Lucario Stage Discussion

[Sand-Trap]

I haven't seen a thread about this as of yet, and I feel that it's very important to have a discussion about which tournament-legal stages Lucario both does well on and has trouble on. By the end of this discussion, we should know which levels to take advantage of with Lucario.

So, what are your thoughts?

Personally, I feel that Luigi's Mansion can be a very good level for Lucario. High ceiling, hard to get knocked off horizontally, and recovering is aided by the little platforms about mid-height on each side of the mansion. Staying inside the lower level of the mansion can lead to a high-percentage Lucario dishing out double the damage while being able to control the pace of the lower level fighting through Aura Sphere. Also, the hitbox of the Forward Smash + the lag when it hits against the lower level pillars = ridiculousness.

Tournament Stages:

-Smashville
-Battlefield
-Delfino Plaza
-Battleship Halberd
-Frigate Orpheon
-Castle Siege
-Lylat Cruise
-Pirate Ship
-Mario Circuit
-Norfair
-Pictochat
-Pokemon Stadium 1
-Corneria
-Green Greens
-Rainbow Cruise
-Brinstar
-Skyworld
-Green Hill Zone
-Hanenbow
-Jungle Japes
-Yoshi's Island (Melee)

Advantage:

-Final Destination
-Luigi's Mansion
-Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
-Shadow Moses

Neutral:



Disadvantage:

 

[Betaz]

I actually don't really like Luigi's Mansion for Lucario :/ honestly I think FD is actually a good pick for him (>.< godd***it...I hate FD...it's so..bland) or Yoshi's story (^.^ yay!)....hell even Delfino I feel is fun for him

 

[Sand-Trap]

Just saying which levels you like and don't like won't help the discussion much, imo. If you could provide an explanation for each stage, then we'd be able to see both perspectives and thus come to a conclusion.

Why don't you like Luigi's Mansion for Lucario? The other real downside I've noticed is that the pillars can hinder Aura Sphere, but that slight con is outweighed by the great pros for the level.

FD is flat obv, which is great for Aura Sphere. Being a very spacious level complete with a cling-able wall as an alternate recovery, I agree that it's a strong stage for Lucario. But I'm especially curious as to the opinions concerning counter stages for and against Lucario, tbh.

 

[Browny]

i said this a while ago...

----

So far i think Shadow moses island IS lucarios stage, no edges to other people to edgehog his recovery, his final smash is practically undodgeable when the pillars are up and he can get to huge %'s by staying down on the lower platforms. only way to kill him is from attacking from below or upsmash, and we all know how his d-air makes short work of that Seems to me like the perfect stage to compliment his unique style.

----

Since then ive figured out how to tech to walls. you can survive the hardest hitting attacks (home run bat included) if you shiled as you hit the wall. just try to make sure the walls stay there lol

i cbf thinking about tourney-worthy stages, who knows whats legal and not

 

[Betaz]

Just saying which levels you like and don't like won't help the discussion much, imo. If you could provide an explanation for each stage, then we'd be able to see both perspectives and thus come to a conclusion.

Why don't you like Luigi's Mansion for Lucario? The other real downside I've noticed is that the pillars can hinder Aura Sphere, but that slight con is outweighed by the great pros for the level.

FD is flat obv, which is great for Aura Sphere. Being a very spacious level complete with a cling-able wall as an alternate recovery, I agree that it's a strong stage for Lucario. But I'm especially curious as to the opinions concerning counter stages for and against Lucario, tbh.

FD for the reasons you said above...the lip of the stage for most of the characters is a hindrance...while for Lucario it can be a blessing because of the wall cling.

Yoshi's story for the obvious reason for wall clinging, it also provides a nice platform.

Delfino Plaza...:/ idk I actually just listed that one as a fun stage atm I cannot think of any advantages or disadvantages for this level.

as For counterpicks against Lucario...>.> I'd have to say Lylat Cruise in some ways

I don't like Luigi's mansion for Lucario for the same reason you do like it...people live forever

as for Shadow Moses....djbrowny pretty much covered it and is a good stage to use for Lucarios...as I don't think Lucario has any trouble KOing upwards...

EDIT: also Luigi's Mansion can mess with your FP chaingrabs because of those tiny platforms near the bottom...although you could do it in the middle there is no ceiling to protect you if you **** up

 

[Kitamerby]

as for Shadow Moses....djbrowny pretty much covered it and is a good stage to use for Lucarios...as I don't think Lucario has any trouble KOing upwards...

