List of things to buff Mewtwo

[godogod]

Have you forgotten about Ryu, Sonic, Pac man, Peach? These characters have a bad grab game but they have grabless combos. Why not be like them? Some characters who are "good" in this game have their viability based almost entirely around their repetitive grab combos and they don't offer much else. Mario, ness, Donkey Kong. Smash 4 doesn't have to be so grab obsessed. What's wrong with mewtwo setting the example and NOT rely on grabs? Mewtwo could have more combos and be unique by having his combos come from up tilt and other tilts like you mentioned

Mewtwo's grab game in melee was pretty good, but they nerfed it in this game. His range(especially run grabs), and it whiffs against shorter characters. Lets just agree to disagree on the combos. That's our own opinions.

Unless sakurai says so, I'm sure we'll get more balance patches when ballot winners come out next year. I don't know about Mewtwo's fate, and I'm not expecting him to get anything significant so I don't get my hopes up.. But it is exciting to see what happens on patch day. You never now.

I made this thread to discuss the buffs that we think Mewtwo needs. Not so much about advancing the current metagame(but I don't mind if its relevant to the topic in some way). I'm not the most seasoned Mewtwo player ,but I've definitely learned a couple things and I'm thankful for the extra insight on it. Thanks guys.

 

[meleebrawler]

Wasn't Melee Mewtwo's grab game mostly chain grabs, which everybody lost?

 

[godogod]

That was down b right? I didn't chain with him , but his grabs certainly were more useful/powerful, and he had a bigger grab hitbox.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Also, I will eventually make an article showcasing the pros and cons of Disable.

All that I know about Disable is that it feels completely useless against CPUs. You're more likely to make the move connect against human players though.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

a secondary to cover bad MU's.

That's funny because I already do that.

 

[Sonicninja115]

That's funny because I already do that.

I was talking about tournament viability.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I was talking about tournament viability.

Wasn't disagreeing with you or anything
I would like to see more competitive Mewtwo.

It needs to be a read or a punish against human players. Sometimes it is obvious when I see other Mewtwos going for a Disable.

Against CPUs, it pretty much needs to be at maximum range, and even then, there's no way that the computer won't react to it instantly. Even level 8s have no trouble getting past it if I don't read or punish with it.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Wasn't disagreeing with you or anything
I would like to see more competitive Mewtwo.

Sorry! I didn't mean it to sound harsh. it was just clarification.

 

[High Entia]

Since there's a strong possibility of a new patch coming out tomorrow, I'm really hoping for a Mewtwo buff! I don't think his weight is going to change since none of the patches have changed weight. However, there are a few things that seriously should have happened a long time ago:
-Most of his hitboxes don't match the actual animation of the attacks which is really annoying. Since we can't view hitboxes of this game, the animations are the best we have to determine where they are. This needs to be changed. Either make the hitboxes match the current animations or make the animations match the current hitboxes.
-Fix his hurtbox. It's way bigger than his actual model. It feels like they reused Donkey Kong's hurtbox or something.
-Fix the grab. A psychic Pokemon shouldn't have the grab range of Melee Ness.
-Fix Teleport. It can bounce off stages and do all sorts of crazy stuff that really shouldn't happen. Also, having less ending lag on the move when landing on the ground would be nice, considering it would be a much better option for maneuvering around the the stage.

 

[godogod]

Yeah, I agree. At the very least, his hitbox issues, his grab, and his teleport SD issue should be fixed, and can easily be done so.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Yeah, I agree. At the very least, his hitbox issues, his grab, and his teleport SD issue should be fixed, and can easily be done so.

The teleport issue I is he the stages themselves. Remember how they changed Lylats stage bottom to a wall instead of a ceiling? Same sort of thing.

However, I think the time-reward ratio is a bit too skewed for nintendo to patch it.

 

[adom4]

http://smashboards.com/threads/1-1-3-patch-notes-release-pending.425921/
It seems M2 got some good buffs, U-air got buffed hard.

 

[BlazGreen]

The Patch thread has confirmed the following changes to Mewtwo!

• F-Smash
  • Hitbox 0 (non-sweetspot) damage 15.0 -> 16.0
  • Hitbox 0 size 2.0 -> 3.0
• Fair
  • Hits on frame 7 -> 6
  • Hitbox moved 1 unit forward?
• Bair
  • Hitbox 0 moved to a different bone, position adjusted, size 5.1 -> 5.5
• Uair
  • Hitbox 1 damage 9.0 -> 10.0
  • Hitbox 2 damage 7.5 -> 9.0
  • All hitboxes KBG 100 -> 97
  • All hitboxes BKB 0 -> 40
  • Hitbox 0 size 4.7 -> 5.0
  • Hitbox 1 size 3.9 -> 4.5
  • Hitbox 2 size 3.1 -> 4.0
• Dair
  • Hitboxes moved down one unit
  • Hitbox duration 2 -> 4 frames
• Side Special
  • Unknown Grab Box parameters increased (could be size or positioning)
• D-Throw
  • Angle 69 -> 74

It looks like his hitboxes are improved and down throw might be at enough of an angle to combo?

