List of things to buff Mewtwo

[meleebrawler]

Yes, Uair and Utilt should at least match the animation.

Did you know Kirby's uair doesn't match the animation either?

Hitboxes not matching animations is a pretty universal problem in Smash 4 with the fancy trails that weren't present in past games, especially on the bicycle kicks. Go on, see how many of those actually hit below the user.

 

[Smashifer]

I actually don't want Dthrow to change. It's his second most useful throw, setting up for platform Usmashes and generally good positioning, and making it a combo throw would just homogenize him.

Well, what if they keep everything about dthrow the way it is now but allow us to act out of it quicker/have more hitstun? Because if it would, then it'd still be able to set up for platform usmashes while also being able to combo if platforms aren't available. I dunno if that's how it'd work, but it's just a thought.

 

[Aninymouse]

RayNoire @420quickscoper

Mewtwo already is viable. Blue, Mew², and Gibus are all winning tournaments or placing in top 5 with Mewtwo. What a ridiculous thing to say... "maybe Mewtwo will be viable."

Yes, I'd love Bair, Uair, and Utilt to have better hitboxes. Sure, I want a better grab box! A faster jab or Nair would be fantastic. But if none of that ever happens, we already have skilled players winning with Mewtwo. Granted, these are local tournaments, but still.

 

[RayNoire]

RayNoire @420quickscoper

Mewtwo already is viable. Blue, Mew², and Gibus are all winning tournaments or placing in top 5 with Mewtwo. What a ridiculous thing to say... "maybe Mewtwo will be viable."

Yes, I'd love Bair, Uair, and Utilt to have better hitboxes. Sure, I want a better grab box! A faster jab or Nair would be fantastic. But if none of that ever happens, we already have skilled players winning with Mewtwo. Granted, these are local tournaments, but still.

This is true for every single character in the game. A Zelda just won a tournament in WI that was actually fairly stacked (about half our PR was there). But very few people would say Sm4sh is balanced enough.

The local level is, and has always been, largely irrelevant to viability.

 

[Aninymouse]

This is true for every single character in the game. A Zelda just won a tournament in WI that was actually fairly stacked (about half our PR was there). But very few people would say Sm4sh is balanced enough.

The local level is, and has always been, largely irrelevant to viability.

Well, I'm sorry that you're not impressed. I have been, but maybe I'm just overly optimistic? Who can say?

I won't argue with you. I think local results do matter, but if you don't, we don't have long to wait until Genesis 3.

The way I see it is, when guys like ESAM (a top 1% player) go to locals (in his case, Florida), people still pay close attention to who is able to best him, and with what character. Likewise, if ESAM destroys somebody with a character thought to be good against Pikachu, people will take notice.

Case in point: Leo beating Mr. R at the local in Mexico was the singular event that changed most people's minds about Meta Knight. These days, most people place Meta Knight within the top 15 characters in the game, which wasn't the case before Leo shook people up.

Hype's a fickle thing. You can't force it. Eventually, Mewtwo's gonna do something to blow people's minds. I'm already convinced, but... for those that aren't, I'm betting you won't have to wait long.

 

[RayNoire]

I know I seem negative a lot, but hear me out.

"Viability" is kind of a crappy term because it evokes a lot of different things to different people. And to a lot of people, being "non-viable" is essentially a death sentence, and no one wants to believe their character has no chance at all.

I don't think Mewtwo is even close to being viable right now. I also don't think it's impossible, or even improbable in the long run, that a Mewtwo will place highly at a national or major. After all, Jonny Westside just made top 8 of a notable SoCal tournament with the inarguably non-viable Samus. What I mean when I say "non-viable" is that this character has to outplay their opponent by a considerably greater amount to win than the reverse, in most cases.

The DK matchup is a really good example of this. A lot of times in this MU you can be winning every exchange and dominating the neutral, only to have DK live to 140, grab you at 40 (!!!) and Ding Dong you for the kill. It's not like we're Sheik and can just build percent like it's nothing--our frame data is about the same as DK's, we have virtually no disjoint to protect us from trading, and we get outranged. It is possibly the worst MU in the game; it's at least worse than Rosalina v Ness (and 1.13 Bowser might be even harder!)