Double Team and the situational Usmash and Uair are the only moves that KO upwards. Also, when will people realize that edgehogging is NOT a problem for Lucario? Seriously. D:

EDIT: also Luigi's Mansion can mess with your FP chaingrabs because of those tiny platforms near the bottom...although you could do it in the middle there is no ceiling to protect you if you **** up

Yes, but thanks to the platforms, Lucario can survive to massive damages if he techs right. Sure, others can too to a degree, but nobody else gets STRONGER when they take more damage.


...I still don't think Lucario mixes too well with water stages against anyone with a spike. Bleh.

 

[Nodrak]

Actually I think there was a thread or two like this, but lets see how this one fares.

First off, a list if tournament banned stages would be good. Now, I know these are still currently under debate, so I'm calling the ones that are 100% banned and recognized as such. The rest may or may not be banned, may or may not be neutral or counterpickable but that doesn't matter, because this is the Lucario forum, not the Tournament or Stage forum.

Banned:
75m
Big Blue
Flat Zone 2
Green Greens
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mushroomy Kingdom
New Pork City
Onett
Port Town Aero Dive
Rumble Falls
Spear Pillar
Summit
WarioWare

(correct me if I'm wrong)

Now, personally I like Luigi's mansion. I hated it at first, I truly did but then I looked at it from my opponent's angle (mainly because he counterpicked this stage on me). They see Lucario, they think 'Aura Sphere and aerials' So they counterpick Luigi's mansion thinking the pillars will be effective shield against Aura Sphere and that I can't use aerials to their fullest extent if he stays below the ceiling. Now here's why I love it:
-High ceiling, for the times I do end up getting knocked sky high.
-My opponent finds out that he doesn't have nearly enough time to run and hide behind a pillar when I shoot an Aura Sphere
-My opponent learns that my grounded Lucario can be just as strong as my aerial Lucario
-Extreme amounts of johns when he realizes how much I like to tech off the ceiling that he's been fighting so hard to keep.

On top of that (although it's rare to ever get a chance to do this) you can float under Luigi's mansion (not from edge to edge, I'm actually not sure about that one) but when recovering if they aren't edgehogging me I like to float under the stage then use a curved Extreme Speed so that the entire stage is guarding me until I reach those precious invincibility frames on the edge.

 

[Sand-Trap]

Lucario does better at high percentages compared to other characters, so stages that keep Lucario (or any character, for that matter) should give Lucario an advantage in that respect. That includes Luigi's Mansion and Final Destination.

Shadow Moses, from my experience and reading the boards, is banned at most tournaments, so I'm not going to worry about it.

I agree with Yoshi's Story, to an extent. You can't cling to the wall too low (around where the %'s for each character are). Also, the ghost pushing the green platform can serve as an alternate recovery if you're in a weird spot to cling to the wall (too close or too far away), and is another option, and the more options, the better.

On Delfino Plaza, you can drop from the edge, do a fair, and easily get back to either edge of the bottom platform, which can be hard for the opponent to counter since you're coming from below the platform. Doing Lucario's dair while the opponent is in the water is also an added bonus.

EDIT: I'll update the initial post with stages that are most likely able to be used during a tournament. We can then organize them into "Advantage/Disadvantage/Neutral" categories.

 

[Nodrak]

Yeah, sorry djbrowny, Shadow Moses has walls. Even though they are breakable, it means infinite chaingrabs for some characters, auto-ban

 

[Sand-Trap]

Nodrak, I'm not sure about Castle Siege, Green Greens, or PictoChat, but just to be safe, we'll leave them open for placement in the three categories. The only reason I'm leaving Mario Circuit as unbanned is because my first major tournament is going to allow it, retardedly =/.

 

[Kitamerby]

Personally, I believe Lucario does well on any level without edges but a wall.

Avoiding edgeguards in Frigate Orpheon only to wallcling back up as they hopelessly try to recover back onto the platform as it moves away is an awesome feeling.

 

[Everence]

Not sure about where you guys play, but where I play, Castle Siege and Shadow Moses are not banned. In fact, Castle Siege is considered neutral (I'd dispute that but I cbf) and Shadow Moses is a counter-pick.

Personally I think Shadow Moses is a great stage for Lucario like several other people mentioned as well. When both you and your opponent are at high percentages (100%+) I find that his uair usually star KOs, a trait not overly common in Brawl. Wall clinging may be somewhat useful under certain circumstances there too.

