Social Lucario Social: Aura Dog Days of Summer

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I would rather fight Cloud over Mario, Sheik, or Fox any day.

I don't think Cloud is a -3, I think it is even or at worst -1. I've been practicing with Cloud a bit and he has some pretty big weaknesses. Every time I try to recover as Cloud I worry about getting gimped. Cloud does not really kill outside of Limit Break stuff and FSmash until like 120%. Surely you know how to play around Little Mac when he has the KO punch charged. Think of playing around a Little Mac with a big sword that you can shield.

Oh and one other tidbit his Limit Break neutral B has laser priority.

Keep calm and charge Aura Sphere. We should also be a little less afraid to go for gimps since our speed got buffed.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

I would crosspost my SD discussion, but this summed it up.

Welcome to our first -3. Sit in shield against him or die. Literally only way to win is go for early gimps before FT + Rage kills us before 60%

Lol there aren't even any -3s in this game period. They're all -2's. Even **** like Rosa-Ness is -2

And lol you're acting like FT is an actual good move. Just look at it. Frame 16 and no shield damage with an ish hitbox. Just respect it and force him to use Climhazzard to recover and you're good.

And then Limit Cross Slash kills around 110 (which is his best limit break btw. It's not even close to -3 lmao

 

[BugCatcherWill]

Oops accidentally quoted myself and posted instead of editing something. Don't ask how

 

[Nysyr]

Lol there aren't even any -3s in this game period. They're all -2's. Even **** like Rosa-Ness is -2

And lol you're acting like FT is an actual good move. Just look at it. Frame 16 and no shield damage. Just respect it and force him to use Climhazzard to recover and you're good.

And then Limit Cross Slash kills around 110 (which is his best limit break btw. It's not even close to -3 lmao

The move isn't frame 16, as if you are in the hitbox range after the first few frames, there's a time freeze. The move can be combo'd fairly easily, and air dodge baited with his insanely stupid U-air.

You aren't ever gonna touch a good cloud with Lucario, his range and speed is too good. I'll let future tournament results speak.

Edit: It will be as cringe worthy as watching any of the Lucario vs ZSS sets.

 

[Pitbuller26]

I've actually played Cloud vs. Lucario in Winner's Finals and lost 3-0.

FT isn't what we have to worry about. It's Cloud being in the lead with Limit Break active. The moment we touch his shield, that's LB Cross Slash for our death. Cloud's neutral game outshines ours and there's no contest on that.

The difference between Mac and Cloud: Cloud actually has good aerials that provide massive coverage on him. Lucario still is terrible at gimping in this game.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

The move isn't frame 16, as if you are in the hitbox range after the first few frames, there's a time freeze. The move can be combo'd fairly easily, and air dodge baited with his insanely stupid U-air.

You aren't ever gonna touch a good cloud with Lucario, his range and speed is too good. I'll let future tournament results speak.

Edit: It will be as cringe worthy as watching any of the Lucario vs ZSS sets.

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Cloud Frame 16

Also easily combo'd? The only thing that true combos into FT is up air at like 30-40%. Nothing else lol

Also I find it funny how people say "A good (blank) will never be touched by us!!" is used so often. It's an excuse, a John. That's what you're making. An excuse. Yeah a good Cloud will give us trouble. But you're failing to take into account the Lucario player's skill. If the Lucario is the better player, he's gonna most likely win. No amount of "But they run CIRCLES around us!!" will change that. Maybe YOU'RE losing to mid-level Clouds, but that doesn't mean that the Cloud will beat every single Lucario in existence.

Also LOL at calling the ZSS MU cringeworthy. It isn't even that bad. DIing boost kick won't kill us until like 120, and her neutral is bad enough for us to take advantage of.

 

[Nysyr]

http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Cloud Frame 16

I've used Lucario's Bair enough to know what F16 is, thanks. Its more like 8-10F Windup and then the rest is freeze frames. Our Uair is 10F for reference.

I've watched enough of Loota's sets and Kami's sets and repeatedly watched them be dunked by ZSS. I don't really care for what you do at your locals.

Sorry Loota.

 

[BugCatcherWill]

I've used Lucario's Bair enough to know what F16 is, thanks. Its more like 8-10F Windup and then the rest is freeze frames. Our Uair is 10F for reference.

I've watched enough of Loota's sets and Kami's sets and repeatedly watched them be dunked by ZSS. I don't really care for what you do at your locals.

Sorry Loota.

