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~Lucario Match-Up Chart/Discussion- Rotation Eighteen: Olimar~

Timbers

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Luigis on Luigi vs Lucario:

Lol. If it's for that matchup chart thinggy or that inverse thread then lol to that x]

Although I posted extensively I'll be happy to post for you since i'm bored as hell.

-What specific troubles do you have with Lucario as a Luigi player? Does Lucario shut down any of your game?

Most likely the common Dair if hes above you, but i've found my ways around that as long it comes into timing, the WoP Fair is pretty homo, also his wavebouncing! THAT THING PISSES ME OFF SON. Great mindgame though. His aura sphere and his instant steriods (lmao) when hes behind in stocks and probably a Force Palm CG at early %s
-What advantages do you feel Lucario has against you?

He wins against ground game and projectile game. His fully charged or half way charged Aura sphere can be tricky against spotdodgers because they'll somewhat mess up on dodging it. Also it cancels out fireballs and tornado. He also wins in the air ONLY if hes below you because his upair > everything we got.

-What disadvantages do you feel Lucario has against you?
Personally, I thought Lucario sucked at gimping until I saw that I'm unable to camp holding the edge because a shorthop Dair leads to a stage spike forcing Luigi to either a ko or a rising tornado last resort move.

-Is there any method or strategic goal you would use to win this match?
Probably a empty SH OR a shorthopped fireball with tornado as it covers the ground pretty much elsewhere.

-What stages would you want to counterpick against a Lucario? What stages would you want to avoid?

If anything, I'd avoid yoshi's island since I know about Lucario's wall cling techique. Also I'd like to avoid places with campers like FD, sometimes Smashville (although I'd pick this as a counter or whatever or a great startoff because I know how to abuse that moving platform decently). Probably I'd pick lylat cruise and battlefield because Luigi dominates purely there and its aerial combo heaven for him not to mention lylat tilts occasionally messing up Lucario's recovery. Also I think luigi's mansion is the best place for counterpicking because it ruins projectiles, you can effin utilt the living crap outta them because of the low ceiling in the mansion. Maybe I'd like to avoid Delflino probably cus there's wall clinging stuff for Lucario
Well I don't have enough time to leave as nice of a post as the previous two beasts, but heres what I got.

One of my roommates plays Lucario fairly well, so I know how to get around a lot of his techniques. With Lucario I am very scared of getting too close to him on the ground. Lucario has amazing grap opportunities and powershielding makes me a little nervous to approach with short hopped nairs. I have found, however, that I can easily approach with the tornado as long as Lucario does NOT have a fully charged aura blast in store for me, considering it will clang against a weaker charge.

I feel that I cannot gimp Lucario no matter what I try to do. Lucario has great recovery, and wall of paining the back air does not seem to cut it for me at this point. It works at high percents, but I simply cannot gimp him. I do, however, think that Lucario is outmatched by Luigi in the air, simply because Luigi's Uair can get through Lucario's dair fairly easily when spaced properly. I also think Lucario's floatiness is really a problem against Luigi, you can juggle him very easily.

When dealing with Lucario I play the fireball game at low percents, primarily because its faster than spamming uncharged aura spheres. It works wonders for approaching, and my Lucario friend cannot seem to deal with it very well. I also work in rising tornados off stage simply because its too fast for Lucario's laggy air game to deal with. The only problem is that I get waaaay to itchy for the uppercut when Lucario gets to that breaking point where the aura becomes a problem. I want to get rid of Lucario before his aura becomes a problem, and get punished for it a lot..... Take advantage of this ^_^

As far as stages go, I go with battlefield or lylat. Pretty much anything with platforms. Works wonders :)

Hope I could be of some help.
 

Trapt497

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I keep forgetting to add things but just in case here's another tidbit. Luigi can be attacked while doing a rising nado if you attack him on top of his head ( Think of it as a Mk doing a whorenado) Also, since Luigi's will like to green missle to sweet spot the ledge, you can always first grab the edge, jump, ledgehop attack with Bair (although i dont know if this hitbox lasts long but just use a aerial that has a lasting hitbox) I've gotten killed by a Falco with his Bair whenever i try to sweetspot the edge.

Also I'm not sure if I saw or if i included but you should really include how the fact tornado can hit you in a offstage angle ( just as a reminder ;D)
Our back air lasts a very long time, though the sart-up lag makes it possible to mistime it sometimes. But yeah thats one possible way Lucario could gimp him.

How exactly does Luigi's tornado 'hit you in a offstage angle'?
 

hippiedude92

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Our back air lasts a very long time, though the sart-up lag makes it possible to mistime it sometimes. But yeah thats one possible way Lucario could gimp him.

How exactly does Luigi's tornado 'hit you in a offstage angle'?
It depends. If Luigi hits the outter part of the tornado (provided I show you the video as soon as I find it) then you'll be hit offstage angle sorta. Although it's not a offstage, it still gives some decent amount of angle for where Luigi could just edgehug you and such. (1:45)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZVy-sHjK2s

It doesn't work extremely effective since Lucario's a floaty. Also if your caught in the middle of the rising tornado, you'll be taking multiple hits and be sent on a awkward angle. If I ever find a dam video with someone trying to gimp Luigi and doing his rising tornado I'll post right away >.<

Here's the thread if your curious what I'm talking about

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=187479

I'd just like to give it as a heads up unless you figure something out.
 

betterthanbonds9

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Yea, also don't bother spotdodging Luigi's Nair because it has a long lasting hitbox and just sets hiim for the kill or the utilt combo which you don't wanna be in. Also with my other post about saying Luigi's ***** in the air hands down thing, I meant that he ***** in terms of power but not range >.> but meh.
Actually, if anything dont AD the nair because the longer it's out the weaker the knockback=more combo-ness to uair. Yeah, luigi has a more powerful airgame, but we have by far the longer range one.

Actually this reminds me of something, dont go for FP chains on luigi, he'll nair you right away and you'll feel stupid.

--If nair trades hits with fair, that's cool, iirc if you fair luigi's head during the nair you can get a dair in there or another fair, depends on the DI

btw, i started lucario's bair as i typed this post, and even as I'm editting it it's still going on
 

Trapt497

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woo hoo new rotation.

G&W...I would write a review on the matchup but schools starting up and I have no time.

Basically, in a nutshell, it is a very tough matchup for Lucario. Very tough. I mean, G&W is good against a lot of characters, but still. He can destroy Lucario if he is played right.

