~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Alus]

All Simna do was abuse his Mod powers out of frustration, i wouldn't exactly call that ownage. It's like arguing with a cop...who the **** do you think is going to get their way in the end?

depends on the situation...

 

[tedward2000]

So remember that one time, when we actually talked about the character and people didn't come in and brag about how good they were?
Good times.

I think, we should go back to that, and just CHILL.
-t2

 

[Conclusively]

So remember that one time, when we actually talked about the character and people didn't come in and brag about how good they were?
Good times.

I think, we should go back to that, and just CHILL.
-t2

QFT

10chillz.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Holy snap! I'm gone for 12 hours and all hell breaks loose! 0_o

Anyway, it seems people have calmed down for the most part, but in the future, let's keep personal information out.

---

I'm juggling a lot of things right now (school, college stuff, sports, keeping other threads updated, social life, etc.) so as you may have noticed, updates have been less frequent. Hopefully you guys don't mind that we slow down the pace a bit. If it's any consolation, we've already done more discussing than most other character forums.

I'm going to update today, and we can probably begin with ROB tomorrow or the day after.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

hey jeepy it might be a good idea to change the page numbers in the second post to post numbers because users can have a different number of posts per page (for example i am currently on page 28)

 

[indianunit]

On the matchups, I had split the matchup chart so that we could split up the tournament-scene characters with the not-so. Obviously this was two months ago and things have changed now, but I personally think it's going in a fine order. I mean, ROB's up next. You're crazy if you haven't seen a decent amount of ROBs at tournaments. Snake and MK are shortly after that.

Same with Falco.

By that logic we won't see Snake for about two weeks, Metaknight for about a month, Falco for about 2 months and King Dedede till next year.

Biggest reason I have my opinion on this is that, if anything, it gives characters who are rapidly accelerating in their metagames (Metaknight, lol) time to flesh it out some more, so we can have a more fully in-depth talk about what a character's capability is.

Ultimately it's up to Jeepy though, but it's just my stand on it.

I think they've already been fleshed out enough.

 

[Overswarm]

Simna.....

and ROB vs. Lucario is pretty even, FYI. It's in ROB favor if Lucario is at low %, as ROB can fairly easily gimp him (or at least do 80% or so), but at higher percentages the edge game becomes null and void and Lucario can easily kill ROB at any time in any direction. Considering ROB normally punishes opponents from the lag after their moves while Lucario's lag comes BEFORE his attacks... well that makes approach Lucario difficult. The standard reach in with jab, grab, or f-tilt usually ends with ROB getting jabbed and, from there, comboed.

 

[manhunter098]

I do want to get one thing clear on this matchup before we move on. What is everyones opinion on Double Team versus PKT2?

In my opinion it makes an attempt by Ness a lot less likely to pay off since when you could normally do an air dodge you likely have enough time to double team, which if you control it correctly can put you rather far away from where Ness will end up and pretty much just reset the playing field. Im not so much suggesting this as a method of punishment, but rather avoidance, if you arent necessarily in a position to punish PKT2. Also what do you stand to loose if you try to predict the PKT2 and DT but the Ness (who was clearly about to PKT2) decided not to, do you have to time to avoid PKT1 if Ness tries to bring it around again to hit you? Is Ness likely to be able to cancel it in time to punish you?

 

[Alus]

I do want to get one thing clear on this matchup before we move on. What is everyones opinion on Double Team versus PKT2?

In my opinion it makes an attempt by Ness a lot less likely to pay off since when you could normally do an air dodge you likely have enough time to double team, which if you control it correctly can put you rather far away from where Ness will end up and pretty much just reset the playing field. Im not so much suggesting this as a method of punishment, but rather avoidance, if you arent necessarily in a position to punish PKT2. Also what do you stand to loose if you try to predict the PKT2 and DT but the Ness (who was clearly about to PKT2) decided not to, do you have to time to avoid PKT1 if Ness tries to bring it around again to hit you? Is Ness likely to be able to cancel it in time to punish you?

y when you can just shield and then grab ness?

and if your feeling lucky FP him?

DT is only good in very special occasions and this isnt one of them...

 

[manhunter098]

Well I am more specifically talking about using it when you are in the air. Its very hard to outprioritize PKT2, Im not even sure of any attacks off the top of my head that would actually even trade blows with it for any character let alone one that Lucario has and one that can be used in the air as well.

