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living on someone elses mistakes - captain falcon in brawl

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
Joined
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Europe
I've been maining captain falcon for a long time, and plan on maining him for the rest of my brawl life, but as I gained more knowledge, I know captain falcon will have a hard time rising up on the tier list.

First I thought everyone was overreacting about falcon beeing so bad, I thought this till not so long ago.
I had my reasons for thinking this, reasons I still believe are valid for staying a falcon main. But as I started to look at falcon in a little more negative (reasonable if you will) way, I now see winning with falcon is difficult.

'The metagame' of each character and the understanding that is smash, are so deep and depend so much on experience and the situation at hand, that a true tier list is hard to make. But still, falcon's placement seems quite acurate..

With the new engine, and the infinite airdodges and the almost complete lack of hitstun, this new installment of the smash series is alot different. Mindgames are very important to almost all characters, the top characters beeing an example, as they seem to have certain attacks for certain situations, or attacks that seem to work almost all the time. Falcon, and most other characters, rely on reactions from the player on the opponents actions, and guessing (knowing) what the opponent is about to do. And as falcon's moves have quite some downsides, downsides that make him more a defensive and 'punishing' character and playing offensive with falcon will almost always be punished (by mario's nair, samus' nair, meta's nair, marth's fair, Zss' jab etc.) as alot of characters have fast moves wich counter alot of falcon's attacks.

Punishing is a big part of falcon's game overall, wich makes that almost all characters have an advantage over falcon. This alone makes falcon (one of) the worst character(s).

Don't get me wrong, in the right hands falcon can be effective, but starting a match with a disadvantage almost everytime, makes it hard to keep motivated.

Falcon is, and will always be my main and favorite character. But the way brawl works and the way the top players play and should play, falcon isn't really a character to take to a tourny, as we, the falcon mains, live on someone elses mistakes, the opponent must first make the mistakes we live on. And top players rarely make mistakes.

Imo we should all continue to main falcon and find new ways to make him better.

But the first step to beeing a good falcon player, is to acknowledge you are playing with the hardest character to win with. (as it stands now)
 

LinIsKorean

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
221
Location
Anaheim Hills, CA
Ahaha...

But in all seriousness, isn't this the reason why we play Captain Falcon to begin with? Let's be honest, most of us could probably pick up GnW or MK and place in tourneys quite easily. Playing to win would essentially tell us to use the best characters. I dunno about you guys, but I ENJOY being at a disadvantage from the get-go. It just makes victory that much sweeter.

I do understand where you're coming from though. It gets frustrating to be beaten by people you KNOW you're better than just because you play Falcon. Heck, thats what we should use secondaries for! I mean, as much as I love Falcon, theres only so many beatdowns I can take before I want a taste of revenge in the form of victory. This is where secondaries come in, and this is where I'm struggling. (I've been secondary hopping way too much.)

In the end, it will always be Falcon, worst character in the game. =)
 

New Captain Falcon

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jun 18, 2008
Messages
5
Location
Port town
it is true that is very very difficult win a tournament with falcon, but training in my base i have find a way to kill easily all opponent except MK,KIRBY AND Diddy kong, and come one Falcon is all about challenges he was one of the best in melee and to the point it was boring playing with him because you can win almos always, "Keep the Falcon path in your mind and heart to embrace your destiny and be a champ"
 

Ayaz18

Smash Champion
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May 8, 2008
Messages
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Canada, ON, St. catharines
hahaha..........

knee you look like me about three months ago hahahahaha.........

your going enter a breaking point soon, where you'll realize that Falcon is bad..........and your going to say to yourself "so what!? Im just going to kick your *** with a low tier" when you enter this "phase" your going to start achieving real results
 

Face124

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
966
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Edinburgh. Pm for a Brawl and I'll get back to you
Was that the lyrics to an emo song?
hmm, I don't get it, you never used to try and be funny and humiliate people before, but whatever.

Good read TKONTK, I for some reason enjoy reading threads like these. I never found that Falcons only option was to punish, though rather one option that allows him (usually) to come out better. You can look at all approaches by Falcon mains and think, "hmm, that Falcon performed that action because of an opening created by the opposing player", or good ones at least. Still, is it such a bad thing? Punishing opponents for the mistakes that they have made by themselves, or falsly leading an opponent in a direction likely to create holes or put them in an awkward situation. I would think this is my favourite play style. Mario's fireball approach is good and such, but nothing compared to being able to read your opponent, to understand them well enough through a few previous actions to be able to write out they're actions and be able to know what they will do before the event has even happened. That is what Falcon brings.

