Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[cannedbread]

how do lucario people feel about gimping with lucario
i think it's kind of easy to just jump in balls deep with nair offstage (mostly against vulnerable upb's like spacies and the like) and cancel into upb back onto the stage
but i'm not a lucario player at all and this is probably bad

 

[Spiffykins]

how do lucario people feel about gimping with lucario
i think it's kind of easy to just jump in balls deep with nair offstage (mostly against vulnerable upb's like spacies and the like) and cancel into upb back onto the stage
but i'm not a lucario player at all and this is probably bad

Nair isn't the best for gimping. The hitbox isn't very convenient and it has a lot of end lag so it's high risk. The scenarios where you're very likely to recover after a miss are limited, especially if your opponent is recovering simultaneously. Tbh, there's no reason not to just fair them a billion times instead. If they still refuse to die, you can up-b to the ledge and bair them instead.

As for how I feel about gimping in general, Lucario's gimp game is prime. There's little room for error unless you have vertical walls to cling to, but for a two-jump character it's about as good as it gets.

 

[DrinkingFood]

why bair after you go to the ledge when you can ledgehop ASC turnaround fair? I find fair easier tp hit with personally.

 

[Spiffykins]

why bair after you go to the ledge when you can ledgehop ASC turnaround fair? I find fair easier tp hit with personally.

That's good if they're recovering high, but if they're going low then dropping from the ledge and DJ bair-ing seems like the best thing to do. Besides, depending on the opponent's percent and the stage, bair could kill them outright whereas fair just nudges them away.

 

[DrinkingFood]

ledge hop =/= ledgejump
What I said wouldn't work that well for high recoveries at all.
It's percent dependent, ill give you that, but fair will almost always put them in a bad position due to having a lower angle, while bair's higher angle risks actually helping them recover if it doesn't outright kill them and they DI correctly.

 

[Spiffykins]

ledge hop =/= ledgejump
What I said wouldn't work that well for high recoveries at all.
It's percent dependent, ill give you that, but fair will almost always put them in a bad position due to having a lower angle, while bair's higher angle risks actually helping them recover if it doesn't outright kill them and they DI correctly.

Ok, I misunderstood. You're right, it is pretty much entirely percent dependent.

While we're talking about gimping, what do you guys think of using side-b? I find it to be a solid option against big characters, especially at low percents where fair > side-b is a possibility.

 

[iLink]

ledge hop =/= ledgejump
What I said wouldn't work that well for high recoveries at all.
It's percent dependent, ill give you that, but fair will almost always put them in a bad position due to having a lower angle, while bair's higher angle risks actually helping them recover if it doesn't outright kill them and they DI correctly.

I'm like 99% sure fair has a higher angle.

EDIT: Just checked in brawlbox. Fair angle is 60 degrees while bair is the sakurai angle.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Really fair is 60 degrees? I'ma test that **** tomorrow I admittedly haven't played as lucario much lately

 

[theONEjanitor]

Lucario's entire game seems to be pretty much percent dependent, like your approaches and strats will be constantly changing throughout the match.

i am ambivalent about nair. it has great knockback and stays out a while, but it has kind of a lot of recovery and gets you punished if you miss, and nothing seems to combo into it consistently when DI is a factor.

I have a feeling that people are going to try to complicate this character more than he needs to be though. he has pretty standard stuff at all percents you just have to adjust based on who you're fighting. he has the potential to be mad flashy doe

i didnt play much lucario in 2.1, so if he was more bread and butter then I cant imagine, because I still find him pretty bread and butter. just have to memorize what to do on certain weight characters at certain percents.

also, this is obvious, but i've heard people saying lucario has trouble doing stuff at high percents. yo just jab jab f-smash lol

 

[Greenpoe]

Down B is actually quite useful. Try short hop into down B into Force Palm. It's pretty sweet, since if you do the down B in the air, the landing lag seems to get cut out (whereas down B on the ground leaves you sitting there helpless for a moment). If you space it right, you can end up right behind them which sets up for a Force Palm.

Also, down B is really good for horizontal recovery still. Down B + wall cling (good on Yoshi's Island!) + up B + up B-aura cancel = lots of options to recover.

 

[Spiffykins]

I'm like 99% sure fair has a higher angle.

EDIT: Just checked in brawlbox. Fair angle is 60 degrees while bair is the sakurai angle.

Sweet. In that case, bair all day erry day.

Lucario's entire game seems to be pretty much percent dependent, like your approaches and strats will be constantly changing throughout the match.

i am ambivalent about nair. it has great knockback and stays out a while, but it has kind of a lot of recovery and gets you punished if you miss, and nothing seems to combo into it consistently when DI is a factor.