Two words. Bucket. Turtle. Aura sphere is one of Lucario's most important moves, and, to put it simply, against G&W's bucket its three strikes and you're out. I don't have to explain the turtle.

He has great aerials that may rival even ours, up aerial screws with our d-air, and his ground game is decent, if not great.

My rough estimate for now is 70-30. G&W. Sorry if you think thats too harsh, but thats just what I think the ratio should be. Of course, this is pre-disscusion, so it may change. But...the fact is G&W is very good. And, in my opinon, G&W is one of the worst matchups for Lucario. Again, my opinon may change after discussion since I have never disscussed this particular matchup before.

Critisism? Anyone disagree with me? Let me know...I'm open for any disagreements.
 
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Just a few quick points after the big tournament in CO(which I got 7th at out of about 45 people. I still think my placement sucked, but I'm pretty harsh on myself, heh.) Anyways, on Luigi:

I think my opinion has changed on it being even. I think the match-up should be slightly in his favor. But only slightly. Our air game is pretty much the best part of Lucario's overall game, is it not? Well, Luigi's counters ours so we're at an abnormally large disadvantage, even if our ground game is better than his. Our ground game still isn't the best or the most used, so I think Luigi's got a slight advantage. But very slight indeed. 55:45. 60:40 is pushing it though.

And as a side note to an earlier conversation: if you think that beating CPU's is anything worth bragging about EVER, then you really aren't that good at smash. Go get better. CPU's are usually not the best thing to train against either, because they do not respond like humans do. You can practice techniques and combos and other things like that on them, but that's about it. If you want serious practice, get together with some buddies in your area and practice that way. If your friends aren't that good then help them get better or find other smash buddies by attending tournaments. Just a few tips.

Now...back on to the subject at hand, ja?

I won't say much right now, I'm pretty tired from traveling all day but I will say that G&W really does NOT have as big an advantage on us as they want us to think they do. G&W is very light, easily KO'ed, and has few moves that kill us effectively at uber low percents, especially since their silly dthrow combo doesn't work on us. His bucket however...now there's a SERIOUS problem. That thing can absorb your AS even if he's facing backwards. If he's on a platform and facing backwards and you're on the ground and shoot it towards him it'll still absorb your AS. Garbage. So don't use it unless you are ABSOLUTELY certain it will hit. Like in the lag-time from getting up on a missed tech. And the bair? Peace O' cake. Just don't challenge it and don't shield it. That's all you have to do to beat it, just keep out of its reach and outspace with a better prioritized attack. You've got a million options in that situation. I'll add on to this in a separate post later, so if you want to quote this you can Jeepy, but it's not really all that much. My next post will have much more info. on the match-up. =I

I'd say the match-up is actually only 60:40 G&W, but I would doubt even that. I'd say it's actually closer to even, or we might even have the advantage. I'll have to think on that before I give you a final say on my opinion of the match-up. If G&W still has it, it's really not that big.

Erich out.
 

Zero_Gamer

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My rough estimate for now is 70-30. G&W.
Critisism? Anyone disagree with me? Let me know...I'm open for any disagreements.
This is a common misconception. G&W is not a very tough matchup. These are the common overestimations of G&W's characteristics:
1) Broken Smashes - They are not broken at all. Yes they are powerful, but people seem to forget that they have short range. His Dsmash is the most useful one, but you should know of it's power by now (able to kill easily under 100% on anyone). As long as you space properly, you will live to very high percentages because the best kill move G&W has is his Fair (not in terms of power, in terms of versatility and range). Dsmash is good, but it shouldn't hit someone who's spending the majority of his time in the air.

2) Smashes are not punishable - lololololol, this is so wrong. G&W's smashes have excellent IASA frames, but they do not cover up the cooldown lag. It's quite noticeable and an Aura Sphere or aerial combo will easily punish whiffs. Now that brings us to the next thing.

3) The Bucket - This shouldn't ever be full. The only thing the Bucket should do is force you to use your Aura Sphere smarter. NEVER use it just for the heck of it. As long as you use the Aura Sphere to punish his laggy attacks (Fsmash, Dsmash, Upsmash, Bair, Fair), you won't need to fear the bucket; I sure as heck don't. Funny thing, sometimes the G&W might anticipate an Aura Sphere and pull out the bucket, only to realize that you're too smart to use it like that and use Fsmash or something.

4) Turtle - Believed by many as the best Bair in the game and I might agree. It is a potent approach, does decent damage, and eats shields. However, don't think we can't defeat this. First option - Roll back --> Aura Sphere the fool, there's nothing he can do.
Second option - Shield --> after the first 5 or so hits, there will be one more hit that comes out significantly slower (compared to the rest of the attack) and at that point you can roll into the G&W and punish the landing lag with Aura Sphere, AA --> FP, a grab, maybe even Fsmash.
Third option - confront it. Lucario's Bair has a huge hitbox and will strike G&W right through the turtle. In many situations, I've actually Fair'd through the turtle, my assumption is that, since the foot (hitbox) moves upwards, it will strike G&W's foot or belly at a safe distance from the turtle.

Dthrow is baaaaad - This throw opens up tech chasing and may even lead to a smash, buuuuuuuut, G&W's grab range is horrible, you should almost never be grabbed by him.

I honestly think that Lucario has a 60:40 advantage over G&W because he's so lightweight (even Nair kills him quickly!) and punishable. Lucario's hitboxes and options are just too good.
 

tedward2000

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Woo hoo
G&W, i'll get on that review. It'll be done later tonight or I'll have it in tomorrow.
-t2

Oh, I will say this.
Sliding Upsmash. G&W has the 3rd strongest Upsmash in the game. Its hit box is behind him and (duh) above him. Its a bit on the short side, but it more then makes up for it in strength. Lucario's Dair will be able to stop this, but G&W will still try to pull this off on you.
(%'s not known)
 

Timbers

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Gamer not to sound rude, but just know this wouldn't be the first time you were wrong about character specifics on the off chance someone tried to correct you >_>

Like I'm about to do.

1) Dsmash and fsmash hitboxes will snatch you midair. fsmash is impossible to punish without already being midair and dairing him (or you rolled behind him before the hitbox came out) as the fsmash hitbox lingers nearly the entire time that the torch is extended. It's more or less harder to punish than Lucario's fsmash, and I'd like to argue that Lucario's fsmash is one of the safest fsmashes in the game. The smashes aren't broken, but they're very good. Also his fair will **** you when you're returning to stage. His killmoves aren't strictly forced to the ground.

