Samuelson
Smash Lord
Her Usmash and Up B have insane vertical range so try not to come down from directly above her. Her Fsmash isn't that great except that it hits behind her also but most Zamus players don't use this attack.
-
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~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~
- Thread starter Jeepy Sol
- Start date
Tomkraven
Smash Journeyman
Also she has an amazing but scary killing combo which is upthrow/uptilt to uair to upB to back air with will kill lucarios for sure over 110% if done correctly cause that that height theres no horizontal nor verital resistance that will safe us.
Also the careful with her Down smash while returning to the stage cause she can paralize u in the air and then stage spike. Keep an eye on the gun too or she will connect it with Dsmash to uptilt to upb to any aerial which an obcenly great combo.
Edit: I think i said some things that timbers already said... sorry i didnt paid much attention to it :embarrass
Also the careful with her Down smash while returning to the stage cause she can paralize u in the air and then stage spike. Keep an eye on the gun too or she will connect it with Dsmash to uptilt to upb to any aerial which an obcenly great combo.
Edit: I think i said some things that timbers already said... sorry i didnt paid much attention to it :embarrass
Timbers
check me out
^That combo gets owned by airdodge, but she has a lot of options to set up into uair and bair. It's scary to get hit by either.
Lucario generally has a solid advantage, generally because Zero Suit has low roll punishment capabilities other than at percentages when Lucario is his deadliest, and Lucario has one of the best rolls in the game.
Players like Snakeee are highly inventive and have found ways around Lucario's techniques, but that just means that at a high level of play the two are close but in an opinion of mine is that Lucario is a very strong character and has strong definite advantages against Zero Suit Samus. Unless you're talking about the top 5% of players generally Lucario has the advantage.
The way to not get beaten silly by a Zero Suit is to not try to approach from above. Her Up Smash and Up B tear through floaty approaches. However as long as you approach from a diagonal you can mess with her effectively. You can generally outspam her neutral b with yours and tbh it's incredibly telegraphed.
To be honest, Zero Suit mains are probably going to spam their side b attack. It's their best spacing technique, and one of their best kill moves.
Players like Snakeee are highly inventive and have found ways around Lucario's techniques, but that just means that at a high level of play the two are close but in an opinion of mine is that Lucario is a very strong character and has strong definite advantages against Zero Suit Samus. Unless you're talking about the top 5% of players generally Lucario has the advantage.
The way to not get beaten silly by a Zero Suit is to not try to approach from above. Her Up Smash and Up B tear through floaty approaches. However as long as you approach from a diagonal you can mess with her effectively. You can generally outspam her neutral b with yours and tbh it's incredibly telegraphed.
To be honest, Zero Suit mains are probably going to spam their side b attack. It's their best spacing technique, and one of their best kill moves.
Adapt
Smash Lord
This is something you might want to take a look at: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1jEU7olWI
Now Azen>Snakeee, but Snakeee plays a good game, beyond eating a couple aura spheres he could have avoided and killing himself on that second stock (down-B would have saved him easily)
Now with respect to the matchup, Lucario's huge hitboxes in the air are pretty annoying since most of ZSS's kill moves are aerials (down-B, u/f/bair). And since we have trouble killing, it's all the better for you.
I have not personally faced a Lucario of my skill level, but I do play Lucario as well, so I have a good general feel of the matchup
Now Azen>Snakeee, but Snakeee plays a good game, beyond eating a couple aura spheres he could have avoided and killing himself on that second stock (down-B would have saved him easily)
Now with respect to the matchup, Lucario's huge hitboxes in the air are pretty annoying since most of ZSS's kill moves are aerials (down-B, u/f/bair). And since we have trouble killing, it's all the better for you.
I have not personally faced a Lucario of my skill level, but I do play Lucario as well, so I have a good general feel of the matchup
Ilucamy
Smash Journeyman
Timbers, I posted on your thread in the ZSS boards, but I got tired on writing and posted, so I'm here to give the rest of the information. I'll try to keep it short.
Combos and strategies (That ZSS uses)
Charging the Stungun while shorthopping, as long as the characters not ducking, the shot will fire off fully charged as she lands, leaving you in a pickle if you don't dodge it.
Stungun > Grab, the range on the gun is almost identical to the grab (lol), so this is generally when she'll do if you're out of range for a D-Smash right after the gun.