I have a feeling that people are going to try to complicate this character more than he needs to be though. he has pretty standard stuff at all percents you just have to adjust based on who you're fighting. he has the potential to be mad flashy doe

i didnt play much lucario in 2.1, so if he was more bread and butter then I cant imagine, because I still find him pretty bread and butter. just have to memorize what to do on certain weight characters at certain percents.

also, this is obvious, but i've heard people saying lucario has trouble doing stuff at high percents. yo just jab jab f-smash lol

Nair has a few decent setups. Jump cancelled up smash > nair, for example. It's also good for tech chasing after a side-b meteor. I wish the hitbox was constantly on both sides, though. I'm pretty sure it swings back and forth.

Lucario is (still) a character with a relatively high skill ceiling in a game with a relatively high skill ceiling. Some of the techs are going to end up being a little complicated. The basic stuff general to the game is the most important, but it's still the foundation for building new techniques on top of. SHFFL-ing probably seems like over-complicating the game to a casual player, yet it's one of the most important tools in advanced play.

 

[Spiffykins]

Down B is actually quite useful. Try short hop into down B into Force Palm. It's pretty sweet, since if you do the down B in the air, the landing lag seems to get cut out (whereas down B on the ground leaves you sitting there helpless for a moment). If you space it right, you can end up right behind them which sets up for a Force Palm.

Also, down B is really good for horizontal recovery still. Down B + wall cling (good on Yoshi's Island!) + up B + up B-aura cancel = lots of options to recover.

I don't think anyone would claim it's not useful, but I really miss how amazing it was for cutting out end lag and following up after landing a hit. It's still okay for that, I guess, but it just can't glue together combos like it used to.

 

[iLink]

Really fair is 60 degrees? I'ma test that **** tomorrow I admittedly haven't played as lucario much lately

They had the same angle prior to 2.5 but changed fair to a higher angle to allow it to combo better.

 

[theONEjanitor]

i love lucario's bair. it's like a mini ganon punch ^_^

 

[Greenpoe]

What moves do you guys usually go for with the on-hit cancel system?

I like to go for jab/dash attack into d-tilt, except d-tilt has a precise range (compared with f-tilt), although d-tilt is quite fast. I find the "easiest" combo to perform is just dash attack, f-tilt (since you just keep holding the stick and hit A twice), into a smash or forward B. I never really use up tilt at all.

...in the air, I have no idea what to do when I hit with a fair/dair/nair/whatever. In Brawl, I know I'd go for Fair->short hop->Fair->aura sphere or Force Palm, dunno if that'd still work in P:M or not. What do you guys go for?

 

[Spiffykins]

I use up tilt all the time. Lucario is actually really good at juggling, and it's the easiest thing to hit after a dash attack. It's fast, hits on both sides, and starts combos at a variety of percents. If you can hit it, dtilt is still better for setting up juggles, but his tilts can combo into each other pretty easily.

Long aerial combos for me usually involve fair and uair, and if I have an aura charge I'll sometimes use an up-b cancel to extend it. Side-b is good for ending fair strings, but don't expect to get the grab most of the time. If I have a platform to work with sometimes I can squeak out a bair after an uair as well. After I get the last hit in, I use down-b to chase after them and keep the pressure on. It doesn't extend combos very often but it's better than nothing and can force a favorable reset.

Aura sphere is sometimes good after ending combos (or just landing a hit) too. It won't always hit but it can maintain pressure and momentum. If it hits a shield you might get a grab, if it forces an air dodge you can punish, etc. Plus, a well spaced f-smash/d-tilt on shield followed by just holding an aura sphere is good against certain characters, especially if you're behind them.

 

[DrinkingFood]

After I get the last hit in, I use down-b to chase after them and keep the pressure on. It doesn't extend combos very often but it's better than nothing and can force a favorable reset.

2.1 down-b could be used to extend combos

 

[theONEjanitor]

if I hit confirm a jab, I almost always go for jab, jab, f-tilt, f-smash unless their percentage is too high. its just solid damage. sometimes upsmash instead of f-smash, but i dunno DI screws stuff up

at low/mid percent, I tend to try and punish with dash attack-uptilt. as mentioned, lucario's juggle game is on point. you definitely want your opponent in the air.