2) Like I said, his smashes are probably some of the safest in the game.

3) Agreed.

4) Turtle has more priority and range than anything you have except fsmash. It's also faster than like everything you've got. You can roll behind him to punish, but everytime he approaches you, you can't just roll. If he anticipates it, even once, you die at 70% to sweetspotted dsmash and/or caught in a nair. Even rolling behind him, you won't have time to do anything except ftilt, jab, or grab. His bair is considerably less laggy if it doesn't hit a target.

At best, it's 40:60. Lord knows why you'd think this is in favor of Lucario.
 

dj_pwn1423

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This is a common misconception. G&W is not a very tough matchup. These are the common overestimations of G&W's characteristics:
1) Broken Smashes - They are not broken at all. Yes they are powerful, but people seem to forget that they have short range. His Dsmash is the most useful one, but you should know of it's power by now (able to kill easily under 100% on anyone). As long as you space properly, you will live to very high percentages because the best kill move G&W has is his Fair (not in terms of power, in terms of versatility and range). Dsmash is good, but it shouldn't hit someone who's spending the majority of his time in the air.

lol yeah, lets just stay in the air and get ***** by his aerial game instead


2) Smashes are not punishable - lololololol, this is so wrong. G&W's smashes have excellent IASA frames, but they do not cover up the cooldown lag. It's quite noticeable and an Aura Sphere or aerial combo will easily punish whiffs. Now that brings us to the next thing.

I don't see how G&W is easier to punish than other characters. Also, I doubt that you can manage to get a two string combo on G&W without getting punished.

3) The Bucket - This shouldn't ever be full. The only thing the Bucket should do is force you to use your Aura Sphere smarter. NEVER use it just for the heck of it. As long as you use the Aura Sphere to punish his laggy attacks (Fsmash, Dsmash, Upsmash, Bair, Fair), you won't need to fear the bucket; I sure as heck don't. Funny thing, sometimes the G&W might anticipate an Aura Sphere and pull out the bucket, only to realize that you're too smart to use it like that and use Fsmash or something.

So the fact that we cant use BAS doesn't hinder us at all? G&W is not forced to approach lucario like other characters because of the bucket.

4) Turtle - Believed by many as the best Bair in the game and I might agree. It is a potent approach, does decent damage, and eats shields. However, don't think we can't defeat this. First option - Roll back --> Aura Sphere the fool, there's nothing he can do.

You can't punish G&W like that. The ending animation is not as big as you think. If you roll back G&W has enough time to put up his shield before AS makes contact.

Second option - Shield --> after the first 5 or so hits, there will be one more hit that comes out significantly slower (compared to the rest of the attack) and at that point you can roll into the G&W and punish the landing lag with Aura Sphere, AA --> FP, a grab, maybe even Fsmash.
Third option - confront it. Lucario's Bair has a huge hitbox and will strike G&W right through the turtle. In many situations, I've actually Fair'd through the turtle, my assumption is that, since the foot (hitbox) moves upwards, it will strike G&W's foot or belly at a safe distance from the turtle.

I just tested this, luc's Bair is actually out ranged by G&W's by a tiny bit. Fair doesn't work very well either, if the G&W has descent spacing you probably wont be able to get under him like that very often.

Dthrow is baaaaad - This throw opens up tech chasing and may even lead to a smash, buuuuuuuut, G&W's grab range is horrible, you should almost never be grabbed by him.

I honestly think that Lucario has a 60:40 advantage over G&W because he's so lightweight (even Nair kills him quickly!) and punishable. Lucario's hitboxes and options are just too good.

He can kill luc very quickly as well.

What makes G&W more punishable than other characters again?
Responses in bold.

The Matchup is at least 60:40 in G&W's favor imo
 

hippiedude92

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I'm not a Lucario player but I know a few quick tidbits on GaW's weakpoints. Obviously hes a lightweight dies at like 80%s or early 90%s. I'm not sure that this was mentioned but note that even he does bucket one of your Aura Spheres, it has alot of starting and ending lag giving you a oppunnity to Fsmash right in the nuts (does he even have nuts ? ) I'd take advantage of that.
 

Zero_Gamer

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Gamer not to sound rude, but just know this wouldn't be the first time you were wrong about character specifics on the off chance someone tried to correct you >_>

Like I'm about to do.

1) Dsmash and fsmash hitboxes will snatch you midair. fsmash is impossible to punish without already being midair and dairing him (or you rolled behind him before the hitbox came out) as the fsmash hitbox lingers nearly the entire time that the torch is extended. It's more or less harder to punish than Lucario's fsmash, and I'd like to argue that Lucario's fsmash is one of the safest fsmashes in the game. The smashes aren't broken, but they're very good. Also his fair will **** you when you're returning to stage. His killmoves aren't strictly forced to the ground.

2) Like I said, his smashes are probably some of the safest in the game.

3) Agreed.

4) Turtle has more priority and range than anything you have except fsmash. It's also faster than like everything you've got. You can roll behind him to punish, but everytime he approaches you, you can't just roll. If he anticipates it, even once, you die at 70% to sweetspotted dsmash and/or caught in a nair. Even rolling behind him, you won't have time to do anything except ftilt, jab, or grab. His bair is considerably less laggy if it doesn't hit a target.

At best, it's 40:60. Lord knows why you'd think this is in favor of Lucario.
1) I never said his kill moves were specific to the ground. I stated that his Fair is a great kill move, but it isn't really that uber either. I said his really powerful smashes aren't that potent against a player who knows the character. Lucario isn't usually "plucked" right out of the air by an Fsmash, let alone a Dsmash. G&W has a good number of kill moves, but they should all be easily avoided through spacing and logic.

2) His smashes aren't very punishable out of shield, but a whiff is punished by Aura Sphere.

4) You're making it sound like a bad thing. You are basically saying the same thing I said about how to punish the Bair. You agree that Lucario can roll past G&W and punish him with Ftilt, AA --> FP, or grab. The part of your argument I don't quite understand is how I'm able to be punished by a Dsmash. I don't believe G&W can Dsmash very quickly after performing Bair.