My brother used to pick Luigi's Mansion as a counterpick against me for the same reasons stated by Nodrak. He too later realised that it was more disadvantageous to himself rather than me so all went well.

PS: I think Jungle Japes is considered counter-pick aswell, in which case I'd consider it disadvantageous to Lucario, as his recovery is limited to edges, no edges to cling to.

PPS: We have a system here that certain stages (such as Shadow Moses and Bridge of Eldin) that cannot be chosen by chaingrabbers, such as D3, but can be chosen by the other player if they so wish.

 

[Nodrak]

Castle Siege: When the level changes, you can be trapped under the new floor and simply die with no way to recover
Green Greens: Same as Melee, an exploding block spawning on top of a player to kill them is the reason it's banned
PictoChat: Drawing's get drawn almost instantly, which means if a piranha plant is drawn and you're at 50%-ish you're dead, end of story.

But i'll take off castle siege and green greens, if anyone else mentions pictochat, i'll take it off too

Edit: Sorry bout Jungle Japes, I had a list of all maps in Brawl and was just erasing non-banned ones. I completely missed it, it's gone now.

Edit #2: Avoiding double post

Final destination is final destination. No platforms, just one long stage. Usually characters like Pikachu may pick this because there's no ceilings to block thunder or anything to avoid spamming jolts, however, Lucario can be just as spammy with BAS. So it's a slight advantage at least against characters who cant spam. What gives Lucario an advantage over most other characters is that Lucario can cling and wall jump from the lip under the edge where, as both Sand-Trap and BetaZ said, most other characters are only hindered by this lip. Because of this I'd say Lucario has an advantage over other characters on this map. I wouldn't say it's a good stage to counterpick in hopes of gimping other characters, but it's a good Lucario stage. Although other characters have wall clings, They lack a good upB to get to that point to make it a decent recovery, Extreme Speed can be aimed or curved in any way the player needs.

Pokemon Stadium1:
Wall cling under the lip (which again, most characters are hindered by) and you can walljump from the edge, down to the bottom of that round thing. Definatly an advantage over other characters in that respect. We can also take advantage of the windmill and wall (mountain stage) with wall cling and wall jumps. Besides that maybe snake has some good mine tricks or pit can use some fancy arrow shots but I'd give this map to those who can wall-jump/cling.

P.S. What about Skyworld, Hanenbow, Green Hill Zone, Bridge of Eldin and the other 2 Yoshi stages under "tournament stages"?

 

[Sand-Trap]

Pokemon Stadium1:
Wall cling under the lip (which again, most characters are hindered by) and you can walljump from the edge, down to the bottom of that round thing. Definatly an advantage over other characters in that respect. We can also take advantage of the windmill and wall (mountain stage) with wall cling and wall jumps. Besides that maybe snake has some good mine tricks or pit can use some fancy arrow shots but I'd give this map to those who can wall-jump/cling.

I've noticed that sometimes the ledges can be very glitchy on this stage, and my friends have noticed as well. Sometimes it seems like I should 100% grab onto the edge on the right side of the stage, but instead I'll just fall right through. It's not like I'm fastfalling through the edge, it's just...gay.

Then again, you can take advantage of an opponent on a platform easily with Utilts and SHFF'd Nairs. Not sure yet...other opinions?

Jungle Japes: I thought it had edges? Like, 6 edges, no? I haven't tested extensively but you may be able to do some neat tricks from ledge to ledge using Extreme Speed, or just his floaty jump, but the risk of getting owned by a random crocodile is too great, imo.

EDIT: I'll add those stages in, I had just assumed that they were not legal, but since it's still very cloudy, it doesn't hurt to put the stages there.

 

[Milln]

Pictochat and Luigi's Mansion are my favorite stages. The drawings are drawn instantly, but they don't IMMEDIATELY take effect. There's like a half second for you to realize that you need to gtfo of the way with an air dodge if you're at the exact area. The only thing that could possibly screw someone over is the spikes, but that's only if you're at that exact height and over 80%. Piranha Plant does not kill at 50% unless you're DI-ing the incredibly wrong way. Even then, it's iffy.

Yoshi's Island Brawl is fantastic and I consider it Lucario's Stage simply because of the walls of the center platform and how far the sides are. The center platform is easily ShNair-able, too.

