List of things to buff Mewtwo

[MegaBlaster1234]

To add to this, the helpless state actually hinders Mewtwo's air mobility. If you look at Wario, his air mobility isn't affected at all whenever he's in a helpless state.

Isn't that because of Mewtwo's bad aerial acceleration?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Isn't that because of Mewtwo's bad aerial acceleration?

Air acceleration is the rate that it takes to change a fighter's horizontal velocity while he/she is in the air, but it doesn't have anything to do with how fast a fighter's air speed is; a fighter can have excellent air acceleration, but have poor air speed. Anyway, for some fighters, whenever they're in a helpless state, their air speed takes a plummet; examples include Meta Knight and Charizard.

 

[Chiroz]

Not sure if I wrote this upstream or in another thread, but I would like to see Disable have transcendent priority, so that is guaranteed to pass through all other hitboxes. This could offer possibilities to interrupt aerial exchanges (particularly against disjoints) in the air which would have some utility without changing the move too much, or subverting its existing damage/knockback.

Doesn't it already have a transcendent hitbox? It can hit physical projectiles, sure but as far as Swords and attacks with disjoints or partial intangibility go, I hit people all the time.

The problem is regularly I get hit first, knocking me back with 0 chance of capitalizing on the Disable.

 

[Chiroz]

Air acceleration is the rate that it takes to change a fighter's horizontal velocity while he/she is in the air, but it doesn't have anything to do with how fast a fighter's air speed is; a fighter can have excellent air acceleration, but have poor air speed. Anyway, for some fighters, whenever they're in a helpless state, their air speed takes a plummet; examples include Meta Knight and Charizard.

Is this actually air speed or is it just Up-B's that cancel momentum?

I always thought most Up-B's (with some exceptions) canceled momentum. Chars with good air acceleration would be able to get back to their max air speed while chars with poor air acceleration would obviously plummet downwards as they tried to regain their speed.

An easy way to test is making a huge map and doing Up-B at the very top and checking how fast Mewtwo moves by the time he reaches the bottom.



I've said it since Mewtwo released, the super bad air acceleration is what's hindering Mewtwo the most out of anything else. Look at Rosa who comparatively dies at the same %s as we do but has a much easier time not getting hit. It's not only Luma, it's the fact that she can weave in and out of fights and stay at optimal range, also she can escape combos with her mobility and escape punishes with mind games. Mewtwo just eats everything because as soon as you get hit or make a mistake your opponent knows exactly where you will land, there is 0 drift.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I've said it since Mewtwo released, the super bad air acceleration is what's hindering Mewtwo the most out of anything else. Look at Rosa who comparatively dies at the same %s as we do but has a much easier time not getting hit. It's not only Luma, it's the fact that she can weave in and out of fights and stay at optimal range, also she can escape combos with her mobility and escape punishes with mind games. Mewtwo just eats everything because as soon as you get hit or make a mistake your opponent knows exactly where you will land, there is 0 drift.

Rosalina has her own problems though, because her air speed is only at an average level, which is quite mediocre when compared to the rest of the cast. So even though her air mobility is better, Rosalina's average air speed does make it hard for her to land safely against the faster threats; anyone with a walk speed value that's greater than 1 can easily keep up with Rosalina's air speed without having to dash.

The story would be different, however, if Rosalina had Mewtwo's air speed (which is very possible with the Glider bonus effect).

 

[meleebrawler]

Air acceleration is the rate that it takes to change a fighter's horizontal velocity while he/she is in the air, but it doesn't have anything to do with how fast a fighter's air speed is; a fighter can have excellent air acceleration, but have poor air speed. Anyway, for some fighters, whenever they're in a helpless state, their air speed takes a plummet; examples include Meta Knight and Charizard.

All fighters with a notable speed decrease in helplessness (besides the two already mentioned and Mewtwo): /,
/, , (barely noticeable due to horrendous aerial endlag), , , .

Most of them being moves that are potent OOS or mainly vertical recoveries, so the reduced air mobility is to increase risk.
Notably, Mewtwo's airspeed in helplessness is similar to that of Zelda and Palutena, who both also use warping up bs.

Doesn't it already have a transcendent hitbox? It can hit physical projectiles, sure but as far as Swords and attacks with disjoints or partial intangibility go, I hit people all the time.

The problem is regularly I get hit first, knocking me back with 0 chance of capitalizing on the Disable.