Falcon is probably the most though-provoking character in the game. The ultimate goal here is to know your opponent in such a way that you can take advantage of them before they know it. The idea that although A is the best choice of action, in this situation because of them attempting to read you B becomes the better. So mixing yourself up is just as important as knowing them.

Falcon has no easy way out. Spamming is impossible, cg's or infinites are non existent, Falcon is the idea of you reading your opponent and them not reading you, through whatever means possible and that is why he is the best character in brawl.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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hahaha..........

knee you look like me about three months ago hahahahaha.........

your going enter a breaking point soon, where you'll realize that Falcon is bad..........and your going to say to yourself "so what!? Im just going to kick your *** with a low tier" when you enter this "phase" your going to start achieving real results
I know, and I will continue 'to kick *** with a low tier'
but the facts are still facts
 

Stafy

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 24, 2008
Messages
246
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California (Bay Area - Oakland)
I don't care if Falcon is at the lowest tier. He always was my favorite character along with Ness since Super Smash Bros 64. Even though I know I play the "worst" character, I still think of being the best. Just like Captain Falcon's song, "In this world you've got to be strong, You got to fight to keep your spirit alive. And you might feel like there is nothing left to go forward and fight for. But it's the fight that keeps us ready and on guard."
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Europe
hmm, I don't get it, you never used to try and be funny and humiliate people before, but whatever.

Good read TKONTK, I for some reason enjoy reading threads like these. I never found that Falcons only option was to punish, though rather one option that allows him (usually) to come out better. You can look at all approaches by Falcon mains and think, "hmm, that Falcon performed that action because of an opening created by the opposing player", or good ones at least. Still, is it such a bad thing? Punishing opponents for the mistakes that they have made by themselves, or falsly leading an opponent in a direction likely to create holes or put them in an awkward situation. I would think this is my favourite play style. Mario's fireball approach is good and such, but nothing compared to being able to read your opponent, to understand them well enough through a few previous actions to be able to write out they're actions and be able to know what they will do before the event has even happened. That is what Falcon brings.

Falcon is probably the most though-provoking character in the game. The ultimate goal here is to know your opponent in such a way that you can take advantage of them before they know it. The idea that although A is the best choice of action, in this situation because of them attempting to read you B becomes the better. So mixing yourself up is just as important as knowing them.

Falcon has no easy way out. Spamming is impossible, cg's or infinites are non existent, Falcon is the idea of you reading your opponent and them not reading you, through whatever means possible and that is why he is the best character in brawl.
yes, one needs alot of mindgames with falcon, this, like you said, makes him the character you need to use your brain with most

falcon <3
 

LinIsKorean

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 1, 2008
Messages
221
Location
Anaheim Hills, CA
What I love is that everyone underestimates Captain Falcon. Great mindgames early on, until they start to wise up and realize that its about the player, not the character. =)
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
Joined
Jul 13, 2008
Messages
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What I love is that everyone underestimates Captain Falcon. Great mindgames early on, until they start to wise up and realize that its about the player, not the character. =)
yes offcourse
but the character is kinda important too:laugh:
or more what sakurai made of the character
*looks angry at sakurai*
 

LinIsKorean

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Yeah, the character obviously is important, but when people underestimate you character, they sometimes forget that there are people behind the character that make it anywhere close to decent.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Yeah, the character obviously is important, but when people underestimate you character, they sometimes forget that there are people behind the character that make it anywhere close to decent.
yeah exactly
pre-match mindgames ftw:laugh:
 

Wogrim

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 14, 2008
Messages
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Location
near San Jose, California
I've been maining captain falcon for a long time, and plan on maining him for the rest of my brawl life, but as I gained more knowledge, I know captain falcon will have a hard time rising up on the tier list.

First I thought everyone was overreacting about falcon beeing so bad, I thought this till not so long ago.
I had my reasons for thinking this, reasons I still believe are valid for staying a falcon main. But as I started to look at falcon in a little more negative (reasonable if you will) way, I now see winning with falcon is difficult.

