~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

[Timbers]

O rly? It's happened to me (like once) and it got me a star K.O. lol

It's cause Luc's entire body is a hitbox when he uses his uair. Basically you have to be far enough away from the key to do it. Technically you're in dair range, but he didn't space the key properly and missed you.

Don't try it too often.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

Even if you don't tech G&W's Dthrow its pretty hard to get hit by Dsmash. Luc is one of those lucky characters I guess.

...but yeah chase>Usmash hurts like a mother :O

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Alright, I edited the post. Is it easier on the eyes now? Hopefully, hehe.

And I posted that somewhere in the GINORMOUS post I just made. YES, you can tech the dthrow. It is indeed possible. I don't have the timing down yet, mostly 'cause I'm too lazy to go practice it right now, but yea you can tech it. I've done it before. It's just like teching Falco/Fox's dthrow in Melee. In fact, I'll go test it again right now.

EDIT: Just kidding. The timing's pathetically easy. Wow. Go do some practice with a sibling or something, and you'll see. It's so easy. You just press L or R right as you get thrown down into the ground.

You know...that wall of white still hurts my own eyes. I'm gonna change the color of some of the paragraphs.

thanks for the edit, it was a very informative read (as i noted earlier, i have very little experience against G&W). And i think me and timbers just proved the point that very few even know you can tech it...i had only of heard it, never seen it.

Gaw's Dair>Lucario's uair.

Unless you hit on the side of him, which doesn't count

this is just a habit i got into when playing zelda, but most of the time when i use a uair i ff after the puff is out and I'm pretty sure that hits G&W.
-doesn't his key beat our usmash or is this just another zelda thing im thinking of?

EDIT: one other little thing (i feel like the grandpa in jackie chan adventures, awesome show) I've heard that gabbing G as he uses the up b (if you get the chance that is) produces a snake-esque scene where no matter what G is gonna die

 

[Col. Stauffenberg]

Correct, G&W's (And Sonic's) up-b can be gimped by grabbing and not attacking the same way Snake's can.

Granted, a good G&W (or Sonic) is very unlikely to let that happen, but it's good to know regardless.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Correct, G&W's (And Sonic's) up-b can be gimped by grabbing and not attacking the same way Snake's can.

Granted, a good G&W (or Sonic) is very unlikely to let that happen, but it's good to know regardless.

sonic too, learn something new everyday

but yeah, it isn't gonna happen, but hey, knowing tidbits is pretty helpful

 

[Timbers]

The aurabox follows Luc, it won't stay there if he ff's.

Usmash's initial frames beat out the key, but honestly it's not worth it unless you're desperate for a killmove on GaW.

 

[Conclusively]

Wouldn't it just be better to dodge the key then forward tilt him or something?

 

[betterthanbonds9]

The aurabox follows Luc, it won't stay there if he ff's.

Usmash's initial frames beat out the key, but honestly it's not worth it unless you're desperate for a killmove on GaW.

i could've sworn that uair hitbox stays out if you ff....I'm 99% sure I've done it

EDIT: i knew i had read it somewhere too

U-Air: The hitbox comes out just as fast as N-air's. The U-air has some interesting characteristics. If you jump, and at the height of it U-air, then fastfall, the hitbox will stay where it first came out.

-from the frame data topic
--jeepy, does the uair really come out as fast as the nair? I lost brawl about a week ago (on the bright side, my melee is getting better Sheik/Doc ftw) so all my stuff is theory, but my instinct says that uair is slower.

 

[Conclusively]

knvm. ^ edited post.

 

[deadringers]

Against G&W as long as you don't feed him aura spheres for his bucket id say the match isn't a bad one i like to stay above G&W at high percents because dair beats his nugget every time. In this match up i think G&W's lightness plays against him once you hit high percent lucarios f-smash beats his match in range and priority. Mind you if G&W hits you with his god awful smashes it gg for you G&W's smashes hit entirely to hard.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Against G&W as long as you don't feed him aura spheres for his bucket id say the match isn't a bad one i like to stay above G&W at high percents because dair beats his nugget every time. In this match up i think G&W's lightness plays against him once you hit high percent lucarios f-smash beats his match in range and priority. Mind you if G&W hits you with his god awful smashes it gg for you G&W's smashes hit entirely to hard.

nugget?