I poke with d-tilt a lot, and I throw out spaced ftilt - side b alot. ftilt has very deceptive range and this sequence usually not punishable on hit or shield. unless your opponent has great reflexes

when i'm trying to kill I do jab jab f-smash which often works depending on the weight of the character, or dash attack f-smash
also you can condition your opponent to shield by throwing out dash attacks and then switching to dash grabs and doing whatever you like to do after grabs.

in air, I generally use down-b atfter aerials (if anything at all. sometimes I just try to chase and hit them again). It's kind of hard to land the air grab except at the lowest percents, so I tend not to go for it. if Ive hit them too far away to continue comboing, I tend to down-b just to disorient the opponent and stay in motion. one of my favorite things to do is ledge hop f-air, down-b, follow up. so ninja like. but honestly if I hit someone with a f-air. odds are i'm just going to try a hit them with another f-air like it's brawl loll.
if i'm juggling and I have super, I will almost always try to continue the combo with an up-b cancel aerial. gotten several kills off the top like that

 

[CORY]

jab1-2-fsmash comboes? i know jab1-2-dsmash is a combo in training mode, on basically everyone every time.

for aerials i'm trying to get better at asc to do stuff like fair-asc-nair-[insert followup depending on position]. even just fair-asc-fair-asc-jump out is solid and quite fast. my problem is getting a fp instead of asc : / feels bad man.

and i concur with utilt. it's probably the best general use tilt after hitting with dash attack. dtilt is better on shields, i think, and it's very good at lower percentages where the opponent doesn't pop up as high.

 

[theONEjanitor]

it combos on people who are at a weight and percentage that jab jab lifts them off of the ground. also it combos on aerial opponents. i could just be dealing with bad DI. i'll test more. i'll also experiment more than jab jab dsmash, i think I just assumed that dsmash didn't reach at high percents.

 

[Spiffykins]

I'm don't really trust jab 1+2 > fsmash. If I get the first jab and the opponent is at kill percent, I immediately go for a super force palm or d/fsmash. There's just less risk of good DI messing you up. If someone knows for sure that jab 1+2 > fsmash is a true combo on whatever character at kill percent, please do tell, but I'm a bit skeptical.

I'm also curious about the frame data on fair > ASC > fair instead of fair > fair. How much faster is it? Does it noticeably let you combo fair > fair at higher percents?

 

[theONEjanitor]

is anyone having trouble with lucario's recovery? is there something I'm missing?
I feel like it is nigh impossible to sweetspot the ledge from low angles, making it hilariously easy to edgeguard him
having super helps for sure, but that's not always available. wall cling is an option on some stages.
i didnt play lucario in 2.1 so i may have missed out on something. i dunno i just feel like it's too easy to edgeguard lucario.
landing on stage with up b should have less ending lag.

 

[Spiffykins]

is anyone having trouble with lucario's recovery? is there something I'm missing?
I feel like it is nigh impossible to sweetspot the ledge from low angles, making it hilariously easy to edgeguard him
having super helps for sure, but that's not always available. wall cling is an option on some stages.
i didnt play lucario in 2.1 so i may have missed out on something. i dunno i just feel like it's too easy to edgeguard lucario.
landing on stage with up b should have less ending lag.

I agree, the landing lag is kinda frustrating. It was something they added in 2.5, but it is somewhat balanced by the fact that the last hit knocks them far enough away to safely recover. Before if you up-b'd at someone without cancelling they always got a free hit at the end.

As for sweetspotting, the fact that you can curve it is the only thing that makes it not terrible. I can sweetspot on most stages consistently as long as I'm coming somewhat diagonally, but if you're directly beneath it there's really no chance unless you walljump. Overall I'd say his recovery is still above average, but difficult to do effectively.

 

[theONEjanitor]

so im probably late, but I just realized that lucario has a decent moonwalk. lol this character just got a little bit more fun.

 

[iLink]

Since the 2.5 update, I've actually been able to sweet spot the ledge a lot more then I think I should be able to actually. Even if I slightly curve it near the ledge, I seem to just grab it.

For the guy asking about fair follow ups, just do an aura sphere cancel right after you hit with it. You have all the time in the world to look at their DI and follow with something else.

I'm usually looking for dash attack or fair hit confirms. Looking over some of my matches, I'm probably using dash attack a little to much though. I'm trying to use a little more dtilt now that it's so fast.

 

[Spiffykins]

I thought that was the point of sweetspotting, you just come in from the correct angle and you'll get a good ledge snap? I know that in vBrawl the range of Lucario's ledge snap was particularly long, so maybe that's why he can sweetspot rather effectively in combination with curving his recovery. Anyway, I haven't noticed any change to that in 2.5 myself.

 

[iLink]

I mean, usually he'll snap to it if he goes into it head first, but I've been able to snap on to it from weird angles that I don't think I should have been able to.

