List of things to buff Mewtwo

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I think balance is the reason for our poor grab range and I don't see that changing, but at the same time I do agree as we do need the wiffing on short characters fixed like Wii Fit got a few patches back.

That's the problem. If Mewtwo doesn't get a buff for its grab range, it likely won't ever get out of the low-tier rankings. While Little Mac can do just fine, even with his atrocious grab range, that's not the case for Mewtwo, as it's just heavily reliant on its grabs and throws.

 

[meleebrawler]

That's the problem. If Mewtwo doesn't get a buff for its grab range, it likely won't ever get out of the low-tier rankings. While Little Mac can do just fine, even with his atrocious grab range, that's not the case for Mewtwo, as it's just heavily reliant on its grabs and throws.

Here we go again, taking one of Mewtwo's issues and acting as if it's the SOLE reason he's unviable, and that fixing it will solve everything.

Why exactly is he reliant on grabs again? Because one of them happens to be the best vertical kill throw? Even when taking into account Mewtwo various other safe and/or fast kill moves (not to mention kill setups), most of his damage comes from good spacing and the combos that can result from it. His throws are strong tools, but he's not constantly looking to land them. They mainly serve as a defence mechanism by giving space.

And again, his grab's short range is somewhat overblown. Nothing special aside from dash grab, but far from Little Mac's or Ganondorf's level, and it doesn't lag unnecessarily like the latter two either.

His throws are his backup plans, not his go-to options.

 

[420quickscoper]

That's the problem. If Mewtwo doesn't get a buff for its grab range, it likely won't ever get out of the low-tier rankings. While Little Mac can do just fine, even with his atrocious grab range, that's not the case for Mewtwo, as it's just heavily reliant on its grabs and throws.

Mewtwo isn't heavy reliant on his throw game. In fact I could say the exact opposite. How is he reliant on throws at all? He's much more reliant on his tilts. MUCH more reliant.

 

[meleebrawler]

^^outside of jagged shadowball and mirror coat, I like those ideas a lot. I forgot about psycho cut. I've mentioned before months earlier(like others). I can see it working like greninja's water shuriken.. Or maybe just piercing through multiple enemies.

Late reply, but for jagged shadow ball I was just thinking of a custom that would provide charging damage while still being somewhat unique from other customs. Some of you suggested Hyper Beam, here's how I see it: a giant laser that can't be reflected or absorbed (like a Lethinium's from Smash Run), but has big endlag and takes a very long time to charge.

The idea behind Mirror Coat is that in the matches you'd want to take it in (namely heavy zoners), the ability to bounce would be less crucial. So it's a very situational custom, but powerful. And it all but guarantees you'll win tennis (unless the opponent is also packing a 2x reflector). Also I want the bounce to remain Confusion's "thing".

Back to the throw topic, uthrow kills aren't as common as you may think. They usually only happen when everything else fails to get the kill.

 

[Gimj]

I'm a Mewtwo main that hasn't really participated on these forums but I've lurked here every so often. With the Final Presentation coming up, I just want to give my opinions on sensible buffs that would make him much more competitively viable before the end comes. I do not expect all or any of these buffs(hype is made perfect in pessimism), but I honestly think all these buffs could be given to the character without being unhealthy. Take from this what you will(some things are not balance related).

Bolded = I think he needs it
Non-bold = Buff that doesn't seem to be serious need, but an area that could help push him into the upper tier.

My Patch Notes:

Jab:
- Comes out 1 frame earlier.
- Multi-hit links 1 frame earlier.
- Multi-hit links much better(in line with most characters).
*Prevents being so easily escapable/useless at higher percents.

Forward-Tilt:
- Comes out 1-2 frames earlier.
Why: This skill is just so slow for no reason I can decipher. Mewtwo need to space efficiently and this just barely helps the cause.

Up-Tilt:
- More consistent/distinguishable hitboxes for weak/strong hits.
- Comes out 2 frames earlier.