So just get a secondary for DK, right? Seems easy enough--until you realize that your secondary does better against Fox, too. And ZSS. And Mario. And Yoshi. And MK. And soon you're using your secondary more than your main. Eventually you might realize that even Mewtwo's best MUs can be handled much easier with other characters.

There's another good definition of "non-viable" here, and it's tough to argue. If your sole concern is winning, there is no reason to pick this character.

Character loyalists will always exist. I mained Mewtwo in Melee and watched videos of Taj and I thought then like you do now watching Mew^2. "This character can't be that bad, he's just underrated."

He was that bad.

And you know what? At release, Sm4sh Mewtwo might've been even worse. M2K thought so, as did I. We're fortunate that we have patches now, but with patches comes increased expectations that obvious problems get fixed and that the gaps between the viable and the non-viable get shorter. Because although being non-viable isn't a death sentence and never really was, it still sucks.

We've got (at least, but also most likely) one more patch. Let's make the most of it and raise awareness about what Mewtwo still needs. If not to become viable, then at least to make it a little easier for us character loyalists to beat the odds.

 

[Aninymouse]

I know I seem negative a lot, but hear me out.

"Viability" is kind of a crappy term because it evokes a lot of different things to different people. And to a lot of people, being "non-viable" is essentially a death sentence, and no one wants to believe their character has no chance at all.

I don't think Mewtwo is even close to being viable right now. I also don't think it's impossible, or even improbable in the long run, that a Mewtwo will place highly at a national or major. After all, Jonny Westside just made top 8 of a notable SoCal tournament with the inarguably non-viable Samus. What I mean when I say "non-viable" is that this character has to outplay their opponent by a considerably greater amount to win than the reverse, in most cases.

The DK matchup is a really good example of this. A lot of times in this MU you can be winning every exchange and dominating the neutral, only to have DK live to 140, grab you at 40 (!!!) and Ding Dong you for the kill. It's not like we're Sheik and can just build percent like it's nothing--our frame data is about the same as DK's, we have virtually no disjoint to protect us from trading, and we get outranged. It is possibly the worst MU in the game; it's at least worse than Rosalina v Ness (and 1.13 Bowser might be even harder!)

So just get a secondary for DK, right? Seems easy enough--until you realize that your secondary does better against Fox, too. And ZSS. And Mario. And Yoshi. And MK. And soon you're using your secondary more than your main. Eventually you might realize that even Mewtwo's best MUs can be handled much easier with other characters.

There's another good definition of "non-viable" here, and it's tough to argue. If your sole concern is winning, there is no reason to pick this character.

Character loyalists will always exist. I mained Mewtwo in Melee and watched videos of Taj and I thought then like you do now watching Mew^2. "This character can't be that bad, he's just underrated."

He was that bad.

And you know what? At release, Sm4sh Mewtwo might've been even worse. M2K thought so, as did I. We're fortunate that we have patches now, but with patches comes increased expectations that obvious problems get fixed and that the gaps between the viable and the non-viable get shorter. Because although being non-viable isn't a death sentence and never really was, it still sucks.

We've got (at least, but also most likely) one more patch. Let's make the most of it and raise awareness about what Mewtwo still needs. If not to become viable, then at least to make it a little easier for us character loyalists to beat the odds.

Well, you certainly made your case well.

Trust me, I'm not against buffing Mewtwo! Don't get me wrong! Make Mewtwo S tier, I say. I'm all for it!

It's just... I dunno. I'm still not as pessimistic. Like, you're probably right... Right now, I'd say Mewtwo goes 50:50 with most of the cast. DK? That one might be bad. Bowser? I was leaning towards slightly bad, but I think it's manageable. Even Shiek isn't a complete shut-out. ZSS might be the worst Mewtwo matchup, perhaps... I bet that's pretty horrendous. I've never seen that matchup play out in tournament.

So, even if I'm right (and I might not be), a character that goes close to 50:50 with the whole cast isn't that great. Obviously, Mario, Rosalina, ZSS, Ryu and Shiek have better matchups, but... y'know, to me, Smash was never about winning no matter what. ZSS and Shiek have playstyles that I just don't enjoy or do well with. Mario's okay, but I'd never seriously main Mario. I'd main Rosalina or Ryu, actually, but both have a much steeper learning curve than Mewtwo. But why those two? Because I like those characters.