Watch out for her Down Throw > Hyphen U-Smash. Her D-Throw also leads into many aerial combos, by far her most versatile throw, all her others suck. If she misses though, she may as well consider herself 50% higher.
Up-B > U-Tilt is a true combo (albeit a short one) on moderately tall characters, I'm not sure if Lucario is affected or not. Her Up-B in the air will combo into her aerials as certain percents. You may be able to dodge the last hit of her Up-B, thus avoiding the pull-down, I'm fairly sure that if it's even possible it only happens at low percents. Her dash attack is pretty awesome, it ties together with her tilts, and at high percents, she can virtually juggle you off the stage with them, so make sure you shieldgrab.
Whatever you do, don't get hit by D-Smash, if you do, consider yourself at least 30% higher. I'm pretty sure we don't have to worry about the D-Smash chain due to Lucario's Floatiness, but if she gets you with one, she'll do this: D-Smash>D-Smash>U-Smash. It almost always works as a damage racker. If you're at higher percents she may be able to get 3 D-Smashes in.
If you start getting into the low-mid hundreds range, STAY AWAY FROM THE EDGE. If she catches you with a D-Smash at the edge, you're doomed. She'll do 3 D-Smashes followed by a Flip Kick spike, it's a true combo. Also, don't hang on the edge too long, she can D-Smash you there, and then stage-spike you with a bair.
And the moral of the story is. DON'T GET D-SMASHED FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
Just as a fun little fact, her Side-B has a blindspot like right in the middle of the attack. It's really funny if you land in that spot because you have this giant plasma thing going right through you. If you can exploit that, all the better. And her F-smash has a hitbox in back of her, but don't worry, it does bad damage and ZSS players rarely use it.
So.... Fission Mailed
Combos and strategies (That ZSS uses)
Charging the Stungun while shorthopping, as long as the characters not ducking, the shot will fire off fully charged as she lands, leaving you in a pickle if you don't dodge it.
Stungun > Grab, the range on the gun is almost identical to the grab (lol), so this is generally when she'll do if you're out of range for a D-Smash right after the gun.
Watch out for her Down Throw > Hyphen U-Smash. Her D-Throw also leads into many aerial combos, by far her most versatile throw, all her others suck. If she misses though, she may as well consider herself 50% higher.
Up-B > U-Tilt is a true combo (albeit a short one) on moderately tall characters, I'm not sure if Lucario is affected or not. Her Up-B in the air will combo into her aerials as certain percents. You may be able to dodge the last hit of her Up-B, thus avoiding the pull-down, I'm fairly sure that if it's even possible it only happens at low percents. Her dash attack is pretty awesome, it ties together with her tilts, and at high percents, she can virtually juggle you off the stage with them, so make sure you shieldgrab.
Whatever you do, don't get hit by D-Smash, if you do, consider yourself at least 30% higher. I'm pretty sure we don't have to worry about the D-Smash chain due to Lucario's Floatiness, but if she gets you with one, she'll do this: D-Smash>D-Smash>U-Smash. It almost always works as a damage racker. If you're at higher percents she may be able to get 3 D-Smashes in.
If you start getting into the low-mid hundreds range, STAY AWAY FROM THE EDGE. If she catches you with a D-Smash at the edge, you're doomed. She'll do 3 D-Smashes followed by a Flip Kick spike, it's a true combo. Also, don't hang on the edge too long, she can D-Smash you there, and then stage-spike you with a bair.
And the moral of the story is. DON'T GET D-SMASHED FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!
Just as a fun little fact, her Side-B has a blindspot like right in the middle of the attack. It's really funny if you land in that spot because you have this giant plasma thing going right through you. If you can exploit that, all the better. And her F-smash has a hitbox in back of her, but don't worry, it does bad damage and ZSS players rarely use it.
So.... Fission Mailed
Timbers
check me out
I think Lucario may be too big to avoid the deadzone in her sideB and grab, but I can't confirm that.
Dsmash>Dsmash>Dthrow is what I see used the most out of the dsmash setups, as it leads into more moves. Dsmash>Dsmash>bair/fair is too good.
Thanks for the input, Ilucamy.
Dsmash>Dsmash>Dthrow is what I see used the most out of the dsmash setups, as it leads into more moves. Dsmash>Dsmash>bair/fair is too good.
Thanks for the input, Ilucamy.
DuskMarthWater
Dude.
Alrighty...let's see what I can contribute to this match-up.