Why: I'm not 100% about this ability because I don't really implement it in my game. It seems too slow to use on a consistent basis, especially when D-Tilt is much faster.

Down-Tilt:
- Attack animation overhauled. Remade to not look more graceful/effortless rather than tryhard/weird.
- Knockback scaling reduced very slightly.
* Allows for easier follow ups for longer.


Forward Smash:
- Range increased slightly(to about Disable's range).
- Comes out 2 frames earlier.
- Whiffing issues at point-blank fixed.
Why: Gives a more distinct utility/reason to use it over Down Smash.

Down Smash:
- Ending lag reduced by ? frames.
Why: Make it absolutely safe on shield by whatever frames necessary(it might be totally safe atm, need verification), distinct from Forward Smash.

Aerials:

Neutral Air:
- Hitbox near feet/in general enlarged slightly.
*Short hop Nair can actually affect short characters consistently without requiring Mewtwo to be literally on top of them.
- Landing with this move mid-way now forces the finishing hit of Nair(like Melee).
OR
- Landing lag reduced by ? frames
* Enough so fast falling/landing mid-Nair gives Mewtwo the frame advantage.
- Easier way of manipulating/predicating Nair knockback.


Forward Air:
- Landing lag reduced by 2-3 frames.
- Hit-box extended/enlarged a bit downwards on the y-axis.

Why: Actually makes it a reliable way of approaching/pressuring shield even on short characters instead of outright missing them. Gives Mewtwo an easier time comboing and helps his offense immensely. As someone who thinks Mewtwo should be able to be played offensively, I'm heavily favoring this type of buff. Short-hop fair should work on everyone, not just tall/average height characters.

Up-Air:
- Ending lag reduced by 2 frames.
- Hitboxes for weak/stonger hits more prominent/easier to distinguish.
*Rising Claw combo more reliable.
- Hitbox wonkiness fixed.

Why: Help juggle/combo more reliably.

Back Air:
- Comes out 2 frames earlier.
- Hitbox now extended/enlarged on the y-axis.
*Now properly hits enemies from a short hop.


Ledge Attack:
- Animation overhaul. Changed to Melee or replaced with a psychic-esque attack
- Hit box fixed so it doesn't miss smaller opponents like Pikachu directly on the lip of the stage because they end up behind Mewtwo.

Grab/Throws:

Grab:
- Hitbox slightly increased on standing/dash grab.
*Prevents short character jank.

Down Throw:
- Animation overhaul. Now lifts opponent telekinetically and slams them on ground(or something like that).
- Knockback angle closer to 180 degrees, sets up tech chases reliably(or something useful).

Forward Throw:
- The Shadow Balls have set knockback so they consistently link properly on the thrown opponent. The last Shadow Ball does not have the set knockback. Yoshi cannot jump out of this anymore.

Specials:

Teleport/Up-B:
- Now properly intangible during startup.
- Landing lag+ending lag reduced significantly.
- Sweet spots ledge reliably.
* Speed is such that is a superior/equivalent option to rolling(like Melee).
-? Teleport-bouncing collision reduced on problem stages.

Shadow Ball/Neutral-B:
- Non-charge/"baby" Shadow Ball's charge-and-release phase is slightly faster(1-3 frames).

Confusion:
- Startup reduced by 2 frames.

Disable:
- Sends facing aerial opponents into free-fall.
- Sends non-facing aerial opponents away(what current[1.1.2] facing Disable does).
- Special case of abnormally high shield damage and/or shield stun.
- Stunned duration increased at lower-percentages.

Why: Self-explanatory, but Disable should be usable. In its current form it is nigh impossible to find a solid niche to use it in. It is too high risk-low reward. The above fixes that in a logical way in my opinion. Also, I'm of the opinion that Mewtwo's big weakness in his weight is okay as long as we are compensated for that in other areas. So in an ideal setting, I would prefer to be a glass cannon, since we can reallocate that deficiency to a proficiency somewhere else in his kit.