Taj was kinda my hero in Melee, too. Germ too! Germ was the only guy to ever make Melee Link look impressive.

There's a reason I stopped watching Melee last year: I just don't give a crap about most of the top characters, and the dated graphics don't help. Melee's old and tired. I don't play it anymore, and I just don't watch it anymore, either. I used to root for M2K and Hungrybox, and I still do, kinda, but I don't watch them play much.

If Smash 4 ever got to the Melee metagame's level of stabilization and centralization, where about 7 characters (give or take) rule the game, and all you saw were those 7 outside of pools... I couldn't put up with that for long unless I had someone to root for. I like Rosa and Ryu, but I'm not sure I like them that much.

I play Mewtwo, Ike, and DK because I love those characters. Pretty much all my favorite Smash 4 players main those, too. To me, having fun and doing well with characters I love is the best part of Smash. When the dust settles and the final patch is downloaded, that isn't going to change.

I'm too poor and my car's too dilapidated to attend tournaments, so you can imagine my outlook on the game isn't based on winning at any cost so much as optimizing what I have to work with.

By all means, I am for all the buffs I can get for my favorite characters. Right now, Ike and DK are sitting pretty in the high B/low A tier range, and I'm content with them. I don't know where Mewtwo is. Part of me believes he's in the same high B/low A tier range, but even so, there are clearly still hitboxes on Mewtwo that have yet to be fixed and other issues that should be addressed.

All I'm saying is, if Sakurai and team ignored us and left Mewtwo in his current state, I wouldn't be furious. Disappointed, but not without optimism. At least they gave Mewtwo a fighting chance.

Bring on the buffs and fixes though, I say.

 

[Ximlee]

I think he should be able to combo more reliably into his throws

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I've felt like Mewtwo wasn't so bad as is. Outside of his glaring weaknesses, like weight and occasionally weird hitboxes, I don't think there's much else Sakurai can do to fix him without doing a complete overhaul on his entire moveset.

 

[MewSquared]

I know I seem negative a lot, but hear me out.

"Viability" is kind of a crappy term because it evokes a lot of different things to different people. And to a lot of people, being "non-viable" is essentially a death sentence, and no one wants to believe their character has no chance at all.

I don't think Mewtwo is even close to being viable right now. I also don't think it's impossible, or even improbable in the long run, that a Mewtwo will place highly at a national or major. After all, Jonny Westside just made top 8 of a notable SoCal tournament with the inarguably non-viable Samus. What I mean when I say "non-viable" is that this character has to outplay their opponent by a considerably greater amount to win than the reverse, in most cases.

The DK matchup is a really good example of this. A lot of times in this MU you can be winning every exchange and dominating the neutral, only to have DK live to 140, grab you at 40 (!!!) and Ding Dong you for the kill. It's not like we're Sheik and can just build percent like it's nothing--our frame data is about the same as DK's, we have virtually no disjoint to protect us from trading, and we get outranged. It is possibly the worst MU in the game; it's at least worse than Rosalina v Ness (and 1.13 Bowser might be even harder!)

So just get a secondary for DK, right? Seems easy enough--until you realize that your secondary does better against Fox, too. And ZSS. And Mario. And Yoshi. And MK. And soon you're using your secondary more than your main. Eventually you might realize that even Mewtwo's best MUs can be handled much easier with other characters.

There's another good definition of "non-viable" here, and it's tough to argue. If your sole concern is winning, there is no reason to pick this character.

Character loyalists will always exist. I mained Mewtwo in Melee and watched videos of Taj and I thought then like you do now watching Mew^2. "This character can't be that bad, he's just underrated."

He was that bad.

And you know what? At release, Sm4sh Mewtwo might've been even worse. M2K thought so, as did I. We're fortunate that we have patches now, but with patches comes increased expectations that obvious problems get fixed and that the gaps between the viable and the non-viable get shorter. Because although being non-viable isn't a death sentence and never really was, it still sucks.

We've got (at least, but also most likely) one more patch. Let's make the most of it and raise awareness about what Mewtwo still needs. If not to become viable, then at least to make it a little easier for us character loyalists to beat the odds.

