Lucaryu Official Discussion thread

[Eggz]

Ganons gay.

Does luca's dsmash seem to come out faster or am i trippin?

Played him a bunch tonight and hes still kinda dope

 

[Steam]

Ganons gay.

Does luca's dsmash seem to come out faster or am i trippin?

Played him a bunch tonight and hes still kinda dope

ganon is so strong.

certain characters troll him though.

like zard :T

 

[iLink]

Lucario's dsmash is faster for more frame tight shield pressure. I think dtilt might also be like a frame or 2 faster.

Only gimmicky thing about lucario was how retardedly good his dash attack was that all anyone needed to do was herpderp dash attack and sideb so they never utilized most of his tools.

Luckily lucario still wrecks ganon so i can actually play this game.

 

[shanus]

The key thing about 2.5 lucario is he is less bread and butter than he was in 2.1. We stress tested his changes with Magus, Fuzzyness, and Vwins and he can do a ton of cool stuff more, but it requires more creativity and variety in moveset.

I'll post a full changelist once we wrap up the other characters.

The reason he feels worse is your likely still sticking to the same ole' bnb's which won't work as well. As a hint, I'd say try and use the following more for more unique follow-ups:

-Aura sphere cancel's on the ground directly into wait (rather than shield)
-DownB is reversible on the ground
-Downsmash is faster
-Dtilt/ftilt are more useful

etcetc

 

[DrinkingFood]

down-b is also reversable in the air, don't know why you needed to add that modifier
Iirc IASA after invincibility of down-b is actually quicker now, though the startup of the move is slower.

 

[Magus420]

D-tilt hits on 5 from 9 and d-smash 12 from 18-19 or something. Up-b to d-smash works well to kill if you have a charge. Down-b cancel to f-smash covers a lot of ground quickly. The outer aura hitbox on d-tilt meteors on grounded people. Couple of his moves have that now like f-air sends more upwards on the aura and u-air is stronger there (flub u-air combos really well). F-tilt is really good on block. It combos on shield into side-b if fresh. F-air side-b works with neutral DI, but how you're moving is important, and start it during hitlag.

 

[Yurya]

Well he only has one special to reliably air combo into: Force Palm.
This will lead to repetitive air combos and a general boring quality.
He will be viable but that doesn't mean many players will pick him up especially in light of how many characters there are in PM that will be just as viable and more dynamic.
I never thought Lucario on-hit-cancels was a clear-cut fit for him and I think that a mechanic like that fits someone who has the specials which it like G&W.

Spoiler

He could guarantee Buckets, extend combos with Chef's frying pan and dairs out of Trampoline, plus he also has the 9 different Judgements.
I don't mean to talk about G&W on the Lucario boards but Lucario doesn't fit the on-hit-cancel as well as G&W would.

I think Lucario would do better if his airborne attacks (including Up-smash) popped him up and allowed him to extend combos.
I think that would be better for keeping him viable and his own flexible style.

Sorry just an idea I'd had that I wanted to share.

 

[Generically Epic]

He got Peter Petereli'd.

 

[iLink]

Well he only has one special to reliably air combo into: Force Palm.
This will lead to repetitive air combos and a general boring quality.
He will be viable but that doesn't mean many players will pick him up especially in light of how many characters there are in PM that will be just as viable and more dynamic.
I never thought Lucario on-hit-cancels was a clear-cut fit for him and I think that a mechanic like that fits someone who has the specials which it like G&W.

Spoiler

He could guarantee Buckets, extend combos with Chef's frying pan and dairs out of Trampoline, plus he also has the 9 different Judgements.
I don't mean to talk about G&W on the Lucario boards but Lucario doesn't fit the on-hit-cancel as well as G&W would.

I think Lucario would do better if his airborne attacks (including Up-smash) popped him up and allowed him to extend combos.
I think that would be better for keeping him viable and his own flexible style.

Sorry just an idea I'd had that I wanted to share.

Have you played with Lucario? His usmash DOES put him into the air.

GaW with the cancel system wouldn't work nearly as well as Lucario does, just because of ASC alone.

And Lucario doesn't need to combo into sideb in the air. Fair > reverse ASC > Bair is a great finisher now with the angle change to Fair.

 

[Magus420]

If you're not comboing into up-b at all you're missing out. Up-b cancel to n/u-air or d-air->side-b in air combos is really good.

