List of things to buff Mewtwo

[Sonicninja115]

More combos out of forward air, you say?


...

MORE?!?
Yes... *rubs hands* YES!!!!!

(if fair can change into itself at higher percents i will love the **** out of that move. Quite unlikely but that would be FUN.

It comes out sooner, meaning it can be used closer to the ground. It already combo'ed into itself and grab, but there might be 50/50's now.

 

[Chiroz]

D-Throw's comboing problem has never been about height, it's always been about lag after the move AND horizontal knockback.

Just think about what you normally do when you D-Throw, most of the time it's a forward short hop. You don't full hop until really excessive %s.

Literally one of my most effective kill setups against people with no Mewtwo knowledge is D-Throw into Short Hop cancelled Disable. We're talking about 80% on the opponent and I am still short hopping, not even a full jump.



The more upwards angle is a definite buff in terms of combo potential, but if the end lag still remains the same then there's no way you can combo out of it.

And the new angle might mean you can't Disable/F-Smash out of a read which might actually lead to a nerf in our tech game.




Also U-Air changes make me uneasy. Double Jump U-Air could already true combo into F-Air/N-Air at all %s from 50-100%, it's one of our only high % combos and the change might **** it up.

Hopefully it doesn't and just gives us some cool new combos.

 

[420quickscoper]

D-Throw's comboing problem has never been about height, it's always been about lag after the move AND horizontal knockback.

Just think about what you normally do when you D-Throw, most of the time it's a forward short hop. You don't full hop until really excessive %s.



The more upwards angle is a definite buff in terms of combo potential, but if the end lag still remains the same then there's no way you can combo out of it.

And the new angle might mean you can't Disable/F-Smash out of a read which might actually lead to a nerf in our tech game.




Also U-Air changes make me uneasy. Double Jump U-Air could already true combo into F-Air/N-Air at all %s from 50-100%, it's one of our only high % combos and the change might **** it up.

Hopefully it doesn't and just gives us some cool new combos.

Maybe we didn't get all that combo stuff, but at least we got hitbox fixes. Took them long enough.

 

[Ryusuta]

So, there's still no follow-ups to down throw? what was the point of changing it at all?

(Obviously haven't seen or experimented with the changes yet.)

 

[Chiroz]

So, there's still no follow-ups to down throw? what was the point of changing it at all?

(Obviously haven't seen or experimented with the changes yet.)

The patch notes apparently aren't done and it's mostly knockback angle and strength and hitboxes. We won't know of startup or lag changes until later today. So for all we know D-Throw now combos into a lot of stuff, or it might not combo into anything.

 

[420quickscoper]

So, there's still no follow-ups to down throw? what was the point of changing it at all?

(Obviously haven't seen or experimented with the changes yet.)

Keep your hopes up! That may not be the only tweak it'll get. We'll see, alright?

 

[BlazGreen]

Update is out. Get to the lab, people!

 

[Ryusuta]

Update is out. Get to the lab, people!

Practicing now. the down throw doesn't seem to link into anything, but it seems so close. There's just so much endlag after the tail slap part. I'm definitely still working on it, though, and this is by NO means a definite answer.

Edit: It looks like MAYBE down tilt might come close to linking off of down throw on some characters? Perhaps? It doesn't register as a combo, though, so it's probably placebo. Yeah, I don't think down throw is gonna be a game-changer.

Forward air tweaks seem fairly noticeable (in a good way), though.

Again, any or all of this could be placebo on my part. It's just how it seems. I guess time will tell!

 

[godogod]

When they say 50%, do they mean there are still things left to be discovered?

 

[Chiroz]

When they say 50%, do they mean there are still things left to be discovered?

Yes

Practicing now. the down throw doesn't seem to link into anything, but it seems so close. There's just so much endlag after the tail slap part. I'm definitely still working on it, though, and this is by NO means a definite answer.

Edit: It looks like MAYBE down tilt might come close to linking off of down throw on some characters? Perhaps? It doesn't register as a combo, though, so it's probably placebo. Yeah, I don't think down throw is gonna be a game-changer.

Forward air tweaks seem fairly noticeable (in a good way), though.

Again, any or all of this could be placebo on my part. It's just how it seems. I guess time will tell!

I don't mind Down-Throw not comboing, does it still look good for tech-chases/setups/frame traps? Can I still short hop into Disable when my opponent is at 80% if my opponent air dodges/performs and aerial? Or does it send them so high they can double jump after the air dodge/aerial?




Also can someone confirm what the change to Confusion actually was?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Confusion might have a longer horizontal reach. Confirmed not vertical.