Holy **** do you not see the frame data? It clearly says frame 16. No amount of bells and whistles added on to your explanation will change that it's a slow-ass move.

Also that set is pretty moot to your general argument as Trifroze and Loota play each other on a regular basis and have been since Brawl so he knows his playstyle and habits.

And I think you should care what I do at locals because looking at the stupid crap you say here I don't think you even go to any irl event at all lol

 

[Nysyr]

Holy **** do you not see the frame data? It clearly says frame 16. No amount of bells and whistles added on to your explanation will change that it's a slow-*** move.

Also that set is pretty moot to your general argument as Trifroze and Loota play each other on a regular basis and have been since Brawl so he knows his playstyle and habits.

And I think you should care what I do at locals because looking at the stupid crap you say here I don't think you even go to any irl event at all lol

Okay I measured it myself and you're right, its 8 taps of 1/4th advance which on my 3ds is 2 frames per so 16. Guess I've seen Bair so much it might as well be 30F.

Trifroze is fairly new to ZSS and he was mucking around alot in those sets. I could dig thru Trifoze's channel and dig out other sets against ZSS. I can't exactly link Kami's sets since he mostly died to boost kick, which I'm sure wouldn't happen anymore as everyone know how to DI it now.

 

[yessi]

I don't want to post my opinion here in fear of being yelled at by another lucario main ._.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I don't want to post my opinion here in fear of being yelled at by another lucario main ._.

Go ahead, we'll be happy to listen to ya.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I don't want to post my opinion here in fear of being yelled at by another lucario main ._.

Go ahead, we can listen well.

 

[Vivi_Ornitier]

i got beat by a cloud at my local, it's definitely -3 and i can say w/o a doubt lucario is the worst character in the game. has worse frame data than shulk, has absolutely no combo ability, and doesn't kill until 200%. why even try.............................................................................................

 

[Pitbuller26]

In a game where characters kill at 80% from combos off of small hits doesn't do any favors for Lucario. Throws into death, just laughs at Lucario.

 

[Masonomace]

i got beat by a cloud at my local, it's definitely -3 and i can say w/o a doubt lucario is the worst character in the game. has worse frame data than shulk, has absolutely no combo ability, and doesn't kill until 200%. why even try.............................................................................................

I'm sorry, but I can't take this seriously. Lucario & Shulk compete in frame data in terms of Jab1, Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash (because Shulk's first hit of Fsmash clanks with jabs. . .), Dsmash, grab variants, dodges, & that's about it. Some of Lucario's tilts have better startup & aerials have some autocancel windows with better startup & endlag frame data by far than Shulk's aerials. .

Is Cloud really a -3 for Lucario?? I wasn't aware that it was apparently that bad.

 

[Pitbuller26]

Some believe it's even or -1.

I believe it's -2 at the least due to our horrid aerials and range. Aura Sphere isn't as useful due to just how fast Cloud can move plus Limit just ruins our day.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Pitbuller26 have you ever tried to recover with Cloud? It's like asking to be hit by every projectile in the game.

Vivi_Ornitier I'd avoid air attacks in neutral on this MU. Cloud has a harder time landing around projectile users. Outside of Limit Breaks, FSmash and possibly a UAir Cloud has a harder time killing. He is really reliant on getting Limit Break charged before he can kill.

If you are aware of his FSmash, Limits, and can play a bit of defense... You should be able to live until like 120% or more. Don't roll or tech mindlessly. It takes a couple frames more than 6 seconds for Limit Break to fully charge. Also you guys know how to fight around Little Mac's KO punch, right?

This matchup is a lot like fighting Ike too.

Keep calm and charge Aura Sphere.

 

[Loota]

As for what comes to the ZSS matchup, I know I got kind of bopped in that linked set but I don't feel like I played that well at all, his new and better playstyle caught me off-guard and I failed at adapting. It's definitively not as bad as it looks there but it's disadvantaged for sure, can't decide between -1 and -2 though.

I have no idea of the Cloud MU, haven't really got to play it too much yet. I can see why it could be disadvantaged but at the same time, I don't know how well Cloud is going to handle a high aura defensive Lucario with his underwhelming grab reward. Time will tell I guess.

I'm hosting a tournament this weekend so I'll try to get some fresh buffcario footage recorded and hopefully get some more insight on the Cloud MU.