I definitely understand your point, and I think what you said makes plenty of sense and is a fairly accurate representation of what viability truly is. I haven't seen much of your play, but I've heard your name been thrown around before, and with all those people running around speaking opinions without legitimate facts to back up their claims, you are one of the few people who retains the right to speak over the subject of Mewtwo's viability.

Me personally, I have to disagree with you. Before the recent buffs I still believed Mewtwo was viable to use within the highest level of competitive play, and even post patch he was strengthened considerably, I still don't think he is any more viable now than what he was before because I believe he has been viable from the beginning. The difference between playing Mewtwo and playing a top tier is the difficulty level that comes with playing any mid tier. You get significantly less room for mistakes, and you have to consistently play on point, as well as the natural difficulty of mastering a mid tier character knowing that you have to perfectly implicate their strengths while fight to cover up their weaknesses. I believe people are just too afraid to step into a lower tiered character and devote and bring the best out of them when they can find a much easier, safer haven within the top tiers. Where we are now, Smash 4 is an incredibly balanced game, and in a few years I don't think the meta will look anything like it does today. As this game continues to grow exponentially, more and more players are joining the scene, and it's only a matter of time before incredibly strong players begin devoting and mastering mid tier characters and showing the world how much potential each character has, all while developing the meta.

I won't deny it, I am a character loyalist. I've been playing Mewtwo since I was a child playing Melee, and there is no Nintendo character or even Video Game character I like more than Mewtwo, but I would never lie to the public and delude myself in saying Mewtwo is good if he truly was bad, or if I thought he was bad. I wholeheartedly believe in this character, and I intend to show exactly where I think Mewtwo stands on the world stage. I especially believe there are matchups that Mewtwo handles flawlessly and can even be used as a solid secondary for certain character mains, although this is discussion for another day.

The way you described viability is a very good way of putting it. I don't disagree with how you view the relationship between a top/high tier character and a mid/bottom tier one. I don't know if I am unconsciously biased towards Mewtwo, or just plain right crazy, but that's where I stand in Mewtwo's viability.

Funny, we both seem to be pretty skilled and well known Mewtwo players, but have a pretty different idea on the character. I think it'll be interesting to see where we end up in our competitive careers.

 

[Amiracle]

His down b could use more more horizontal and vertical range. Players are either too short or just a millimeter too far

I also think this move should have more aerial knock back.
Mewtwos side b should flip opponents around like marios cape

 

[Garo]

For me, Mewtwo's biggest problems post-patch are the grab range and the Teleport bouncing off some stages (Omega Boxing Ring and Bridge of Eldin come to mind). Otherwise he seems fine. However, I'm reading that some of his hitboxes are still wonky. What might those be? IIRC, many of his tail moves received a buff in hitbox size.

 

[meleebrawler]

For me, Mewtwo's biggest problems post-patch are the grab range and the Teleport bouncing off some stages (Omega Boxing Ring and Bridge of Eldin come to mind). Otherwise he seems fine. However, I'm reading that some of his hitboxes are still wonky. What might those be? IIRC, many of his tail moves received a buff in hitbox size.

People are just salty that they can't use utilt like DK's to clear out anybody standing near them, or use short-hop bairs to wall ground opponents.

 

[Aninymouse]

For me, Mewtwo's biggest problems post-patch are the grab range and the Teleport bouncing off some stages (Omega Boxing Ring and Bridge of Eldin come to mind). Otherwise he seems fine. However, I'm reading that some of his hitboxes are still wonky. What might those be? IIRC, many of his tail moves received a buff in hitbox size.

A grab range buff would be much appreciated...

As for hitboxes, the animations for Utilt and Uair don't match hitboxes. People can have Mewtwo's tail pass right through them and not get hit, at certain angles.

If they want to keep the hitboxes the same and not enlarge them, then at least change the animation to match a bit better.

Think about pre-patch Smash 4 Meta Knight: his sword would visually hit people but no hitbox would be where the animation was. They buffed a few of Meta Knight's hitboxes, but in the end they mostly tightened up his animations instead. Now, you pretty much hit when you ought to hit. That's what I'd like for Mewtwo's tail.

Make sense?

 

[godogod]

The way you described viability is a very good way of putting it. I don't disagree with how you view the relationship between a top/high tier character and a mid/bottom tier one. I don't know if I am unconsciously biased towards Mewtwo, or just plain right crazy, but that's where I stand in Mewtwo's viability.