Edit: Maybe 60:40 was a bit much for Lucario, but I still think 40:60 for G&W is a bit much too. He's a good character, but he's overestimated.
 

Conclusively

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Bah.. Game & Watch. I hate that guy. He has pretty good range in the air and the ground which some rival Lucario. He can kill extremely early, but dies early as well. He also destroys you if you try to camp with Lucario with the bucket, and if you miss a Force Palm grab, he can bucket the flame too. If he gets three, you're dead at 40% even with DI. The best thing to do with your projectiles is use them at closer range, or use them while he's off the stage, because the bucket has some ending lag to put it away. You can take advantage of that to edgeguard him with a B-Air or something.

As for regularly attacking, Game & Watch has a bunch of moves that stop Baby Aura spheres, and a few moves that stop weak aura spheres. He can cancel BAS with a simple dash attack, f-tilt, d-tilt, aerials, as well as the dreaded bucket. I would recommend to not even try Aura Sphere against him on the stage, unless you're absolutely certain it will hit. When he rushes, be prepared for a grab set up into something else, RAR B-Air, F-air, or the basic dash attack. His moves have disjointed hitboxes, so watch out for that. Be aware of his down throw on edges, it can be used to spike if you're almost off a platform or the stage itself. Shield most of his attacks as he approaches, spotdodge B-Air and punish the little ending lag with a forward tilt or up tilt. Trying Jab-Jab-FP is nearly useless once you both are past 10%, because Game & Watch is extremely light and can probably bucket your FP Flame. His Dash Attack has pretty bad lag, so you might be able to get off a Forward Smash if he misses badly. Shield grabs work against dash attack as well.

In the air, watch out for ALL of his aerials. They are all extremely good. Up-Air is pretty good for mindgames, but not that great for killing. If you see him starting to do Up-Air, Down-Air immediately. If you aren't close enough for Down-Air to hit, airdodge but DO NOT JUMP. Sometimes if you jump right as the puff of air hits you, you can get star KOed at extremely low percents. For his F-Air and B-Air, try to space yourself as much as possible. Try B-Airs and N-airs instead of the common F-air, and follow up with a D-Air or try to juggle with Up-Air. Remember Game & Watch is extremely light, so you won't be able to juggle him as well. His Down-Air can spike around where he pulls out his key. Some Game & Watches I've played spam this move like hell. Airdodge, then fastfall into a D-Air. If Game & Watch fastfalls his down-air, it actually slow falls him, so watch out for that. Don't always expect a plummenting G&W.

His smashes have rediculous KO potential. They all kill extremely early. Don't bother Double Teaming unless he does an Up-Smash and you're sure your DT will hit. His smashes have way less range than yours, so stutterstep a F-Smash to punish his bad lag after his F-Smash and U-Smash. D-Smash comes out pretty quickly, so just attempt to shield grab it.

Game & Watch is pretty easy to kill when decent aura starts to kick in, and pretty easy to gimp. On stage, just stutter step a F-Smash, or try a close range aura sphere. Down-Air is a pretty good G&W killer too. Offstage, try chasing him off with f-airs, b-airs, and down-airs. If you knock him far enough off the stage and he's used both his jumps, he's pretty much screwed. Parachute is pretty useless horizontally, so just edgeguard decently and you can gimp him pretty well. However, when you edgeguard, G&W might get violent and try to take you down with a D-Air spike. Don't go directly beneath G&W no matter what. He might be able to pull off a spike, slowfall his D-air, and get back up with Parachute.

Game&Watch is one of the harder matchups IMO, and good players give me a hard time. I think this matchup would be in Game&Watch's advantages, because you need extremely good spacing, shielding, and dodging to beat this guy. He can punish spotdodges as well as poke through shields with his B-Air. Once your Aura starts to become helpful, that's around the percent where he can kill you with a sweetspotted F-Air, or any of his smashes. Play offensively before 100%, and defensively after.

IMO, it would be around a 40 : 60, Game & Watch's advantage.

Feel free to add to this, or point out anything wrong with it.
 

Browny

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I think my opinion has changed on it being even. I think the match-up should be slightly in his favor. But only slightly. Our air game is pretty much the best part of Lucario's overall game, is it not? Well, Luigi's counters ours so we're at an abnormally large disadvantage, even if our ground game is better than his. Our ground game still isn't the best or the most used, so I think Luigi's got a slight advantage. But very slight indeed. 55:45. 60:40 is pushing it though.
heres the difference.

someone with an even stronger aerial game, say G&W. he can approach from the air, and like wario, remain completely unpunishable. he doesnt have to commit to any approach, if you shield the turtle, he can just DI backwards and repeat, theres little you can do to top it

luigi has to completely commit to an aerial approach. hes so slow its extremely easy to see it coming, and you can VERY easily rolldodge away and give him an AS before he even touches the ground. He has 0 shield pressure, once he jumps towards you and you shield he either has to retreat or get shield grabbed out of his nair/fair.

G&W is bad

no worse than 35:65 imo. NEVER use bas, theyre pointless. whenever G&W is at fsmash range, chuck him an AS. if he buckets it, he eats a free fsmash. master the use of not full-charging an AS, so when you pull it out and he buckets in anticipation, he gets an fsmash instead.
 

Trela

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Well, I dunno much about G&W, cause I never really play them. I can try to help.

FUNDAMENTAL MOVES:

Bair & Fair: G&W's best arials, and with good reason. He uses these to start combos and just to rack up quick damage. Can bring your Damage Percent up fast, and can stop our SH>Fair approaches. We can stop these arials with some DT's or just by escaping with Bair.

Frying Pan: His only projectile. Spaces and edgeguards with this. Can stop our baby AS's, and mess up our Extremespeed a lot. Throw a fully charged AS in his face, or when he's spamming it, try DTing into it.

Fsmash & Dsmash: Really powerfull attacks. Mainy uses Fsmash for KO'ing and Dsmash with his throws. Fsmash comes out very quick, and Dsmash can send you either up or sideways. Quickly dodge the Fsmashes if you aren't stunned or something, and tryDI'ing your way out of his Dthrow>Dsmash combo.

Bucket: His strongest move. Used to eat our AS's, no matter what size it is. KO's you at low percentages easily, and can play mindgames with it. Try shooting your AS's at him when he's stunned, or try tricking him into using it.