Dthrow has the possibility of true comboing with rage. My brother didn't want to help so it was sorta tough, but the level 7 cpu was not able to get out of Dthrow-Fair at 50% and mewtwo had 80% rage. Keep in mind, not confirmed yet, only a possible combo.

Uair kills early, and Dtilt-Uair is a true kill combo at very certain percents. about a 15-5% window, wasn't my testing area.

Didn't find anything new about Dair.

 

[meleebrawler]

Uair kills?... how early?

Dair uses likely aren't different, it's just easier to land in general.

I think Confusion may have more lateral reach too. Before the opponent pretty much had to be in the center but now they'll get caught if they're anywhere inside.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Dtilt-Uair at 130%ish?

It has to be a sweetspot though. Check jab-Dtilt-Uair, I can't do anymore testing today.

 

[Chiroz]

Confusion having more horizontal reach is actually a huge thing. It would mean a serious buff depending on how long the new reach is.

 

[Ryusuta]

Is it just my imagination, or does up air have a new visual effect? o.o

Edit: Maybe up tilt and up smash, too? Eh, maybe I'm just seeing things. XD

 

[godogod]

So.. Is it fair to say that Mewtwo needs these to be competively viable/mid tier at least?

1. Weight buff. Just needs his melee weight back at least.
2. No SDing in certain stages with teleport
3. Up tilt needs a hitbox fix.
4. Grab needs to be more reliable against short characters and dashing.. Needs a WFT like patch for short characters(extending the hitbox down). A slightly extended horizntal range would be nice too.
5. Shadowball getting its hitbox back when charging.
*6 Shorten landing lag of down throw

 

[420quickscoper]

So.. Is it fair to say that Mewtwo needs these to be competively viable/mid tier at least?

1. Weight buff. Just needs his melee weight back at least.
2. No SDing in certain stages with teleport
3. Up tilt needs a hitbox fix.
4. Grab needs to be more reliable against short characters and dashing.. Needs a WFT like patch for short characters(extending the hitbox down). A slightly extended horizntal range would be nice too.
5. Shadowball getting its hitbox back when charging.

I sorta agree with all these, except for the weight buff. I don't think he needs a weight buff.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So.. Is it fair to say that Mewtwo needs these to be competively viable/mid tier at least?

1. Weight buff. Just needs his melee weight back at least.
2. No SDing in certain stages with teleport
3. Up tilt needs a hitbox fix.
4. Grab needs to be more reliable against short characters and dashing.. Needs a WFT like patch for short characters(extending the hitbox down). A slightly extended horizntal range would be nice too.
5. Shadowball getting its hitbox back when charging.
*6 Shorten landing lag of down throw

I agree he needs those things to be solo-viable. I am pretty sure he is viable with a secondary now.

 

[420quickscoper]

I agree he needs those things to be solo-viable. I am pretty sure he is viable with a secondary now.

Yeah, he's obviously a viable secondary. Just not very solo viable.

 

[Ryusuta]

So we're still writing Mewtwo off as non-viable as a main? That's a bit disappointing. =(

 

[420quickscoper]

So we're still writing Mewtwo off as non-viable as a main? That's a bit disappointing. =(

Uh... that may change in the near future.

 

[Ryusuta]

Uh... that may change in the near future.

I'm not saying it's wrong, mind you. I just think making that call two days into the patch is jumping the gun a bit.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'm not saying it's wrong, mind you. I just think making that call two days into the patch is jumping the gun a bit.

He is not viable as a solo-main. Shiek is viable as a solo, by herself, no other characters.

Diddy kong is no longer solo-viable, he needs Mario, Shiek or Another character to cover bad MU's.

Mewtwo needs a secondary for the really bad MU's.

 

[Ryusuta]

I suppose. =/

 

[godogod]

He is not viable as a solo-main. Shiek is viable as a solo, by herself, no other characters.

Diddy kong is no longer solo-viable, he needs Mario, Shiek or Another character to cover bad MU's.

Mewtwo needs a secondary for the really bad MU's.

I think that's totally fine. Mewtwo doesn't need to be the best. Everyone has bad match ups. Always have another to cover up the bad MUs and mix things up a bit.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think that's totally fine. Mewtwo doesn't need to be the best. Everyone has bad match ups. Always have another to cover up the bad MUs and mix things up a bit.

I guess the main point of whatI am saying is that Mewtwo isn't going to win a national without a secondary.

 

[BlazGreen]

There's barely 10 solo viable characters so it's unsurprising that Mewtwo isn't one of them.

 

[Xzsmmc]

Did these buffs help at all? Or is he still meh?

 

[Furret24]

Did these buffs help at all? Or is he still meh?

Went from arguably bottom 5 to (low?) mid tier, atleast in my opinion.

