List of things to buff Mewtwo

[LRodC]

So can we all agree that he needs:
-grab dash fixed and just grab against short characters need to being more reliable. The short character thing can be fixed by moving the hitbox down like what the devs did with WFT
-fix the sding with teleport(give teleport a bigger/more forgiving box to snap on to a ledge), though they might have to fix it for all the teleport moves. Less landing lag would be nice too.
-up tilt having a larger hitbox (like up air)so it can hit more reliably close to him(front and back)
-down throw following up to a combo. It needs some use. We got two throws that kill in different directions, and we got another throw that racks up damage. Even if down throw is only usable at low percents. What happend to down throw not leading to up smash like the trailer? Bummer

I still think he should get:
- melee weight back
-disable needs more range or faster start up.. Its incredibly difficult to pull it off in an actual competitive match. Something should be done about using it on air too.
-ftilt should have a shorter animation or faster start up.

I hope this is the last time I post my list. I've/we've been beating the dead horse, but Feb could be the very last balance patch, and that will be it. The devs are listening. We can agree to disagree on some specific ones, but there's no denying there's a few fundamental things that need fixing still for (up tilt, down throw, teleport, and disable to be reliable at least).

I mean, as for weight, I don't think it's a huge deal. Mewtwo's meant to be really evasive due to his great air dodge, his excellent speed in both the air and ground, and great ability to avoid juggles. If they had the choice to improve frame data on moves or improve his weight, I'd rather have the better frame data. Imagine what Mewtwo could do with a frame 2-3 jab for example or a quicker forward tilt. That would be a way better buff than weight, IMO. Melee Mewtwo needed the weight more than this Mewtwo. In the end, weight makes the character less risky, that's about it. Occasionally you die super early to an attack that would've killed someone else 10% later, but that's usually the result of me messing something up such as a landing, leaving myself open, or going autopilot. The better you get, the less issue weight becomes, I think. I would definitely appreciate if it got buffed just like I would for anything, but I don't think it would be the end of the world for his competitive viability if he never got a weight buff. I think he has other issues to tackle first and that this is incredibly overblown.

Dash grab being more reliable on small characters would definitely be an appreciated buff. Short grab range may be a balance decision due to his excellent grab game and mobility, so I'm not sure if that's intended or not. As long as it matches the animation.

Teleport bouncing is annoying, and I agree that it should get patched out. However, I don't think it's a terrible thing that affects Mewtwo's viability as much as it is annoying to keep it in mind. You have to watch out that you're not under any stage lips when you use it. If you're careful, it's a non issue a majority of the time. I died by teleport bouncing a lot earlier on, but it rarely if ever happens now that I got better at it. Not really arguing it, just saying it's not that bad.

Agreed with up tilt. Surprised it wasn't touched yet.

Down throw comboing would be nice to give it some identity given that his other throws are very good. I'd like a simple combo throw as a mix up if anything. I don't think it should be better than down tilt. It would be useful in scenarios where you could be like "okay, you shielded down tilt? Let me just grab you and get you into my second combo tool". I don't think it's a needed change necessarily and he can do without it just fine, but it would be cool to have. It might also be a conscious balance decision too since he already has a combo tool in d-tilt. If he were to have a combo throw though, I just hope it isn't something brain dead. (FYI, in the trailer, it didn't true combo either. The opponents just did nothing to make him look more powerful.)

Like I said before, I support f-tilt being buffed. However, it could receive a damage/knockback reduction to compensate like Ike's. (It could possibly do 8% damage)

I think disable is about as good as it's gonna get without being stupid or not making sense. You have to be really careful with how you balance moves like that. The most I'd support is it getting some knockback in the air. Otherwise, I think it's safe to keep it how it is at the moment. It's a fine tool for hard reads and a lot of the time, opponents don't see it coming or forget about it. If you make it faster, you could potentially have really dangerous and unavoidable kill setups with Disable, and Mewtwo would automatically go to top tier without question with a punish game that beats Zero Suit Samus. Gotta be careful with this one.

That's about it. I know you comment about the buffs you want all the time because you want Mewtwo to be a great character. However, you have to admit Mewtwo is way, way better than what he used to be and he has an actual identity now. You may agree or disagree with how things are with him still, but I don't think it's necessary to cry for buffs anymore in order to make us relevant. I think it's healthy for us to be optimistic for the metagame of the character. The board has been doing an excellent job with being heavily productive with Mewtwo's metagame and making up for lost time. It's much better than the Zelda boards who are extremely pessimistic, consistently trash their own character, and ask for buffs so much that they forget to work on metagame development. I think people are starting to see Mewtwo's upside now. I see heavy potential this character as well and I'm going to make the most of him because he's a really fun character to use (and he's Mewtwo, I mean come on).

 

[420quickscoper]

I mean, as for weight, I don't think it's a huge deal. Mewtwo's meant to be really evasive due to his great air dodge, his excellent speed in both the air and ground, and great ability to avoid juggles. If they had the choice to improve frame data on moves or improve his weight, I'd rather have the better frame data. Imagine what Mewtwo could do with a frame 2-3 jab for example or a quicker forward tilt. That would be a way better buff than weight, IMO. He needed the weight more than this Mewtwo. In the end, weight makes the character less risky, that's about it. Occasionally you die super early to an attack that would've killed someone else 10% earlier, but that's usually the result of me messing something up such as a landing, leaving myself open, or going autopilot. The better you get, the less issue weight becomes, I think. I would definitely appreciate if it got buffed just like I would for anything, but I don't think it would be the end of the world for his competitive viability if he never got a weight buff. I think he has other issues to tackle first and that this is incredibly overblown.