10wuts

 

[Nines~Tempest]

nugget?

10wuts

yeah, I dun get it :|

 

[Timbers]

i could've sworn that uair hitbox stays out if you ff....I'm 99% sure I've done it

EDIT: i knew i had read it somewhere too

-from the frame data topic
--jeepy, does the uair really come out as fast as the nair? I lost brawl about a week ago (on the bright side, my melee is getting better Sheik/Doc ftw) so all my stuff is theory, but my instinct says that uair is slower.

It doesn't. The hitbox follows Luc >_>

 

[Jeepy Sol]

Maybe you're right. I just remember doing it in 1/4 speed whilst testing frame data and I remember the orb of aura being seperated from his foot if you u-air at the peak of your jump and then fast fall. I didn't check if the hitbox actually stayed there, but it looked like it did.

And BTB, I honestly have no idea why u-airs hitbox comes out as soon as n-airs. >.>

But I did say that u-air comes out on frame 10 and n-air comes out on frame 7.

 

[Timbers]

It might be for animation purposes, however the hitbox definitely follows Luc.

oh and GaW's key falls a lot faster than Lucario's ff, >_>

 

[DuskMarthWater]

So...does the slight change of topic mean people are done with G&W? I don't think we're done. I still don't think that the match-up stats are accurate. I think we need to get that out of the way. I already put my vote in with legitimate reasons as to why in my colossal post near the end. What does everyone else say?

 

[Timbers]

We're still on topic. It was asked if Luc's uair could beat out GaW's key, and we went into discussion on that.

As for the matchup, it's a *******.

Gaw's only arguable weakspot is above him, and his uair still covers that really well. It's perhaps even more difficult to deal with than any other uair in the game. It forces you to the edge or land next to him, which is definitely bad.

The only spacing tool you have in this match is fsmash. I would really never recommend rolling into GaW. If you're going to punish his bair, do it by airdodging the turtle and then dairing on top of him.

I don't really know what else to say. The only weakness GaW has here is that it's easy to make him whiff an attack and set up for a killer (fsmash or aurasphere) and he's very light. Which does make it good.

We lose a lot of our spacing game and aerial domination, and auraboost wont live long. You'll be lucky to survive past 120%.

 

[Browny]

if you see the turtle coming it probably wouldnt hurt to chuck out a few DT's. its not as if G&W is quick enough to punish a whiffed DT by landing and then getting a smash off, and shielding the turtle will only end up in getting hurt anyway

 

[betterthanbonds9]

yeah, I dun get it :|

i meant what move is the "nugget" only thing i can think of is his frying pan/sausage fest

It might be for animation purposes, however the hitbox definitely follows Luc.

oh and GaW's key falls a lot faster than Lucario's ff, >_>

well, if the hitbox does stay out then I'm wondering if that's an effective wall against the key so it would look like this


G
key+uair hitbox
key's reach
lucario

and lucario is magically safe...or something

 

[Zero_Gamer]

G&W approaches with turtle:
--> Shield --> spot dodge final hit --> grab
--> Aura Sphere
--> Fsmash

G&W's strong smashes don't make up for the short range in this matchup. Lucario's Fsmash alone forces the player to go by something other than the turtle and this severely limits a G&W's ability. Lucario's aerial mobility and Fsmash and smart play will make G&W's smashes almost unusable making him that much easier.

 

[manhunter098]

Well at least you dont really need to depend on auraboost in this matchup. If you get killed then G&W is only going to be a little tough to finish off instead of incredibly easy to kill. He really is incredibly light. Seriously if he was the same weight as Lucario I would rank him with Snake and MK.