 

[Wolfheart77]

Can I ask some advice?
So I recently figured out that if I play high offensive I get murdered but if I play highly defensive (like I play with Robin) I can't rack up enough damage to do quick kills (but I survive 20-30% longer). I'm trying to shuffle my play style between the two but I can't seem to make it work.
With Robin, I can force an approach using Elthunder at long distances and Thunder at short ones, then Arcfire when they get close to either force a jump (then catch them with Levin up-air), a roll (dsmash or fsmash), or a shield (Nosferatu or a grab), or catch them for some damage and an aerial follow-up. Across the stage I'll use a Thoron for edge guarding but only rarely, and when I deplete my weapons I catch them and smash throw them to net ridiculous kills (I mean, who actually wants to say "I lost when I got hit by a book... in a No Items match... at 80%"?). If none of that works, the Checkmate combo does pretty good until around 140% to kill (after that I've found that I have to jump higher and it's way too easy to DI out of) but after 140% a back throw kills fairly well.
I've actually been playing Lucario longer than I've been playing Robin (I played Lucario back in Brawl and he was the first one I picked up in Smash 4) so I know quite a few more advanced techs (turnaround B for ASC to JCUpsmash, using ASC to cancel landing lag, dair stalls, RDT - though I haven't actually been able to pull it off) and am more familiar with the kill moves (I usually manage up throw to full hop up air or fair->fair->uair when I've got about 50-90% damage; any higher and I either try to catch with force palm or land a bair or uair or on rare occasions, a fully charged aura sphere or an fsmash on a read) but I'm not entirely sure how to play the "approach me if you dare" play style with Lucario. Aura Sphere works like Elthunder and Force Palm works (sorta) like Arcfire for forcing aerial approaches but the end lag on both Aura Sphere and Force Palm (if I don't catch the grab hitbox) tends to mean I can't follow up as well. For racking up damage I tend to use utilt->utilt at low percents and ftilt, dair, and fair if I can't catch my opponent in repeated utilts, and of course ASC. To approach I typically either dash attack or double jump fair. To mix things up, occasionally I do dthrow -> up angled ftilt or bthrow -> dash attack -> utilt. And I much prefer not using aura when I can because I don't like getting thrown off stage.

So basically I'm asking, 1) how do I shuffle my Robin play style with my old Lucario play style in order to stay alive longer and get that extra aura, while still maintaining the efficiency of kills I was getting, and 2) when I play with my friends (and we do play no items and usually tournament legal stages only), there are some who don't cave under ranged pressure and outspace me in the air; how do I kill them before they send me over the blast line? (And the other characters besides Lucario that I enjoy playing and am slowly getting better at are Robin, Shulk, and Roy, in case "counterpick" is the better option.)

 

[nannerham]

The tournament in my area has just smashed a record for the amount of people that came and there was a lot of local and out of state threats, i did ok and got 13th place but I was a little disappointed with myself since I played pretty sloppy with metaknight. After I was dropped out of losers I decided to mess around and use my lucario, considering what characters were being played I wasn't too confident on how i was going to do. Come to my suprise I beat almost everyone that outplaced me in a bo3 including the person who got 2nd. There were tons of falcon mains at that tournament which is why I opted to go metaknight. I wasnt comfortable with the lucario-falcon MU before but after the sheer amount of times playing against him in a span of an hour I find it an incredibly enjoyable MU now. This experience made respect lucario way more and next time I know I'll do better with him.

 

[smbmaster99MFGG]

I won my first offline tournament this last Thursday in one of HASL's Back-Throw Thursday weeklies. They don't stream these particular events unfortunately because they currently lack the hardware but it was very exciting. Made it to semifinals then got knocked into loser's by mahgnittoc, then came back, reset the bracket, and managed to win. Hopefully not my last offline tournament victory =P