Dash grab being more reliable on small characters would definitely be an appreciated buff. Short grab range may be a balance decision due to his excellent grab game and mobility, so I'm not sure if that's intended or not. As long as it matches the animation.

Teleport bouncing is annoying, and I agree that it should get patched out. However, I don't think it's a terrible thing that affects Mewtwo's viability as much as it is annoying to keep it in mind. You have to watch out that you're not under any stage lips when you use it. If you're careful, it's a non issue a majority of the time. I died by teleport bouncing a lot earlier on, but it rarely if ever happens now that I got better at it. Not really arguing it, just saying it's not that bad.

Agreed with up tilt. Surprised it wasn't touched yet.

Down throw comboing would be nice to give it some identity given that his other throws are very good. I'd like a simple combo throw as a mix up if anything. I don't think it should be better than down tilt. It would be useful in scenarios where you could be like "okay, you shielded down tilt? Let me just grab you and get you into my second combo tool". I don't think it's a needed change necessarily and he can do without it just fine, but it would be cool to have. It might also be a conscious balance decision too since he already has a combo tool in d-tilt. If he were to have a combo throw though, I just hope it isn't something brain dead. (FYI, in the trailer, it didn't true combo either. The opponents just did nothing to make him look more powerful.)

Like I said before, I support f-tilt being buffed. However, it could receive a damage/knockback reduction to compensate like Ike's. (It could possibly do 8% damage)

I think disable is about as good as it's gonna get without being stupid or not making sense. You have to be really careful with how you balance moves like that. The most I'd support is it getting some knockback in the air. Otherwise, I think it's safe to keep it how it is at the moment. It's a fine tool for hard reads and a lot of the time, opponents don't see it coming or forget about it. If you make it faster, you could potentially have really dangerous and unavoidable kill setups with Disable, and Mewtwo would automatically go to top tier without question with a punish game that beats Zero Suit Samus. Gotta be careful with this one.

That's about it. I know you comment about the buffs you want all the time because you want Mewtwo to be a great character. However, you have to admit Mewtwo is way, way better than what he used to be and he has an actual identity now. You may agree or disagree with how things are with him still, but I don't think it's necessary to cry for buffs anymore in order to make us relevant. The board has been doing an excellent job with being heavily productive with Mewtwo's metagame and making up for lost time. I think people are starting to see his upside now as well. I see heavy potential this character as well and I'm going to make the most of him because he's a really fun character to use (and he's Mewtwo, I mean come on).

I'm pretty sure down throw will get patched in February. What else could've they wanted to do by changing the angle? Duh, they wanted to make it a down throw combo. I think.

So they might change the end lag. Boom, Mewtwo's a high tier. While I do think he's okay right now, making him go up to that spot will be very good, I'll say. At least we know Mewtwo's good right now.

 

[godogod]

Are you STILL wanting these buffs after telling you that we don't need it?

If you gave him melee weight, he wouldn't be a glass cannon anymore.
If you buffed Disable in almost any way, it would actually be incredibly broken. Imagine if it had more range when it already has the most range out of all Mewtwo's attacks outside of Shadow Ball. If you made it's frame data better, then it would be just, well, easy to get in general.
Idk what to say about tilt

Arguments about Mewtwo being a true glass cannon aside, You're saying a below average weight of 85 won't make a glass cannon, a glass cannon anymore? You make it sound like he's top tier and its some big sin that getting his melee weight back is abominable and would actually make him bro. Sure, You're a seasoned mewtwo player who can survive with mewtwo well above 100%, and dodge most smash attacks(not hard to to do in competitive play), but still doesn't take away the fact that his his low balloon weight of 72 is his biggest weakness, and getting a weight buff only helps him in the long run competitively vs someone who will outlast you by 10-20%, Its one thing if I'm asking for 95-100 weight(which is asking for way too much), but getting back his melee weight isn't asking for much at all. If he never got his weight nerfed, obviously nobody would have said anything about nerfing his weight after getting stronger knckback smash attacks and shadowball to compensate. Nobody complains about Roy, who got significantly faster, stronger, AND heavier. Not to mention 4rd best air speed, and a more horizontal recovery now. No roy fans are complaining. Only thing people are really complaining(people who face him)is his side smash. After being buffed in nearly every way, he's still b tier. We can just agree to disagree on this and leave it that.

Disable is pretty difficult to use in competitive matches. You can't spam it and its slower and has less priority than most dash attacks. Getting it with jab is just as difficult to land as itself imo. There is a a pretty distinguishable line between near useless and broken OP in competive play. There's an infinite amount of ways to fix this without it being stupidly broken or even as annoying as ZSS's paralyzer shot, which has more range, spammable, and near just as much stun time.. If not more range, or faster start up, I think it should do some shield damage, and be useful in the air at least(more knockback/damage or some stun).