===============================================


This is the total scope of buffs I can see as logical. Again, I'm not saying they all will/should get in; but if I was asked to list all buffs I think Mewtwo could/should justifiably have, these would be it. If it was just purely what I wanted, you already know I'm putting in floating + acting out of Teleport like PM.

I plan on trying to be more active here because I decided to commit and attempt to advance the metagame for one of my favorite characters ever.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Mewtwo isn't heavy reliant on his throw game. In fact I could say the exact opposite. How is he reliant on throws at all? He's much more reliant on his tilts. MUCH more reliant.

Then I must not be using Mewtwo the way it was designed to be used. I've often been too grab reliant with Mewtwo, which is something that I don't do very much with most of the Smash 4 fighters; there are a few more fighters whom I've done grab attempts with frequently (one of which is Rosalina), but their grab usage is not as high as with Mewtwo.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Then I must not be using Mewtwo the way it was designed to be used. I've often been too grab reliant with Mewtwo, which is something that I don't do very much with most of the Smash 4 fighters; there are a few more fighters whom I've done grab attempts with frequently (one of which is Rosalina), but their grab usage is not as high as with Mewtwo.

His grab game is good, but not as good as most. It isn't bad to use Fthrow and Dthrow a lot. Fthrow deals good damage and Dthrow gives you a disadvantaged state.

Gimj your list is pretty good. But I would suggest reading my guides before suggesting some things. The one thing I don't want Nintendo to do is fix Utilts hitboxes. Their combos are amazing and we might lose his kill combo.

A couple of the moves seen as "bad" are actually really good. They just have specific uses that aren't obvious. Uair has kill combos, Utilt has kill combos.

 

[Furret24]

His grab game is good, but not as good as most. It isn't bad to use Fthrow and Dthrow a lot. Fthrow deals good damage and Dthrow gives you a disadvantaged state.

Gimj your list is pretty good. But I would suggest reading my guides before suggesting some things. The one thing I don't want Nintendo to do is fix Utilts hitboxes. Their combos are amazing and we might lose his kill combo.

A couple of the moves seen as "bad" are actually really good. They just have specific uses that aren't obvious. Uair has kill combos, Utilt has kill combos.

Uair has kill combos?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Uair has kill combos?

Dtilt-Uair-Fair

FF Uair-Fair

FF-Uair-Usmash

Jab-Utilt-Usmash

Dtilt-Fair-Fair-Fair kills Fox at 27%

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm a Mewtwo main that hasn't really participated on these forums but I've lurked here every so often. With the Final Presentation coming up, I just want to give my opinions on sensible buffs that would make him much more competitively viable before the end comes. I do not expect all or any of these buffs(hype is made perfect in pessimism), but I honestly think all these buffs could be given to the character without being unhealthy. Take from this what you will(some things are not balance related).

Bolded = I think he needs it
Non-bold = Buff that doesn't seem to be serious need, but an area that could help push him into the upper tier.

My Patch Notes:

Jab:
- Comes out 1 frame earlier.
- Multi-hit links 1 frame earlier.
- Multi-hit links much better(in line with most characters).
*Prevents being so easily escapable/useless at higher percents.

Forward-Tilt:
- Comes out 1-2 frames earlier.
Why: This skill is just so slow for no reason I can decipher. Mewtwo need to space efficiently and this just barely helps the cause.

Up-Tilt:
- More consistent/distinguishable hitboxes for weak/strong hits.
- Comes out 2 frames earlier.

Why: I'm not 100% about this ability because I don't really implement it in my game. It seems too slow to use on a consistent basis, especially when D-Tilt is much faster.

Down-Tilt:
- Attack animation overhauled. Remade to not look more graceful/effortless rather than tryhard/weird.
- Knockback scaling reduced very slightly.
* Allows for easier follow ups for longer.


Forward Smash:
- Range increased slightly(to about Disable's range).
- Comes out 2 frames earlier.
- Whiffing issues at point-blank fixed.
Why: Gives a more distinct utility/reason to use it over Down Smash.