Funny, we both seem to be pretty skilled and well known Mewtwo players, but have a pretty different idea on the character. I think it'll be interesting to see where we end up in our competitive careers.

Regardless of how viable you think Mewtwo is,you think he should get some buffs? You don't think some of his moves have fundamental issues that are situational at best to use, or even borderline useless?

Also, How do you feel about the reddit community's placement of Mewtwo? Yeah I know its reddit.

People are just salty that they can't use utilt like DK's to clear out anybody standing near them, or use short-hop bairs to wall ground opponents.

I can't believe up air got some patch, but this move didn't. The animations are very misleading
You have to be super close or it will go right through, and it rarely if ever hits opponents behind you. At the very least, I think the hitbox should increase horizontally. If it was a tad bit faster, it would be nice too. I know we've lived for it all these months, but it doesn't feel right that Mewtwo is completely open from the back. Up tilt being able to hit rollers(and just people behidn him)would be nice honestly. Mewtwo's down smash hitbox extending to hit behind him too (working like Lucas) would be nice as well. /:

 

[Aninymouse]

Uair and Utilt should absolutely be fixed. They definitely need better horizontal reach to match the animation.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Uair is fixed. The animation matches the hitbox, except not the exact timing of the hitbox. It takes a while to learn, but it is simply a timing thing. Utilt is weird. I might try to do something on that. Maybe a spacing section in the guide.

 

[Virum]

The thing with Mewtwo's hitboxes on moves like UAir/BAir etc is that the problem is the graphic. The hitboxes are properly mapped to the tail, and they come out at times which make sense and give them the necessary utility (his hitboxes on UAir and BAir are actually notably better than they were in Melee) however their graphical trails indicate otherwise and are placed in positions that extend beyond where the actual hitboxes occur.

 

[Aninymouse]

Okay. Well, if the problem is purely graphical, they could easily do a graphical fix.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Things I would like/love to see.

Intagibility on all tail attacks.
Faster utilt
Ftilt having kill power.

 

[LRodC]

Things I would like/love to see.

Intagibility on all tail attacks.
Faster utilt
Ftilt having kill power.

The tail attacks already have intangibility. As for the others, I think something definitely has to change with them. Up tilt's hitbox bothers me since it looks like it should be much larger than it actually is. And as for side tilt, I would prefer a small speed boost over kill power as Mewtwo has plenty of kill moves. I'd even take a slight power reduction if it meant making it quicker, similar to Ike's. It could be a nice longer range and more powerful spacing move along with d-tilt but without the combo potential. At the moment it's just kind of outclassed except for pivot functionality and situational jab resets.

I think the animation for up air should also be fixed up a little bit. The hitbox is fine now, but the animation needs to be more accurate to it.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Can we just end this now? Mewtwo doesn't need buffs. That's all.

On the contrary, Mewtwo could actually use a buff for its grabs, since its current grab range doesn't go low enough to grab the shorter characters who are just stationary. And of course, the dash grab needs work too.

 

[meleebrawler]

On the contrary, Mewtwo could actually use a buff for its grabs, since its current grab range doesn't go low enough to grab the shorter characters who are just stationary. And of course, the dash grab needs work too.

I dunno... having a poor dash grab seems to be a trend if you're fast but not pure rushdown like Falcon and/or your other grabs are decent (Palutena, Lucas, Roy). Then there's Greninja who's the opposite, bad standing grab but great dash grab. Clearly meant to highlight Greninja's mobility.

Because Mewtwo is rarely one to dash into a fight unless he sees an opening, a poor dash grab isn't that detrimental. His standing already has decent horizontal range (not to mention confusion), just fix the vertical and people will be happy.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I dunno... having a poor dash grab seems to be a trend if you're fast but not pure rushdown like Falcon and/or your other grabs are decent (Palutena, Lucas, Roy). Then there's Greninja who's the opposite, bad standing grab but great dash grab. Clearly meant to highlight Greninja's mobility.

Because Mewtwo is rarely one to dash into a fight unless he sees an opening, a poor dash grab isn't that detrimental. His standing already has decent horizontal range (not to mention confusion), just fix the vertical and people will be happy.