Fixing disable is not in my top most priority list however. Up tilt, teleport, grab, down throw and weight are my biggest. Disable is an icing on a cake. It's great to land, but its more useless/situational to use than a counter move in competitive play.

 

[meleebrawler]

Arguments about Mewtwo being a true glass cannon aside, You're saying a below average weight of 85 won't make a glass cannon, a glass cannon anymore? You make it sound like he's top tier and its some big sin that getting his melee weight back is abominable and would actually make him bro. Sure, You're a seasoned mewtwo player who can survive with mewtwo well above 100%, and dodge most smash attacks(not hard to to do in competitive play), but still doesn't take away the fact that his his low balloon weight of 72 is his biggest weakness, and getting a weight buff only helps him in the long run competitively vs someone who will outlast you by 10-20%, Its one thing if I'm asking for 95-100 weight(which is asking for way too much), but getting back his melee weight isn't asking for much at all. If he never got his weight nerfed, obviously nobody would have said anything about nerfing his weight after getting stronger knckback smash attacks and shadowball to compensate. Nobody complains about Roy, who got significantly faster, stronger, AND heavier. Not to mention 4rd best air speed, and a more horizontal recovery now. No roy fans are complaining. Only thing people are really complaining(people who face him)is his side smash. After being buffed in nearly every way, he's still b tier. We can just agree to disagree on this and leave it that.

Disable is pretty difficult to use in competitive matches. You can't spam it and its slower and has less priority than most dash attacks. Getting it with jab is just as difficult to land as itself imo. There is a a pretty distinguishable line between near useless and broken OP in competive play. There's an infinite amount of ways to fix this without it being stupidly broken or even as annoying as ZSS's paralyzer shot, which has more range, spammable, and near just as much stun time.. If not more range, or faster start up, I think it should do some shield damage, and be useful in the air at least(more knockback/damage or some stun).

Fixing disable is not in my top most priority list however. Up tilt, teleport, grab, down throw and weight are my biggest. Disable is an icing on a cake. It's great to land, but its more useless/situational to use than a counter move in competitive play.

We don't ask for weight because at this point it's pretty clear the devs have absolutely no intention of doing so. If we did get more weight, we likely wouldn't have gotten the mobility and landing lag buffs, prompting a reclassification from glass cannon to "defensive powerhouse", like Zelda.

Of course Mewtwo would be more viable with weight, but so would literally anyone. It won't fundamentally change his matchups, and it might actually cause him to be comboed more.

Roy got the buffs he did because he failed to live up to Marth's counterpart status in Melee. Literally anything he could do, Marth did better, even if you got his sweetspots perfect. So for Smash 4 he got the specs he needed to pull off his risky-for-a-swordman playstyle. Now people have a hard time deciding which is better, which is how it should have been.

 

[420quickscoper]

We don't ask for weight because at this point it's pretty clear the devs have absolutely no intention of doing so. If we did get more weight, we likely wouldn't have gotten the mobility and landing lag buffs, prompting a reclassification from glass cannon to "defensive powerhouse", like Zelda.

Of course Mewtwo would be more viable with weight, but so would literally anyone. It won't fundamentally change his matchups, and it might actually cause him to be comboed more.

Roy got the buffs he did because he failed to live up to Marth's counterpart status in Melee. Literally anything he could do, Marth did better, even if you got his sweetspots perfect. So for Smash 4 he got the specs he needed to pull off his risky-for-a-swordman playstyle. Now people have a hard time deciding which is better, which is how it should have been.

Talking about Mewtwo getting combo'd - does Mewtwo really have that bad of a time being combo'd? I mean, I honestly just can't see it. I get combo'd as much as some other characters in the game.

I don't want to double post so I'll just tag you here. godogod

I think you have to realize that almost all Mewtwo's flaws, well, you can make them not as bad as they are.

Light weight? Get good with spacing. I remember on my first match with lightningrodc, he was really beating me out because he had great spacing and just didn't allow me to kill him.

That reminds me, I apparently have great spacing too.
I survive well over 100%, and you're still complaining?
It does excuse his light weight, to be honest.
As said before he has great evasion.
So why not use that for your advantage?
Don't allow yourself to get up smashed at 85% and die.
That's just pitiful.


Juggled? You're bad, Mewtwo doesn't get juggled.

The two main flaws he has, can be made better. I'm sure you can make a few other of his flaws better, but probably not his OOS game and hitboxes. Even then, I don't think Mewtwo's OOS is bad, just not very good.

 

[godogod]

We don't ask for weight because at this point it's pretty clear the devs have absolutely no intention of doing so. If we did get more weight, we likely wouldn't have gotten the mobility and landing lag buffs, prompting a reclassification from glass cannon to "defensive powerhouse", like Zelda.

Of course Mewtwo would be more viable with weight, but so would literally anyone. It won't fundamentally change his matchups, and it might actually cause him to be comboed more.

Roy got the buffs he did because he failed to live up to Marth's counterpart status in Melee. Literally anything he could do, Marth did better, even if you got his sweetspots perfect. So for Smash 4 he got the specs he needed to pull off his risky-for-a-swordman playstyle. Now people have a hard time deciding which is better, which is how it should have been.