'The metagame' of each character and the understanding that is smash, are so deep and depend so much on experience and the situation at hand, that a true tier list is hard to make. But still, falcon's placement seems quite acurate..

With the new engine, and the infinite airdodges and the almost complete lack of hitstun, this new installment of the smash series is alot different. Mindgames are very important to almost all characters, the top characters beeing an example, as they seem to have certain attacks for certain situations, or attacks that seem to work almost all the time. Falcon, and most other characters, rely on reactions from the player on the opponents actions, and guessing (knowing) what the opponent is about to do. And as falcon's moves have quite some downsides, downsides that make him more a defensive and 'punishing' character and playing offensive with falcon will almost always be punished (by mario's nair, samus' nair, meta's nair, marth's fair, Zss' jab etc.) as alot of characters have fast moves wich counter alot of falcon's attacks.

Punishing is a big part of falcon's game overall, wich makes that almost all characters have an advantage over falcon. This alone makes falcon (one of) the worst character(s).

Don't get me wrong, in the right hands falcon can be effective, but starting a match with a disadvantage almost everytime, makes it hard to keep motivated.

Falcon is, and will always be my main and favorite character. But the way brawl works and the way the top players play and should play, falcon isn't really a character to take to a tourny, as we, the falcon mains, live on someone elses mistakes, the opponent must first make the mistakes we live on. And top players rarely make mistakes.

Imo we should all continue to main falcon and find new ways to make him better.

But the first step to beeing a good falcon player, is to acknowledge you are playing with the hardest character to win with. (as it stands now)
That doesn't really make sense to me. Being good at punishing is a bad thing? Falcon is godly when it comes to punishing. As long as you can out-think your opponent, Falcon has a great chance at winning. They don't have to strictly make a mistake, but as long as you can figure out what they're likely to do you can avoid most of Falcon's weaknesses.
 

illinialex24

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That doesn't really make sense to me. Being good at punishing is a bad thing? Falcon is godly when it comes to punishing. As long as you can out-think your opponent, Falcon has a great chance at winning. They don't have to strictly make a mistake, but as long as you can figure out what they're likely to do you can avoid most of Falcon's weaknesses.
In short, Falcon can't do much besides punish an opponent. If the opponent plays carefully and doesn't make mistakes, he really can't win unless he's a lot better or he's playing Ganondorf.
 

Punishment Divine

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Why the **** is it that every time I come into the Falcon boards expecting to see some sort of improvement I just find another emo post about how he sucks so hard and all the Falcon mains should rise up and overcome?

Yes, Falcon sucks. Yes he's fun. And yes all of you are very dedicated, good for you. But don't you think it's about time you got off your lazy ***** and tried, you know, advancing his metagame somehow?
 

illinialex24

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Discovered: Sending Napalm
Why the **** is it that every time I come into the Falcon boards expecting to see some sort of improvement I just find another emo post about how he sucks so hard and all the Falcon mains should rise up and overcome?

Yes, Falcon sucks. Yes he's fun. And yes all of you are very dedicated, good for you. But don't you think it's about time you got off your lazy ***** and tried, you know, advancing his metagame somehow?
I'm just here because I'm trying to stop all the scrubs who think he's good from making other people realize they don't know anything. And after that I think we might be able to advance him.
 

Punishment Divine

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I'm just here because I'm trying to stop all the scrubs who think he's good from making other people realize they don't know anything. And after that I think we might be able to advance him.
Remember, this is smashboards, where most people don't know anything and refuse to learn.

I mean that the dedicated Falcon mainers, or so called dedicated Falcon mainers, are just sitting here talking about falcon's colors and how much he sucks. I mean, even the Ganon boards have a recent character guide.

Is everyone really so lazy where one soul can't stand up and do something about this?
 

illinialex24

Smash Hero
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Remember, this is smashboards, where most people don't know anything and refuse to learn.

I mean that the dedicated Falcon mainers, or so called dedicated Falcon mainers, are just sitting here talking about falcon's colors and how much he sucks. I mean, even the Ganon boards have a recent character guide.

Is everyone really so lazy where one soul can't stand up and do something about this?
I would but I suck as Falcon and use him when I want to screw around. But maybe I should start leading another board :). Leading two low tier boards should get me into debate hall at least...
 