 

[Steam]

Luckily lucario still wrecks ganon so i can actually play this game.

that matchup seemed even or in ganon's favor. lol.

only new character that I think wrecks ganon is charizard. because nair :T

 

[iLink]

that matchup seemed even or in ganon's favor. lol.

only new character that I think wrecks ganon is charizard. because nair :T

You are crazy, Lucario easily trumped ganon. He doesn't wreck him as hard anymore but still seems in his favor. Ivysaur also does fairly well against Ganon.


I'm still working out on implementing upb into combos. I usually like to save my charges in case I need that extra airdodge at the end of upb to recover or using it to make sideb KO. I have messed around with doing an attack string on the ground into upb > dsmash a few times though. Whenever I try upb > uair, I almost always seem to miss the uair lol.

 

[Steam]

ivysaur seems good against ganon.

and I don't really see how lucario would wreck ganon. a lot of people basically 0-death ganon already, lucario's just more linear and can't outspace ganon.

I just wish lucario was more like he was in brawl, : (

 

[iLink]

Lucario could basically dash dance in ganon's face all day and wait for him to whiff an attack and go in with dash attack.

I don't have any videos of me up but there is this, although it was from 2.1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsYexaCtjhA

 

[Steam]

the ganon's first action in the match was nairing the wrong way... lol. It was also on FD, which I consider to be ganon's worst stage.

ganon generally doesn't get as easily suffocated as he used to (in melee) because his Ftilt is so godlike now. it's why ganon (IMO) beats falcon now.

 

[iLink]

That wasn't the point.

You saw that if ganon missed an attack, lucario would just go in with dash attack and start up his momentum. Lucario hardly needs to commit in the MU compared to Ganon. Also his ftilt hardly does anything to stopping people from suffocating him compared to stuff like his jab.

 

[Steam]

his ftilt is just about is crazy as his jab is frame wise... it's insane.

and I haven't played lucarios enough to know what ganon can DI out of or crouch cancel > jab. that ganon just kinda seemed to take in the butt :T

I also didn't really see ganon just do an empty jump. which is good.

I'm just glad lucario's dash attack is less stupid now (supposedly). anything that makes his neutral game less braindead would bring me one step closer to playing him.

 

[iLink]

You might be imagining things. Ganon's jab has 2 frames of startup, while his ftilt has 8.

Lucario's dash attack doesn't give him instant shield pressure or an approach from a good distance away while still being reliable for situations that needed it.

 

[Steam]

it certainly doesn't feel like 8 frames.

either way it's on roids compared to melee. soooo much safer.

the main thing I thought was stupid about it is instantly canceling it into command grab on block... a lot of the things they did with him made him more of a marvel character when I'd prefer him to be more of a street fighter character. he honestly played a lot like a street fighter character in brawl, he was super footsie based... now it's just... go in...

 

[Eaode]

holy **** that video. I knew why they nerfed down B

but now I KNOW why they nerfed down B

 

[iLink]

I think the nerf to downb was mostly so lucario actually had to commit to something if you hit a shield instead of always having a free escape.

 

[Hashtag]

Lucarios trash now. The down b nerf completely crippled his movement. Idk what heart of the cards **** youre on about, but lucario aint worth playin anymore.

This is the truth, I maimed him hard in 2.1, played quite a few good players with him and I would like to believe I was very, very good with lucario. His "changes" hurt him more than I think a lot of you realize. As "minor" as they may be.

At the very least, they could have given lucario a better shield to defend against the change in pressure he will now be subject too because people won't be as worried about his ability to pressure due to the gaps in his ability to do so now.

- Kaiten

 

[Eggz]

Just read magus' n shanus' posts. Ill note that n play around.

 

[shanus]

This is the truth, I maimed him hard in 2.1, played quite a few good players with him and I would like to believe I was very, very good with lucario. His "changes" hurt him more than I think a lot of you realize. As "minor" as they may be.

At the very least, they could have given lucario a better shield to defend against the change in pressure he will now be subject too because people won't be as worried about his ability to pressure due to the gaps in his ability to do so now.

- Kaiten

As stated previously, everything will feel like a nerf if you attempt to play him just like 2.1.

However, if you branch out into moves that felt lesser used in 2.1 that have since been improved you will realize there are a lot of ways to still be a great character.

