List of things to buff Mewtwo

[godogod]

^^And I wonder what sakurai thought when they made a 269lb pokemon a lightweight, hell balloon weight and lighter than pikachu in SSB4. I can't imagine mewtwo being a heavy weight though in this game with the same air speed, air acceleration, etc.

 

[Mr. B]

Back air being quicker would help with holding off pressure from behind, which is currently one of Mewtwo's blind spots. It's fine currently as a fan type attack to catch people recovering, but it's not great on stage.

YES. After maining Mewtwo in Melee, I still have the muscle memory for the old and glorious BAir. Sm4sh Bair is much slower to come out and it is still common for me to input BAir too late and have the hitbox not come out in time. A faster acting BAir would make an incredible difference to Mewtwo's tier list position, IMO.

*aren't we all forgetting forward air?

Shadow Ball has to charge and it can be situational,
but forward air?
There is no risk in throwing it out and it kills so it's a nice alternative.

No one ever forgets FAir!

Shadowball is amazing. After a round of plentiful shadowball use, charge that sucker up and then... don't use it at all. Everyone knows how much they fear it, and you can generate some great (and punishable) paranoia. On the topic of the character attribute that everyone fears and respects, Mewtwo's is a FCSB, no doubt. Even more so when it's fresh.

 

[godogod]

Not sure what to feel overall about yesterday's surprise patch.

Up Smash getting less frames and up air getting a larger hitbox is good. 8% speed boost was unexpected and not necessary, but anything helps.

Looking back, crazy how Mewtwo went from 1.4 -->1.7 to 1.7-->1.9-->2.05 in dash speed from melee to smash 4 to post 1.1.5 patch. That's over a 40% increase in dash speed! He lost some bulk though, but he did get some slightly stronger moves.

Getting a +2 in weight from yesterday's patch is a joke though. It's so trivial, it almost feels like Sakurai or whoever is in charge of balance is taunting us. There's a lot of pointless small and unnecessary buffs and nerfs , though I'm glad that Mewtwo was one of the characters that ended up being patched right. I'm still hoping we get a weight buff up to 77 at least(though ideally I want 85 as always). I'm also surprised Sakurai didn't fix the SD teleporting bounce off the edge issue for teleporters like Mewtwo and Palutena. That and fixing his grab is in my prirority list, along with weight and speeding up up tilt(and increasing horizontal range)+ forward tilt. Higher acceleration speed could work wonders also, and IMO he would have probably benefited that over more than the dash speed increase we got the other day. Oh well. He's a sold mid at least now. /:

With that being said, I wonder if we'll even get another patch. A good amount of the top tier characters got nerfed, and so many of the lower ones got buffed. Mewtwo himself got good buffs here. If we don't get any more patches or buffs I'll be okay I guess, though dissapointed.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

not necessary, but anything helps.
whoever is in charge of balance is taunting us. There's a lot of pointless small and unnecessary buffs and nerfs I'm also surprised Sakurai didn't fix the SD teleporting bounce off the edge issue for teleporters like Mewtwo and Palutena.
With that being said, I wonder if we'll even get another patch. A good amount of the top tier characters got nerfed, and so many of the lower ones got buffed. Mewtwo himself got good buffs here. If we don't get any more patches or buffs I'll be okay I guess, though dissapointed.

Sums up this patch pretty well.

 

[420quickscoper]

How many more buffs are you gonna need until you're satisfied?

 

[LRodC]

We're good. Anything from this point on is just gravy. We got our buffs. Focus on Jiggs now.

 

[Chiroz]

We're good. Anything from this point on is just gravy. We got our buffs. Focus on Jiggs now.

Agree. I like where Mewtwo is at.

Goddamn did you guys see Samus changes???

 

[Quantumpen]

Agree on Mewtwo. He's a lot of fun to play right now.

These Samus changes are so awesome. I haven't had time to process what they mean yet, but she just feels so much better -- kinda like Mewtwo after 1.1.3. I used to play her a lot in Melee so I'm hoping to put in some time this weekend and dust off the cobwebs. I think she's the biggest winner of this patch.

Zard got a lot too, his forum is on ablaze with enthusiasm -- but I know literally nothing about him so I can't comment. Seems a lot less clunky, though. Excited to try him out later.