If by physical you mean items like Link's bombs sure, otherwise it's 100% transcendent. Dunno if it's better that way though...

Is this actually air speed or is it just Up-B's that cancel momentum?

I always thought most Up-B's (with some exceptions) canceled momentum. Chars with good air acceleration would be able to get back to their max air speed while chars with poor air acceleration would obviously plummet downwards as they tried to regain their speed.

An easy way to test is making a huge map and doing Up-B at the very top and checking how fast Mewtwo moves by the time he reaches the bottom.



I've said it since Mewtwo released, the super bad air acceleration is what's hindering Mewtwo the most out of anything else. Look at Rosa who comparatively dies at the same %s as we do but has a much easier time not getting hit. It's not only Luma, it's the fact that she can weave in and out of fights and stay at optimal range, also she can escape combos with her mobility and escape punishes with mind games. Mewtwo just eats everything because as soon as you get hit or make a mistake your opponent knows exactly where you will land, there is 0 drift.

Gee, why isn't Ryu known for being juggle fodder then? Because he has options to avoid attacks. And so does Mewtwo.

Rosa avoiding combos better is more due to her floatiness letting her bounce out (Mewtwo's fall speed is just average), which then gives her a chance to use her disjointed aerials to counter.

 

[Chiroz]

All fighters with a notable speed decrease in helplessness (besides the two already mentioned and Mewtwo): /,
/, , (barely noticeable due to horrendous aerial endlag), , , .

Most of them being moves that are potent OOS or mainly vertical recoveries, so the reduced air mobility is to increase risk.
Notably, Mewtwo's airspeed in helplessness is similar to that of Zelda and Palutena, who both also use warping up bs.



If by physical you mean items like Link's bombs sure, otherwise it's 100% transcendent. Dunno if it's better that way though...



Gee, why isn't Ryu known for being juggle fodder then? Because he has options to avoid attacks. And so does Mewtwo.

Rosa avoiding combos better is more due to her floatiness letting her bounce out (Mewtwo's fall speed is just average), which then gives her a chance to use her disjointed aerials to counter.

Yes, I meant physical projectiles. It was purposely made to hit those because that's the way it was in Melee. It's transcendent which is what I was telling Mr. B.

Both Ryu and Mewtwo are both easy to combo. Depending on who you use you have to watch out for Focus Attack and even then you can still get a free hit. Ryu also has FAC and Tatsumaki both of which accelerate him instantly. Mewtwo has Confusion which is extremely vulnerable from the bottom, which is why it's normally used to change momentum (B-Reverse/Wavebounce) and thus bypass the acceleration problem.

If floatyness was really Rosalina's only strength then why is she not able to dodge any of the completely vertical combos, going as far as being the easiest char to combo vertically in the game. Being floaty is obviously good to avoid combos, but I believe that in general aerial acceleration is very underrated by players in it's ability to help avoid strings and juggles.

I don't actually know, but the only floaty char with bad aerial acceleration is G&W. I have 0 G&W knowledge tbh, but depending on how "comboable" he is then that might prove my point or might prove me wrong.

Rosalina has her own problems though, because her air speed is only at an average level, which is quite mediocre when compared to the rest of the cast. So even though her air mobility is better, Rosalina's average air speed does make it hard for her to land safely against the faster threats; anyone with a walk speed value that's greater than 1 can easily keep up with Rosalina's air speed without having to dash.

The story would be different, however, if Rosalina had Mewtwo's air speed (which is very possible with the Glider bonus effect).

True, I also think max air speed is important, but I feel that in general aerial acceleration is better to avoid being juggled or punished. There's obviously many factors like height, fall speed, gravity, weight, etc, but I feel like aerial acceleration is the most underrated factor.

 

[Aninymouse]

This is a fascinating conversation. I don't know what the true answer is, but I love that we're discussing it.

 

[420quickscoper]

My last post on here was suppose to be my, well, last, but now my mind is a bit different on this topic.

I admit, before I saw it as when people wanted buffs they thought he was low tier or something like that, even after 1.1.3. I'll just stand up and say that Mewtwo doesn't need buffs, but, I admit, I do want a high tier Mewtwo.

Not a top tier one, though. I just don't really want him to be top-tier, but just be pretty good. So here's what I want.