 

[Furret24]

The Patch thread has confirmed the following changes to Mewtwo!

• F-Smash
  • Hitbox 0 (non-sweetspot) damage 15.0 -> 16.0
  • Hitbox 0 size 2.0 -> 3.0
• Fair
  • Hits on frame 7 -> 6
  • Hitbox moved 1 unit forward?
• Bair
  • Hitbox 0 moved to a different bone, position adjusted, size 5.1 -> 5.5
• Uair
  • Hitbox 1 damage 9.0 -> 10.0
  • Hitbox 2 damage 7.5 -> 9.0
  • All hitboxes KBG 100 -> 97
  • All hitboxes BKB 0 -> 40
  • Hitbox 0 size 4.7 -> 5.0
  • Hitbox 1 size 3.9 -> 4.5
  • Hitbox 2 size 3.1 -> 4.0
• Dair
  • Hitboxes moved down one unit
  • Hitbox duration 2 -> 4 frames
• Side Special
  • Unknown Grab Box parameters increased (could be size or positioning)
• D-Throw
  • Angle 69 -> 74

It looks like his hitboxes are improved and dowwn throw might be at enough of an angle to combo?

Inb4 420quickscoper complains about dthrow getting a boring buff.

I got my most wanted buff of them making uair good.

 

[ミスティック Speed]

YES! FINALLY!!!!
MEWTWO BUFFS!!!!

 

[Chiroz]

YES! FINALLY!!!!
MEWTWO BUFFS!!!!

Omfg I am crying of happiness.

All these hitboxes being buffed in size, maybe they won't whiff anymore.

D-Throw buff seems really weird, I think it still has too much lag to combo but now it will lead into really punish-heavy tech chases.

I already did a lot of D-Throw into Disable/Shadow Ball/F-Smash when I read my opponent was going to air dodge or do a "combo-breaker" aerial.

 

[BlazGreen]

Omfg I am crying of happiness.

All these hitboxes being buffed in size, maybe they won't whiff anymore.

D-Throw buff seems really weird, I think it still has too much lag to combo but now it will lead into really punish-heavy tech chases.

I already did a lot of D-Throw into Disable/Shadow Ball/F-Smash when I read my opponent was going to air dodge or do a "combo-breaker" aerial.

The disclaimer at the top of patch notes says "50% = confirms all hitbox/projectile and FSM changes, does not include FAF timings or unexpected parameter adjustments" so we likely won't know about his potential d-throw combo until later.

 

[Miley]

How are the buffs, for those who have played?

Not a m2 main, but put a good amount of time to him when he was released and always play him as a pocket/for fun.

 

[BlazGreen]

How are the buffs, for those who have played?

Not a m2 main, but put a good amount of time to him when he was released and always play him as a pocket/for fun.

The patch isn't actually out yet. It's just being data mined at the moment.

 

[Miley]

ah okay;

I'll be jumping on Cloud from the get go, but I'll play with Mew2 some tonight as well

 

[Smashifer]

Mewtwo buffs during school?! Aw geez, this day is getting better and better!
Also, if the dthrow IS a combo throw now, his combo game will be improved immensely. Shield the dtilt? Grab > dthrow.

...Or the hype made a screw in my head loose or something. Thoughts?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Dthrow might be able to combo into Uair, but I doubt Fair. It would send even higher then before. That is a nice buff.

It seems that Uair might get better combo potential, or maybe worse. It depends on where it hits and the KB changes.

Fair is probably 2-3 frames safer on shield, because of it's increased range and lesser frame.

Does Bair hit slightly lower know? Or is the sweetspot bigger?

Dair should be easier to combo and Fsmash is safer on shield with increased KO potential. Damage does that right?

Confusion might be better, hopefully the grab box goes lower.

 

[420quickscoper]

Inb4 420quickscoper complains about dthrow getting a boring buff.

I got my most wanted buff of them making uair good.

I'm not going to complain at all. I'm happy.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I hope everyone knows that this isn't super amazing... He got a change to Uair, which could be good or bad, depending on the combo ability.

And Dthrow might actually be worse now, as it cannot start a forced tech chase. It comboing is also in question, as the damage and KGB and BKG aren't changed b the looks of it.

 

[420quickscoper]

I hope everyone knows that this isn't super amazing... He got a change to Uair, which could be good or bad, depending on the combo ability.

And Dthrow might actually be worse now, as it cannot start a forced tech chase. It comboing is also in question, as the damage and KGB and BKG aren't changed b the looks of it.

Dunno, man. I mean, there really isn't a reason to nerf down throw.


Furret24

I'm kind of sorry for all this stuff I've done in this thread. I really do look stupid. I hope you can forgive me. Thanks.

 

[Furret24]

I hope everyone knows that this isn't super amazing... He got a change to Uair, which could be good or bad, depending on the combo ability.