 

[dj_pwn1423]

G&W approaches with turtle:
--> Shield --> spot dodge final hit --> grab
--> Aura Sphere
--> Fsmash

G&W's strong smashes don't make up for the short range in this matchup. Lucario's Fsmash alone forces the player to go by something other than the turtle and this severely limits a G&W's ability.

You are assuming G&W needs to approach you, he really doesn't. Its not like Fsmash is the fastest thing in the world either, it is still possible to get punished by Bair.

Lucario's aerial mobility and Fsmash and smart play will make G&W's smashes almost unusable making him that much easier.

G&W's aerial priority and the bucket and smart play will make this one of lucario's hardest match ups.

c wut I did thar.


In all seriousness you shouldn't really be talking about "smart play" in a match up thread. If you need to make more effort than the other player to win the match, you know something's wrong :/

 

[betterthanbonds9]

G&W approaches with turtle:
--> Shield --> spot dodge final hit --> grab
--> Aura Sphere
--> Fsmash

can't G just retreat the bair?
after the first time (if not on the first time) bucket says hello, and good night
slow, G can 1. shield 2. roll 3. run away in fear 4. dash>utilt 5.dash>dtilt 6. jump 7. there's gotta be something i missed. 8 there's usually at least 2 things i miss in this matchup

---- 1-3 are more likely, but if you're predictable say hi to 4-????

 

[Timbers]

well, if the hitbox does stay out then I'm wondering if that's an effective wall against the key so it would look like this


G
key+uair hitbox
key's reach
lucario

and lucario is magically safe...or something

Until the GaW learns he can magically control his DI while using key.

At the very best, you'll exchange hits. I'd rather not get key ***** and just do something more effective, like-

Wouldn't it just be better to dodge the key then forward tilt him or something?

Except ftilt=grab/jab.

 

[Timbers]

double poast.

GaWs on GaW vs. Lucario

G&W is a nightmare matchup for Lucario. There are three big problems for Lucario:

First, the bucket will obviously shut down most AS usage and it will eat up FP flames. Despite the lag that comes from the first TWO absorptions (lag is significantly cut down on the 3rd absorption), I will definately take a hit in exchange for charging up a 0-death attack.

Second, G&W kill Lucario very, VERY quickly compared to other characters. All of G&W's smashes and his Fair offstage are brutal and can kill Lucario at ~90% with ease. This really weakens one of Lucario's greatest attributes; his Aura. Lucario preys on characters that struggle at KOing him because he becomes beastly at ~120%, but this isn't the case against G&W.

Third, G&W's Uair > Lucario's Dair. Lucario's Dair is such a leet move because of its range, power, spammability, and ability to stop his inertia. Unfortunately for Lucario, G&W's Uair nullifies Lucario's Dair hardcore because of the wind push.

Lucario is also in trouble when he's recovering. G&W will latch on to the edge and be safe because ES has no hitbox. This will force Lucario to wallcling where he can be nailed with a slowfall Dair spike, an Up B to push him back offstage, or some other attack. Basically, don't get Dsmashed by G&W.

Lucario generally has no problems with killing because of his jab (every hit refreshes stale moves) and his insanely fast grab attack. He'll be hard pressed having to LAND a kill move on G&W because his smashes are telegraphed (but boy do they have amazing reach and duration) and G&W's recovery is nearly impossible to gimp. If you're certain you can land it, Double Team is a very good kill move on G&W when both %s of characters are in triple digits.

Due to the nature of G&W's attacks (huge disjointed hitboxes, very long duration of said hitboxes, high priority, low lag, and IASA frames) Lucario is going to be in for a very, very hard matchup against a good G&W.

Avoid Rainbow Cruise at all costs. That is G&W's playground. Stick with linear stages with few platforms so G&W can't obliterate Lucario with all sorts of different angled approaches.

7:3 in favor of G&W.