1: It might sound a bit insane, but I want another increase to his run speed. That 130 Speed stat in Pokemon just makes me want to have it. Tie him with Sheik or Charizard's run speed.
2: Make Jab frame 3. Mewtwo's frame data is mediocre mostly because he lacks a frame 5, 4, or lower move. Do this and this will sorta be fixed.
3: This isn't exactly a buff, but speed up u-throw's animation. Seriously, the animation takes quite a long time. Make it not weight-based and make the animation as fast as when you use it on Kirby.

 

[Chiroz]

My last post on here was suppose to be my, well, last, but now my mind is a bit different on this topic.

I admit, before I saw it as when people wanted buffs they thought he was low tier or something like that, even after 1.1.3. I'll just stand up and say that Mewtwo doesn't need buffs, but, I admit, I do want a high tier Mewtwo.

Not a top tier one, though. I just don't really want him to be top-tier, but just be pretty good. So here's what I want.

1: It might sound a bit insane, but I want another increase to his run speed. That 130 Speed stat in Pokemon just makes me want to have it. Tie him with Sheik or Charizard's run speed.
2: Make Jab frame 3. Mewtwo's frame data is mediocre mostly because he lacks a frame 5, 4, or lower move. Do this and this will sorta be fixed.
3: This isn't exactly a buff, but speed up u-throw's animation. Seriously, the animation takes quite a long time. Make it not weight-based and make the animation as fast as when you use it on Kirby.

Increasing his run speed further will either not help him that much if it's too little or it will break him if it's too much because of Shadow Ball. If we're fast enough to get guaranteed grabs out of a shields or guaranteed punishes out of a dodge Mewtwo will basically negate all options but jumping when throwing a Shadow Ball. His gameplay will change to mirror that of Luigi's only Mewtwo isn't as vulnerable as Luigi in the air.

If Shadow Ball end lag is increased in order to give Mewtwo runspeed that's a huge nerf.



What's the point of U-Throw being faster? It's purely vertical move which means DI affects it very, very minimally, allowing chars to survive barely any longer. I actually love how the move is and the speed sort of allows you to feel good about yourself as the opponent swirls around you.

 

[420quickscoper]

Increasing his run speed further won't really help him that much, there's much better changes he could use. Or it might break him because of Shadow Ball if we're fast enough to get guaranteed grabs out of a shields or guaranteed punishes out of a dodge.

What's the point of U-Throw being faster? It's purely vertical move which means DI affects it very, very minimally, allowing chars to survive barely any longer. I actually love how the move is and the speed sort of allows you to feel good about yourself as the opponent swirls around you.

Actually, I was thinking about both of those things. I think that just making Jab frame 3 and leaving u-throw alone is fine.
What else would he need, though?
I would personally like back throw's angle to be changed - where it's more of an angle that's close to 90 degrees or lower. I don't really know how angle works, but I think that angle would make its knockback move you a lot more horizontally than vertical.

 

[Furret24]

Actually, I was thinking about both of those things. I think that just making Jab frame 3 and leaving u-throw alone is fine.
What else would he need, though?
I would personally like back throw's angle to be changed - where it's more of an angle that's close to 90 degrees or lower. I don't really know how angle works, but I think that angle would make its knockback move you a lot more horizontally than vertical.

Changing it from it's current angle to "90 degrees or lower" would send opponents more vertically.

 

[420quickscoper]

Changing it from it's current angle to "90 degrees or lower" would send opponents more vertically.

Oh. So that means sending it at a higher angle would make it more horizontal?

 

[Furret24]

Oh. So that means sending it at a higher angle would make it more horizontal?

Horizontal is side to side, vertical is up and down.

 

[Aninymouse]

A frame 3 jab would be exceedingly helpful, yes. Nair being that fast would give us a combo breaker, which would potentially be even more useful.

I'd like to see the damage raised on a few of Mewtwo's moves. Getting the Shulk treatment, where nearly everything gets 0.5% more damage, would be very helpful.

 

[Chiroz]

Oh. So that means sending it at a higher angle would make it more horizontal?

U-Throw is 90 degrees for example. The direction your character is facing is always considered 0.

 

[Mr. B]

Doesn't it already have a transcendent hitbox? It can hit physical projectiles, sure but as far as Swords and attacks with disjoints or partial intangibility go, I hit people all the time.

The problem is regularly I get hit first, knocking me back with 0 chance of capitalizing on the Disable.

If it can hit anything other than a hurtbox, its not transcendent (AFAIK) although you have made me think that perhaps the problem for me is getting the timing right. From what I had seen, I could only get the disable to go through the gaps between hitboxes... This is one of those things to need a lab partner to test properly...