I guess I'm just being biased about the grab range, because of my constant grabbing habits with Mewtwo. I feel that making Mewtwo's grab range better could help it utilize its grab game more efficiently (and potentially help it excel better in the competitive scene as well); it sucks to see your grab whiff because you misjudged the range of your fighter's grab.

Basically, my grab usage rate with Mewtwo is quite large when compared to most of the other fighters that I've used; even my grab usage rate with Rosalina and Dedede is typically lower than that of Mewtwo.

 

[meleebrawler]

I guess I'm just being biased about the grab range, because of my constant grabbing habits with Mewtwo. I feel that making Mewtwo's grab range better could help it utilize its grab game more efficiently (and potentially help it excel better in the competitive scene as well); it sucks to see your grab whiff because you misjudged the range of your fighter's grab.

Basically, my grab usage rate with Mewtwo is quite large when compared to most of the other fighters that I've used; even my grab usage rate with Rosalina and Dedede is typically lower than that of Mewtwo.

It occurs to me that we haven't really experimented with pivot grabs coupled with Mewtwo's new speed.

Still, grabbing is really a plan B for Mewtwo in the grand scheme of things. Doesn't get nearly as much out of them as he does with tilts, and most of his other moves can kill faster than the killing throws (but are still nice to have in reserve).

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The funny thing is, I don't really complain much about the grab ranges for the other fighters, since my grab usage rates with most of the cast is very low (most of which, I hardly ever do any dash grabs with). Sure, there are a few fighters where my grab usage rate is higher, but it's still nothing when compared to my grabbing habits with Mewtwo.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I also use grabs a lot with Mewtwo. F-Throw is a great way to rack up ensured damage as an early-game punish. Sometimes I don't trust myself enough to successfully Nair or tilt for a combo, so grabs are the way I can be most sure.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

The tail attacks already have intangibility. As for the others, I think something definitely has to change with them. Up tilt's hitbox bothers me since it looks like it should be much larger than it actually is. And as for side tilt, I would prefer a small speed boost over kill power as Mewtwo has plenty of kill moves. I'd even take a slight power reduction if it meant making it quicker, similar to Ike's. It could be a nice longer range and more powerful spacing move along with d-tilt but without the combo potential. At the moment it's just kind of outclassed except for pivot functionality and situational jab resets.

I think the animation for up air should also be fixed up a little bit. The hitbox is fine now, but the animation needs to be more accurate to it.

Source? Which tail attacks have intagibility? How many frames? Sorry but I don't see that info on kurkganehammer.

 

[Virum]

Source? Which tail attacks have intagibility? How many frames? Sorry but I don't see that info on kurkganehammer.

This isn't quite correct. What it is instead is that Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox along about 2/3 of it. Essentially it serves as a big disjoint on a lot of his tail attacks (which is why moves like DTilt and BAir are so hard to challenge).

Evidence+Approximation of Mewtwo's hurtbox

Spoiler

 

[Sonicninja115]

Source? Which tail attacks have intagibility? How many frames? Sorry but I don't see that info on kurkganehammer.

There is a thread about it. I have a link at the bottom of the guide if you don't want to sift through month old threads.

 

[RayNoire]

This isn't quite correct. What it is instead is that Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox along about 2/3 of it. Essentially it serves as a big disjoint on a lot of his tail attacks (which is why moves like DTilt and BAir are so hard to challenge).

Evidence+Approximation of Mewtwo's hurtbox

Spoiler

Not this again.

Spoiler

To be fair there's nothing wrong with his hurtbox in neutral, it's his disadvantage when he's in hitstun or tumble:

Then there's the certain attacks of Mewtwo:

Knee has a tiny hitbox so that does not play a part in why Mewtwo gets hit before the attack even physically connects. Even if it just barely physically connected, it would be the sourspot knee. Here it doesn't and it's still the sweetspot.

 

[Browny]

On the contrary, Mewtwo could actually use a buff for its grabs, since its current grab range doesn't go low enough to grab the shorter characters who are just stationary. And of course, the dash grab needs work too.

Mewtwo can grab stationary small characters, its only when they crouch like with pikachu, kirby and G&W

Theres a bunch of other characters cant grab those when they crouch either

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This isn't quite correct. What it is instead is that Mewtwo's tail doesn't have a hurtbox along about 2/3 of it. Essentially it serves as a big disjoint on a lot of his tail attacks (which is why moves like DTilt and BAir are so hard to challenge).