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Can I ask some advice?
So I recently figured out that if I play high offensive I get murdered but if I play highly defensive (like I play with Robin) I can't rack up enough damage to do quick kills (but I survive 20-30% longer). I'm trying to shuffle my play style between the two but I can't seem to make it work.
With Robin, I can force an approach using Elthunder at long distances and Thunder at short ones, then Arcfire when they get close to either force a jump (then catch them with Levin up-air), a roll (dsmash or fsmash), or a shield (Nosferatu or a grab), or catch them for some damage and an aerial follow-up. Across the stage I'll use a Thoron for edge guarding but only rarely, and when I deplete my weapons I catch them and smash throw them to net ridiculous kills (I mean, who actually wants to say "I lost when I got hit by a book... in a No Items match... at 80%"?). If none of that works, the Checkmate combo does pretty good until around 140% to kill (after that I've found that I have to jump higher and it's way too easy to DI out of) but after 140% a back throw kills fairly well.
I've actually been playing Lucario longer than I've been playing Robin (I played Lucario back in Brawl and he was the first one I picked up in Smash 4) so I know quite a few more advanced techs (turnaround B for ASC to JCUpsmash, using ASC to cancel landing lag, dair stalls, RDT - though I haven't actually been able to pull it off) and am more familiar with the kill moves (I usually manage up throw to full hop up air or fair->fair->uair when I've got about 50-90% damage; any higher and I either try to catch with force palm or land a bair or uair or on rare occasions, a fully charged aura sphere or an fsmash on a read) but I'm not entirely sure how to play the "approach me if you dare" play style with Lucario. Aura Sphere works like Elthunder and Force Palm works (sorta) like Arcfire for forcing aerial approaches but the end lag on both Aura Sphere and Force Palm (if I don't catch the grab hitbox) tends to mean I can't follow up as well. For racking up damage I tend to use utilt->utilt at low percents and ftilt, dair, and fair if I can't catch my opponent in repeated utilts, and of course ASC. To approach I typically either dash attack or double jump fair. To mix things up, occasionally I do dthrow -> up angled ftilt or bthrow -> dash attack -> utilt. And I much prefer not using aura when I can because I don't like getting thrown off stage.

So basically I'm asking, 1) how do I shuffle my Robin play style with my old Lucario play style in order to stay alive longer and get that extra aura, while still maintaining the efficiency of kills I was getting, and 2) when I play with my friends (and we do play no items and usually tournament legal stages only), there are some who don't cave under ranged pressure and outspace me in the air; how do I kill them before they send me over the blast line? (And the other characters besides Lucario that I enjoy playing and am slowly getting better at are Robin, Shulk, and Roy, in case "counterpick" is the better option.)

Try BReversing and doing some fake outs. If someone overcommits then you can have fun punishing them. I also like firing (baby) Aura Sphere after I finish a combo of the opponent is above me to force them to react to it and I can punish either them getting hit or an air dodge.

The tournament in my area has just smashed a record for the amount of people that came and there was a lot of local and out of state threats, i did ok and got 13th place but I was a little disappointed with myself since I played pretty sloppy with metaknight. After I was dropped out of losers I decided to mess around and use my lucario, considering what characters were being played I wasn't too confident on how i was going to do. Come to my suprise I beat almost everyone that outplaced me in a bo3 including the person who got 2nd. There were tons of falcon mains at that tournament which is why I opted to go metaknight. I wasnt comfortable with the lucario-falcon MU before but after the sheer amount of times playing against him in a span of an hour I find it an incredibly enjoyable MU now. This experience made respect lucario way more and next time I know I'll do better with him.

Lucario is really fun and I am glad you had an enjoyable experience with him. If you're up for it feel free to join the Discord chat, just feel free to ask me for a join link.

I won my first offline tournament this last Thursday in one of HASL's Back-Throw Thursday weeklies. They don't stream these particular events unfortunately because they currently lack the hardware but it was very exciting. Made it to semifinals then got knocked into loser's by mahgnittoc, then came back, reset the bracket, and managed to win. Hopefully not my last offline tournament victory =P

Well done, were any of the replays saved? I hope to see those and to spar with ya.

 

[smbmaster99MFGG]

Well done, were any of the replays saved? I hope to see those and to spar with ya.

Unfortunately not even replays were saved But thanks =P I spoke to our TO for a moment after the tournament and we're gonna see if what I have could work for live streaming our weeklies. I think all I need is a playercam or webcam whatever the correct word is and we'd be gold, but I've never live-streamed a tournament before so idk how much more involved it is than live-streaming to say youtube or something :v

 

[Wolfheart77]

Try BReversing and doing some fake outs. If someone overcommits then you can have fun punishing them. I also like firing (baby) Aura Sphere after I finish a combo of the opponent is above me to force them to react to it and I can punish either them getting hit or an air dodge.

Thanks Should I B-reverse, or turnaround B? on the ground as well? I finally managed to train myself to stop B-reversing in the air; after I stopped B-reversing and consistently doing a turnaround B instead, I actually managed to fall into my opponent rather than having to jump WAY over them in order to pull it off (which is pretty much telegraphing it). And while I can hit both in the air no matter when I try, probably about 80% of the time, I've tried and tried and tried and just can't do it on the ground as well. Seems like I'll need more practice with Lucario, definitely. If I can manage to hook up my Wii U to the internet when I get back to my dorm, could I add you as a sparring partner? I'd love to both do mirror matches and figure out how the match-ups with my other main/secondaries work as well, considering only one other person plays Lucario in my Smash group and he doesn't even play my favorite aura dog seriously.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

I'd recommend a healthy mix of both to keep the opponent guessing, but don't do it too far off of the ground.