 

[Smog Frog]

could use an endlag reduction on dthrow. it's so tantalizingly close to comboing into kills...but the endlag is just enough to keep it from happening.

here are numbers on other characters combo throws:
- 8 frames before he can act out of dthrow
- 17 frames before she can act out of dthrow
- 8 frames before he can act out of uthrow, 12 for dthrow
- 17 frames before she can act out of fthrow, 22 for dthrow(this is why she doesnt have guaranteed confirms at high %)

now ? 27 frames. looking at the data for it, the kb and kbg seem to suggest it would be used for a combo throw, as well as the angle(74, which pops them up in front of you). aside from damage everything about it screams "COMBO THROW!"(even then cargo uthrow does 10% to 9%) but it was completely butchered by the endlag. also the trailer showed dthrow seemingly combing into usmash, so theres that i guess. if it was intended as a trap throw, why have that AND confusion?



aside from that, he needs all the help he can get securing early kills. he has no trouble killing as is, but he's so goddamn light that he needs to have multiple easy ways to get kills before 100%. this character should make you terrified to whiff or hit his shield or make the wrong read and he's 3/4ths of the way there. he just needs the extra bit of firepower.

 

[Mr. B]

Thinking about it and reading other threads, perhaps I should be thinking of the weirdly nicknamed "trample" special characteristic for disable... to make it interrupt the opponent's attempt to strike you in a tradeoff...

 

[Chiroz]

If it can hit anything other than a hurtbox, its not transcendent (AFAIK) although you have made me think that perhaps the problem for me is getting the timing right. From what I had seen, I could only get the disable to go through the gaps between hitboxes... This is one of those things to need a lab partner to test properly...

Disable is transcendent with a very specific exception.

Also according to your definition, it's transcendent with NO exceptions. Physical Projectiles are the ones that have a hurtbox. Basically Disable goes through all hitboxes but stops at the first hurtbox it encounters, whether that be a tree, a bomb or a player.

 

[godogod]

The only thing I'm worried about down throw getting buffed to being a near/true combo, is how it will affect forward throw and other moves in terms of utility. You'll easily be able to rack up+20 damage with down throw and another move(say f air or up smash)., because down throw itself does 10 damage. But then that would leave forward throw's job as a throw that racks up damage, to be kind pointless to use. It's not like we'd have to use forward throw for mix ups and refreshing staleness. It's gonna be like ftilt in terms of usefulness.

But having down throw true combo into another move for massive damage is better than where we're at easily. Down throw even has the potential to give down tilt a run for its money, though down tilt has more range.. Perhaps make down throw true combo at low percents(50% and less)? What do you guys think?

Oh and speaking of forward tilt, F tilt itself should be faster like its melee version.

 

[420quickscoper]

The only thing I'm worried about down throw getting buffed to being a near/true combo, is how it will affect forward throw and other moves in terms of utility. You'll easily be able to rack up+20 damage with down throw and another move(say f air or up smash)., because down throw itself does 10 damage. But then that would leave forward throw's job as a throw that racks up damage, to be kind pointless to use. It's not like we'd have to use forward throw for mix ups and refreshing staleness. It's gonna be like ftilt in terms of usefulness.

But having down throw true combo into another move for massive damage is better than where we're at easily. Down throw even has the potential to give down tilt a run for its money, though down tilt has more range.. Perhaps make down throw true combo at low percents(50% and less)? What do you guys think?

Oh and speaking of forward tilt, F tilt itself should be faster like its melee version.

Maybe down throw could have followups until 40%? That seems like a rather good idea. I don't want it to mess his other throws up, so it would be around 30-40%. Seem good? No messing up down tilt, though.

As for forward tilt, here are the buffs needed, in my opinion, to make it a viable move.
1. Hitbox active frame 10 > 8
2. Endlag slightly decreased
3. Damage for maximum spaced forward tilt: 8 > 10
4. Damage for somewhat spaced forward tilt: 9 > 11
5: Damage for close up forward tilt: 10 > 12
6: Knockback significantly increased, can kill around 130% at the middle of FD.

Even though forward tilts are generally the tilt that doesn't really have anything special about it (take for example Mario's forward tilt, just a simple knock, not useful), but that's all the more reason Mewtwo's, and all the other lame forward tilts should be buffed, right?