Approach/basic style(ZSS):
Those items that she gets at the beginning can be very painful, but they shouldn't bother you too much. Just dodge them and you'll be fine, or throw them back at her. Zamus will not approach very often, actually. They like to use their stupid side-B to space. It's very, very powerful, so avoid it, especially if you get hit by the sweetspot right at the tip of it. It's basically the same strategy as Samus' zair, only a slower attack, but the slower speed is kinda negligible, and it doesn't make it any less effective. The stungun is another common move, though nearly as common as the side-B. The AS does not go through the fully charged Stungun, at any percentage or if its an FCAS. They cancel out almost everytime, except for every once in a while. Sometimes at random the AS will eat through it, but it's only random. However, BAS will sometimes go underneath it, due to it's curving trajectory, throwing off Zamus' timing and momentum. And the side-B does the same thing. The AS will stop right on it every time, except sometimes if you time it right by getting really close to her. That's about all she's got on approaching, except for the dash attack. But that should be expected by now, eh? She won't try to grab you very much either, and if she does you should be ready to punish her for it.
Her aerials are pretty decent. Her fair is very powerful if the second hit connects, so be weary of being comboed into it. Her uair is surprisingly strong too, and it can be big trouble at higher percents and on low ceilings, because it's very fast. Her dair...it sucks. Bair is pretty decent, having a lot of range and kill potential and her nair is alright, doing a decent amount of damage.
Her recovery is a tether recovery, so be sure to ledge-hog if she's far away and preferably below you, otherwise she'll just use her down-B and jump back onto the stage.
Her down smash...don't get hit by it. Seriously, it's really bad. It attacks at least twice every time and they can do many things out of it. Don't stay on the ledge too long at higher percentages either 'cause she'll just walk up and do the down smash.
I think that covers Zamus' moveset. Now for Lucario's...
Lucario can approach with...actually, not as much as normal. The stupid side-B prevents you from doing any rushing attacks. You can jump over her though, and approach her from above. That does NOT mean short hop. Your BAS will get through at her a lot more often than your opponent will give it credit for, so if you don't feel like approaching, throw babies at them! It's faster than her side-B and the Stungun. They'll take quite a bit of damage before they realize they have to be aggressive, in which case they'll probably try jumping over your BAS at you, so you can use it to bait them too, and then win with superior aerial games, or try mindgaming a DT, or do whatever. It's your call. You can't crouch underneath Zamus' side-B so don't do it, you'll get a plasma whip to the face. Your sheild is gonna be very friendly against that side-B.
I would like to quote a response from the match-up thread that was made in the ZSS boards by Timbers. Hopefully this will help us understand more of what Lucario has on ZSS. Anyways:
I would say this match-up is actually around 70:30 Lucario's favor or maybe even higher. Zamus' kill moves are pretty powerful, but they require more of a set up than Samus', who can just walk up and do a dtilt/smash or an fsmash. Zamus has to work a little harder to get you into position for most of her kill moves, except the side-B, but that has a tricky sweetspot which you can run out of and avoid dying from.
Good stages: You know...I originally had only two stages here, but after some convincing I have decided to change this. I cannot think of ANY stage that completely destroys ZSS, she doesn't really have any disadvantages on any stages. So yea...I don't have anything on stages, 'cause I simply don't think there is any one particularly good stage against her.
Approach/basic style(ZSS):
Those items that she gets at the beginning can be very painful, but they shouldn't bother you too much. Just dodge them and you'll be fine, or throw them back at her. Zamus will not approach very often, actually. They like to use their stupid side-B to space. It's very, very powerful, so avoid it, especially if you get hit by the sweetspot right at the tip of it. It's basically the same strategy as Samus' zair, only a slower attack, but the slower speed is kinda negligible, and it doesn't make it any less effective. The stungun is another common move, though nearly as common as the side-B. The AS does not go through the fully charged Stungun, at any percentage or if its an FCAS. They cancel out almost everytime, except for every once in a while. Sometimes at random the AS will eat through it, but it's only random. However, BAS will sometimes go underneath it, due to it's curving trajectory, throwing off Zamus' timing and momentum. And the side-B does the same thing. The AS will stop right on it every time, except sometimes if you time it right by getting really close to her. That's about all she's got on approaching, except for the dash attack. But that should be expected by now, eh? She won't try to grab you very much either, and if she does you should be ready to punish her for it.