And Dthrow might actually be worse now, as it cannot start a forced tech chase. It comboing is also in question, as the damage and KGB and BKG aren't changed b the looks of it.

I'd gladly trade the virtually nonexistent combo potential of uair for it to kill.

 

[420quickscoper]

I'd gladly trade the virtually nonexistent combo potential of uair for it to kill.

I completely agree. Mewtwo doesn't really have a move that you can go up and kill vertical opponents. You basically have to wait for up smash but that may not work at times. So I agree.

 

[Nobie]

Let's talk about 4-frame dair!!!

That move wasn't difficult to hit with before, and now it lasts TWICE as long? Opponents are gonna be getting the PURPLE FOOT.

Keep in mind it's not only a spike but a potent vertical kill move.

 

[Metalex]

I'd gladly trade the virtually nonexistent combo potential of uair for it to kill.

That's not really true though, a falling Uair on a grounded opponents has tons of followups depending on which part of the move you hit with and Tipper/Sourspot Uair can combo into Fair and Usmash at KO percents as it is now. Dtilt > tipper uair > Fair is also quite a good KO combo etc

But otherwise i agree, it could be great if Uair is now a viable vertical KO option.

On a different note, i wonder if the change to Fairs startup will make the combos involving multiple Fair chains work at a wider percentage range now and if aerial confusion > dj Fair is safer to do now

 

[Sonicninja115]

That's not really true though, a falling Uair on a grounded opponents has tons of followups depending on which part of the move you hit with and Tipper/Sourspot Uair can combo into Fair and Usmash at KO percents as it is now. Dtilt > tipper uair > Fair is also quite a good KO combo etc

But otherwise i agree, it could be great if Uair is now a viable vertical KO option.

He called all the kill combos we labbed false...

I would much rather have the combos then a move that kills at 150% instead of 160% at the top of the stage.

We really just need to see Uair to find out what happened, it looks like it might be easier to hit a grounded opponent.

At what percents does Usmash kill and the Uair-Usmash combo work? Does it have the possibility of being able to true earlier allowing for earlier kills?

 

[meleebrawler]

Main thing I can see with the uair buff is not being unsafe on hit at low percents vs. fastfallers.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Main thing I can see with the uair buff is not being unsafe on hit at low percents vs. fastfallers.

Do you know that Uair is safe on shield? only -1 frame!

It might be much easier to combo with Dair, especially considering which way the frames were added. Is it one frame on each side or two frames later/earlier?

 

[Metalex]

He called all the kill combos we labbed false...

I would much rather have the combos then a move that kills at 150% instead of 160% at the top of the stage.

We really just need to see Uair to find out what happened, it looks like it might be easier to hit a grounded opponent.

At what percents does Usmash kill and the Uair-Usmash combo work? Does it have the possibility of being able to true earlier allowing for earlier kills?

Well yeah i agree it's not often you would get the opportunity to KO with Uair and would be a bit situational. The combos we currently have from Uair is more useful when it comes to KOing imo so i wouldn't want to lose them.

Regarding the ff Uair > Usmash combo it's hard to say atm if it will still work after the patch releases, but when it's out i will hit the lab as fast as possible and post my findings in the combo thread!

 

[meleebrawler]

They seem to be making uair more useful in general, even if we may lose a few kill confirms, it'll be more reliable for juggling.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Relatively inconsequential to his overall viability but very nice buffs nonetheless!

Most notable IMO is you now have a Dair that is better than Falcon's in virtually every way with the added active frames. Enjoy it, be disrespectful!

D-Throw Angle might be more intuitive for mixups, holy crap!

 

[Sonicninja115]

Hey meleebrawler are you going to be able to lab the patch? I can take Dthrow and Dair I guess, and Metalex can take Uair and you can pick and chose. Does that sound good? It would be sorta annoying if we all labbed the same thing and came to the same conclusion...

Fair and Bair might have more combo ability BTW.

 

[Metalex]

Sonicninja115 It can be good to have multiple people testing the same thing also since then you are making sure it is correct, but i see what you mean. Sounds like a good idea!

 

[Sonicninja115]

Sonicninja115 It can be good to have multiple people testing the same thing also since then you are making sure it is correct, but i see what you mean. Sounds like a good idea!

we can verify data later. I just want to find as much possible pretty fast.

 

[Metalex]

we can verify data later. I just want to find as much possible pretty fast.

Yeah i understand what you mean, sounds like a plan!

And regarding Fair and Bair yeah they will most likely have more combo opportunities now and there are alot of combos involving Fair and Bair that links that will now most likely be true combos, will be testing these out also!

 

[420quickscoper]

Yeah i understand what you mean, sounds like a plan!

And regarding Fair and Bair yeah they will most likely have more combo opportunities now and there are alot of combos involving Fair and Bair that links that will now most likely be true combos, will be testing these out also!

More combos out of forward air, you say?


...

MORE?!?
Yes... *rubs hands* YES!!!!!

(if fair can change into itself at higher percents i will love the **** out of that move. Quite unlikely but that would be FUN.