G&W vs Lucario is an easy matchup in my opinion. It's largely because G&W simply has better physics and is better at scoring KOs at low percents.

G&W outmaneuvers Lucario and has better lingering hitboxes with better priority. Lucario cannot safely D-air G&W because G&W's Up-B and U-air stall beats that (U-air stalling counts towards stale moves).

Lucario's other problem is that G&W happens to be extremely vicious at scoring KOs at low percents, AND ledgeguarding. It's not incredibly hard to roll the wrong way and eat a U-smash from a G&W who is good at techchasing, and G&W has no trouble jumping all the way to the magnified zone and still making it back to the stage in order to ledgeguard.

All in all surviving a long time is difficult for Lucario in this matchup, so his exploits from Aura will be fairly minimal. Lucario also happens to be bad at killing vertically, which doesn't help him either, and most of his kill moves are somewhat easy to see coming in general.

gaw ***** lucariooos

roll spam sucks, big time. If you approach too much with the turtle, they will probably punish with a spaced fsmash or roll to jab etc. If you approach w/ nairs overhead, they can probably utilt as thats really fast. Also the upsmash beats the key. On paper, lucario has a lot of crap to work around, but they can be extremely annoying. Getting buckets will help alot, as there is no good upsmash of lucario's to punish you hard for it. If they are really close they could fsmash, but i just wouldn't absorb something thaaat close. So basically forcing them to approach you is the best bet.

As gw, avoid frigate orpheon, as lucario, avoid rainbow cruise.

Honestly...everything they said I feel is correct. 7:3 in GaW's favor is maybe too much...but 65:35 sounds reasonable to me =\

If anyone can read these over and share your opinion on them, go ahead.

 

[ckm]

honestly, there are really only two big advantages that g&w has:

1) he can bucket AS (seriously, how many times have you had fp bucketed? if this happens alot, youre too dang predictable)

2) he KOs at early percents


If you are careful/tricky with your AS usage (dont try to shoot him with one from across FD, or when hes far off the stage and youre on it), this is not such a huge disadvantage. G&W dies very easily, so the two main uses for AS (doing damage and KOing) are not as necessary. Just use AS intelligently (mostly to punish or combo), and it will be nearly impossible to get bucketed. If you find yourself fightng him when he has 2 AS in his bucket already, lay off on the AS. Its that simple.

As far as getting KO'd early... other than tech chasing with upsmash or catching a failed tech with a dsmash out of dthrow (which would be your own dang fault), his best KO moves are fairly easy to outrange and avoid. fsmash easily outranges his dsmash and fsmash. Bair can be shielded and punished if you just know it is multi-hit.

70-30 is a bit too much, IMO. 60-40 at most.

 

[Timbers]

What about his aerial game totally dominating yours, impossible to gimp, and good edgeguard game, and it's impossible to space him >_>?

 

[dj_pwn1423]

G&W is a happier camper to :O

 

[PhantomX]

I think you guys are forgetting that Game and Watch doesn't have that effective a method of punishing rolls, and Luc's roll is stupid fast.

 

[Nines~Tempest]

What about his aerial game totally dominating yours, impossible to gimp, and good edgeguard game, and it's impossible to space him >_>?

This is why I've always hated G&W <________<;

Though, what does lucario have on him? I know he has something, since Anther from AiB counter picks Lucario for G&W, and someone that good isn't stupid.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

What about his aerial game totally dominating yours, impossible to gimp, and good edgeguard game, and it's impossible to space him >_>?

Fsmash and Aura Sphere, light weight, agreed, Fsmash and Aura Sphere. Before you comment on Aura Sphere, a turtle/a hammer/ a torch/ a key =/= bucket. Control is lost, but punishment is still there.

I think you guys are forgetting that Game and Watch doesn't have that effective a method of punishing rolls, and Luc's roll is stupid fast.

Dsmash.