 

[meleebrawler]

aside from that, he needs all the help he can get securing early kills. he has no trouble killing as is, but he's so goddamn light that he needs to have multiple easy ways to get kills before 100%. this character should make you terrified to whiff or hit his shield or make the wrong read and he's 3/4ths of the way there. he just needs the extra bit of firepower.

Dedede needs more help with this. At least Mewtwo has a decent chance to land his kill moves without a big mistake from the opponent or taking a huge risk.

 

[Luigi player]

At this point I'd just like it if they fix up some stuff:

- fsmash a bit more range to match the effects (atm it has like 1 pixel more range than dsmash lol)
- grabrange hitbox at the hand... the range is less than it looks like, or at least match the visuals if they don't want to buff that
- weight, obviously. It doesn't need to be as heavy as it would make sense (that would maybe make it too good), but at least make it a bit more (more like its Melee weight, lower end of mid-weight or something)
- being able to B-reverse downB (pretty hard to hit with the move anyway, this could help to threaten a little while having your back to the opponent in the air)

I think Mewtwo is already pretty good now (solid mid or maybe even better with decently good MUs against most characters, though most are still in the opponents favor by a little), but a few things are still annyoing (mismatching hitboxes that look like they should hit but don't, dying too early sometimes, ..).

 

[Murlough]

I like him the way he is now honestly. I wish his jab was faster and his U-tilt was easier to use but thats about it.

Some hitboxes should be added in my opinion but I'm fine with what I've got.

 

[Mr. B]

Disable is transcendent with a very specific exception.

Also according to your definition, it's transcendent with NO exceptions. Physical Projectiles are the ones that have a hurtbox. Basically Disable goes through all hitboxes but stops at the first hurtbox it encounters, whether that be a tree, a bomb or a player.

Huh... I have clearly been misreading the situations. Basically what I want is to be able to interrupt attacks with disable, such that they go to sleep and don't hit me with their massive sword. Maybe that would be hideously unbalanced.

 

[Chiroz]

Huh... I have clearly been misreading the situations. Basically what I want is to be able to interrupt attacks with disable, such that they go to sleep and don't hit me with their massive sword. Maybe that would be hideously unbalanced.

Disable does interrupt attacks in the exact same way that you're describing.

The problem you're having is either: A-) Their attack has shorter startup than yours and Disable never comes out or B-) Disable doesn't reach them in time before their attack connects with you.

Remember that Disable is a projectile and must reach the opponent's hitbox. You probably want Disable to have less startup. And that might be OP.

 

[Virum]

After thinking about it a fair bit, personally I'd like to see the following:

- Jab 1 startup from 6 to 5. Active frames increased from 1 to 3 frames:
Mewtwo having a mediocre boxing game I think is a fine weakness considering the range and speed of his pokes and the strength of his moves. He's capable of walling out most of his foes from a good range and can cover approaches with moves like DTilt, UTilt, spaced FAir and Shadow Ball. Consequently it makes sense that he should suffer when the opponent successfully breaks into his zone. However as it stands his jab is a little too slow and largely outclassed by his DTilt. This at least strengthens its utility in terms of nullifying projectiles and slight pressure relief, giving it a little more of a niche over DTilt.

- Rapid Jab hitbox sizes increased and knockback adjusted to link more reliably. Rapid Jab Finisher damage increased from 2 to 4%. Active frames increased from 1 to 3. KBG increased from 100 to 120:
Currently like many jab loops Mewtwo's is rather unreliable even without taking SDI into account. This serves to make it both more reliable and rewarding as it now serves more of a purpose combined with his jab 1 buffs, allowing this move to potentially secure high percent kills as well (later than Rosa's jab though).

- FTilt FAF reduced from 36 to 32. Damage increased from 10/9/8 to 11/10/9. BKB increased from 20 to 32:
This is a candidate for Mewtwo's worst move as it stands. It's slightly lacking in just about every area barring range. There's no real threat to this move because it's slower, less rewarding and less safe than DTilt. These changes make the move more threatening in a number of ways, most notably it gives Mewtwo relatively fast ground kill option at late percents. For reference sweetspot FTilt is a little weaker in terms of knockback than Zard's sweetspot FTilt but is notably safer at a respectable -6 on block (good for a move of its range).

- FSmash sweetspot BKB/KBG increased from 21/85 to 30/95. Sourspot KBG increased from 90 to 100:
Being a glass cannon character, a few of Mewtwo's hardest hitting "cannon" elements don't quite hit hard enough. FSmash being one of them. Considering its slow startup and general lack of safety on block its knockback is rather underwhelming. This makes the sweetspot for this move a little stronger than Falcon's FSmash, giving him greater explosive power from hard punishes/reads.