 

[meleebrawler]

I like to think Mewtwo was chosen to be the pioneer of spec changes. Until his 1.1.4 buffs changes to mobility were unheard of in patches, but after seeing what a smashing success giving Mewtwo more mobility turned out to be opened the gateway for characters like Samus and Charizard do the same.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I'm personally happy that the devs arent afraid to experiment with weight changes. Not just with mewtwo, but sheik and zard, too. Even bowser, the heaviest character in the game, got more weight.

 

[Deleted member]

Literally all he needs at this point is better grab range and he's perfect. Even then, he's still pretty good.

 

[meleebrawler]

Literally all he needs at this point is better grab range and he's perfect. Even then, he's still pretty good.

At this point his insane dash speed coupled with baby shadow balls do much to mask the poor reach on his dashgrab, so grabbing offensively is not much of a problem anymore. Defensively (ie OOS) is still a tossup with his low traction, but does seem like a meaningful weakness at least. He's got powerful throws and isn't too shabby at pressuring his opponents so he can land them, but struggles to use them or anything else when under fire himself, so he must be on point to stop that from happening.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

At this point his insane dash speed coupled with baby shadow balls do much to mask the poor reach on his dashgrab, so grabbing offensively is not much of a problem anymore. Defensively (ie OOS) is still a tossup with his low traction, but does seem like a meaningful weakness at least. He's got powerful throws and isn't too shabby at pressuring his opponents so he can land them, but struggles to use them or anything else when under fire himself, so he must be on point to stop that from happening.

Yes this is a good spot for him. He is buffed but still with weaknesses a good balance imo.

420quickscoper I don't think anyone really wanted a mobility buff. Your post makes it seem like we won't stop until we are sheik or something. Still a buff is a buff and Mewtwo is about to be SS Tier

 

[godogod]

Still a buff is a buff and Mewtwo is about to be SS Tier
Definitely not top tier. I think he's a solid mid easily at least.

Literally all he needs at this point is better grab range and he's perfect. Even then, he's still pretty good.

Needs more consistency with grabbing smaller characters especially. Giving the WFT moving hitbox one unit down could do the trick. Fixing the SD teleport issue is something I think should be a top priority also, more so than anything else along with the grab.


I really wish they didn't give those two points in weight, because it feels like a bad tease, considering they buffed speed twice. But I guess I could live without it if grabbing, teleport SD, down throw, and f and up tilt issues(or most of them) get fixed at least.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The weight buff seems nice, but it could've been a bit better if you asked me. Grab ranges could've been worked on as well, but I guess when your run speed is between that of Greninja and Sheik now, that does seem to help its dash grabs a bit.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Still a buff is a buff and Mewtwo is about to be SS Tier
Definitely not top tier. I think he's a solid mid easily at least.

I like Mewtwo and he will always be SS tier to me but I wasn't serious.

Also the teleport should have been fixed but whatever they want to do I guess is good. Like you said before they do unexpected and not necessary buffs and nerfs

 

[Top Boss]

Mewtwo would be top 15 with fixed hitboxes, up b not being dumb, and a faster back air, imo.

 

[Mr. B]

A faster BAir would be godly, or even for the hitboxes to just come out a bit sooner, in line with the tailslap animation... But its not necessary, IMO.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

Is U-tilt not supposed to have a hitbox behind mewtwo? I always get punished for using it when my opponent is either behind me or falling behind me. Maybe I am spacing it incorrectly which is most likely the case as I am bad at the game.

godogod that is a very cool visualization and thanks now I know I'm not crazy.

 

[godogod]

^^that's one of the things I want buffed along with f tilt. Have more horizontal range for up tilt, and faster tilts for up and forward.

Spoiler: visualization for mewtwo's up tilt hitbox

from Furil.

Spoiler: VISUALIZATION OF F TILT

F tilt feels a bit situational mixup. Like as a poking situation, it's not very good, considering the tip of mewtwo's tail isn't the strongest. You have to be fairly close(base of tail) for max damage. Also, its slow. All the tilts start out 2 frames slower than melee version for some reason. I dunno why the smash devs took out one active frame in one of the earlier patches too for f tilt too. So yeah, I mainly want faster tilts for forward and up tilt, along with more horizontal range(or more active frames) for up tilt.

 

[godogod]

What if sakurai decides one more patch, and that happens to include another and final Mewtwo buff.. But he can only pick one of these categories. Which one would you pick?

Power - any two moves of your choice now KO 10% sooner, or one move kills 20% sooner

Defense - Mewtwo gains roughly 15% in weight, which is back to 85 weight from melee. In addition, intangibility increase from 9-17 to 8-18 for teleport, and ending lag for teleport is decreased by half a second.