How can you speak for devs? We have no idea what will happen in the Feb patch. So many people here didn't think any character would get an attribute buff,but in the most recent patch, we actually got them. Dash speed, walking speed, fall speed, fast fall speed buffs. Actual attribute buffs. That should be more than enough proof that its possible. And even if its unlikely, the devs are listening. People here have asked for a speed buff and lower landing lag on aerials, and it actually happened. If enough people speak up, it could happen. It's a wasted opportunity to not speak up about it. Because once that opportunity next month is gone, its gone.
This isn't a matter of randomly giving a character a weight buff. It's Mewtwo. His weight should have never been nerfed in the first place. My point was that nobody got an awful attribute nerf like Mewtwo only to be replaced by something else and "balanced" when he clearly wasn't when he was first released in smash 4. What's wrong with getting some of the things that made him good in melee mixed with what he has now? So many characters from melee and brawl transitioning into this game got better in almost every way imaginable, but some got left in the dust. I don't think buffing him to melee weight will make him trapped in combos. For one he has his amazing phasing, and secondly 85 is still light weight, and he doesn't have a fast fall speed.

Again, you're trying to put some assumption as fact about devs intentions. Melee was a rushed mess. A good amount of the clone characters were bad, and a good portion of mewtwo's moves were unusable(jab, disable, and confusion). Roy is fan service, and they had more time with smash 4. But this doesn't necessarely have anything to do with him being inferior to Marth in nearly every way in Melee, as the reason for why he got buffed. For all we know, it could be FE bias. And even if he did, there's no reason not to buff characters like Mewtwo and Dr Mario.

 

[420quickscoper]

How can you speak for devs? We have no idea what will happen in the Feb patch. So many people here didn't think any character would get an attribute buff,but in the most recent patch, we actually got them. Dash speed, walking speed, fall speed, fast fall speed buffs. Actual attribute buffs. That should be more than enough proof that its possible. And even if its unlikely, the devs are listening. People here have asked for a speed buff and lower landing lag on aerials, and it actually happened. If enough people speak up, it could happen. It's a wasted opportunity to not speak up about it. Because once that opportunity next month is gone, its gone.
This isn't a matter of randomly giving a character a weight buff. It's Mewtwo. His weight should have never been nerfed in the first place. My point was that nobody got an awful attribute nerf like Mewtwo only to be replaced by something else and "balanced" when he clearly wasn't when he was first released in smash 4. So many characters from melee and brawl transitioning into this game got better in almost every way imaginable, but some got left in the dust. I don't think buffing him to melee weight will make him trapped in combos. For one he has his amazing phasing, and secondly 85 is still light weight, and he doesn't have a fast fall speed.

Again, you're trying to put some assumption as fact about devs intentions. Melee was a rushed mess. A good amount of the clone characters were bad, and a good portion of mewtwo's moves were unusable(jab, disable, and confusion). Roy is fan service, and they had more time with smash 4. But this doesn't necessarely have anything to do with him being inferior to Marth in nearly every way in Melee, as the reason for why he got buffed. For all we know, it could be FE bias. And even if he did, there's no reason not to buff characters like Mewtwo and Dr Mario.

So you're saying Mewtwo's light weight is a huge flaw? I honestly don't care if it was nerfed.

Mewtwo was made to be a glass cannon. But a different one. A one with an entire backpack and cape of guns and tools.

 

[godogod]

That's one of his biggest flaws for sure, if not the single biggest. Being tall, floaty and low air acceleration isn't the best combination. 85 is a good weight where it won't be significant enough that it would be total combo bait. Rosalina has the tall and floaty attirbutes shared with Mewtwo, but she has the excuse of having a meat shield that boosts her offensive range, and defense at least. That's his weakeest link that will bring him down in the end. You won't last as long as your light midweight midweight opponents who will outlive you 10-30%.

I certanly think Mewtwo is viable against mid tier characters if you practice long enough, but against top tiers he's gonna get bodied. Even then you'd have to be much more skilled than your opponnet.

 

[420quickscoper]

That's one of his biggest flaws for sure, if not the single biggest. Being tall and floaty isn't the best combination. Rosalina has the excuse of having a meast shield that boosts her offense and defense. You can work around it to a degree, but you won't last as long as your opponents who will outlive you 10-20%.

You can't just work it around to a degree. You work it around to the fullest to the point where you live until 120%.
It doesn't matter if they outlive you, Mewtwo is one of the best killers around!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Personally, I find Mewtwo's low weight to be very disturbing. Mewtwo really shouldn't be lighter than Pikachu, and to be lighter than even Squirtle, that's just adding insult to injury.

 

[420quickscoper]

Personally, I find Mewtwo's low weight to be very disturbing. Mewtwo really shouldn't be lighter than Pikachu, and to be lighter than even Squirtle, that's just adding insult to injury.

Mewtwo's weight is the same reason Rosalina has her low weight. I find it disturbing too, but there's not really anything we can do about it.

Just be evasive.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Mewtwo's weight is the same reason Rosalina has her low weight. I find it disturbing too, but there's not really anything we can do about it.

Just be evasive.

The low weight problem made me think about the Anchor Jump equipment, in hopes of trying to improve Mewtwo's endurance against early Star KOs. Of course, the falling speed increase does have its flaws that can't be ignored.