 

[theONEjanitor]

I almost never sweetspot if i come from a low angle. the up-b goes too far, and doesn't auto-snap. in vbrawl, most up-b's just autosnapped the ledge if you were anywhere near it. not so here. he just zooms past it and on the stage. (if you're coming from a low angle atleast, for some reason it lets you snap the ledge if you're coming from a high angle. no matter the distance it seems)
like i said maybe i'm missing something.

i'm still getting used to the distance the up b travels (which is decently far i guess) so I may just have to work on my angling better.

edit: just did some practicing, and you guys are right. I just need to get better at curving my recovery.

 

[Spiffykins]

Ah, I was about to explain that before the edit. It's definitely something worth practicing. It's a bit like learning to shorten spacies' side-b consistently.

 

[iLink]

Finally got some stuff recorded with a huge thanks to 8adge. I'll hopefully have a few more up a little later.

CF vs Lucario
Link vs Lucario
Ike vs Lucario

 

[batistabus]

That's some good stuff.

 

[theONEjanitor]

are there any particular stages you guys are liking/disliking? obv p:m stagelists aren't as bad, but how do you feel about small vs large stages, high platforms vs. low platforms vs no platforms?

 

[iLink]

It usually depends on the character for me. I'm partial to dreamland just because it gives me space to do what I want, but the wind shaking the stage bothers me to no end. Yoshi's story is good unless you are facing someone like bowser/ike/marth who's hitboxes take up a lot of space on the stage and make me feel I can't maneuver as well.

PS2 is pretty decent too I think.

I also went ahead and added a few more matches to my previous post

 

[iDare]

Hey! I’m kinda new here.

These forums are really good, and the community is incredible. I’ve been reading the posts here for some time since the v2.1 era. But I thought, Hey why not contribute as well? So I would like to share a little of me with you guys!

I’ve been a Lucario main since I was first introduced to Project M. It was on v2.1 that I took it on to improve on my skills and to take my game to competitive levels. Lucario v2.1 was on a league of his own, IMO. No other character could do what he did, the way he did, or even on a similar way. Due to his mostly unique OHC Mechanisms and High Level execution potential, he was a force to be reckoned with. Of course, if placed in the right hands.

I worked my way around him, and crafted my base/core with much enthusiasm on his potential. You see, in v2.1 Lucario was the only character I used. I guess you can only use a character so much, until he becomes like a part of you right? I waited upon v2.5’s release with much anticipation, and what I found felt like hitting a brick wall. It is true; Lucario’s changes from v2.1 to v2.5 are not far from drastic. Two weeks after its release I found myself in a state of denial, but it was not all in vain. The v2.5 gave me something I didn’t have in v2.1, it gave me other characters.

Despite it all, I still consider myself a Lucario main. It’s already been a month, and the new Lucario it’s starting to soak in. It’s like learning a new character, but it’s not since IMO Lucario’s concept stayed the same. He’s approach, links and chains are different but they still have some juice in them.

I will miss v2.1 Lucario, but I agree that something needed to be done. It’s just that I never would have imagined that the changes (although little, but a lot of them) would have such a drastic change on how he is now to be used. Nevertheless, I look forward to discussing and unlocking Lucario’s Potential, and with this new ASC mechanics it looks like it’s the next big thing.

 

[Spiffykins]

I'm glad there are other people who haven't given up on Lucario. I'm completely dedicated to the character myself, but if anything that just makes me saltier about the changes. I was just starting to get a handle on him when 2.5 came around and I had to unlearn almost everything. Anyway, I've made my case on the new Lucario several times already so I guess it doesn't need repeating.

ASC certainly is one his most valuable assets. There are a lot of ways you can use it to poke and pressure without over-committing, which is pretty vital for 2.5 Lucario. I've been practicing shenanigans with b-reversed ASC a lot. If nothing else, it's rather funny to fair someone in the face and then immediately start flying away as they try to punish.

 

[iLink]

I play Lucario pretty much the same as in 2.1, except maybe a lot more dash dancing and less downb.

 

[drsusredfish]

why was c-stick canceling up-b taken out?

 

[theONEjanitor]

i didnt play lucario in 2.1 and i'm glad because i probably would be pissed right about now

 

[Magus420]

Up-b cancel doesn't cancel directly into an attack like down-b, and neutral and side supers don't activate with c-stick. Also lets you use c-stick A/SDI for edgeteching when up-bing without activating the cancel.

 

[Spiffykins]

So I just discovered that Mario's fsmash out-ranges Lucario's. Just though you guys should know in case you were looking for more depressing things about Lucario.