Wogrim

Smash Lord
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near San Jose, California
I'm just here because I'm trying to stop all the scrubs who think he's good from making other people realize they don't know anything. And after that I think we might be able to advance him.
I would but I suck as Falcon and use him when I want to screw around. But maybe I should start leading another board :). Leading two low tier boards should get me into debate hall at least...
If you suck as Falcon why post all this stuff about Falcon being bad? You clearly don't know how good Falcon may be if you're no good with him.

And there's no way you're going to lead this board without vids of your Falcon being amazing.
 

Face124

Smash Ace
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Exactly Wogrim. I just can't understand you, your leading our board? Your telling people Falcon has no range, no priority, no kill moves. Wrong. Some of his moves have good priority, some have good range and some are good kill moves. Thats what we are using. Thats what our Falcon is based on, the moves that do stand a chance.

Hahaha. You were leading our boards. You don't even main him, you haven't given any good advice yet and haven't come up with a good idea yet. If anyone "leads a boards" (which is a sort of stupid idea anyway) its Ayaz18 and ToKneeOrNotToknee. I'm stumped at how you actually thought you were leading our board.
 

Lemon Drop

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May 16, 2006
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1,286
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KY, USA
I find illinialex funny. An elitist who admits he isn't very good with a character, yet think he is the messiah of low tier Brawl or something. Maybe if he open his eyes and notice the new discussions that popped up in the past couple of weeks about strategies as well as a match-up thread with intelligent posts throughout.

Seems kind of scrubby to say your leading a board when in fact others are doing it much better than you. Like Face said, no one person really leads an entire character board.
 

Shadow_Bane

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 18, 2008
Messages
49
I agree with Divine.
You guys need to improve his Metagame.
And stop you b*******.
Cause you aren't gonna go anywhere with that.

I mean, you can't always depend on punishing punishing punishing.
Soon everybody is going to learn that, that is all C. Falcon is.
And they will exploit it.
Then we will see less Falcon mainers on the boards.



P.S. wtf am I doing on these threads?!
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Why the **** is it that every time I come into the Falcon boards expecting to see some sort of improvement I just find another emo post about how he sucks so hard and all the Falcon mains should rise up and overcome?

Yes, Falcon sucks. Yes he's fun. And yes all of you are very dedicated, good for you. But don't you think it's about time you got off your lazy ***** and tried, you know, advancing his metagame somehow?
emo post ey?
you should get off your lazy *** and search around the board first, we are working on his meta game

and you should just gtfo or search before you post crap like that

Remember, this is smashboards, where most people don't know anything and refuse to learn.

I mean that the dedicated Falcon mainers, or so called dedicated Falcon mainers, are just sitting here talking about falcon's colors and how much he sucks. I mean, even the Ganon boards have a recent character guide.

Is everyone really so lazy where one soul can't stand up and do something about this?
lol
and you are helping in what way?
I have enough 'contributing' threads
so please, just leave
 

Nick The Potato

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
105
Hmmm...When I first came here I had no idea Captain Falcon was lowest tier. Now that I do...I still always use him. -.-
Don't leave Falcon ToKneeOrNotToKnee.
He's Falcon. Think about that.
(Also you have one of the best name ever.)
 

Ayaz18

Smash Champion
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May 8, 2008
Messages
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you other people just don't understand..............Falcon doesn't have ANYTHING going for him.............at all

we all try to advance his meta game, really we do it's just that Falcon is so limited that these boards are compiled of 1/30th useful threads and 29/30ths spam/bull****
 

Nick The Potato

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Nov 9, 2008
Messages
105
I know he has nothing going for him. I know that his priority is worse than Rosie O Donell's sex life.
Maybe I'm just being optomistic...
 

Wogrim

Smash Lord
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1,338
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near San Jose, California
you other people just don't understand..............Falcon doesn't have ANYTHING going for him.............at all