 

[420quickscoper]

The low weight problem made me think about the Anchor Jump equipment, in hopes of trying to improve Mewtwo's endurance against early Star KOs. Of course, the falling speed increase does have its flaws that can't be ignored.

I don't think low weight is very much of a problem to be honest - I always live from 100% to 120% usually against players that are my skill level. Just be good at spacing with Mewtwo and nothing can touch you.

 

[godogod]

Mewtwo's weight is the same reason Rosalina has her low weight. I find it disturbing too, but there's not really anything we can do about it.

Just be evasive.

Except Rosalina has twice the range and a meat shield that protects her.

Try to be evasive and not get smashed? Lol That's like saying try not to die. Your opponent will try and be just as evasive as you are.You will get hit and you will die. Everyone gets punished. If you are down a stock cause you die earlier, you have to work harder to get back on the same plane.

 

[420quickscoper]

Except Rosalina has twice the range and a meat shield that protects her.

Try to be evasive and not get smashed? Lol That's like saying try not to die. Your opponent will try and be just as evasive as you are.You will get hit and you will die. Everyone gets punished. If you are down a stock cause you die earlier, you have to work harder to get back on the same plane.

...Forward air.

Forward air is THE key to taking a stock. I don't really know what to say to you, but people can't really punish forward air - it's completely safe on shield. Oh, yeah. It kills.

My opponent will TRY to be evasive as I am, but not with phasing on my side.

Mewtwo's weight does not need to be fixed. He is fine, it is one of his flaws, and you're trying to take away his flaws. That's not how you make a character.
Only if the flaw was unintended, and was a super major problem, which in this case for both statements it isn't...

So, Mewtwo's weight will stay.

I don't care what you say, it will NOT go up, so stop talking about it.

Gah, what am I saying?

...

Does Mewtwo really need any of the buffs you want AT ALL?!
The only things he needs are some hitbox fixes here and there, forward throw always hitting to 13%, and other things.

If I were to take one buff, I really don't know what'd it be.

 

[meleebrawler]

Personally, I find Mewtwo's low weight to be very disturbing. Mewtwo really shouldn't be lighter than Pikachu, and to be lighter than even Squirtle, that's just adding insult to injury.

Isn't Yoshi portrayed as lighter than Mario in Mario Kart? Also Olimar is giant, and so are Pikachu and Squirtle. Not to mention kids Ness and Lucas being heavier than almost the entire adult female cast.

Yeah, Smash isn't really the paragon of accuracy in terms of proportions.

For Mewtwo and Rosalina the common justification is that their psychic and gravity powers used for movement decrease their actual mass. So can we please stop comparing Smash Mewtwo to the Pokedex?

The low weight problem made me think about the Anchor Jump equipment, in hopes of trying to improve Mewtwo's endurance against early Star KOs. Of course, the falling speed increase does have its flaws that can't be ignored.

Yeah, like ruining Mewtwo's offstage game. Not worth trying to turn Mewtwo into Fox.

 

[420quickscoper]

This may seem a bit rude, but whatever.

Has anyone fought godogod yet? Because, I don't think below average Mewtwo players, or just average Mewtwo players can't really say much when it comes to suggesting buffs.

What I'm saying is that Mewtwo is pretty much as good as you want him to be.

Sorry if I was rude, and I'm probably wrong about this, godogod.

 

[LRodC]

Except Rosalina has twice the range and a meat shield that protects her.

Try to be evasive and not get smashed? Lol That's like saying try not to die. Your opponent will try and be just as evasive as you are.You will get hit and you will die. Everyone gets punished. If you are down a stock cause you die earlier, you have to work harder to get back on the same plane.

Rosalina also has worse mobility in both the ground and air and a taller frame (3rd tallest, compared to Mewtwo being 17-19th, http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-20201775). Weight isn't necessarily the be all end all of competitive viability. There are plenty of low weight characters that are very good historically. Brawl Meta Knight is light. 64 Pikachu is light. Zero Suit Samus is light. Melee Jigglypuff is light. Melee Fox is light. Rosalina is light. These characters are all light and all are high or top tier. It's not the weight that's the problem, it's the tools you have to make up for it.

Isn't Yoshi portrayed as lighter than Mario in Mario Kart? Also Olimar is giant, and so are Pikachu and Squirtle. Not to mention kids Ness and Lucas being heavier than almost the entire adult female cast.

Yeah, Smash isn't really the paragon of accuracy in terms of proportions.

For Mewtwo and Rosalina the common justification is that their psychic and gravity powers used for movement decrease their actual mass. So can we please stop comparing Smash Mewtwo to the Pokedex?



Yeah, like ruining Mewtwo's offstage game. Not worth trying to turn Mewtwo into Fox.

To add to this, here's Mewtwo's Melee trophy:

Seems like it was a conscious balance decision from the beginning. It thematically makes no sense, but it is what it is. Now say they buffed him to another light weight value, say, Fox's at 79. That would barely be a difference maker in the long run. He'd still be pretty damn light anyway and be KOed early by moves that kill him early now. Him living an extra 5-10% longer is not going to be a major difference maker. It will make a difference for sure, but it's low on his priority list if even on it at all.