Her aerials are pretty decent. Her fair is very powerful if the second hit connects, so be weary of being comboed into it. Her uair is surprisingly strong too, and it can be big trouble at higher percents and on low ceilings, because it's very fast. Her dair...it sucks. Bair is pretty decent, having a lot of range and kill potential and her nair is alright, doing a decent amount of damage.
Her recovery is a tether recovery, so be sure to ledge-hog if she's far away and preferably below you, otherwise she'll just use her down-B and jump back onto the stage.
Her down smash...don't get hit by it. Seriously, it's really bad. It attacks at least twice every time and they can do many things out of it. Don't stay on the ledge too long at higher percentages either 'cause she'll just walk up and do the down smash.
I think that covers Zamus' moveset. Now for Lucario's...
Lucario can approach with...actually, not as much as normal. The stupid side-B prevents you from doing any rushing attacks. You can jump over her though, and approach her from above. That does NOT mean short hop. Your BAS will get through at her a lot more often than your opponent will give it credit for, so if you don't feel like approaching, throw babies at them! It's faster than her side-B and the Stungun. They'll take quite a bit of damage before they realize they have to be aggressive, in which case they'll probably try jumping over your BAS at you, so you can use it to bait them too, and then win with superior aerial games, or try mindgaming a DT, or do whatever. It's your call. You can't crouch underneath Zamus' side-B so don't do it, you'll get a plasma whip to the face. Your sheild is gonna be very friendly against that side-B.
I would like to quote a response from the match-up thread that was made in the ZSS boards by Timbers. Hopefully this will help us understand more of what Lucario has on ZSS. Anyways:
Match-up stats:
I would say this match-up is actually around 70:30 Lucario's favor or maybe even higher. Zamus' kill moves are pretty powerful, but they require more of a set up than Samus', who can just walk up and do a dtilt/smash or an fsmash. Zamus has to work a little harder to get you into position for most of her kill moves, except the side-B, but that has a tricky sweetspot which you can run out of and avoid dying from.
Good stages: You know...I originally had only two stages here, but after some convincing I have decided to change this. I cannot think of ANY stage that completely destroys ZSS, she doesn't really have any disadvantages on any stages. So yea...I don't have anything on stages, 'cause I simply don't think there is any one particularly good stage against her.
Jeepy Sol
Smash Ace
Wow, looking really good so far, guys. Keep up the good work! ^-^
tedward2000
Smash Champion
I'll have some sarcastic yet humorous comment on ZZS tomorrow.
Im dry on humor.
-t2
Im dry on humor.
-t2
Browny
Smash Hater
you guys act like the dsmash is god tier... just button mash + di the same you do if you get hit by DK's side b.
Zss no-go zone is the area immediately infront of her. thats it. its nothing like snake where you dont want to be anywhere within filt range (half of FD), or rob dsmash range / nair. her side b, neutral b and fsmash arent quick enough to be a threat. honestly her a-a jab is probably the most threatening thing she has on the ground, lucarios roll dodge is just too good.
keep at ftilt range at all times, im quite sure is bigger than anything zss has, and quicker than any of her longer ranged moves
Zss no-go zone is the area immediately infront of her. thats it. its nothing like snake where you dont want to be anywhere within filt range (half of FD), or rob dsmash range / nair. her side b, neutral b and fsmash arent quick enough to be a threat. honestly her a-a jab is probably the most threatening thing she has on the ground, lucarios roll dodge is just too good.
keep at ftilt range at all times, im quite sure is bigger than anything zss has, and quicker than any of her longer ranged moves
Adapt
Smash Lord
You can't mash out of a stun, you're stuck in it until it wears off. (which only depends on your damage percentage)
It can be hard to get someone into a dsmash, A good player can avoid it. But once there you can expect to take 30-40 damage
Timbers
check me out
Downsmash is a set stun. You can't mash out of it.
And the dsmash is really the only reason ZSS isn't bottom tier (exaggeration <.<!). It's a great move.
The dsmash has range nearly on par with your fsmash, and it's faster. So, don't underestimate it. Dsmash>dsmash>dthrow is like 35%, and she can follow it with uairs and uB. Allows a tech chase with the uB. It also locks a guaranteed kill for her at higher percents with her sideB/uair/bair. Fundamental move? Very much yes.
ROB's dsmash range is pretty pitiful actually. It's respectable given it's startup, but it's horizontal hitbox isn't broken or anything.