Down Smash:
- Ending lag reduced by ? frames.
Why: Make it absolutely safe on shield by whatever frames necessary(it might be totally safe atm, need verification), distinct from Forward Smash.

Aerials:

Neutral Air:
- Hitbox near feet/in general enlarged slightly.
*Short hop Nair can actually affect short characters consistently without requiring Mewtwo to be literally on top of them.
- Landing with this move mid-way now forces the finishing hit of Nair(like Melee).
OR
- Landing lag reduced by ? frames
* Enough so fast falling/landing mid-Nair gives Mewtwo the frame advantage.
- Easier way of manipulating/predicating Nair knockback.


Forward Air:
- Landing lag reduced by 2-3 frames.
- Hit-box extended/enlarged a bit downwards on the y-axis.

Why: Actually makes it a reliable way of approaching/pressuring shield even on short characters instead of outright missing them. Gives Mewtwo an easier time comboing and helps his offense immensely. As someone who thinks Mewtwo should be able to be played offensively, I'm heavily favoring this type of buff. Short-hop fair should work on everyone, not just tall/average height characters.

Up-Air:
- Ending lag reduced by 2 frames.
- Hitboxes for weak/stonger hits more prominent/easier to distinguish.
*Rising Claw combo more reliable.
- Hitbox wonkiness fixed.

Why: Help juggle/combo more reliably.

Back Air:
- Comes out 2 frames earlier.
- Hitbox now extended/enlarged on the y-axis.
*Now properly hits enemies from a short hop.


Ledge Attack:
- Animation overhaul. Changed to Melee or replaced with a psychic-esque attack
- Hit box fixed so it doesn't miss smaller opponents like Pikachu directly on the lip of the stage because they end up behind Mewtwo.

Grab/Throws:

Grab:
- Hitbox slightly increased on standing/dash grab.
*Prevents short character jank.

Down Throw:
- Animation overhaul. Now lifts opponent telekinetically and slams them on ground(or something like that).
- Knockback angle closer to 180 degrees, sets up tech chases reliably(or something useful).

Forward Throw:
- The Shadow Balls have set knockback so they consistently link properly on the thrown opponent. The last Shadow Ball does not have the set knockback. Yoshi cannot jump out of this anymore.

Specials:

Teleport/Up-B:
- Now properly intangible during startup.
- Landing lag+ending lag reduced significantly.
- Sweet spots ledge reliably.
* Speed is such that is a superior/equivalent option to rolling(like Melee).
-? Teleport-bouncing collision reduced on problem stages.

Shadow Ball/Neutral-B:
- Non-charge/"baby" Shadow Ball's charge-and-release phase is slightly faster(1-3 frames).

Confusion:
- Startup reduced by 2 frames.

Disable:
- Sends facing aerial opponents into free-fall.
- Sends non-facing aerial opponents away(what current[1.1.2] facing Disable does).
- Special case of abnormally high shield damage and/or shield stun.
- Stunned duration increased at lower-percentages.

Why: Self-explanatory, but Disable should be usable. In its current form it is nigh impossible to find a solid niche to use it in. It is too high risk-low reward. The above fixes that in a logical way in my opinion. Also, I'm of the opinion that Mewtwo's big weakness in his weight is okay as long as we are compensated for that in other areas. So in an ideal setting, I would prefer to be a glass cannon, since we can reallocate that deficiency to a proficiency somewhere else in his kit.

===============================================


This is the total scope of buffs I can see as logical. Again, I'm not saying they all will/should get in; but if I was asked to list all buffs I think Mewtwo could/should justifiably have, these would be it. If it was just purely what I wanted, you already know I'm putting in floating + acting out of Teleport like PM.

I plan on trying to be more active here because I decided to commit and attempt to advance the metagame for one of my favorite characters ever.

Well, if you're trying to advance his metagame, this is honestly a terrible first step.

The multihit works fast enough if you don't delay, and Mewtwo generally gets much more out of just the first hit anyway.