 

[Aninymouse]

Rosalina also has worse mobility in both the ground and air and a taller frame (3rd tallest, compared to Mewtwo being 17-19th, http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-20201775). Weight isn't necessarily the be all end all of competitive viability. There are plenty of low weight characters that are very good historically. Brawl Meta Knight is light. 64 Pikachu is light. Zero Suit Samus is light. Melee Jigglypuff is light. Melee Fox is light. Rosalina is light. These characters are all light and all are high or top tier. It's not the weight that's the problem, it's the tools you have to make up for it.

To add to this, here's Mewtwo's Melee trophy:

Seems like it was a conscious balance decision from the beginning. It thematically makes no sense, but it is what it is. Now say they buffed him to another light weight value, say, Fox's at 79. That would barely be a difference maker in the long run. He'd still be pretty damn light anyway and be KOed early by moves that kill him early now. Him living an extra 5-10% longer is not going to be a major difference maker. It will make a difference for sure, but it's low on his priority list if even on it at all.

Exactly.

Mewtwo doesn't need more weight so much as he could use some tweaks to some moves to make them better.

Make Mewtwo's offensive abilities good enough, and the low weight will matter less and less.

 

[godogod]

Rosalina also has worse mobility in both the ground and air and a taller frame (3rd tallest, compared to Mewtwo being 17-19th,http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-20201775). Weight isn't necessarily the be all end all of competitive viability. There are plenty of low weight characters that are very good historically. Brawl Meta Knight is light. 64 Pikachu is light. Zero Suit Samus is light. Melee Jigglypuff is light. Melee Fox is light. Rosalina is light. These characters are all light and all are high or top tier. It's not the weight that's the problem, it's the tools you have to make up for it.

Like I said for the third time.. Rosalina has a meat shield that absorbs 50 HP, and respawns every 13 seconds after its taken out. it's essentially a permanent shield that blocks attacks from one side of you. And Luma doubles her range. That luma buffs her defense considerly, so she can literally be lighter than jigglypuff but she'd still have much better defense than Mewtwo, because that luma absorbs all attacks from the front.

Mewtwo isn't very good compared to those low weight characters you mentioned. Those are an extreme comparison. There's a good reason why they are top tier and mewtwo isn't.Most of those light characters have zero lag in their moves, serious combo potential, and not many glaring weaknesses.

 

[LRodC]

Rosalina also has worse mobility in both the ground and air and a taller frame (3rd tallest, compared to Mewtwo being 17-19th,http://smashboards.com/threads/character-height-a-rough-start.402759/#post-20201775). Weight isn't necessarily the be all end all of competitive viability. There are plenty of low weight characters that are very good historically. Brawl Meta Knight is light. 64 Pikachu is light. Zero Suit Samus is light. Melee Jigglypuff is light. Melee Fox is light. Rosalina is light. These characters are all light and all are high or top tier. It's not the weight that's the problem, it's the tools you have to make up for it.

Like I said for the third time.. Rosalina has a meat shield that absorbs 50 HP, and respawns every 13 seconds after its taken out. it's essentially a permanent shield that blocks attacks from one side of you. And Luma doubles her range. That luma buffs her defense considerly, so she can literally be lighter than jigglypuff but she'd still have much better defense than Mewtwo, because that luma absorbs all attacks from the front.

Mewtwo isn't very good compared to those low weight characters you mentioned. Those are an extreme comparison. There's a good reason why they are top tier and mewtwo isn't.Most of those light characters have zero lag in their moves, serious combo potential, and not many glaring weaknesses.

So yeah, you're basically saying that Mewtwo does not have as much tools compared to these other characters. I think that's the important thing. It's fine to want more good qualities and buffs to actual options, I'd prefer that over putting so much focus on weight. That would just be a band aid solution and it wouldn't help him as much as other stuff he could get. Plus it's kind of his identity in this game.

Say the development team had a tradeoff for balance changes for Mewtwo but did not want to implement all of them. Instead, they would do tradeoffs with more/better options vs more weight.

Scenario one would have a more reliable teleport, a buffed weight of 85, and an improved grab in both speed and reliability.

Scenario two would be a more reliable teleport, a down throw that combos at low to medium percents, 3 frames off his jab, 3 frames off his side tilt, a faster back air, a faster and more reliable up tilt, and an improved grab in both speed and reliability. However, his weight would remain at 72.

Which one would you prefer, and which Mewtwo would be better? I'd personally say it's #2 easily despite the weight not getting buffed. Number one would probably be viable, but number two could potentially be so much better.

 

[Dark Phazon]

Except Rosalina has twice the range and a meat shield that protects her.

Try to be evasive and not get smashed? Lol That's like saying try not to die. Your opponent will try and be just as evasive as you are.You will get hit and you will die. Everyone gets punished. If you are down a stock cause you die earlier, you have to work harder to get back on the same plane.

You also forgot she has the most broken hitboxes in the game cant forget that one.

 

[HakuryuVision]

I really don't think the weight buff is needed. His grab-range getting improved and his teleport-bounce-offs being fixed is all i'd wish for, but i already apreciate the buffs we got with Cloud's release, and i'm more than content with how good Mewtwo is right now.