 

[Silvran]

Frigate Orpheon is, in my opinion, one of Luc's best stages. He's the only one who has an easy time recovering on the side with the moving platform due to wall cling, platforms are nice due to disjointed hitboxes reaching through them (I do a lot of what I call platform fighting, so it works for me, not sure how much others use it), and when it flips, it's easy to lob aura spheres the length of the stage.

 

[DarkDragoon]

Frigate Orpheon is, in my opinion, one of Luc's best stages. He's the only one who has an easy time recovering on the side with the moving platform due to wall cling, platforms are nice due to disjointed hitboxes reaching through them (I do a lot of what I call platform fighting, so it works for me, not sure how much others use it), and when it flips, it's easy to lob aura spheres the length of the stage.

I posted pretty much this on another, similar, thread.
-DD

 

[Greenpoe]

I think Battlefield is Lucario's best stage. It doesn't have anything fancy like Shadow Moses or Frigate Orpheon, but the amazingly fluent combos that those platforms allow for create an excellent stage for Lucario.

 

[Nodrak]

Actually Greenpoe, you might be onto something there. Most characters who are on top of a platform while their opponent is under have to jump or get punished for falling through, Lucario can SHDair immediatly hitting the person below.

 

[tedward2000]

I think Battlefield is Lucario's best stage. It doesn't have anything fancy like Shadow Moses or Frigate Orpheon, but the amazingly fluent combos that those platforms allow for create an excellent stage for Lucario.

Im going to have to disagree with you. Its because of those platforms that make it a pain. The highest platform to be exact, "run away central".

BoE, is personally one of lucarios best maps. It has the flatness and open sky of FD, with a twist the center will go away, giving wall cling spots and aerial combat options. And for those who can't wall cling the sides of FD very well (my biggest problem, and looking for tips), theres no worry of that on BoE. Just watch out for the pig.
-T2

 

[Greenpoe]

Im going to have to disagree with you. Its because of those platforms that make it a pain. The highest platform to be exact, "run away central".

BoE, is personally one of lucarios best maps. It has the flatness and open sky of FD, with a twist the center will go away, giving wall cling spots and aerial combat options. And for those who can't wall cling the sides of FD very well (my biggest problem, and looking for tips), theres no worry of that on BoE. Just watch out for the pig.
-T2

Bridge of Eldin is a banned stage, isn't it? The walk-off part means a smart enemy will camp near the edge to KO you at a low percent.

 

[tedward2000]

Bridge of Eldin is a banned stage, isn't it? The walk-off part means a smart enemy will camp near the edge to KO you at a low percent.

hmm... that it is.
Its still a great stage for Lucario regardless.

 

[Nodrak]

There's a lot of 'banned' stages that aren't banned at every tourny or in some areas, so it's best to keep it open to as many as possible until the stages become more finalized.

Here's a question, what do you guys think of hanenbow for Lucario? In a tourny match, I'd smack the person if they counterpicked me there but in friendlies I love it. My friend Pit will use his HIYANANANANA on a flat leaf and I'll charge an Aura Sphere on the bottom left leaf and we rock out.

In terms of playability, I dont like it. It forces me to use less aura spheres since they get absorbed by the level so easily. With that said, I think most spammy characters in general (fox/falco, pikachu ect) are somewhat hindered by this level, since the floor's can be changed to avoid spam or to absorb energy projectiles

Edit:
Lucario can fall to his death if he Double Teams the rising lava in Norfair

 

[phi1ny3]

You know, I never really liked Hanenbow, except with Lucario, but that's because I don't really use AS. Although it does hinder FP chain, it also allows aerial power to be used, but also, it's not a wall-cling friendly stage.

 

[Sand-Trap]

Frigate Orpheon: I also like this stage for Lucario. Forcing the opponent into a bad situation on the right side is something that we should focus on each time we play there.

Battlefield: Seems smaller than some of the other stages, imo. Platforms are nice for Lucario due to being able to hit players on the platform very safely via Utilt, being able to hit below as previously mentioned via Dair, and setting up for Fair-related combos (nice place to land a Nair, so you can immediately go into another attack). On the other hand, the platforms give the opponent an easily out to Lucario's Aura Spheres, and helps campers such as Pit/Pikachu/Zelda/Fox/Falco a solid, safe area to spam. Hrmmm...not sure what to think about this level...definitely depends on the match-up, obv.