Though on the ground if you are spaced correctly, double team might not actually end up being too bad either. Its a powerful move if Lucario has taken enough damage, and Im pretty sure you could get it to hit Ness if spaced correctly and used against his PKT2 on the ground. But thats not really what I was thinking about anyways.

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

I wouldn't risk DTing a move that's going to kill you at such a low % if your timing is off.

 

[manhunter098]

The window for DT is pretty long when you consider what it is you are trying to do. Choosing a more damaging punishment move when your chances of actually getting killed for using it are rather low seems like a viable strategy to me.

 

[Browny]

dont ever try to stop PKT2. if you think you can hit Ness before he hits himself, theres not much more you could do than if you simply shield it and punish him as it ends, while not risking 25% and a cheap KO as low as 40

 

[betterthanbonds9]

don't we get an ftilt out of grab release?

well?

edit: how long is the 6point ban?

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

regarding double team:

used in the air if it is successful it wont hit ness, but it will protect lucario.....it works about as good as an airdodge tho....if he does it too early or too late he is gonna get hit....and also.....if u double team a tailwhip-pt2 combo (double team the tailwhip) ness will have pk thunder hitting himself just as you reappear and u will fly into it


imo double team is good in this situaiton if only in the respect that u can use it as a mix-up with your air dodges, but either way its a gamble where the options are "die" or "don't die" there really isnt much to gain out of it for lucario.....if i were lucario i would just try to stay completely away from being directly above ness outside of dair range ESPECIALLY on stages with platforms, but then with Lucario's tilts the way they are i wouldnt wanna be Ness too close above lucario


EDIT @ better: the ban is 1 week

 

[manhunter098]

But you can change the direction Lucario goes when he reappears with double team, so you should be able to avoid getting hit by Ness when he launches PKT2 at you.

Also, I was wondering if Lucario could double team after the tailwhip, but Im not sure if that is a true combo or not, if its not a true combo, then Lucario should be able to double team before he is hit by PKT2, and depending on how he returns he might be in a good position to punish, but Im definitely not positive about that.

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

tailwhip-pkt2 can be both inescapable and escapable depending on what part of the tail u are touching, but even in the escapable one there is only a VERY small time to act

double team does slow lucario's fall a little(little) bit but it also leaves him immobile in the air after the counter frames are done...which can leave him in a bad spot....

and abusing ness after missing would be very hard....he has very little lag after hit pk thunder hits something....thje only reason ppl are able to abuse him OOS is because after he hits their shield his attack is still going on, but it cant hit them anymore so they are free to drop shield and attack before his normal ending lag even starts


EDIT: what you could do that i think would be a safe measure to avoid PKT2 with a high success rate would be to use extremespeed up and/or away from ness as far as possible.....the big thing u would have to watch out for doing that tho is if u go up into the air with extremespeed and ness decides to floor his thunder rather than hit himself it could mean a problem for you


EDIT 2: a lot of it has to do with the stage, but on battlefield for instance if Ness is on the top platform and you are somewhere above the stage in the air and he is going to PKT2 you......you could extremespeed away from him and swirve it downward at the end and fastfall to quickly get below platforms where ness cant go because he is on top of the middle one....unless of course he did a drop/jump before starting pk thunder and then he can go anywhere but at a slightly decreased range

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

EDIT: what you could do that i think would be a safe measure to avoid PKT2 with a high success rate would be to use extremespeed up and/or away from ness as far as possible

Are you even trying to be serious any more?

You know what, I give up. We should just move on and let the Ness mains continue deluding themselves.

 

[Samuelson]

I think it would pretty amazing if a Ness was able to hit Lucario with PKT2 while Lucario was using ES

 

[FzeroX]

I think all that you need to do to avoid PKT2 is use mindgames, say for example you see a ness about to use it, well then you can dair. Since that stops all verticle momentum it would trick the ness so then you can just punish the ness as he falls helplessly.

Also you could mix things up with and airdodge, I heard those things give invicibility, that would be too good in this situation, cause then you could land much faster then use Upsmash YAYZZZZZZZZZ.

Finally you could ES at the ness, and if you are good you could hit them with it, prolly about 1.6 times every two matches. Cause we all know that ES has more priority than PKT2, amirite.

SO, in conclusion I say lucario has the advantage over PKT2 in this match-up, so when are we moving on to the PK fire match-up, cause that is going to be a tough one.

 

[Tomkraven]

omg... this discussion about pkt2 is driving me crazy... just spot dodge it if he goes to the stage or edgehog him with ES... pkt2 isnt that good.