Feel free to correct me ^_^
 

Timbers

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1) I never said his kill moves were specific to the ground. I stated that his Fair is a great kill move, but it isn't really that uber either. I said his really powerful smashes aren't that potent against a player who knows the character. Lucario isn't usually "plucked" right out of the air by an Fsmash, let alone a Dsmash. G&W has a good number of kill moves, but they should all be easily avoided through spacing and logic.

2) His smashes aren't very punishable out of shield, but a whiff is punished by Aura Sphere.

4) You're making it sound like a bad thing. You are basically saying the same thing I said about how to punish the Bair. You agree that Lucario can roll past G&W and punish him with Ftilt, AA --> FP, or grab. The part of your argument I don't quite understand is how I'm able to be punished by a Dsmash. I don't believe G&W can Dsmash very quickly after performing Bair.

Edit: Maybe 60:40 was a bit much for Lucario, but I still think 40:60 for G&W is a bit much too. He's a good character, but he's overestimated.
1) You said it's easy to avoid his killmoves. Fair ***** Lucario on recovery. Any sh attempt you make (read: sh fair) can be punished with fsmash. Unless you stay grounded the entire time, which may or may not be the best option. Honestly you don't die to his dsmash very often without making some kind of dumb mistake. Fsmash and fair still hurt like a ***** though.

2) His smashes clank with full auraspheres. I don't know at what percent it outprioritizes his smashes, if ever.

3) No. I said you were wrong about spacing his bair with your own bair and fair. Because you can't. Rolling behind GaW is only good if you predict the bair. You can't roll behind him between the 5th and 6th hit and punish him. Rolling behind him when expecting a bair is dangerous because he can bait the roll and dsmash you.

Posts like these irritate me, no offense. You've clearly never taken the time to even test your analysis, and even moreso you've never tried this stuff in a real match. Basically you're speaking only in theory, and you're not even testing that theory.

You're more than welcome to have your own opinion on the match, but how about you go implement these suggestions when playing the match before arguing your opinion.


GaW vs. Lucario
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=188068
 

Zero_Gamer

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I never said our Fair would beat out G&W's Bair, I've just stated something that has occurred for me several times. Are you absolutely sure our Bair won't hit through G&W's? I've tested it and it hits his hand. I've also tested out and implemented many times the idea of rolling into G&W when the shield takes the Bair. This is not a 100% occurence, but many of the players who try to space the Bair well will DI back a little to avoid any punishment, in this case, when you roll into him, you will end up close enough to hit him with jabs or grabs. If he tries to Dsmash he will get hit by jabs, if he shields he will be grabbed, if he spotdodges he will get hit by the second jab. If he happens to DI into you, then you can just shield the shield eater part and then spot dodge the final hitbox, in which case you can grab him.
It works.
 

OneWingedAngelo1

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3) No. I said you were wrong about spacing his bair with your own bair and fair. Because you can't. Rolling behind GaW is only good if you predict the bair. You can't roll behind him between the 5th and 6th hit and punish him. Rolling behind him when expecting a bair is dangerous because he can bait the roll and dsmash you.

Posts like these irritate me, no offense. You've clearly never taken the time to even test your analysis, and even moreso you've never tried this stuff in a real match. Basically you're speaking only in theory, and you're not even testing that theory.
Stop talking big

If you ever learned how to read you would know that what this guy is saying is that you ONLY roll behind him when he uses the Back Air... not when you THINK there is going to be a Back Air. If you do it this way then you will not be hit by Down Smash because he is in the middle of the Back Air and is completely open to your attack, if you spaced it right.

Post like these irritate me, no offense. You clearly only know how to speak in Poop instead of taking the time to learn how to read what other people are saying.
 

dj_pwn1423

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Stop talking big

If you ever learned how to read you would know that what this guy is saying is that you ONLY roll behind him when he uses the Back Air... not when you THINK there is going to be a Back Air. If you do it this way then you will not be hit by Down Smash because he is in the middle of the Back Air and is completely open to your attack, if you spaced it right.

Post like these irritate me, no offense. You clearly only know how to speak in Poop instead of taking the time to learn how to read what other people are saying.
reading comprehension plox yadda yadda.

Why did you quote him for your sig? rofl

on topic:
For stages, I guess mansion is good because of the high ceiling, but I dont know how well G&W does there.
Avoid battlefield(reset if you can), aswell as maybe halberd? can G&W charge his bucket with the laser? if so that would be trippy :3
 

M@v

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Not too much I can contribute on lucarios part here, I prefer playing fox in this matchup(even though Lucario probably IS better off xD).

ANYWAY.

The obvious. Dont spam sphere, because youll be getting facefulls of buckets. Someone who plays G&W told me bucket is instant kill on lucario. I doubt this claim, but Id thought i would bring it up. Sphere is still good, just dont be a maniac with it. Fsmash's range is your friend.

Use your Dair a lot. its out prioritizes G&Ws Fishbowl(nair), his second best priority move!! You still cant beat turtle, but hey at least you can give him a piece of his own over priority medicine! xD. G&W is crazy at killing. For G&Ws dthrow to dsmash combo, DI away from him and try to get up as fast as possible. You should be rolling away with invicible frames when he hits you, so nothing happens.


I think this one is pretty even, although my Lucario vs G&W experience is limited to only one or two good players.
 

Timbers

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I never said our Fair would beat out G&W's Bair, I've just stated something that has occurred for me several times. Are you absolutely sure our Bair won't hit through G&W's? I've tested it and it hits his hand. I've also tested out and implemented many times the idea of rolling into G&W when the shield takes the Bair. This is not a 100% occurence, but many of the players who try to space the Bair well will DI back a little to avoid any punishment, in this case, when you roll into him, you will end up close enough to hit him with jabs or grabs. If he tries to Dsmash he will get hit by jabs, if he shields he will be grabbed, if he spotdodges he will get hit by the second jab. If he happens to DI into
you, then you can just shield the shield eater part and then spot dodge the final hitbox, in which case you can grab him.
It works.
Positive that the bair and fair won't work. Maybe you faired him when the bair was in startup lag or something.

You mentioned rolling inbetween the second to last, and the last hit. If you do mean that, then GaW won't be unpunished. By the time your roll is over with, he'll be able to move freely.

Can you at least give me a reason why you initially believed this to be in Luc's favor? Or why you think it's even? Like, you havent really given a reason to state why Lucario has any type of advantage here. The only one I can think of is fsmash.