 

[PhantomX]

Fsmash and Aura Sphere, light weight, agreed, Fsmash and Aura Sphere. Before you comment on Aura Sphere, a turtle/a hammer/ a torch/ a key =/= bucket. Control is lost, but punishment is still there.



Dsmash.

Lol, you're not gonna roll INTO the guy... what are you thinking? XD

He can't easily punish your rolling away from him (for spacing or fsmashing), especially if he's already committed to a turtle or some other move.

 

[betterthanbonds9]

Lol, you're not gonna roll INTO the guy...

Usually that's what it means....otherwise the only choice is a projectile by your definition.

Spoiler

is samus amazing at punishing rolls? not with projectiles...

 

[Nines~Tempest]

Usually that's what it means....otherwise the only choice is a projectile by your definition.

Spoiler

is samus amazing at punishing rolls? not with projectiles...

Sonic can punish rolls by going into tilts after his dash attack (if it hits late in the attack).

 

[Timbers]

Fsmash and Aura Sphere, light weight, agreed, Fsmash and Aura Sphere. Before you comment on Aura Sphere, a turtle/a hammer/ a torch/ a key =/= bucket. Control is lost, but punishment is still there.

Auraspheres get outprioritized by a lot of GaW's stuff. his fair and bair eats a lot of aurasphere, I don't know percentage on which aurasphere will outprioritize him though. Fsmash is generally a bad idea to try and constantly space against Gaw, as his approaches are always aerial.

Lightweight, but if he kills you before you kill him, it's still not gonna be till like 140-150% where he actually dies.

*

One of the GaWs mentioned this, and it makes sense. Luc has nothing good to punish a bucket with. The most he can do is dash attack a laggy bucket, and even then Luc is kinda slow and dash attack sucks.

I dunno, I don't want to make it sound like it's a completely one sided match, but the GaWs pretty much hit the head on the nail. I can't think of anything that Luc can do to GaW except fsmash, shad dairs, and higher percent fc auraspheres.

Lol, you're not gonna roll INTO the guy... what are you thinking? XD

He can't easily punish your rolling away from him (for spacing or fsmashing), especially if he's already committed to a turtle or some other move.

While GaW may or may not be able to pressure rollers, a Lucario moving close to the edge against GaW is a very bad idea.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Hmmm...I still think that G&W isn't as hard a match-up as those posts by the G&W players say. Notice how none of them mention you can tech the dthrow, or that you have more priority than the stupid turtle. Really, 70:30 is just RIDICULOUS. Obviously he's never played a good Lucario, whoever that was. I would say 60:40 G&W. If you have really good spacing, this match-up shouldn't be too much of a problem. If you don't space so well...then you're in for a very rough time. I definitely think that much. But I'm like, the god of spacing(I was in Melee too. If you ever played me you would know. The one comment of frustration I got in almost every single match was: WHY DO YOU SPACE AS GOOD AS KEN?!?!?!?), so I don't really have too much trouble with it. Sorry for all you Lucario users who don't space well. Learn it, it's the best possible thing to learn. If you learn to space well, you will rarely ever get punished, and you will always connect with the sweetspots. Yea, it's pretty awesome.

And the aurasphere beats out the bair at ANY percentage, so long as it's a fully charged AS. Therefore you have a much, much bigger range than he does. The fsmash does too, but the turtle can go over that if you don't space well. Roll-dodging is not advised either, unless you have good timing and can get behind his turtle quick enough. Otherwise don't try it, 'cause he'll punish you for it. You can always just jump over it and do an aerial like the dair too. Not that hard.

As for the uair beating our dair...I already stated that it does. It's almost as dumb as the turtle, if not worse. It keeps you in the air, and it also replenishes G&W's stale moves while he's doing it. ******** much?? But if you just stay calm and use your options(such as keeping your double jump if you haven't already used it), you should be able to avoid any attack he tries to pull on you from there. That's probably the move that a Lucario player should fear the most in this match-up.

Always remember that you can tech the dthrow. It'll save you countless times. And make you live to higher percentages.