 

[Browny]

GG you guys making lucario mains look like idiots in this thread. You all need to go and read the rules

 

[Pentaoku]

GG you guys making lucario mains look like idiots in this thread. You all need to go and read the rules

I'm not seeing the idiocy from the other fellows man, care to point them out for me? Maybe I'm just slow but man, I'm just not seeing it. Please do show me.

...And I did read the rules man... after going over them, I didn't exactly see what in this thread was worth six points of infractions.

R.O.B. next, we've already gotten Overswarm's opinion (mostly even) and I can't wait to hear more. R.O.B. is a match up I constantly get into close games with so it looks to be a good week, or so I hope.

 

[Samuelson]

GG you guys making lucario mains look like idiots in this thread. You all need to go and read the rules

WHAT?!

I don't think you should be in the Lucario boards if you're gonna be like that

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

loool at these signatures....thats a good one


and anyone who says to shield or sidestep pkt2 isnt even reading posts....really this whole topic is a lol...only a few ppl are actually caring to read/discuss while others are just skimming and disregarding

 

[FzeroX]

I actually read what you said and agree with what you say for the most part, but I am just mad you banned Dguy, grrrr

 

[Nurotasama]

loool at these signatures....thats a good one


and anyone who says to shield or sidestep pkt2 isnt even reading posts....really this whole topic is a lol...only a few ppl are actually caring to read/discuss while others are just skimming and disregarding

Would you just quit posting so we can get back on-topic? This is the one topic that is actually still on topic 3 posts later for the most part, and your pointless infractions and constant bickering over un-related issues are really derailing the thread.

 

[Alus]

uhh...guys dont you think that the "justice for Dguy!" thing is going a little out of hand???

he will be back by next week anyway its not like he got permabanned or anything...

 

[Alus]

I think all that you need to do to avoid PKT2 is use mindgames, say for example you see a ness about to use it, well then you can dair. Since that stops all verticle momentum it would trick the ness so then you can just punish the ness as he falls helplessly.

Also you could mix things up with and airdodge, I heard those things give invicibility, that would be too good in this situation, cause then you could land much faster then use Upsmash YAYZZZZZZZZZ.

Finally you could ES at the ness, and if you are good you could hit them with it, prolly about 1.6 times every two matches. Cause we all know that ES has more priority than PKT2, amirite.

SO, in conclusion I say lucario has the advantage over PKT2 in this match-up, so when are we moving on to the PK fire match-up, cause that is going to be a tough one.

you say it like its not so difficult...

and PKT2 has a much larger hitbox than you think + it comes very fast....
and most nesses wont attack you when they are that high in the air

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Comes very fast? Bwah?

Ness: PK Thunder!
*2 days later*
Ness: BLAAAHAHGH!
Ganondorf: Oh ****! That was incredibly unexpected and totally not the most blatantly telegraphed move in the entire game! *Dies*

Seriously, I want some of whatever the Ness mains are smoking. I mean, if it makes NESS look that good, imagine how it'll make Lucario look.

By the way, I find mindgames to be useful for avoiding Ganon's utilt, but it's not always that easy. It has such a large hitbox!

 

[Alus]

Comes very fast? Bwah?

Ness: PK Thunder!
*2 days later*
Ness: BLAAAHAHGH!
Lucario: Oh ****! That was incredibly unexpected and totally not the most blatantly telegraphed move in the entire game! *Dies*

........that would be gannondorf my friend......

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

My bad, I fixed it.

 

[Kasai]

Posted this in the Ness forums thread but mainly just as a rebuttal against some other points being made. Figured I'd move it here for discussion or whatever.


As far as the range goes, it seems that in the air, Lucario has the advantage of range for everything other than:
Fair (Ness > Lucario in range)

On the ground, I can't really think of any moves Ness has that really outranges the Lucario "bread and butter" (which consists mainly of Fsmash, ftilt and in some cases, jabs) other than maybe the dash attack.

Overall, I would say that it's even. Lucario has range and power when he gets to higher %'s. Ness can cancel out aura sphere thus forcing Lucario to approach (which he is less than stellar at). Nothing really jumps out when thinking of advantages and I would probably call it 50-50.

 

[Jeepy Sol]

People. Do you know why next to each name I put what page the discussion starts on? So that someone who wasn't here while we were discussing will be able to go to that page and read all the information on that character. Obviously, I can't put everything said into the write-up, though I'd love to...
Anyway, I'd appreciate it if we could get back on topic, let bygons be bygons, and keep the immature bickering to PMs. People reading these Ness pages are going to be extremely confused.