Stop talking big

If you ever learned how to read you would know that what this guy is saying is that you ONLY roll behind him when he uses the Back Air... not when you THINK there is going to be a Back Air. If you do it this way then you will not be hit by Down Smash because he is in the middle of the Back Air and is completely open to your attack, if you spaced it right.

Post like these irritate me, no offense. You clearly only know how to speak in Poop instead of taking the time to learn how to read what other people are saying.
Go die ***got

Pgh-M@v-Pgh said:
Not too much I can contribute on lucarios part here, I prefer playing fox in this matchup(even though Lucario probably IS better off xD).

ANYWAY.

The obvious. Dont spam sphere, because youll be getting facefulls of buckets. Someone who plays G&W told me bucket is instant kill on lucario. I doubt this claim, but Id thought i would bring it up. Sphere is still good, just dont be a maniac with it. Fsmash's range is your friend.

Use your Dair a lot. its out prioritizes G&Ws Fishbowl(nair), his second best priority move!! You still cant beat turtle, but hey at least you can give him a piece of his own over priority medicine! xD. G&W is crazy at killing. For G&Ws dthrow to dsmash combo, DI away from him and try to get up as fast as possible. You should be rolling away with invicible frames when he hits you, so nothing happens.


I think this one is pretty even, although my Lucario vs G&W experience is limited to only one or two good players.
Basically.

Just keep in mind that his uair and uB molests Lucario's floaty nature, so the dair isn't as beautiful as in other matches.

I personally haven't found a way around this, but rolling away from his dthrow everytime gets you usmashed by his tech chase. It hurts a lot.

I've been experimenting with simply standing up after being thrown. It avoids the dsmash if they do it instantly, but if they anticipate they can just do a usmash or something while standing. :\ There's no safe way out of it really.
 

Browny

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G&W dthrow dsmash is no combo. its completely escape every time. is about as much as a combo as rolling behind snake after he does a dthrow right into his pivoted fsmash. roll forwards and you will never get hit, even if he follows with a usmash
 

Timbers

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roll forwards and you will never get hit, even if he follows with a usmash
No if GaW anticipates your roll and chases immediately after the throw, it's easy usmash.

He has to condition you to roll or not to roll, though. He has to fully commit to either the dsmash or the usmash, he can't wait to see what you do.
 

Zero_Gamer

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My apologies Timbers, I want to claim sleepy johns. 60:40 Lucario was too extreme, I'll say 45:55 or 60:40 in G&W's favor because of Bair and his good ability to juggle, etc. It's not a nightmare matchup like many people think though, just playing evasively against those smashes and grabs will keep Lucario from getting any low % kills.
 
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Alrighty, let's try this. Here we go:

MR. GAME & WATCH

G&W is really not as hard a match-up as everyone thinks he is, first off. People are just afraid of him because he's high on the tier list. Never fear Lucario players!

Fundamental Moves: G&W has a lot of options on almost everybody in the game. For one he can just sit there and 'pan' bacon at you. He can simply RAR his bair ALL FREAKIN' DAY. He can use his ridiculously powerful fair to attack you and then use his floatiness to move away before you can counter. He will use wall of pain tactics a lot with his aerials, and it will work. The turtle is probably the most outrageous move in the game, because it has multiple hitboxes, a decent amount of range(nothing too special though), and the final hitbox stays out until the turtle is gone. That's a little rough, eh? Their bucket is extremely deadly, so do not, I repeat DO NOT, use aura sphere unless you are very certain it will hit. Same with FP's flame. If he gets that bucket filled up with even 1 FP flame, it's a OHKO at any percentage for you. If he gets a bunch of BAS you can survive at extremely low percents, but you won't be in that percentile long enough to live through it anyways.

Strategy's/Lucario's moves: There's gonna be a lot in here, so read closely!

Lucario, surprisingly to many, has quite a few options against G&W. Not on the whole, but in specific situations. G&W's turtle can be a problem for a lot of people. I'm gonna tell you right now that your problem with it is most likely you try and shield it and then either grab or attack. That's not gonna work, sorry. Your problem is easily fixable though! It eats your shield like crazy and it has too many hitboxes, plus you have horrible grab range so you won't shield grab him anyways. You need your shield for things like the key and especially the fair. All you need to do to beat the turtle is stay just barely out of its range. It infuriates the G&W's so much, because you're right on the tip of their range but they just can't quite seem to reach you with their favorite move. If you play them like this, they'll use their bair over and over and over again. You can do many things to them when they use the turtle. You can: 1.) Jump over the turtle and dair their face, or 2.) you can space an fsmash and hit them with it, as it does have more priority than the turtle does(Lawlawlawlawlawlawl), or 3.) you can shoot a fully charged AS at them, which also eats through their bair at any percentage(hahahahaha). It has to be fully charged though, it can't be a NFAS(Nearly Full Aura Sphere). That is the most reliable way to get through it because if you're not careful with your spacing and your timing, the turtle will jump over your fsmash. You could also 4.) bait them to get closer to you and do a DT but that's kinda risky, or 5.) bait them and roll behind them as they do the turtle so that you are behind them while they are still in the air and then punish as you see fit. The turtle is a piece of cake to get around if you've ever experimented with it. Just don't fear it. That's all. Don't challenge it and don't shield it.

Now...the other thing that people fear G&W for. The dreaded dthrow to dsmash combo. Too bad it doesn't work on Lucario. EVER. However, Timbers was right when he said they can tech chase an up smash. That very rarely happens though. Usually they just go straight to the dsmash because it's so much faster. If you roll away immediately then they can't hit you with it. If they tech chase you, they better have the timing of a machine if they want to hit you with that up smash, because you can put your shield up and block it if they're not fast enough, which they probably won't be. Also and this is the best thing to do in this situation(other than just don't get grabbed), try to tech the dthrow. Yes it's possible. Please go practice it, because it's very easy to do and amazingly useful. Plus right now most people don't really know that you can tech it, so it'll be a bit of a surprise. If you can get the timing down on that tech, this whole paragraph was pretty much pointless. G&W will suddenly be a WHOLE LOT easier to fight, and they'll hate you for it. But who cares? It makes their dthrow pretty much useless.