Her jab combo can be shielded between hits. It's terrible lol. Luckily for Zamus her tilts are quite good.
Tomkraven
Smash Journeyman
On top of all that. her ledge game is quite good. remember the backflip kick out of ledge.
Her dash attack its quite a good aproach but you can grab as she hits your shield becoming a very punishable aproach. But be careful, if she goes through ur shield without hitting you and u try to grab ull be open for a dsmash.
Never try to Dair on top of her because she can upB twice and then folow up with Uair or Fair.
Always extreme hog her if shes out of flipjump range because she wont make it to the edge even if she hits u with her upB. (ive tested this a couple of times )
Her dash attack its quite a good aproach but you can grab as she hits your shield becoming a very punishable aproach. But be careful, if she goes through ur shield without hitting you and u try to grab ull be open for a dsmash.
Never try to Dair on top of her because she can upB twice and then folow up with Uair or Fair.
Always extreme hog her if shes out of flipjump range because she wont make it to the edge even if she hits u with her upB. (ive tested this a couple of times )
Samuelson
Smash Lord
I think you have to be pretty whipped to main Zamus.
...sorry i just had to say it
...sorry i just had to say it
tedward2000
Smash Champion
Here we go!
Zero Suit Samus, nintendo's first actual playboy model. Who knew that under that hard shell was blond bombshell? Think Laura Croft, but in a skin tight suit.
Sure got us.
When Samus "loses" her suit, she gains a better medium range, a hell of a lot faster, and a high utility whip-like blaster. No more missiles, no more massive energy balls, and no more screw attack.
Instead, you get a fricken ninja.
And don't think those implants of her's is going to slow her down. Nooooo sir. If its one thing ZSS can do, its attack really fast.
Her squritgun of a blaster is her primary use of attack. When swung like a bat, it releases a energy whip that has frightful range and speed. Lets count how many of her moves use this whip; Usmash,Ssmash,Upb,SideB,and Z
5 of ZSS attacks have medium range. Roughly four of them can kill.
Oh and it can grapple too.
Oh and it can fire a laser that will stun anything, in any space (ground or air).
Aerials are beastly too, Especially her Uair and Bair.
Her Dair needs to used lightly, her foot becomes a no stop rocket, either to the ground or her death. But a good ZSS will be careful with it, so don't expect too many Self-Ko's from it.
The problem though, is she has trouble Ko'ing.
Which is kinda important.
Lucario has long range, beastly piority and evasiveness in his favor.
lucario should have minor problems, and not much else.
-t2
*edit
fixed for lack of accuracy.
Zero Suit Samus, nintendo's first actual playboy model. Who knew that under that hard shell was blond bombshell? Think Laura Croft, but in a skin tight suit.
Sure got us.
When Samus "loses" her suit, she gains a better medium range, a hell of a lot faster, and a high utility whip-like blaster. No more missiles, no more massive energy balls, and no more screw attack.
Instead, you get a fricken ninja.
And don't think those implants of her's is going to slow her down. Nooooo sir. If its one thing ZSS can do, its attack really fast.
Her squritgun of a blaster is her primary use of attack. When swung like a bat, it releases a energy whip that has frightful range and speed. Lets count how many of her moves use this whip; Usmash,Ssmash,Upb,SideB,and Z
5 of ZSS attacks have medium range. Roughly four of them can kill.
Oh and it can grapple too.
Oh and it can fire a laser that will stun anything, in any space (ground or air).
Aerials are beastly too, Especially her Uair and Bair.
Her Dair needs to used lightly, her foot becomes a no stop rocket, either to the ground or her death. But a good ZSS will be careful with it, so don't expect too many Self-Ko's from it.
The problem though, is she has trouble Ko'ing.
Which is kinda important.
Lucario has long range, beastly piority and evasiveness in his favor.
lucario should have minor problems, and not much else.
-t2
*edit
fixed for lack of accuracy.
That's Ms. Space Ninja to you. Ms. Aran if you're nasty.
We prefer to call them "stabilizers."
Well that's space karate for you.
That reason above is why it's so much in Lucario's favor. You get to eat 120% or more damage while generally staying out of her % to kill range, unless you get hit by one of her immensely telegraphed attacks like Down+B or Side+B, or get nailed by the Down Smash which has moderate starting time. Pretty much it's a general consensus amongst the Zero Suits that Lucario has the advantage. Look at it this way, if Lucario is at 120% and Zero Suit is at 120% who's most likely to win that tussle? Considering most of Lucario's attacks hit like trucks around that percentage, and at that percentage a lot of Lucario's attacks have priority and range over her aerials which is her primary method of KOing... it's reasonable to say that even if Zero Suit was at 90% and Lucario was at 120% the two would be at relatively "equal" percentages when it comes to their killing power.