Ftilt's slower than dtilt because it can kill at very late percents and is active for a surprisingly long time.

You think redoing the animation for dtilt and dthrow are essential just because they look dumb?

Increasing fair's hitbox size won't make it any less safe as an approach. Devs aren't going to overhaul a character they made just to please a few fan's interpretations of how he should be. Mewtwo isn't aggressive, and that's fine.

Teleport doesn't bounce more than any other warping move, the issue lies with Mewtwo's weird jump physics making people misspace it.

Disable's niche is Mewtwo's strongest punish when it comes to getting a kill. It may be tough to land but it's a dang sight better than Warlock Punch or Jet Hammer in this regard.

People didn't advance Mewtwo's Melee metagame by complaining, and it won't here either.

 

[420quickscoper]

Is there really a point to this thread anymore? I mean, come on. I don't know if some of you guys realized it or not, but the reason Mewtwo isn't going up the tier lists isn't because of no buffs. It's because of threads like this.

We've spent about 16 pages on this one. One of the longest threads on the Mewtwo boards. That's ridiculous. That's basically telling me that we wait for buffs more than we develop his metagame.

I know I have been commenting on here quite a bit, but I'm not here to complain about buffs.
This thread serves absolutely no purpose. It does not help Mewtwo's metagame, nor does it actually increase the chance of him getting buffs.

Want Mewtwo to be better? So do I. But if you seriously think that this is going to get Mewtwo higher up...

That's just ridiculous, preposterous and overall plain stupid and every conceivable way.

If you want to complain about buffs, complain somewhere else. But as long as you're helping out that's good.

I'm not exactly one of the more helpful Mewtwo's out there, and yes, I do comment on this thread quite a bit. That still does not excuse the fact that this thread is basically pointless.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Is there really a point to this thread anymore?

Not after the Smash Direct, but that won't be until Tuesday.

 

[meleebrawler]

Is there really a point to this thread anymore?

No, there really isn't. People will keep on posting suggestions for buffs in a vain attempt to make Mewtwo better without having to work with him until the bitter end when patches stop coming. And at that point it may be too late anyway.

 

[Furret24]

Dtilt-Uair-Fair

FF Uair-Fair

FF-Uair-Usmash

Jab-Utilt-Usmash

Dtilt-Fair-Fair-Fair kills Fox at 27%

Those last two don't involve uair. :|

Are those first three and final ones true or do they require reading your opponent?

 

[420quickscoper]

Those last two don't involve uair. :|

Are those first three and final ones true or do they require reading your opponent?

They're all true. Maybe not for Jab up tilt up smash. That's not true, but in no way is it easily escapable. You'll get hit by it most of the time.

Not after the Smash Direct, but that won't be until Tuesday.

I don't know if Mewtwo will get any buffs. Hitbox stuff is what I'm looking forward to.

No, there really isn't. People will keep on posting suggestions for buffs in a vain attempt to make Mewtwo better without having to work with him until the bitter end when patches stop coming. And at that point it may be too late anyway.

Kind of disappointing when people complain about a character's tier list spot and want him to get better, but then you realize that they're the reason Mewtwo's not getting better.

(insert OOOHHHHHHH here)

Sonicninja115

I don't think hitbox changes would be good. I love up tilt as it is, of course. But what I think people want is a hitbox that hits behind him. He does not really have a move that can hit from the back.

 

[meleebrawler]

To add onto uair, it's great for setting up traps due to it's low knockback, or psyching out the opponent into airdodging so that you may usmash them. It has enough range and damage to do this.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Ftilt's slower than dtilt because it can kill at very late percents and is active for a surprisingly long time

Only the former is true.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Mewtwo
Ftilt is active for 2 frames, which is about the same as Dtilt. Can still kill I guess if you space it right.

 

[meleebrawler]

Only the former is true.
http://kuroganehammer.com/Smash4/Mewtwo
Ftilt is active for 2 frames, which is about the same as Dtilt. Can still kill I guess if you space it right.