- DSmash active frames increased from 2 to 4. Hitbox size made approximately 0.5 units larger and lowered very slightly:
I find it odd how this move, despite the nature of its aesthetic, doesn't actually hit below the ledge particularly well. Considering it would become both weaker and slower than FSmash post its KB buff, I think it could use a little more in terms of utility than just safety on block and whiff. If anything this helps this move become a little more intuitive.

- All Grab hitboxes increased by approximately 0.5 units:
Pretty self explanatory. In many instances Mewtwo's grab is susceptible to whiffing the opponent when it shouldn't. Simple really. A similar change was made to WFT too a little while back for what it's worth.

- Teleport adjusted overall to closer match Melee Teleport:
This is quite an interesting one. The main reason for this change is primarily to omit its funky momentum based issues but making the move match Melee Teleport brings about a few other things. The move was overall a little quicker in Melee (e.g. intangibility triggered frame 7 instead of 9) and aerial Teleport had significantly less landing lag allowing Mewtwo to ambiguously close the gap and create strong mindgames, adding a new layer to his offensive play and further assisting his ability to land.

---

That's mostly it tbh. The main objective behind this list is to remain true to his current design but allow him to get more off of his heavier commitments while spicing up a few things here and there. He's in a pretty good spot as it is and there's quite a bit of depth to him. Even the best Mewtwos have yet to fully optimise this character. There's a lot this character can do and he's designed to reward a player's overall awareness and fundamentals while punishing the player hard for poor decision making. These changes are designed to push the strong elements of him a little further.

 

[LRodC]

After thinking about it a fair bit, personally I'd like to see the following:

- Jab 1 startup from 6 to 5. Active frames increased from 1 to 3 frames:
Mewtwo having a mediocre boxing game I think is a fine weakness considering the range and speed of his pokes and the strength of his moves. He's capable of walling out most of his foes from a good range and can cover approaches with moves like DTilt, UTilt, spaced FAir and Shadow Ball. Consequently it makes sense that he should suffer when the opponent successfully breaks into his zone. However as it stands his jab is a little too slow and largely outclassed by his DTilt. This at least strengthens its utility in terms of nullifying projectiles and slight pressure relief, giving it a little more of a niche over DTilt.

- Rapid Jab hitbox sizes increased and knockback adjusted to link more reliably. Rapid Jab Finisher damage increased from 2 to 4%. Active frames increased from 1 to 3. KBG increased from 100 to 120:
Currently like many jab loops Mewtwo's is rather unreliable even without taking SDI into account. This serves to make it both more reliable and rewarding as it now serves more of a purpose combined with his jab 1 buffs, allowing this move to potentially secure high percent kills as well (later than Rosa's jab though).

- FTilt FAF reduced from 36 to 32. Damage increased from 10/9/8 to 11/10/9. BKB increased from 20 to 32:
This is a candidate for Mewtwo's worst move as it stands. It's slightly lacking in just about every area barring range. There's no real threat to this move because it's slower, less rewarding and less safe than DTilt. These changes make the move more threatening in a number of ways, most notably it gives Mewtwo relatively fast ground kill option at late percents. For reference sweetspot FTilt is a little weaker in terms of knockback than Zard's sweetspot FTilt but is notably safer at a respectable -6 on block (good for a move of its range).

- FSmash sweetspot BKB/KBG increased from 21/85 to 30/95. Sourspot KBG increased from 90 to 100:
Being a glass cannon character, a few of Mewtwo's hardest hitting "cannon" elements don't quite hit hard enough. FSmash being one of them. Considering its slow startup and general lack of safety on block its knockback is rather underwhelming. This makes the sweetspot for this move a little stronger than Falcon's FSmash, giving him greater explosive power from hard punishes/reads.

- DSmash active frames increased from 2 to 4. Hitbox size made approximately 0.5 units larger and lowered very slightly:
I find it odd how this move, despite the nature of its aesthetic, doesn't actually hit below the ledge particularly well. Considering it would become both weaker and slower than FSmash post its KB buff, I think it could use a little more in terms of utility than just safety on block and whiff. If anything this helps this move become a little more intuitive.