"He is pretty much unpunishable in the air, which is where ZSS shines a lot. He is hard to approach, as his projectile beats yours. Even when you get close, his priority destroys yours. To make matters worse, he is very hard to hit."
Is a quote from Snakeee's matchup guide, it speaks as to why Lucario has the advantage. To say that in the highest level of play possible a Zero Suit only has a slight disadvantage is one of the worst ways to describe Match-Ups, from inherent base abilities and character attributes Lucario has a solid advantage.
That being said if you play Lucario and a friend ritualistically beats you silly with Zero Suit the problem is you not the character. You're just not paying attention to the fundamental rule of all Smash Bros. games: "Don't get hit."
tedward2000
Smash Champion
you make a very good point, and thus I have edited my review.
It should be more accurate now.
-t2
*edit
sigh...fixed again...
Timbers
check me out
ZSS zair would make her so deliciously broken. =)
Responses regarding Lucario vs. ZSS from Zamus boards:
Responses regarding Lucario vs. ZSS from Zamus boards:
dj_pwn1423
Smash Journeyman
lol @ lucario being heavy.
Timbers
check me out
Yeah I had some concerns with the quotes. I guess I'll point them out.
-Hitboxes do not grow in size (only aurasphere)
-Her uair is still scary, despite our dair's own range. She can clip the sides of Lucario with it and still send him vertical. It's much like Mario's in the sense that it covers her body is a great deal.
-ZSS' tetherhog is irrelevant as Lucario's ES deals no damage anyways.
-Lucario is middleweight, not heavy.
-Lucario outranges ZSS. The only moves to outrange Lucario are fsmash, sideB, usmash and uB. Fsmash is slow and generally frowned upon by ZSS players. uB has no horizontal hitbox. Just don't stay directly above her. Usmash is annoying as all hell. Lucario's floaty, so she can easily chase us with this. SideB is telegraphed. Just don't land on top of her and you really shouldn't have any spacing issues.
-Aurasphere is still a problem for ZSS. It hinders her approach greatly.
-Hitboxes do not grow in size (only aurasphere)
-Her uair is still scary, despite our dair's own range. She can clip the sides of Lucario with it and still send him vertical. It's much like Mario's in the sense that it covers her body is a great deal.
-ZSS' tetherhog is irrelevant as Lucario's ES deals no damage anyways.
-Lucario is middleweight, not heavy.
-Lucario outranges ZSS. The only moves to outrange Lucario are fsmash, sideB, usmash and uB. Fsmash is slow and generally frowned upon by ZSS players. uB has no horizontal hitbox. Just don't stay directly above her. Usmash is annoying as all hell. Lucario's floaty, so she can easily chase us with this. SideB is telegraphed. Just don't land on top of her and you really shouldn't have any spacing issues.
-Aurasphere is still a problem for ZSS. It hinders her approach greatly.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
Her Ftilt will trip you every once in a while if it is angled down
Jeepy Sol
Smash Ace
Updated Zamus section. I still haven't gotten to about half of the posts. It's looking a little dissorganized right now, but that's okay, because it's a rough draft.
Awesome job so far, by the way.
Awesome job so far, by the way.
dguy6789
Smash Lord
I would say that even though a person may play as Zamus, if they openly admit that they have never played against a Lucario, I don't think their opinion should be used when discussing the matchup.
Kasai
Smash Journeyman
Lucaro is considered one of ZSS's hardest match ups. He out ranges her, kills earlier than her (because she has trouble killing) and, because of her tether recovery, is able to edge hog her if she gets below the stage (watch for upB though, because it will kill you also). I divided up some of the different aspects of the match, color coded for your convenience.
Range
Lucario outranges ZSS on all but a few moves (Fsmash, >B) and also on a few vertical moves such as upB and usmash. Although this may seem like somewhat of a large list, these moves don't carry much weight in the overall match up. Fsmash is rarely ever used as it lacks killing power and is somewhat slow. >B is very easily telegraphed and even easier to dodge because it's so slow. Assuming you don't walk into it or get unlucky with a stun gun, play smart and it won't be much of a problem. Other than these 4 moves, lucario can play smart spacing and take advantage of his superior range and can control the match.