Evidence+Approximation of Mewtwo's hurtbox

Spoiler

I'll stick to the info on kurkganehammer sorry.

Sonicninja115 I read that thread already I don't pay it any mind. I'm not going to bother with that stuff. Show me hitbixes and hurtboxes produced by the game. Not someone's guesses.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo can grab stationary small characters, its only when they crouch like with pikachu, kirby and G&W

Theres a bunch of other characters cant grab those when they crouch either

If that's the case, then why doesn't anyone complain about the other characters with the same issue?

If they should buff Mewtwo's, then everyone else's should be buffed as well.

 

[Mr. B]

Since the recent buff patch I am pretty happy with Mewtwo.

I like the idea of having a Jab1 that comes out quickly, and I would like FTilt to come out a bit faster too, but I don't think that they are really necessary to make him more viable. Cutting down on DThrow endlag is probably the most likely and desirable thing to improve the character in a balanced way.

Things that I would like to REALLY like to see (but know will never happen) are:

- Dthrow to have a (weak?) meteor component for those times when you have grabbed an opponent over an edge. Why does a tailspank down, bounce them upwards off of thin air? This irks me.

- Disable to have transcendant hitbox. Its a gaze not a physical attack, and shouldn't be blocked by swords IMO. I would be willing to sacrifice up to a quarter of existing disable-stun time for this.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Not this again.

I'll stick to the info on kurkganehammer sorry.

Sonicninja115 I read that thread already I don't pay it any mind. I'm not going to bother with that stuff. Show me hitbixes and hurtboxes produced by the game. Not someone's guesses.

Interesting, so attacks make the hurtbox larger. does KH have an exact hitbox data thing?

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Interesting, so attacks make the hurtbox larger. does KH have an exact hitbox data thing?

No but they tell you which moves are intagible since I don't see any for mewtwo I assume that they're nkt intagible.

 

[Sonicninja115]

No but they tell you which moves are intagible since I don't see any for mewtwo I assume that they're nkt intagible.

Mewtwo's data isn't complete on KH. There are a couple of things missing, and I am not surprised that he didn't go into detail on the intangibility of the tail. The Knee in the gif above hits the base of Mewtwo's tail, where it is a hurtbox. Pics and stuff have shown that the entire tail isn't a hurtbox and the tail during an attack should be the same. However, I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the tail has a hurtbox during an attack, or at least more of the tail has a hurtbox.

Summary: The Tail in a neutral state is only 25% hurtbox, but during an attack it might be more.

 

[RayNoire]

Mewtwo's data isn't complete on KH. There are a couple of things missing, and I am not surprised that he didn't go into detail on the intangibility of the tail. The Knee in the gif above hits the base of Mewtwo's tail, where it is a hurtbox. Pics and stuff have shown that the entire tail isn't a hurtbox and the tail during an attack should be the same. However, I wouldn't be horribly surprised if the tail has a hurtbox during an attack, or at least more of the tail has a hurtbox.

Summary: The Tail in a neutral state is only 25% hurtbox, but during an attack it might be more.

The thing is, the knee sweetspot is not at the tip of the knee; it's closer to Falcon's body. The fact that he connected with the knee sweetspot means that not only does the hurtbox cover a greater area of the tail, but it even goes past the tail, as he's sweetspotting thin air.

From experience I know that the hurtbox also extends behind him when dashing, jumping, ledge rolling, and tech rolling. So Mewtwo may be alright when he's not moving, but that's about it, unfortunately.

 

[meleebrawler]

The thing is, the knee sweetspot is not at the tip of the knee; it's closer to Falcon's body. The fact that he connected with the knee sweetspot means that not only does the hurtbox cover a greater area of the tail, but it even goes past the tail, as he's sweetspotting thin air.

From experience I know that the hurtbox also extends behind him when dashing, jumping, ledge rolling, and tech rolling. So Mewtwo may be alright when he's not moving, but that's about it, unfortunately.

Or Mewtwo's tail moved into the sweetspot a split second after the picture was taken, and we didn't see it because of the hitstun reaction.

Pikachu's Quick Attack is the greatest example of this phenomenon, where connecting Pikachu's stretched out body makes it look like he was hit from a mile away.