Speed - Mewtwo gains a 10% speed increase in walking and dash. Dash speed goes from 2.05 to 2.25, and walk speed is 1.2 to 1.32, meaning he is now slightly faster than little mac.

Air - All aerials have -2 frames landing lag, neutral air now has a hitbox that goes to the ground(like melee). Air acceleration also increases from .03 to .07.

Frames - Forward tilt starts 4 frames sooner, up tilt starts 2 frames sooner , and down tilt starts 1 frame sooner , Overall FaF frames reduced for tilts between 3-6 as well(6 for forward tilt, 4 for up tilt, and 3 for down tilt) . Down throw throw ends 4 frames sooner, now being able to combo again like it did for Mewtwo in Melee.

Hitbox - Mewtwo's grab hitbox now extends one unit down + unit forward. Basically given the wft and zelda treatment. Up tilt now reliably hits enemies from behind, and back air now hits short characters while short hopping. Cherry on top, shadowball gets its hitbox while charging from melee.

 

[C3CC]

What if sakurai decides one more patch, and that happens to include Mewtwo buff.. But he can only pick one of these categories. Which one would you pick?

Power - any two moves of your choice now KO 10% sooner, or one move kills 20% sooner

Defense - Mewtwo gains roughly 15% in weight, which is back to 85 weight from melee. In addition, intangibility increase from 9-17 to 8-18 for teleport, and ending lag for teleport is decreased by half a second.

Speed - Mewtwo gains a 10% speed increase in walking and dash. Dash speed goes from 2.05 to 2.25, and walk speed is 1.2 to 1.32, meaning he is now slightly faster than little mac.

Air - All aerials have -2 frames landing lag, neutral air now has a hitbox that goes to the ground(like melee). Air acceleration also increases from .03 to .07.

Frames - Forward tilt starts 4 frames sooner, up tilt starts 2 frames sooner, and down tilt starts 1 frame sooner and ends 2 frames sooner, FaF frames reduced for tilts between 4-6 as well. Down throw throw ends 4 frames sooner, now being able to combo again like it did for Mewtwo in Melee.

Hitbox - Mewtwo's grab hitbox now extends one unit down + unit forward. Basically given the wft and zelda treatment. Up tilt now reliably hits enemies from behind, and back air now hits short characters while short hopping.

Oh my God... It's too hard to choose. I really can't pick one D: I mean, his speed is great already, but imagining him faster than Little Mac is just too sexy to just let go...

His power is great already, but I wish his throws went back to their Melee power. Wait, that would be op. Oh well, he's the world's most powerful Pokémon, deal with it. Eeeeheheheheheh...

I think Defense is the most viable option. Or Air. Or maybe Frames. AGHH I CAN'T DECIDE!

 

[godogod]

I know.. I went back on all of them and realized they're almost all something I really want. Maybe I should dial them a bit.

In terms of ground speed, I'm pretty satisfied. More could help, but I'm okay. That's the only one I know I wouldn't pick.

Improving weight and air acceleration is the best attribute change that could help him at this point IMO, especially air acceleration. I think for me, it would be a toss up between power and defense. Having his back and up throw kill 10% sooner is what I'd buff, or maybe up throw for 20%.

Oh and I give credit to LRodC for inspiring me.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/633202-super-smash-bros-for-wii-u/73505737

 

[Ghidorah14]

I just want uptilt to not suck.

 

[godogod]

How's that?

 

[420quickscoper]

I just want uptilt to not suck.

Up tilt doesn't suck; the only real problem with it is that it lacks a back hit-box.
Otherwise, it's good as a combo tool if you hit with two of the three parts of it. One of them has a kill confirm into up smash and confirms into other moves. Up tilt is far from bad.

What if sakurai decides one more patch, and that happens to include another and final Mewtwo buff.. But he can only pick one of these categories. Which one would you pick?

Power - any two moves of your choice now KO 10% sooner, or one move kills 20% sooner

Defense - Mewtwo gains roughly 15% in weight, which is back to 85 weight from melee. In addition, intangibility increase from 9-17 to 8-18 for teleport, and ending lag for teleport is decreased by half a second.

Speed - Mewtwo gains a 10% speed increase in walking and dash. Dash speed goes from 2.05 to 2.25, and walk speed is 1.2 to 1.32, meaning he is now slightly faster than little mac.

Air - All aerials have -2 frames landing lag, neutral air now has a hitbox that goes to the ground(like melee). Air acceleration also increases from .03 to .07.