Killing
Killing is one thing that ZSS has a lot of trouble with, which is very good for Lucario. Not only does this mean that we will live longer (duh!), but we also are able to obtain a very nice aura boost that will let us KO quite early (ZSS is a light weight, she dies quick). The main moves you want to watch out for from ZSS are bair, vB's Kick, uair and >B. In addition to this, with the stungun, she can get easy stage spikes if you aren't careful when climbing up the ledge. When going for a kill against ZSS, you have to watch range and try to avoid the dsmash and neutral B, because both can set you up for nasty combos and in some cases a quick death. Use your range and don't let her get up on you.
Damage Dealing
When it comes to racking up damage, few can do it better than ZSS. Her dsmash alone can chain twice for some nice damage and in addition to this, it leads into a grab/>B/jabs/aerials that can thus lead into tech chases and death. AVOID DSMASH LIKE THE PLAGUE.
Gimping
Don't underestimate ZSS's ability to gimp. The stun gun allows her to get you stuck in situations that you really don't want to be stuck in. In addition to this, if you try to edge hog her without invincibility frames, you can and most likely will be dragged to death as well. Remember, even though she has a tether recovery doesn't mean that she's as easy to gimp as Olimar.
Overall, I would say the match up is slightly in favor of Lucario. ZSS has a lot of nice features but when looking at this match up, many of them are on the more situational side. Lucario can out camp, out range and out aerial her in most cases and if you play smart and stick to these advantages, you'll greatly reduce the amount of time that her advantages take priority. Remember, Lucario is one of her hardest match ups, that means that everything he has, she, most likely, hates. Camp her, ***** your range (both on the ground and in air), combo her and, in general, play with a certain amount of "Lucario gayness."
Somewhere between 50:50 and 60:40 in favor of lucario.
Range
Lucario outranges ZSS on all but a few moves (Fsmash, >B) and also on a few vertical moves such as upB and usmash. Although this may seem like somewhat of a large list, these moves don't carry much weight in the overall match up. Fsmash is rarely ever used as it lacks killing power and is somewhat slow. >B is very easily telegraphed and even easier to dodge because it's so slow. Assuming you don't walk into it or get unlucky with a stun gun, play smart and it won't be much of a problem. Other than these 4 moves, lucario can play smart spacing and take advantage of his superior range and can control the match.
Killing
Killing is one thing that ZSS has a lot of trouble with, which is very good for Lucario. Not only does this mean that we will live longer (duh!), but we also are able to obtain a very nice aura boost that will let us KO quite early (ZSS is a light weight, she dies quick). The main moves you want to watch out for from ZSS are bair, vB's Kick, uair and >B. In addition to this, with the stungun, she can get easy stage spikes if you aren't careful when climbing up the ledge. When going for a kill against ZSS, you have to watch range and try to avoid the dsmash and neutral B, because both can set you up for nasty combos and in some cases a quick death. Use your range and don't let her get up on you.
Damage Dealing
When it comes to racking up damage, few can do it better than ZSS. Her dsmash alone can chain twice for some nice damage and in addition to this, it leads into a grab/>B/jabs/aerials that can thus lead into tech chases and death. AVOID DSMASH LIKE THE PLAGUE.
Gimping
Don't underestimate ZSS's ability to gimp. The stun gun allows her to get you stuck in situations that you really don't want to be stuck in. In addition to this, if you try to edge hog her without invincibility frames, you can and most likely will be dragged to death as well. Remember, even though she has a tether recovery doesn't mean that she's as easy to gimp as Olimar.
Overall, I would say the match up is slightly in favor of Lucario. ZSS has a lot of nice features but when looking at this match up, many of them are on the more situational side. Lucario can out camp, out range and out aerial her in most cases and if you play smart and stick to these advantages, you'll greatly reduce the amount of time that her advantages take priority. Remember, Lucario is one of her hardest match ups, that means that everything he has, she, most likely, hates. Camp her, ***** your range (both on the ground and in air), combo her and, in general, play with a certain amount of "Lucario gayness."
Somewhere between 50:50 and 60:40 in favor of lucario.
Timbers
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I love Kasai. You said everything I wanted to say, except in pretty colors.
But I'd put it in 60:40 Lucario's favor.
But I'd put it in 60:40 Lucario's favor.
