair>wavebounceAS, Go!

Now it makes sense. Thank you very much! Now I just have to practice some more so I can slam some dunks!

 

[Ariyo]

How does Lucario wall cling after up+b? Seems random

EDIT: Figured it out

 

[Risky]

To cling just hold towards stage after up-b. On a similar note, I've noticed multiple times when I sweetspot with his up-b, occasionally I bounce off the edge as if I were clinging to the side or something. It's very hard to replicate, as it only happens at certain angles (either horizontal up-b directly at the edge, or if I'm above the edge, angling it down trying to sweetspot). Anybody have input on this? If it were able to be replicated it seems pretty powerful.