Frames - Forward tilt starts 4 frames sooner, up tilt starts 2 frames sooner , and down tilt starts 1 frame sooner , Overall FaF frames reduced for tilts between 3-6 as well(6 for forward tilt, 4 for up tilt, and 3 for down tilt) . Down throw throw ends 4 frames sooner, now being able to combo again like it did for Mewtwo in Melee.

Hitbox - Mewtwo's grab hitbox now extends one unit down + unit forward. Basically given the wft and zelda treatment. Up tilt now reliably hits enemies from behind, and back air now hits short characters while short hopping. Cherry on top, shadowball gets its hitbox while charging from melee.

For Power, it seems reasonable. I don't have much to say, but I'd like forward smash and back throw to kill earlier.

Defense

Is it not clear that this character is supposed to be glass cannon? If it doesn't feel that way to you then you might not be punishing right.

Speed

I don't know what to say, honestly.

Air

Making him have better FAF is
1: Unnecessary, his FAF is actually pretty good (better than Cloud's actually)
2: Could make his air game a little overwhelming
I would really like air acceleration though, good idea.

Frames

Making forward tilt faster would be great and all but it's the move itself is probably the biggest reason it's not very good.
Down tilt and up tilt are fine. (The buffs are good.)
For down throw, I dunno, maybe worsen the angle so it can't combo like down tilt can.
If you make it as good as down tilt that would be stupid; Mewtwo should never have a dashing down tilt.

Hit box

I like the grab idea and up tilt too.
Back air isn't meant to be used near the ground.
For Shadow Ball's hit box, there is no reason to add it back.
1. That would make it so that Aura Sphere is completely inferior to Shadow Ball. It's also now just for Lucario only.
2. Shadow Ball is already really good.

I like some of your ideas, but please know that some of this is somewhat overwhelming.

 

[C3CC]

I don't care about Lucario, Mewtwo was first, and that property originally belonged to him. Find a different way to make Aura Sphere useful, but give that hitbox back to Shadow Ball. It deserves it. Also add the cool explosion when it collides against a wall again while you're at it.

 

[LRodC]

That was a joke topic since I like trolling on there. Are you Arcanine2009? GameFAQs loves taking stuff so seriously and it's funny seeing their reactions. I know that version of Mewtwo is hugely OP.

Just for the sake of playing along seriously though, I would definitely love a grab range buff. Anything else is just gravy.

 

[godogod]

I don't care about shadowball having a hitbox and a few other things that much. I added some to make it for people who do care.I just made a bunch of categories and some examples for each one and wanted to see which category people would choose personally. No need to scrutinize. Its just for fun .

 

[Ze Diglett]

What if sakurai decides one more patch, and that happens to include another and final Mewtwo buff.. But he can only pick one of these categories. Which one would you pick?

Power - any two moves of your choice now KO 10% sooner, or one move kills 20% sooner

Defense - Mewtwo gains roughly 15% in weight, which is back to 85 weight from melee. In addition, intangibility increase from 9-17 to 8-18 for teleport, and ending lag for teleport is decreased by half a second.

Speed - Mewtwo gains a 10% speed increase in walking and dash. Dash speed goes from 2.05 to 2.25, and walk speed is 1.2 to 1.32, meaning he is now slightly faster than little mac.

Air - All aerials have -2 frames landing lag, neutral air now has a hitbox that goes to the ground(like melee). Air acceleration also increases from .03 to .07.

Frames - Forward tilt starts 4 frames sooner, up tilt starts 2 frames sooner , and down tilt starts 1 frame sooner , Overall FaF frames reduced for tilts between 3-6 as well(6 for forward tilt, 4 for up tilt, and 3 for down tilt) . Down throw throw ends 4 frames sooner, now being able to combo again like it did for Mewtwo in Melee.

Hitbox - Mewtwo's grab hitbox now extends one unit down + unit forward. Basically given the wft and zelda treatment. Up tilt now reliably hits enemies from behind, and back air now hits short characters while short hopping. Cherry on top, shadowball gets its hitbox while charging from melee.

Hitbox fixes, by far. I'd say that's what he needs most from this list (that wouldn't make him broken, anyway).

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

I don't care about shadowball having a hitbox and a few other things that much. I added some to make it for people who do care.I just made a bunch of categories and some examples for each one and wanted to see which category people would choose personally. No need to scrutinize. Its just for fun .

Don't worry about it the rest of us got it some people are just a little slow/serious.