Snakeee
Smash Master
This is what stuck out the most from your post to me because these are the stages that almost everyone counterpicks on me and I just laugh about.
First off, smaller stages are better for ZSS against Lucario than large ones, but this part is my opinion. This is because of how amazing her edgeguarding is (though that vid of me against Azen doen't exactly demonstrate that -_-).
But, onto the point. Everyone and their mother seem to counterpick those two stages you mentioned on me.
Frigate Orpheon: I have gotten gimped maybe once or twice ever in a tourney set on that side of the stage. People seem to think that ZSS is an easily gimped character, but the few people that are good with her will show that she has one of the best recoveries in the game. However, yes if you do get me to that side of the stage, I have less options to recover but it is very rare for me to get gimped because of it. Besides, it's only one side of the stage which is there only half the time.
Pictochat: I never understood why people counterpick this one really. It causes my opponent to be tied down by obstacles that are usually more easily avoided by ZSS. Her range can go through a majority of the obstacles, and they are a benefit to her in general. I guess its a small advantage that ZSS is light though, so she does end up getting hit by a strong obstacle it can KO her earlier than others so I'll give you that.
Anyway I'm not going to give any input for now other than I believe Lucario to be ZSS' hardest match up, or at least one of the top three. It's not impossible though for ZSS that's for sure.
dguy6789
Smash Lord
^
Listen to what this guy has to say, knows what he is talking about.
Listen to what this guy has to say, knows what he is talking about.
Timbers
check me out
Thanks for input regarding ZSS, Snakeee.
ZSS I feel really has no weakness on any stage. Lylat is about the best thing I've got, as her paralyzer and sideB get eaten by the tilting stage. But even then the platforms help her speedy air game. Like Lucario, I don't really feel she has a bad stage. Just keep her off of Battlefield.
ZSS I feel really has no weakness on any stage. Lylat is about the best thing I've got, as her paralyzer and sideB get eaten by the tilting stage. But even then the platforms help her speedy air game. Like Lucario, I don't really feel she has a bad stage. Just keep her off of Battlefield.
Kasai
Smash Journeyman
DuskMarthWater
Dude.
You know...that's actually how I felt, which is why I only listed two stages. I had originally put in my post that both of those stages were just theory, but I pulled it out before posting. I couldn't really come up with any really devastating stage against ZSS, it's true. She does have really few weaknesses on stages. Hmmm...I think I'm gonna edit my post after all.
However, I still stand by my opinion that the match-up is 70:30 Lucario in general. Most of the ZSS users seem to agree that Lucario is one of, if not THEE hardest match-up for their character.
Timbers
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This really needs a sticky 
Kasai
Smash Journeyman
Jeepy Sol
Smash Ace
Yes, please! ^.^
PM a Mod and tell him/her so! ( I already did a while ago )
Anyway, I updated the ZSS section. Added some info on Behavior, How to Win, and editted out the Recommended Stages, since it was proven untrue. I think we'll discuss ZSS for two, maybe three more days, and then move on to Marth.
PM a Mod and tell him/her so! ( I already did a while ago )
Anyway, I updated the ZSS section. Added some info on Behavior, How to Win, and editted out the Recommended Stages, since it was proven untrue. I think we'll discuss ZSS for two, maybe three more days, and then move on to Marth.
Timbers
check me out
nB, sideB, and dsmash.
SideB is going to be used a lot in this match, as it's her best spacing tool against Lucario. It's hard for her to get in close.
SideB is going to be used a lot in this match, as it's her best spacing tool against Lucario. It's hard for her to get in close.
How would Zamus do on a stage like Battlefield?
I would think this would be a good stage to choose against her. The platforms provide some safety from being d-smash comboed. And if a Zamus is ever on the platforms above you, you could juggle her pretty easily since she doesn't really have a very solid downward attack.
Recommended stages is kind of difficult. I agree with Lylat Cruise, though.
I would think this would be a good stage to choose against her. The platforms provide some safety from being d-smash comboed. And if a Zamus is ever on the platforms above you, you could juggle her pretty easily since she doesn't really have a very solid downward attack.
Recommended stages is kind of difficult. I agree with Lylat Cruise, though.
Samuelson
Smash Lord
I think Battlefield is a good stage for ZSS. The platforms make it easy for her to get you with Up B and Usmash.
Timbers
check me out
BF is pretty much ZSS dreamland. She's going to combo the hell out of you here.