 

[godogod]

It helped him a lot. All aerials have less landing lag, his up and back air are easier to connect(up air now does more damage and is a decnet kill move to use in the air now), forward smash doesn't whiff at point blank, its now easier for more f air to combo into itself due to starting earlier, moving the hitbox forward+less landing lag. Hes also about 11% faster on the ground. Neutral air is alt a lot better to use due to the decreased landing lag. Shadowball has its recoil reduced by 1/2, which is a mixed bag.

It's too early to tell how much it has affected him rank wise competively. But he has definitely moved up. I also agree that he could be low mid tier now. At least top of bottom tier easily.

All that needs to be addressed now is his up tilt, his teleport from Sding on certain stages, getting his melee weight back, less end lag on down throw, and fixing his grab IMO.

 

[Top Boss]

the back air hitbox still feels poopy. here is what i would give to mewtwo:
Fix bad hitboxes
remove sourspots off certain moves(down tilt and whatnot)
remove tail hurtbox
less end frames on down throw
speed up double jump animation
make up b not be stupid
frame advantage when using confusion
Boom.

 

[LRodC]

At this point, I feel like Mewtwo doesn't need much else to succeed except for a few minor tweaks.

I'd like:

A less laggy dash grab and a better grab hitbox for characters like Pikachu and Kirby
Shaving a few frames of end lag from down throw to make it more useful for follow ups
Lowering end lag of landed teleport and making it connect with ledge more consistently on all stages (no bouncing)
A better, more consistent up tilt hitbox
A slightly sped up forward tilt (maybe less KB to compensate?)
Confusion being a frame or few less in startup (would make reflection easier)
Maybe some hitbox cleanup here and there

That's about it. I don't care about the weight too much because it's clear to me that the development team doesn't want that or doesn't want to risk it with Mewtwo's new speed. It could definitely happen now that the door's open, but I don't think they'll do anything major. Maybe a minor upgrade at best. And besides, there were more important qualities to fix, which they did for most of them in this patch IMO. If they did change the weight, they would've probably changed it in this patch. He's really light, yeah. Too light? Possibly. Not arguing that it's not too low. However, I don't think it's a viability killer or anything like people exaggerate. If you're dying super early, why are you getting hit? You're big, but you also have the best air dodge in the game, the tenth-eleventh fastest ground speed, the third best air speed (I know the acceleration sucks), and an incredible recovery. Speed wise, you can keep up with a lot more of the cast now and escape pressure a lot easier. Definitely wouldn't complain about a buff, but I wouldn't cry too much about it if it never happens either.

Mewtwo still has the big and light stigma despite being super buffed, and it's up to us to prove that he can succeed despite the poor attributes. Top tier? Maybe not. Decent character with a lot of nice tools that can surprise people? Definitely.

This topic should be closed.

 

[Sonicninja115]

@--- Are you going to close this board?

 

[DrizzyDrew]

make him heavier. Give the boy a sandwich

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think he's mostly fine as is, I'd just normalize his grab box height to grab lower characters and make his jab do the same.

The landing lag buffs can NOT be overstated, his Nair is INSANE now. We're talking safe on crossup but it also combos into Dtilt on crossup. It's amazing how the landing lag buffs have greatly aided this character.

Additionally Uair killing off the top is awesome, man....

I don't feel like this character is bottom anything anymore IMO. 5, 10? Neither.

 

[Nobie]

I do find it funny that they ended up buffing just about everything BUT what people requested, and in my opinion it was the better choice.

Except for teleport curving shenanigans. PLEASE FIX THAT.

 

[meleebrawler]

I do find it funny that they ended up buffing just about everything BUT what people requested, and in my opinion it was the better choice.

Except for teleport curving shenanigans. PLEASE FIX THAT.

You know they can't do that without messing with EVERY warp move, right? The only Mewtwo-specific fix is getting rid of his aerial momentum, at which point it's just a mildly faster and laggier version of Palutena's Warp.

 

[Furret24]

You know they can't do that without messing with EVERY warp move, right? The only Mewtwo-specific fix is getting rid of his aerial momentum, at which point it's just a mildly faster and laggier version of Palutena's Warp.

So it would be faster and slower at the same time?

 

[Nobie]

You know they can't do that without messing with EVERY warp move, right? The only Mewtwo-specific fix is getting rid of his aerial momentum, at which point it's just a mildly faster and laggier version of Palutena's Warp.

Well I meant "fix all teleports."

 

[godogod]

I do find it funny that they ended up buffing just about everything BUT what people requested, and in my opinion it was the better choice.

Except for teleport curving shenanigans. PLEASE FIX THAT.

No. People asked for a faster movement speed and some of his moves to connect easier(back/up air/fsmash at point blank).