Mm. Must be the pivot utility tricking me (and the opponents running into it).

 

[Furret24]

Kind of disappointing when people complain about a character's tier list spot and want him to get better, but then you realize that they're the reason Mewtwo's not getting better.

(insert OOOHHHHHHH here)

Eh, don't worry. They'll start developing him once we stop getting balance patches and every character's abilities are set in stone.

Thanks for the "ooohh" by the way. It totally doesn't make you look pretentious.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Well, if you're trying to advance his metagame, this is honestly a terrible first step.

People didn't advance Mewtwo's Melee metagame by complaining, and it won't here either.

Also I'm gonna be real @ this post, look at the thread title. It's a suggestion for buffs thread and I don't think his goal when posting in here was to advance a metagame.

Now if he posted this in a topic not called "List of things to buff on Mewtwo" I'd be more in agreement but I think he's just posting in relation to the topic title. I don't mean to be rude but, yeah.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Furret24 they are all true. The Jab-Utilt is technically not, but it is enescapable. They can only DI out and there is a way to fix that. We are developing his Metagame. Me, Melee, 420, Metalex and now darklink are doing are best to expand it. It has grown considerably in the past two months and continues to grow at a fast pace.

420quickscoper Utilt actually has a back hit that combos into Bair, same with the front.

meleebrawler thanks for making the analysis, I was too tired to do it.

TTTTTsd he says at the bottom that he wants to advance Mewtwo's Metagame... Melee wasn't referring to the thread...

 

[Gimj]

Well, if you're trying to advance his metagame, this is honestly a terrible first step.

The multihit works fast enough if you don't delay, and Mewtwo generally gets much more out of just the first hit anyway.

Ftilt's slower than dtilt because it can kill at very late percents and is active for a surprisingly long time.

You think redoing the animation for dtilt and dthrow are essential just because they look dumb?

Increasing fair's hitbox size won't make it any less safe as an approach. Devs aren't going to overhaul a character they made just to please a few fan's interpretations of how he should be. Mewtwo isn't aggressive, and that's fine.

Teleport doesn't bounce more than any other warping move, the issue lies with Mewtwo's weird jump physics making people misspace it.

Disable's niche is Mewtwo's strongest punish when it comes to getting a kill. It may be tough to land but it's a dang sight better than Warlock Punch or Jet Hammer in this regard.

People didn't advance Mewtwo's Melee metagame by complaining, and it won't here either.

Well, not only have you missed the point of my post, most of your points are wrong. If you read again, you might notice a word called "My"at the beginning of the post.

1. Never claimed it didn't work.

2. Your Ftilt claim holds little to no merit as shown by TTTTTsd.

2. In my opinion, having moves that looks dumb overhauled is completely essential. Yes, I will argue that until the end of time. If you're fine with having moves that look dumb, that's totally fine with me. If my developers made Mario's grab animation a kiss, then I would deem it essential to change it. That's not balance-related and really doesn't matter, just an opinion I have and put. It's an idealization of my personal patch notes(to an extent), not the "Bible of How Mewtwo Should Be." Calm down. If you really think I have an expectation they will change any animation/graphic based on my opinions you must think I'm literally mentally disabled or insane.

3. Never claimed increasing the hitbox makes it more safe. Landing lag does. Also never claimed that devs would overhaul a character to please my interpretation. Technically, if the hitbox was increased x20 that would indeed make it safe so you're actually wrong.

4. Notice the ? mark, it implied it's not necessarily Mewtwo specific. Also, there are stages where the bouncing is still an issue, FD comes to mind.

5. Disable is Mewtwo's strongest punish? You just have to be joking; I refuse to take that statement as a legitimate response. I refuse because of the obvious falsehood by it. I really hope you're joking. I won't say anymore here unless you really aren't joking/trolling me.