Hanenbow: ...So what are the advantages for Lucario playing here, again? lol.

 

[Greenpoe]

On Frigate Orpheon, with a perfectly timed up-throw just before the stage turns, the stage can prevent them from recovering! (NOTE: I've only done this once...)

 

[Nodrak]

Frigate Orpheon: I also like this stage for Lucario. Forcing the opponent into a bad situation on the right side is something that we should focus on each time we play there.

Slight problem; if we get knocked off, we can wall-cling. That itself is an advantage but if we have already used our extremespeed (most likely to get to the cling) the opponent just has to foot-stool jump off us and we're doomed.

 

[Tallen]

if it has platforms it is good enough for me. quick airs and the opponent will never see what got him...

 

[Sand-Trap]

Slight problem; if we get knocked off, we can wall-cling. That itself is an advantage but if we have already used our extremespeed (most likely to get to the cling) the opponent just has to foot-stool jump off us and we're doomed.

True, but that would require either the Lucario just sitting around wall-clinging long enough for the opponent to get the footstool jump off, or the Lucario constantly wall-clinging so much that the opponent already knows where to go when you recover. Neither of those should really happen if you're playing properly, imo. Bounce immediately after the wall-cling, and keep your recoveries varied.

 

[Nodrak]

I mentioned it because I just got out of a match where the enemy was waiting on the edge to hit me or something, he saw that my only way back was to cling > walljump (unless I wanted to get hit by him directly). The second my extreme speed propelled me he jumped down, then jumped back, pretty much screwing me over. Of course this doesn't happen to often, but it kinda ticked me off =( I hate dieing like that

 

[Nodrak]

I'm wondering, what do people think of Brinstar, Castle Siege and Rainbow cruise for Lucario. I have a tourny in a few weeks, no idea which one I'll want to ban and I'm not really fond of any of them. I'm leaning more towards Castle Siege simply because you can fall right through the ground while transitioning between rooms. But besides that Lucario seems to be alright on the stage.

P.S. 14 days between posts doesn't count as double posting!

 

[Ark22]

I don't think that Rainbow Cruise is necessarily a good level for Lucario in all situations, but it can be a good counterpick against ground based characters.

It is almost always moving so you will have to rely on aerials more than ground attacks. Luckily, Lucario has better aerials than most other characters.

Second, it favors the character with the better recovery. Extremespeed has a lot of lag on it when you can't cancel it by grabbing a ledge or wallclinging so this would put Lucario at a slight disadvantage over some characters.

It is a good counterpick against Snake since he can't plant his traps and his aerials are slow and unwieldy. It also benefits Lucario over ground based characters. Still, it is a bad choice against characters with great aerials and recovery like MK and Jigglypuff.

 

[PhoenixAlpha]

I agree that Rainbow cruise can be either good or bad for Lucario. Most of the platforms are close enough together that you shouldn't need to use ExtremeSpeed. But, if you get hit out too far you may have to do it.

While you have a lack of cling-able walls and edges, you may be able to recover safely just by having several "crappy" places to recover, and praying that they don't predict where you want to go.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

wifi waiting room is insane for lucario...just sayin

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Yoshi's Island Pipes is probably not the best stage with it's slanted edges and low cealing.

Bumped because it deserves to be recognized as the original non-character specific stage discussion, and is listed as such in the official Lucario links guide.

 

[Eisenherz]

wifi waiting room is insane for lucario...just sayin

lol


After reading some of the posts, I now know why Shadow Moses Island is my favorite stage. =p

 

[tedward2000]

lol


After reading some of the posts, I now know why Shadow Moses Island is my favorite stage. =p

Cause its the pinball capital of the world?
or that everyone lives to be over %150?
-t2

 

[Eisenherz]

Cause its the pinball capital of the world?
or that everyone lives to be over %150?
-t2

I've always fared better on that stage than all the others. Plus, since I'm obviously a Lucario main, and the more he takes the more he dishes out, and it's hard to die on that stage, I can dish out a lot more damage (which has probably been said 40 times already, but hey).

It makes sense for SMI to be one of Lucario's top stages, but I'm no guru and I'm kinda stupid when it comes to strategy. I just "wing it".

 

[Sand-Trap]

I really like Norfair for Lucario. Huge, huge level, multiple ledges to Extreme Speed to safely, and more platforms than any other stage to take advantage of.

 

[Geekhead]

i like delfino plaza not really sure why tho.