...of coure i wouldn't oppose any further buffs. : P

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

To add to this, here's Mewtwo's Melee trophy:

Seems like it was a conscious balance decision from the beginning. It thematically makes no sense, but it is what it is. Now say they buffed him to another light weight value, say, Fox's at 79. That would barely be a difference maker in the long run. He'd still be pretty damn light anyway and be KOed early by moves that kill him early now. Him living an extra 5-10% longer is not going to be a major difference maker. It will make a difference for sure, but it's low on his priority list if even on it at all.

That trophy never does mention Mewtwo's weight though. Flying far when struck could've also meant that its aerial attributes are on the floaty side, while its weight is actually heavy; Samus is heavy and floaty herself when you think about it.

Also, the funny thing about this dilemma is that although higher weight can help a fighter survive longer, even the heaviest fighters can get KO'd before hitting the 150% damage mark, if they're hit by a strong enough attack.

 

[Dark Phazon]

You also forgot she has the most broken hitboxes in the game cant forget that one.

LRodC true i would go with all the frame buffs and grab

Reason why in posting here is because mewtwo has become my 3rd main.

 

[LRodC]

That trophy never does mention Mewtwo's weight though. Flying far when struck could've also meant that its aerial attributes are on the floaty side, while its weight is actually heavy; Samus is heavy and floaty herself when you think about it.

Also, the funny thing about this dilemma is that although higher weight can help a fighter survive longer, even the heaviest fighters can get KO'd before hitting the 150% damage mark, if they're hit by a strong enough attack.

I don't really see how you can interpret it another way though. Weight has a direct influence on how far you're launched from attacks at certain percentages (and fall speed/gravity, but you know what I mean). For example, Jigglypuff will obviously fly further than Bowser would at any percentage. It's worded oddly, but it's essentially getting the point across that "this character is light and easy to KO". I'm actually surprised he weighed as much as he did in Melee with that trophy description since there are plenty of much lighter characters in Melee like G&W, Jigglypuff, and Pichu who are 60-55, values way lower than Smash 4 or Brawl.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I don't really see how you can interpret it another way though. Weight has a direct influence on how far you're launched from attacks at certain percentages (and fall speed/gravity, but you know what I mean). For example, Jigglypuff will obviously fly further than Bowser would at any percentage. It's worded oddly, but it's essentially getting the point across that "this character is light and easy to KO". I'm actually surprised he weighed as much as he did in Melee with that trophy description since there are plenty of much lighter characters in Melee like G&W, Jigglypuff, and Pichu who are 60-55, values way lower than Smash 4 or Brawl.

Jigglypuff falls slower than Bowser, so that makes sense. Fox, however, is a faster faller than Samus, so even though he's very light, Fox is more resilient to vertical knockback than Samus is.

Smash 4 Mewtwo's dilemma is that it falls slower AND is lighter than Fox, so its endurance against vertical knockback is worse. That can be mitigated somewhat by the Anchor Jump bonus effect, but this can also work against Mewtwo in that its aerial and off-stage performance would be hindered by the increased falling speed.

 

[LRodC]

Jigglypuff falls slower than Bowser, so that makes sense. Fox, however, is a faster faller than Samus, so even though he's very light, Fox is more resilient to vertical knockback than Samus is.

Smash 4 Mewtwo's dilemma is that it falls slower AND is lighter than Fox, so its endurance against vertical knockback is worse. That can be mitigated somewhat by the Anchor Jump bonus effect, but this can also work against Mewtwo in that its aerial and off-stage performance would be hindered by the increased falling speed.

Star KOs aren't usually a huge issue for me when I use him. Mewtwo's fairly good at avoiding juggles and anti-airs. Usually it's horizontal KOs that do me in more often unless it's a vertically focused killing character that has a setup or caught me on a read or a bad landing.

 

[BlazGreen]

All I really ask for is a better grab and throw game. Mewtwo doesn't really have consistent damage racking throws as F-throw can be DI'd to reduce the damage and D-throw doesn't have any guaranteed followups even after the patch. His grab itself could use a bit more range both vertically and horizontally so he can catch short characters and be safer in general.

I guess U-tilt could do with a buff because lol hitboxes but the move does have some uses right now anyway.

I don't really care about his weight as much to be honest. With one of the best air dodges in the game as well as above average ground and air speeds he becomes a difficult character to catch and if he's played correctly he shouldn't get tagged by stray hits that often. Don't get me wrong I'd love to see his weight increase even if it's only by 5 or so points as it makes things a bit less risky but I'd rather see the other things I've mentioned buffed first.

 

[godogod]

So yeah, you're basically saying that Mewtwo does not have as much tools compared to these other characters. I think that's the important thing. It's fine to want more good qualities and buffs to actual options, I'd prefer that over putting so much focus on weight. That would just be a band aid solution and it wouldn't help him as much as other stuff he could get. Plus it's kind of his identity in this game.

Say the development team had a tradeoff for balance changes for Mewtwo but did not want to implement all of them. Instead, they would do tradeoffs with more/better options vs more weight.

Scenario one would have a more reliable teleport, a buffed weight of 85, and an improved grab in both speed and reliability.