As was mentioned earlier, the bucket kills in one hit. So be very smart about using AS. NEVER shoot BAS. That's just a very stupid idea in this match-up and if you think that you can shoot one and have him absorb it, then punish him in his lag, you are so very wrong. That won't ever happen. Always have a fully charged AS ready, so that when you see an opening, you can just fire away. NFAS's aren't quite as useful in this match-up as other matches, simply because of the bucket and they don't eat through the bair either. If G&W is off the ledge, still be very cautious about it, because they'll pull their bucket out their too. Their recovery is very good, so they really don't have to worry about it. The best time to use it is when they are lying on the ground from not teching(for example, from a Force Palm or fthrow) and as they roll up or get up launch it at them. Again be wary of spacing, because if you're too far away they'll just get up and use the bucket. As I mentioned somewhere earlier, you can also use it to eat through their turtle.

And now the uair. G&W's uair is ********. It not only prevents you from landing, but it also replenishes his moves if he has stale moves. That really "BLOWS."(Bad pun alert!) If he keeps you in the air with that move, don't worry about it, just kinda float around and go with the flow. As long as you're that far above him, he can't hit you. Just stay calm because you will probably want to panic, as he is controlling your movement. You're gonna have to come down sometime and when you do be ready for his attack and use your awesome dair or something else. Please don't air dodge because he will punish you for it.

Now, G&W's LOOOOVE their dair. The key is too cool. I did not say too good. It kinda sucks, actually. They just like it because it makes them feel like either Sora or Link. They have an obsession with flying through the air towards the ground at high speeds, or they can just cancel it and use the key but descend at normal speed. That's about the only mindgame it can be good for. If they auto cancel it then you probably won't be able to shield grab them, but you don't wanna be doing that anyways. All you have to do with the key is space yourself away from his general attack. If they auto cancel it, then you can try running in(as long as you're not too far away) with a Force Palm. The fsmash is probably too laggy to hit unless you space really, really well, so maybe ftilt. If you are really good with spacing then try an up tilt as they land. You have so many options, it's laughable. Again, just don't fear it. Lucario's usmash eats through it as well, so remember that. Again, that requires good spacing. If you do try and shield the key because you simply have no other choice or because you really want to, then he'll probably follow it up with a dsmash. Their second favorite combo, so watch out for that. If you shield it then they'll try to grab you out of it and do another dsmash. Never saw that coming.

I think that covers all the moves I wanted to with G&W. Just remember those and you'll do perfectly fine. Now for some more general stuff:

Lucario has, overall, less moves that out range G&W than he does that out range us. Spacing is a very important factor in this match-up for us. Precise spacing will lead to an almost, if I dare say, easy victory. The fsmash is your dear friend in this match-up, because it has a lot of priority and range and will eat through the turtle. The AS is not so recommended, but if you can use it wisely, it's very, very painful to G&W. He has the potential to kill us very early, so steer clear of his fsmash, which has a lot of range, and away from the dsmash. Use the range you have intelligently to keep a good distance away, but still have the upper hand. If you get hit with the turtle, then tap DI rapidly upwards, and you will move outside of the hitboxes. One thing they like to do is use the Match when we are around the ledge. If you are above him, don't try to airdodge through his attack, because you'll die. Don't try rolling up from the ledge past his attack, because you'll die. But don't hang too long because then he'll just use the stupid dtilt. Don't get frying-pan spiked, because that just sucks and is embarrassing. You also have the potential to kill him quickly, because he is very light weight, so abuse it.

Recommended Stages: Now, the part we all know I suck at!

Pictochat: This stage is HUGE. It is massive horizontally, so you'll live uber long here, and it has a relatively high ceiling. And you have the ability to abuse the stage hazards as much as he does. Also, no tilts in the stage.

Luigi's Mansion: This stage is good for Lucario in general. If you have good DI and you don't destroy the house, this can be tech city and help you survive the dsmash, usmash, fair, all his deadly moves.

Overall match-up: I think that this match-up is not as one sided as everyone believes it to be. G&W is powerful, yes, but he is also very light. Many of his evil combos do not work on us. We have more priority than him with the moves that we need the most against him. He is fast. He has a lot of killing moves. We have more priority than the turtle. His dthrow is next to useless if you know what you're doing(coughcoughtechcoughcough).

Edit: With recent discoveries made and edits throughout my post of giganticness, I've decided my opinion on the match-up is somewhere from 45:55 Lucario to 60:40 G&W. That's right, I went ahead and said it: Lucario just might have an advantage on G&W. But that is a very big might. This match-up is very dependent on your spacing, so if someone is not good with spacing they are going to have a very difficult time with this match-up. I really think that 60:40 G&W is pushing it now though.

It's really not that bad or as scary as G&W wants us to think. And I really doubt that G&W knows even half the stuff I do(and now hopefully everyone else!) on the match-up. I bet they think their turtle is still invincible and their dthrow is amazing. *Looks smug* Seriously, half of what G&W's can do to most people has just been taken away; he's really at a loss. Anyways, you decide Jeepy.

Wow...that was a very long post. I hope everyone reads it all: I know a lot about this match-up.

Erich out.
 

OneWingedAngelo1

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I think you should stop posting here OneWingedAngelo1 because your posts aren't helpful at all they're just negative and they get everybody pissed off.

This is what the Lucario boards are not known for.

Why, just because I disagree with Timbers? My bad I didn't know everything that guys says is true. But by all means think that if you want. It just seems pathetic when someone tries to post something helpful and Timbers comes and shoots them down, with some arseholish remark on how everything they just tried to do is unmeritable. But go on don't let me stop you. Everyone knows that to find the truth of matters we should all agree with one person and never question them at all... >_>

And for the record that Thread by Pika Pika was neither me or Pika Pika. Any posts made by someone in Rochester about him as well are not me unless they are from this user name.

Go die ***got
My bad... do you not like it when people say these things to you..?
 

betterthanbonds9

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erich gracias for the edit, awesome read

And onto the matchup. This matchup doesn't feel to me to be as bad as the marth matchup personally (but i think in retrospect the marth matchup should be bumped to 65, but w/e). Using BAS for whatever purpose is a bad idea. Iirc 3 BAS at 50% is insta death (even if lucario is at 0%) and as long as one of the 3 when lucario is at 0% is more than a BAS it's insta dead. His turtle is ****tastically lame, it penetrates every attack besides fsmash (right?) and lasts far too long. Dair vs uair is in G's favor. His smashes have lingering hitboxes, which are a ***** to deal with. Sometimes they'll try to bait an AS by using the frying pan.