- All Grab hitboxes increased by approximately 0.5 units:
Pretty self explanatory. In many instances Mewtwo's grab is susceptible to whiffing the opponent when it shouldn't. Simple really. A similar change was made to WFT too a little while back for what it's worth.

- Teleport adjusted overall to closer match Melee Teleport:
This is quite an interesting one. The main reason for this change is primarily to omit its funky momentum based issues but making the move match Melee Teleport brings about a few other things. The move was overall a little quicker in Melee (e.g. intangibility triggered frame 7 instead of 9) and aerial Teleport had significantly less landing lag allowing Mewtwo to ambiguously close the gap and create strong mindgames, adding a new layer to his offensive play and further assisting his ability to land.

---

That's mostly it tbh. The main objective behind this list is to remain true to his current design but allow him to get more off of his heavier commitments while spicing up a few things here and there. He's in a pretty good spot as it is and there's quite a bit of depth to him. Even the best Mewtwos have yet to fully optimise this character. There's a lot this character can do and he's designed to reward a player's overall awareness and fundamentals while punishing the player hard for poor decision making. These changes are designed to push the strong elements of him a little further.

I like these changes. They're mostly reasonable and don't change his design philosophy up too much.

 

[pikazz]

After thinking about it a fair bit, personally I'd like to see the following:

- Jab 1 startup from 6 to 5. Active frames increased from 1 to 3 frames:
Mewtwo having a mediocre boxing game I think is a fine weakness considering the range and speed of his pokes and the strength of his moves. He's capable of walling out most of his foes from a good range and can cover approaches with moves like DTilt, UTilt, spaced FAir and Shadow Ball. Consequently it makes sense that he should suffer when the opponent successfully breaks into his zone. However as it stands his jab is a little too slow and largely outclassed by his DTilt. This at least strengthens its utility in terms of nullifying projectiles and slight pressure relief, giving it a little more of a niche over DTilt.

- Rapid Jab hitbox sizes increased and knockback adjusted to link more reliably. Rapid Jab Finisher damage increased from 2 to 4%. Active frames increased from 1 to 3. KBG increased from 100 to 120:
Currently like many jab loops Mewtwo's is rather unreliable even without taking SDI into account. This serves to make it both more reliable and rewarding as it now serves more of a purpose combined with his jab 1 buffs, allowing this move to potentially secure high percent kills as well (later than Rosa's jab though).

- FTilt FAF reduced from 36 to 32. Damage increased from 10/9/8 to 11/10/9. BKB increased from 20 to 32:
This is a candidate for Mewtwo's worst move as it stands. It's slightly lacking in just about every area barring range. There's no real threat to this move because it's slower, less rewarding and less safe than DTilt. These changes make the move more threatening in a number of ways, most notably it gives Mewtwo relatively fast ground kill option at late percents. For reference sweetspot FTilt is a little weaker in terms of knockback than Zard's sweetspot FTilt but is notably safer at a respectable -6 on block (good for a move of its range).

- FSmash sweetspot BKB/KBG increased from 21/85 to 30/95. Sourspot KBG increased from 90 to 100:
Being a glass cannon character, a few of Mewtwo's hardest hitting "cannon" elements don't quite hit hard enough. FSmash being one of them. Considering its slow startup and general lack of safety on block its knockback is rather underwhelming. This makes the sweetspot for this move a little stronger than Falcon's FSmash, giving him greater explosive power from hard punishes/reads.

- DSmash active frames increased from 2 to 4. Hitbox size made approximately 0.5 units larger and lowered very slightly:
I find it odd how this move, despite the nature of its aesthetic, doesn't actually hit below the ledge particularly well. Considering it would become both weaker and slower than FSmash post its KB buff, I think it could use a little more in terms of utility than just safety on block and whiff. If anything this helps this move become a little more intuitive.

- All Grab hitboxes increased by approximately 0.5 units:
Pretty self explanatory. In many instances Mewtwo's grab is susceptible to whiffing the opponent when it shouldn't. Simple really. A similar change was made to WFT too a little while back for what it's worth.

- Teleport adjusted overall to closer match Melee Teleport:
This is quite an interesting one. The main reason for this change is primarily to omit its funky momentum based issues but making the move match Melee Teleport brings about a few other things. The move was overall a little quicker in Melee (e.g. intangibility triggered frame 7 instead of 9) and aerial Teleport had significantly less landing lag allowing Mewtwo to ambiguously close the gap and create strong mindgames, adding a new layer to his offensive play and further assisting his ability to land.