we all try to advance his meta game, really we do it's just that Falcon is so limited that these boards are compiled of 1/30th useful threads and 29/30ths spam/bull****
He has speed going for him, which gives him good punishing options. I occasionally play random with my friends, and most other characters can only punish stuff with 1-2 moves, if at all, because of a lack of speed, which means only a couple moves will reach in those situations (usually meaning tilt, dash attack, or projectile). Those couple of moves are generally less damaging and/or have less knockback than what Falcon can do in the same situation. Those other characters are also often too slow to even do a bait and punish routine because they are either too slow to make a convincing bait (as in avoid getting hit) or are unable to effectively punish after baiting. Falcon's speed gives him a playstyle that is unusable for most characters, which means you can't say he's terrible just based on comparing move priority/speed/knockback/damage.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Hmmm...When I first came here I had no idea Captain Falcon was lowest tier. Now that I do...I still always use him. -.-
Don't leave Falcon ToKneeOrNotToKnee.
He's Falcon. Think about that.
(Also you have one of the best name ever.)
I will NEVER EVER leave falcon
falcon is, and will always will be my main

and thanks:laugh:I also thought falcon meets shakespear would be cool
 

Punishment Divine

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emo post ey?
you should get off your lazy *** and search around the board first, we are working on his meta game

and you should just gtfo or search before you post crap like that



lol
and you are helping in what way?
I have enough 'contributing' threads
so please, just leave
Lol, look nub, first off don't insult me. That's your first mistake. I'm only trying to help

Second of all, I look around these boards and I don't even see a guide for new players. I don't see a strategy list, I see barely any matchup discussion. all i see is combo vids, discussions about how manly CF is (Although he is) and threads like "OMFG I FOUND A NEW COMBO!!1!1!"

Most character boards have, in fact, MORE than one of those threads. I know the Marth Boards has at least 3 strategy topics on the first page alone, and finished it's matchup discussions a looooong time ago.

And of course, at least twice a week at this point, I see a thread like this. *************** JohnJohnJohn.

Get over yourself CF boards. I understand your character sucks, but there's so much more you can do to improve his metagame.

I don't know a lot about CF, which is why I'm not saying I'm going to be your messiah or something, but if I may interject in your affairs and suggest something? Start off with a guide for new players, that's basic. Then maybe take your matchup discussion at a faster pace. Then you can move onto strategy, priority, and frame data.

Although this will probably get lost in a mass of crap, I'm just trying to help get CF out of the gutter he's in.
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
Joined
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Messages
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Europe
Lol, look nub, first off don't insult me. That's your first mistake. I'm only trying to help

Second of all, I look around these boards and I don't even see a guide for new players. I don't see a strategy list, I see barely any matchup discussion. all i see is combo vids, discussions about how manly CF is (Although he is) and threads like "OMFG I FOUND A NEW COMBO!!1!1!"

Most character boards have, in fact, MORE than one of those threads. I know the Marth Boards has at least 3 strategy topics on the first page alone, and finished it's matchup discussions a looooong time ago.

And of course, at least twice a week at this point, I see a thread like this. *************** JohnJohnJohn.

Get over yourself CF boards. I understand your character sucks, but there's so much more you can do to improve his metagame.

I don't know a lot about CF, which is why I'm not saying I'm going to be your messiah or something, but if I may interject in your affairs and suggest something? Start off with a guide for new players, that's basic. Then maybe take your matchup discussion at a faster pace. Then you can move onto strategy, priority, and frame data.

Although this will probably get lost in a mass of crap, I'm just trying to help get CF out of the gutter he's in.
lol, look nub
if you would have really looked around the boards, you would have seen face's thread for new players

and also, get over ourselves? lol, there are quite some people who don't even know why captain falcon is as bad as he is, if anything, keep saying he's bad is good, it keeps real nubs from wondering

a faster pace in the matchup discussion is easier said than done, as you may have noticed, not many people are active falcon mainers/falcon board posters

I 'appreciate' you trying to help, but throwing around the word 'nub' aint helping much

most you said is under construction or just impossible due to the lack of frequent posters (as in a matchup thread, alot of opinions/experiences are needed)
 

Zeallyx

Fox mains get all the girlz
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Messages
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Not really.

Now I see why the Falcon bards don't get anything done. Oh well.
dude, just because the ideas you had are already under construction or just don't work doesn't mean we can't get anything done..

anyway, wanna brawl, divine?
 

Punishment Divine

Smash Champion
Joined
May 21, 2008
Messages
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Location
Long Island, NY
dude, just because the ideas you had are already under construction or just don't work doesn't mean we can't get anything done..

anyway, wanna brawl, divine?
The fact is, these things should have been done a long time ago and I don't know of anyone creating guides or frame data so...

Come to a tournament I'm going too and I'll be glad.

I don't do wifi.
 
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