 

[RT]

Cloud is an interesting matchup. Probably less fun for the Lucario overall.

As someone who plays both, please don't say "just gimp Cloud!!!!" as a way to summarize how to beat him. You have to definitely respect his range and how rigged some of his moves are (uair being the big one). At same time, once Lucario gets Aura, Cloud has to start respecting Lucario's AS and bair more, basically any move with good horizontal launching power.

And don't brush off his other Limits beyond Finishing Touch. They do have specific uses beyond killing.

 

[Browny]

I don't want to post my opinion here in fear of being yelled at by another lucario main ._.

BARK BARK BARK

Re: Cloud

He cant land versus aura sphere. That's not a question, an assumption, a theory or an exaggeration.

He literally has 0 options to dodge projectiles that are aimed at his feet as he lands. Here is a list of characters that posses no momentum shifting aerials, counters, absorbers or 3+ jumps in order to dodge projectiles:

mains need to abuse this fact more. Don't try to juggle cloud EVER, just wait until he lands and put a full charged projectile at his feet. The only way cloud can dodge it is with a perfectly spaced fair but that's pretty damn difficult to do regularly while moving. Go for Omega stages or smashville and make an effort to always punish his landings because as long as you dont mistime it something awful, its pretty much a guaranteed hit.

 

[RT]

You forgot Wii Fit Trainer. But everyone forgets her...

 

[AlexoftheAura]

Wii Fit Trainer might as well be taken out in the next patch.

 

[RT]

Rude, don't want to upset one person.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Been labbing a couple things and found a couple "new" combos including at least one kill combo. I'll be sharing and discussing my finds on the Lucario Discord before I post them here.

 

[nannerham]

I'm finding that when you face away from your opponent getting the first hit of dair is much easier, so ive been using my friend as a guinea pig and was able to pull off RAR dair (first hit) into force palm. I know thats always been a neat little trick lucario always had, but it seems that getting first hit is more consistent when facing away I could be crazy, can anyone confirm?

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

Argh, I was wrong about shieldlock, sorry.

Anyways, we're labbing second hit NAir and finding it can lead to some kill setups.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

How I feel when I play against Lucario:

 

[Zoa]

Holy crap it's been a while since I've been here. I recently started seriously getting into this game since my local scene is branching out to give Smash 4 a shot. Is there any consensus on if this Lucario is better than the one from Brawl since I've been away?

 

[KakuCP9]

Imo, current cario still kind of falls short of brawl cario. Despite the mobility buffs (his air speed is a lot higher and having faster fall speed to aid in SHFF nairs) along with ASC kill set-ups, his lack of range and sub-par frame data still bite him in the ass at times. There was a bit of a stink about ASC-->Usmash not working after the Cloud patch, though it was later found that it still works at kill percents, just not before then (also other ASC follow-ups tend to not work when the opponent is at low percents so using grab combos is advised). While this Lucario can sound a bit underwhelming sometimes, I still have faith in the dumb jackal.

 

[Karnu]

So I met Empire and he's a cool guy. Funny freindlies going for the same approach options all match long HHUEHUE

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

So there were a couple setups I labbed a bit. I wanted to discuss them more in full.

1. Landing UAir (late) to jump UAir. If you catch someone air dodging or if they misspace something landing late hit of UAir can combo into a jump UAir and also be a kill combo. Situational, yet if it is a kill combo I'll take what I can get, besides you can combo with Lucario's butt, lol.
2. Backwards NAir hit 2. If you shieldpoke someone's head you get a free Aura Sphere tech chase if done on stage. Also can work as a cross up on someone's shield. Characters tend to stand up straight when shielding.

You could probably even make greater use of these on stages like Battlefield.

So, it seems that anything with a base knock back of 30 or below with a knock back gain of 90 or more and doing a base damage of 6 or less tends to have a lot of combo potential. @Eeveecario and @Croi you two should have some fun thinking about those numbers at least.

 

[yessi]

So I met kami at genesis. Well, not really. I would just pass by and look from a distance. He was smiling so I guess hes cool

 

[elusiveTranscendent]

So I met kami at genesis. Well, not really. I would just pass by and look from a distance. He was smiling so I guess hes cool

Why didn't ya say hi?