 

[Y2Kay]

the only thing I want left is a better grab range

 

[godogod]

the only thing I want left is a better grab range

For sure, a better grab always helps.

Realistically speaking, I want the teleport SD bouncing fixed, more grab and reliable range(like WFT and zelda), faster tilts(up and forward), a down throw that actually combos(reduced ending lag), and a tiny bit to moderate bit more weight(77-85). His power and speed are fine to me, but are unexpected wlecomes.

Oh and replying to 420 quick scoper, I don't think a down throw comboing is gonna outclass his down tilt for comboing. Down tilt is faster, while down throw is betterr against people who shield a lot.

Also in regards to Mewtwo being a glass cannon, having 85 weight won't prevent him from being a glasscannon. Samus and Shiek are glass cannons(even before their weight was reduced). 85 is still relatively light. I don't have too much of a problem dying over 100, but him diying ealier than other characters certainly make him less viable.


AnywaysI've said this several times, though slightly different versions. I think I'll stop now.

 

[Mr. B]

Also in regards to Mewtwo being a glass cannon, having 85 weight won't prevent him from being a glasscannon. Samus and Shiek are glass cannons(even before their weight was reduced). 85 is still relatively light. I don't have too much of a problem dying over 100, but him diying ealier than other characters certainly make him less viable..

I find it strange to describe Sheik as a "glass cannon" though maybe Samus qualifies. Glass cannons are defined by having significantly greater than average damage/knockback, balanced with extreme lightness and a need for precise timing.

 

[Clock Tower Prison]

I find it strange to describe Sheik as a "glass cannon" though maybe Samus qualifies. Glass cannons are defined by having significantly greater than average damage/knockback, balanced with extreme lightness and a need for precise timing.

Tipper U-Smash?

godogod I also don't think we really need a combo throw when we have our pretty good tilts. Also I mostly use forward throw whenever I grab someone. It is great to rack up damage and puts people away from you to consider your next approach.

 

[Mr. B]

Tipper U-Smash?

Having one or two powerful moves doesn't fit the glass cannon archetype. Everyone needs at least 1 kill move or they would never seal stocks. Ness is light and has a capital-a-awesome back throw... is he a glass cannon too? Mewtwo's moves all deliver nice solid damage and he has (probably) the best projectile in the game, but the relatively slow startup on almost all his moves mean that you cant just fling them out safely, so you have to play him with good spacing/timing and focus on punish rather than rushdown.

Maybe what I think of as the glass cannon archetype isn't what everybody else does though, so meh.

 

[LRodC]

I would consider the glass cannon archetype to apply to Mewtwo and Little Mac for different reasons. Fast with good overall frame data and power, but can die very easily if you screw up or play poorly/make bad decisions. Mac is more extreme in this regard.

 

[Mr. B]

I feel like Mewtwo's frame data is not that great overall and little mac is a lot better in that regard, but he is balanced in a weird way in that all his strengths simply evaporate when he gets in the air. I get what you are saying though.

When I fight Macs I get the impression that he doesn't really mind being hit around too much, whereas with Mewtwo it is genuinely worth focusing on not being hit, since it doesn't take many to bring him to kill% regardless of the situation. Mac is only really weak when forced into particular situations, and that FSmash super armour means he can pressure without fear.

 

[godogod]

I find it strange to describe Sheik as a "glass cannon" though maybe Samus qualifies. Glass cannons are defined by having significantly greater than average damage/knockback, balanced with extreme lightness and a need for precise timing.

The competitive community considers light characters with significant combo game to be glass cannon apparently.

In terms of knockback, Mewtwo doesn't stand out to me as above average in raw power, outside of his shadowball projectile, his up smash, and arguably his up throw(strongest up throw with DI, but killing mario at 130% isn't something to write home about). Well actually, all of his aerials do more damage per hit than the majority of the cast.

I think most competitive mewtwo players hear regard him as a glass cannon mainly because of his aerial game and speed. He can rack up damage fast with aerial combos.

 

[Mr. B]

The competitive community considers light characters with significant combo game to be glass cannon apparently.

Huh. Well, its just semantics I suppose.... Discard my ramblings - the meta is more important than the definitions that arise from discussions of the meta...

On that topic, while I am now getting to the point where I can pull out interesting combo strings, my playstyle has developed to be more reactive and I now focus more on evasion and 1-2 hit combo punishes rather than overreaching for extra hits that leave me open. Swoops recent thread was really helpful helping me to recognise my weaknesses and try to play to Mewtwo's strengths more