 

[manhunter098]

tailwhip-pkt2 can be both inescapable and escapable depending on what part of the tail u are touching, but even in the escapable one there is only a VERY small time to act

double team does slow lucario's fall a little(little) bit but it also leaves him immobile in the air after the counter frames are done...which can leave him in a bad spot....

and abusing ness after missing would be very hard....he has very little lag after hit pk thunder hits something....thje only reason ppl are able to abuse him OOS is because after he hits their shield his attack is still going on, but it cant hit them anymore so they are free to drop shield and attack before his normal ending lag even starts


EDIT: what you could do that i think would be a safe measure to avoid PKT2 with a high success rate would be to use extremespeed up and/or away from ness as far as possible.....the big thing u would have to watch out for doing that tho is if u go up into the air with extremespeed and ness decides to floor his thunder rather than hit himself it could mean a problem for you


EDIT 2: a lot of it has to do with the stage, but on battlefield for instance if Ness is on the top platform and you are somewhere above the stage in the air and he is going to PKT2 you......you could extremespeed away from him and swirve it downward at the end and fastfall to quickly get below platforms where ness cant go because he is on top of the middle one....unless of course he did a drop/jump before starting pk thunder and then he can go anywhere but at a slightly decreased range

If there is any time to act at all its really pretty easy. Once you get hit by the tail you KNOW what is coming so you can spam your double team at that time, and the moment you are actualy capable of using it it will activate. Just because a window is small doesnt mean that you cant react. What is difficult to react to are moves that have a very short startup and lead into other moves in a small number of frames, like DIing out of Metaknights f-air for example.


On extremespeed, I think that the startup is way too long. Its out of the question if you are tailwhipped too. Though in some cases maybe you could use it to grab the edge, but if you really have the time to use extremespeed you have time enough to do something else.

 

[OneWingedAngelo1]

Would you just quit posting so we can get back on-topic? This is the one topic that is actually still on topic 3 posts later for the most part, and your pointless infractions and constant bickering over un-related issues are really derailing the thread.

You do realize that what he says has absolutely nothing to do with getting off topic... if you think that the things he says only furthers off topic post then stop responding to them... I am pretty sure ignoring someone's post is no where in the "Things not to do on this website"... >_>

Also isn't off topic posts something that all you Lucario's brag about doing oh so much?

But to add to what Erich said about Frigate Orpheon, since he really didn't back up his claim on it..

In the first stage of it, the lack of a ledge can mess with Ness's recovery, even though the guy can more then likely get back to the stage from that side he has nothing to grab onto and is forced to just land on the stage which will allow you to prepare a punishment for him to send him right back off.

In the second stage of it, the two small platforms that come out on the sides can mess with the aiming of Ness's Thunder >> Thunder 2 for his recovery as they would absorb the Thunder if it hit from above.

But do becareful while on this stage with him, because while he is on the stage the lay out of it is decently formated for his fighting style.

Other stages I would suggest...

Brinstar: This isn't Smash 64 any more this stage can mess with Ness

Hanebow: If you really are worried about his PK Thunder and PK Thunder2 this stage might be a good optin for you, with the many ledges to get in the way of the Thunder. (I really don't know why this stage is still legal...>_> )

 

[Timbers]

Jeepy I'ma be gone a few days, so I'll update chart (or if you want to do it instead) when I get back

 

[Simna ibn Sind]

yeah manhunter it would be possible to double team a noncombo tailwhip=pkt2....when i was talking about using extremespeed tho i didnt mean for tailwhip....i just meant for ness hitting himself at you

 

[Samuelson]

Why is there so much argument over PKT2?! If you let us Lucario mains think it sucks then that will just make the match up much easier for you right? I understand if you're trying to help but i kind of think everybody is getting annoyed now.

I think we should just agree to disagree about how good PKT2 is!!!

 

[Zero_Gamer]

Guys... don't feed trolls (this is not targeted at anyone in particular because I don't want anyone arguing over something so stupid and shooting someone down will just bring the PK Failure back )

I've sort of lost track of when we're supposed to switch characters, but I too am interested in what others have to say about the R.O.B. matchup. I've fought a decent one at a tournament and I just learned that his Bair has a freaking huge wtfbox. It's really difficult to punish because his whole body is a hitbox with enormous priority and it pushes him back to make him even less punishable.