---

That's mostly it tbh. The main objective behind this list is to remain true to his current design but allow him to get more off of his heavier commitments while spicing up a few things here and there. He's in a pretty good spot as it is and there's quite a bit of depth to him. Even the best Mewtwos have yet to fully optimise this character. There's a lot this character can do and he's designed to reward a player's overall awareness and fundamentals while punishing the player hard for poor decision making. These changes are designed to push the strong elements of him a little further.

just add "decrease DThrow Endlag from 27f to 17-12f (weight depended)" to this and it would be a goldmine

 

[420quickscoper]

just add "decrease DThrow Endlag from 27f to 17-12f (weight depended)" to this and it would be a goldmine

Not a good idea to give down throw really good combo potential - it would possibly nerf all of his other throws, seeming how he could do more damage with it and with a frame reduction like that he may be able to get kill confirms off of it. If Mewtwo gets a down throw combo, he should only be able to combo with it from around 0-30 or 0-40 percent. We shouldn't be making it as good as his down tilt.

 

[pikazz]

Not a good idea to give down throw really good combo potential - it would possibly nerf all of his other throws, seeming how he could do more damage with it and with a frame reduction like that he may be able to get kill confirms off of it. If Mewtwo gets a down throw combo, he should only be able to combo with it from around 0-30 or 0-40 percent. We shouldn't be making it as good as his down tilt.

at least so he can true combo up to like 0-50% while above 50% is a rock-paper-scissors scenario

 

[420quickscoper]

at least so he can true combo up to like 0-50% while above 50% is a rock-paper-scissors scenario

Nah, not 50. 40 is fine, and rock-paper-scissors is fine.

I doubt it'll happen, I bet the playtesters will screw it up and make it a down tilt.

 

[BlazGreen]

Not a good idea to give down throw really good combo potential - it would possibly nerf all of his other throws, seeming how he could do more damage with it and with a frame reduction like that he may be able to get kill confirms off of it. If Mewtwo gets a down throw combo, he should only be able to combo with it from around 0-30 or 0-40 percent. We shouldn't be making it as good as his down tilt.

U-Throw and B-Throw would still have their uses for killing and positioning. The only throw that would really get hurt is his F-Throw which isn't a big deal. Several other characters have one throw that's just leaps and bounds better than the others and Mewtwo would still be more diverse than them.

 

[LRodC]

Do each one of f-throw's shadow balls count as a move in the staling queue? That could be its niche.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Do each one of f-throw's shadow balls count as a move in the staling queue? That could be its niche.

Nope. However, Fthrow only deals 9% maxis hat 90%+. In other words, use a different throw after 80ish.

 

[meleebrawler]

Do each one of f-throw's shadow balls count as a move in the staling queue? That could be its niche.

Only multihits that require input for each hit, like Dancing Blade, stale separately on each hit.

 

[LRodC]

Ah, that's disappointing. Regardless, it's nice to use for early percents and it's his best throw to use in FFA and teams.

So 1.1.4 lands in two days. Think we'll get anything after being buffed so majorly? I think other characters should be prioritized more at this point, but I definitely wouldn't complain about any buffs that come our way.

 

[Deleted member]

Ah, that's disappointing. Regardless, it's nice to use for early percents and it's his best throw to use in FFA and teams.

So 1.1.4 lands in two days. Think we'll get anything after being buffed so majorly? I think other characters should be prioritized more at this point, but I definitely wouldn't complain about any buffs that come our way.

My guess is probably further hitbox rearrangements or damage/KB buffs across the board. Hoping for an increase in grab range or frame data buffs, but no other character has had that happen to them yet. I wish ftilt was faster but I doubt they'll touch the move.

 

[LRodC]

My guess is probably further hitbox rearrangements or damage/KB buffs across the board. Hoping for an increase in grab range or frame data buffs, but no other character has had that happen to them yet. I wish ftilt was faster but I doubt they'll touch the move.

Well that was interesting. Wasn't expecting the site to be overrun by so called "Nigerian Hackers".

Actually, Wii Fit Trainer got a grab range buff a while back along with her other stuff. Greninja's side tilt also got a speed increase since it was in the same situation as Mewtwo's (situational/useless and a little too slow). I think the only thing they didn't change so far were hurtbox sizes, weights (could be wrong), jump squats, and other miscellaneous stuff that's more cosmetic than anything. Anything's fair game, especially after we saw attribute changes last time.

Still a good idea to not get too excited though just in case.