Scenario two would be a more reliable teleport, a down throw that combos at low to medium percents, 3 frames off his jab, 3 frames off his side tilt, a faster back air, a faster and more reliable up tilt, and an improved grab in both speed and reliability. However, his weight would remain at 72.

Which one would you prefer, and which Mewtwo would be better? I'd personally say it's #2 easily despite the weight not getting buffed. Number one would probably be viable, but number two could potentially be so much better.

This what if scenario includes the current buffs he has though, right? That's a bit unfair, considering you gave five really good buffs over one(weight). If down throw true combo'd into up smash like in Mewtwo trailer, that alone would almost make up for the weight. Those four other ones are good as well.

If the first option had down throw included(or shadowball charged with a hitbox), I'd pick that one.

That trophy never does mention Mewtwo's weight though. Flying far when struck could've also meant that its aerial attributes are on the floaty side, while its weight is actually heavy; Samus is heavy and floaty herself when you think about it.

Also, the funny thing about this dilemma is that although higher weight can help a fighter survive longer, even the heaviest fighters can get KO'd before hitting the 150% damage mark, if they're hit by a strong enough attack.

Nah, the trophy pretty explicitly stated his lack of knockback resistance. Weight in this game means how much someone flies when struck. This game series isn't exactly known for being canon with each series game series.

 

[420quickscoper]

Can we just end this now? Mewtwo doesn't need buffs. That's all.

 

[Kamtheman56]

Can we just end this now? Mewtwo doesn't need buffs. That's all.

At this current moment it's more of a "Things I'd personally like to see get buffed on Mewtwo" rather than saying what he outright needs as that is difficult to determine for anyone.

 

[godogod]

Knockback resistance=weight.

Can we just end this now? Mewtwo doesn't need buffs. That's all.

Why are you backtracking earlier on what you said you wanted changed? Also, you don't get to decide the fate of this thread and prevent others from having constructive comments here if they want to. Stop clicking and replying to this thread if it bothers you so much.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Can we just end this now? Mewtwo doesn't need buffs. That's all.

The mod isn't going to close it until the last patch. Makes sense though.

There is nothing constructive about this thread...

If you want constructive, add to the Metagame discussion, lab Mewtwo, find MU info give suggestions for the guide.

 

[Deleted member]

Literally anything Mewtwo needs is better grab range and a more consistent hitbox for up tilt. Otherwise he's perfectly fine as he is.

 

[Aninymouse]

Literally anything Mewtwo needs is better grab range and a more consistent hitbox for up tilt. Otherwise he's perfectly fine as he is.

These are great QOL fixes that I'd like to see.

And yes, while Mewtwo is "fine" right now, I'd be lying if I said I didn't want Mewtwo to be top tier. Who doesn't want the character they love the most to be better?

Most of the post-1.1.3 suggestions here have been QOL improvements, not anything too extravagant.

 

[Smashifer]

Literally anything Mewtwo needs is better grab range and a more consistent hitbox for up tilt. Otherwise he's perfectly fine as he is.

One more thing is his up air hitboxes still need fixing, it's still atrocious.

 

[Aninymouse]

Yes, Uair and Utilt should at least match the animation.

 

[RayNoire]

I actually don't want Dthrow to change. It's his second most useful throw, setting up for platform Usmashes and generally good positioning, and making it a combo throw would just homogenize him.

But if we're staying 2nd lightest and top 3 largest, then we shouldn't have anything else holding us back. We need grab fixes, and for them to complete the fixes they started on Bair and Uair. Jab and Utilt also need a fix, and Ftilt could stand to be less laggy. Also, Bair needs more disjoint; it is ridiculous that it loses at max spacing to Yoshi's Dair. Fix Teleport bounce SDs. Make jab f3 and Nair f5. Then he might be viable, although MUs like DK and Bowser might still gatekeep him even after all that.

 

[420quickscoper]

I actually don't want Dthrow to change. It's his second most useful throw, setting up for platform Usmashes and generally good positioning, and making it a combo throw would just homogenize him.

But if we're staying 2nd lightest and top 3 largest, then we shouldn't have anything else holding us back. We need grab fixes, and for them to complete the fixes they started on Bair and Uair. Jab and Utilt also need a fix, and Ftilt could stand to be less laggy. Also, Bair needs more disjoint; it is ridiculous that it loses at max spacing to Yoshi's Dair. Fix Teleport bounce SDs. Make jab f3 and Nair f5. Then he might be viable, although MUs like DK and Bowser might still gatekeep him even after all that.

Down throw is good for reads and such, but it gives you nothing guaranteed, so I only use it for situational uses. I don't know a whole lot about down throw, but I use forward throw more because it gives better positioning, free SB charge and a nice 13%.

Hitboxes need to be fixed, agreed.

2nd lightest and top 3 largest, yeah, the usual stuff that every Mewtwo player says cause it's the only thing people can think of when it comes to him. I don't think it really matters much, honestly, because with his movement options, his speed, and his ridiculous air dodge, AND his good spacing, I don't really think it's much of a problem. I'm sure you're a better Mewtwo player than I am, of course, but that thought is like every other negative Mewtwo main.

I think he could be confirmed viable with the things that need to be fixed and a frame 3 Jab. That's really all I want.

mewtwo is already viable, wake up people