@Eggz: Looking forward to it - post some vids at some point.

 

[ItsRainingGravy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsYexaCtjhA

Lucario for final boss tier.

 

[Tero.]

That Vwins Video was amazing!
Are there more?
Also I want some new videos from 2.5
Eggz go make them

 

[Eggz]

K, lucario is still sick. Ohc into sphere cancels is the ****. Jab tilt game is just as important to me as it was prepatch so i havent noticed any difference there. Still hard as **** to kill, but i dont mind. Ill be postin vids in a bit.

 

[iLink]

One thing I definitely appreciate is the change to fair. It's actually reliable to follow up in an air-to-air situation and have been getting most of my KO's with it if I follow with a reverse ASC Bair or just a Nair.

I got a question about his dash attack and dtilt though. His dtilt seems to have a meteor/spike (not sure which) hitbox inside of the hitbox at his toe. What purpose is this and how am I actually supposed to space it? It's literally just about the same size as the regular dtilt hitbox. Dash attack also seems to have smaller hitboxes within the regular hitboxes.

For reference:

Spoiler

First active hitbox of dash attack

The rest of dash attack

Dtilt

 

[standardtoaster]

iLink, hitboxes with same id replace the previous ones. Brawlbox doesn't show that properly. It just displays them both at the same time. The foot hitboxes are overlapped because there's one for air only and one for ground only.

 

[iLink]

Ah alright so the smaller hitboxes in the dash attack are what it should be and the larger ones are the ones from the initial hitbox that shouldn't be active.

As for dtilt, that makes sense.

Spoiler

Offensive Collision: Id=2, Bone=LToeN, Damage=8, ShieldDamage=0, Direction=285, BaseKnockback=45, WeightKnockback=0, KnockbackGrowth=120, Size=4.25, Z Offset=0, Y Offset=-1, X Offset=2.5, TripRate=0%, HitlagMultiplier=x1.5, SDIMultiplier=x1, Flags=39812C95

Offensive Collision: Id=3, Bone=LToeN, Damage=6, ShieldDamage=0, Direction=80, BaseKnockback=35, WeightKnockback=0, KnockbackGrowth=100, Size=4.25, Z Offset=0, Y Offset=-1, X Offset=2.5, TripRate=0%, HitlagMultiplier=x1, SDIMultiplier=x1, Flags=39822C15

Those are the offensive collisions for the hitboxes on the toe. Is the air only one the first one with the 39812C95 flag?

 

[standardtoaster]

Yeah, that'd be the air only one.

 

[Magus420]

xxx1xxxx is ground only, 2 is air only, and 3 is both.

 

[iLink]

I guess that would make sense or else I would have been able to use it as a meteor edgeguard. The direction would have to be more then 360 for it to be a spike and not a meteor right?

 

[standardtoaster]

yea h

 

[Eggz]

Been messing with aerial ohc-> aura sphere cancel -> waveland onto platform for a follow up.

Its like a harder version of shine wavelanding with spacies in melee

Done some dope **** with it, thought id share and see what anyone else can style wit it

 

[iLink]

I should do that more. I usually end up using my second jump with the ASC combos so it seems like a good way to have them going a little longer.

 

[CORY]

can someone explain how to wavebounce? i do it on accident randomly and have gotten cool results (like: fair into an opponent's shield, try to asc, but wavebounce-asc instead, throwing myself backwards, as i input fair again and hit them as they drop the shield), but i don't really understand how it's supposed to be done.

 

[Eggz]

The **** is wavebouncing

 

[DrinkingFood]

In project M we more commonly call it B reversing or reverse b-reversing (depending on if you face the other way or stay facing the same way when you change momentum). It's the use of a special followed by an input in the direction opposite what your character is facing to make them suddenly reverse their momentum. vBawrlers use it as a mobility option, but it doesn't see as much light in P:M because we aren't restricted to essentially just walking and jumping otherwise...

 

[iLink]

Lucario's is pretty good with Aurasphere to shift his momentum in the air to dodge something and still be able to act out of it right away. Also has some use as a fake crossup mixup.

Cory try jumping forward and pressing B and then back just a few frames after, long enough to just not get a sideb to input. You can do it by jumping backwards too and pressing back on the direction opposite he is facing.