I dont have much experience with this matchup, but the experience i have had is not pleasant.

and is it possible/desirable to tech the dthrow?

prediction: 60 G
 

Timbers

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My apologies Timbers, I want to claim sleepy johns. 60:40 Lucario was too extreme, I'll say 45:55 or 60:40 in G&W's favor because of Bair and his good ability to juggle, etc. It's not a nightmare matchup like many people think though, just playing evasively against those smashes and grabs will keep Lucario from getting any low % kills.
Of course it's not a nightmare matchup. I think Marth is 40:60, just like GaW. Marth is by no means a nightmare, but it is an uphill battle.

Lucario Chart
http://i153.photobucket.com/albums/s220/mootmootmoot/LucarioMatchupChart-1copy-10.png

erich, can you please edit your post so that there is a space in between the paragraphs like

this, sorry, but that wall of white hurt my eyes >_<.

And onto the matchup. This matchup doesn't feel to me to be as bad as the marth matchup personally (but i think in retrospect the marth matchup should be bumped to 65, but w/e). Using BAS for whatever purpose is a bad idea. Iirc 3 BAS at 50% is insta death (even if lucario is at 0%) and as long as one of the 3 when lucario is at 0% is more than a BAS it's insta dead. His turtle is ****tastically lame, it penetrates every attack besides fsmash (right?) and lasts far too long. Dair vs uair is in G's favor. His smashes have lingering hitboxes, which are a ***** to deal with. Sometimes they'll try to bait an AS by using the frying pan.

I dont have much experience with this matchup, but the experience i have had is not pleasant.

and is it possible/desirable to tech the dthrow?

prediction: 60 G
I have never seen or heard of the dthrow being tech'd. If someone can test this I'd love you forever.

Everything else you said is pretty much true =P

My bad... do you not like it when people say these things to you..?
You're either logging onto other people's accounts, or you're having your friends make spammy posts in here to degrade me.

I have no respect for you.

You're a homo.

Go away.
 
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Alright, I edited the post. Is it easier on the eyes now? Hopefully, hehe.

And I posted that somewhere in the GINORMOUS post I just made. YES, you can tech the dthrow. It is indeed possible. I don't have the timing down yet, mostly 'cause I'm too lazy to go practice it right now, but yea you can tech it. I've done it before. It's just like teching Falco/Fox's dthrow in Melee. In fact, I'll go test it again right now.

EDIT: Just kidding. The timing's pathetically easy. Wow. Go do some practice with a sibling or something, and you'll see. It's so easy. You just press L or R right as you get thrown down into the ground.

You know...that wall of white still hurts my own eyes. I'm gonna change the color of some of the paragraphs.
 

tedward2000

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Okky Dokey
Review times

Mr.2D Stealing mai bucket, back for another run. He surprised us all when He was in another run in Brawl. Surprised us again with improvements. Surprise me one more time and I'll!!...
(Surprise)

Mr. Game and Watch is just a surprise in a half. Deemed bad in the beginning, He has made quite a breakthrough in today's running for top tier. He's more of a paper tank then a glass one. The question is, what game does he come from and why does that make him important?

Besides that, G&W is a terror. Mind bending priority and a plethora of attacks to combat almost everyone in the cast. No one is safe, lock the kids in the basement, grab your sword and pray you dont see a 9.

The moves that are most noteworthy is his B-air and Dthrow.
Dthrow is a get out of jail free card for G&W. It allows him to pull anything he wants on you, anything. So its a instant-tech. If the G&W is smart he'll pull out a smash, if he's risky he'll SideB and pray for a 9.
Now, the infamous turtle. The bane of everyone, and the third arm of G&W. It shieldstabs, it racks damage, its great for approaching. How many other moves do you know does that? Not many. This move you not stand and take it like a man, you run like a girl.

In the Lucario match-up, Da bucket is the anti-cario. The Down-B (bucket) will absorb aura from any angle, and it auto locks. 3 Fp's or AS's and G&W can through the deathly water. Don't let him fill up the bucket, and if you let him fill it, DON'T GET HIT. Any AS shot from a distance is going to do nothing.

Game and Watches recovery was improved too. It goes straight up, and can rack damage, and then G&W will float down back to safety. Don't try to gimp, it won't work.

This match up is one of the toughest for Lucario. There is a highly visible advantage. About 60:40.
-t2
 

Timbers

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Teching isn't difficult, especially as much startup as GaW's throw has. I just..never tried it ._.

That does help.

Also Erich, Yoshi's Island gets you molested by GaW. Slanted ledges makes his edgeguard game too fokking good.

He has infinites on most of Pictochat's walls too. Just something to be aware of when playing there.

I can't really think of any stages to take GaW to, though. I'd avoid Battlefield and Lylat like my life depended on it.
 
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Right, I'll remove that stage from the list. Danke Schon.

Yea, he can abuse the walls. most characters can though. The main reason is that it's a very big stage. That alone is a good enough reason to go there. That and the walls aren't there for long, and you can probably run away from him while the walls are there. Unless you just want to stick to the basic good Lucario stages like Frigate, FD, etc. Also, you can avoid his edge-guarding on Yoshi's Island by wall-clinging(but only to an extent). Not that it changes it, but something to remember.

Yea...Lylat would be a very bad stage for Lucario to fight G&W on. No doubt. Battlefield's not as bad, but it's still up there.

I made lots of updates to that post, so if you're gonna quote anything Jeepy, make sure you get the better version of it. Also, it might just be easier for you to multi-quote people, rather than just copying everything down word for word. Unless...you are doing that and just erasing the quote tags. Nevermind. Dipstick that I am...*grumble grumble*
 

Zero_Gamer

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Location
Reidsville, NC (Not anywhere)
G&W's Dair trades hits with Lucario's Upair. G&W's approach with an RAR'd Bair can be stopped with an Aura Sphere or Fsmash so he will probably take some damage before he starts being more cautious and starts moving significantly slower without the terrific use of Bair. Seriously, Lucario is so good at messing up characters' flow and tempo and that's why I think he has an advantage against chars like Meta Knight and G&W because they are more reliant on consecutive strings instead of incredibly powerful attacks.
I've recently had some practice matches and I don't think G&W is 60:40. I'm not even sure if he can deal well with Fsmash spam.
 

tedward2000

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
2,395
Location
NAU
The G&w up-smash hits behind and above.
That side of him would have to be in front of him.
-t2
 
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