And the bucket? G&W should never even have the bucket out in this match. Seriously. If he pulls out the bucket either A.) you made a mistake or B.) you mindgamed him.

Anyways, those are my main points. G&W WILL beat you if you don't space well enough, and I mean precise spacing. But if you do space well, the match becomes much more even and dependent of skill level. So 60:40 G&W is what I think.

 

[G-Beast]

what i like to do vs GaW is let his get me to 40-50%, than play a defensive game of not letting him hit me with anything. when he is trying to recover predict when and start the dair or aura sphere before he uses his Uspecial, and if he uses it he will generally get his unless you get really unlucky. as for the bucket.... just leave Aura sphere alone till hes vulnerable, or let him eat only ONE and punish the lag he gets, however little it is, with a fsmash. in my experience, GaW's Usmash is near useless, so long to hit and so little hitboxes; theres really no reason you should be getting hit by it. DO NOT let him grab you because a Dthrow -> Dsmash almost always works(if you manage to hit right on your Dpad at the exact right time you will avoid it). Fsmash, one really needs to be careful of it due to its KO potential at low %, but if you see it comign and your too close, its slow enough to get your shield up and grab him afterwards or jab or even dtilt him and then follow with fsmash is you dtilt.

P.S. Dtilt -> fsmash works well at low -> mid %. also the bucket will kill you at 0% as im sure we all know...

 

[dguy6789]

I agree with the majority of what has been said, but not to the same extent. G&W is no worse than 40:60 matchup wise in favor of G&W.

I will try and keep it brief so as not to make people read what has already been said numerous times.

G&W kills early. This is normally bad for Lucario because it nullifies his aura boost, but it isn't that bad in this case. G&W is easy to kill in the first place, so he doesn't require a significant aura boost to get KOed.

G&W wins in the air hands down, no discussion. Just like Marth, there is no quick fix for this. If you are going to fight G&W in the air, you simply have to be superior player when it comes to spacing.

Baby aura sphere spam should never be used against G&W. Far too easy to fill a bucket up with. Only use fully charged shots against G&W, use them at non obvious times, and use them sparingly at that. This decreases the chance that a G&W will bucket a shot. You have room for two mistakes. A 2/3rds full bucket is still totally useless, the Lucario player only needs to be able to restrain himself from the urge to fire another once the bucket is at 2/3. Force Palm flames can contribute to filling up a bucket, but that is mostly a non issue because of how often a good Lucario will be using the Force Palm flame.

Fsmash is an important tool because it is one of the few(only) moves that are just plain better than G&W's equivalents. Be careful of overuse though, as you don't want this move to get stale.

This match is in G&W's favor, but it isn't as bad as some people suggest(Easy for G&W, Impossible for Lucario etc....). The only way for a Lucario to win this matchup is to outplay his opponent across the board. No nifty tricks for this one.

 

[Timbers]

You can't space with anything Lucario has except fsmash. Gaw's Bair has a greater range than anything you have but fsmash.

And yeah full auraspheres out prioritize the bair at any percent. His fair outprioritizes them until 160%.

But I dunno, I just feel GaW takes advantage of Luc all too well. Uair shuts down Luc's best aerial defense; the dair. He's already floaty as it is, and GaW can safely juggle him with uairs and uBs. At least his bair/fair has a considerable amount of lag on it, but just know that they're able to pull out a bair and DI towards you at the same time you buffer a fsmash, and they'd hit you first.

GaW moves around a lot, I've found it hard to space him correctly unless he completely whiffs.

And I don't know why people get the idea that I'm calling it a hopeless match. It's just difficult. Not impossible.

 

[Zero_Gamer]

I think that there is something that some of you don't know:
Game and Watch's Dthrow --> Dsmash combo ONLY works on light weights that do not tech.
Game and Watch's Dthrow --> Dsmash combo does NOT work on Lucario if you tech. You don't even need to tech, just hold the control stick in whatever direction you want.