6. I'm not complaining whatsoever, ironically, you're complaining about my post complaining apparently. So it seems that's a self-defeating statement. Me posting my ideal patch notes has absolutely ZERO to do with my efforts to advance the Mewtwo metagame. Just to give you some perspective, if Sakurai just called me before that post and said he will nerf everything Mewtwo has, I would still make that post. Now please do not make obviously illogical replies to me again, or at least think before making some tryhard critique on me.


And one last point, if you think I'm begging for Mewtwo buffs you're barking up the wrong tree. Apparently, only TTTTTsd can understand the post. I will play Mewtwo buffed or not, I find him fun so I play him. I don't care if he's the worst character in the game. I actually like being the underdog, personally.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Furret24 they are all true. The Jab-Utilt is technically not, but it is enescapable. They can only DI out and there is a way to fix that. We are developing his Metagame. Me, Melee, 420, Metalex and now darklink are doing are best to expand it. It has grown considerably in the past two months and continues to grow at a fast pace.

420quickscoper Utilt actually has a back hit that combos into Bair, same with the front.

meleebrawler thanks for making the analysis, I was too tired to do it.

TTTTTsd he says at the bottom that he wants to advance Mewtwo's Metagame... Melee wasn't referring to the thread...

I'm aware he did, but scolding someone for posting what their ideal patch changes would be in a thread about that is still scolding them for it and I don't think that's really fair.

Dude said he PLANS on it and is going to attempt to do so going forward, but he's literally just posting his dream changelog in a thread about posting it. Like, why would you critique him for not advancing the metagame when the point of his post was...not to do so?

Again, just observations.

 

[420quickscoper]

Eh, don't worry. They'll start developing him once we stop getting balance patches and every character's abilities are set in stone.

Thanks for the "ooohh" by the way. It totally doesn't make you look pretentious.

I was just joking

Eh, don't worry. They'll start developing him once we stop getting balance patches and every character's abilities are set in stone.

Thanks for the "ooohh" by the way. It totally doesn't make you look pretentious.

I was joking. Jeez.
(Yes it was a bad joke. That's the point, though.)

you don't look any better with all this sarcasm, do you?

 

[Sonicninja115]

Well, not only have you missed the point of my post, most of your points are wrong. If you read again, you might notice a word called "My"at the beginning of the post.

1. Never claimed it didn't work.

2. Your Ftilt claim holds little to no merit as shown by TTTTTsd.

2. In my opinion, having moves that looks dumb overhauled is completely essential. Yes, I will argue that until the end of time. If you're fine with having moves that look dumb, that's totally fine with me. If my developers made Mario's grab animation a kiss, then I would deem it essential to change it. That's not balance-related and really doesn't matter, just an opinion I have and put. It's an idealization of my personal patch notes(to an extent), not the "Bible of How Mewtwo Should Be." Calm down. If you really think I have an expectation they will change any animation/graphic based on my opinions you must think I'm literally mentally disabled or insane.

3. Never claimed increasing the hitbox makes it more safe. Landing lag does. Also never claimed that devs would overhaul a character to please my interpretation. Technically, if the hitbox was increased x20 that would indeed make it safe so you're actually wrong.

4. Notice the ? mark, it implied it's not necessarily Mewtwo specific. Also, there are stages where the bouncing is still an issue, FD comes to mind.

5. Disable is Mewtwo's strongest punish? You just have to be joking; I refuse to take that statement as a legitimate response. I refuse because of the obvious falsehood by it. I really hope you're joking. I won't say anymore here unless you really aren't joking/trolling me.

6. I'm not complaining whatsoever, ironically, you're complaining about my post complaining apparently. So it seems that's a self-defeating statement. Me posting my ideal patch notes has absolutely ZERO to do with my efforts to advance the Mewtwo metagame. Just to give you some perspective, if Sakurai just called me before that post and said he will nerf everything Mewtwo has, I would still make that post. Now please do not make obviously illogical replies to me again, or at least think before making some tryhard critique on me.

This is the funniest argue net I have read all day, no disrespect to either of you.

Disable is Mewtwo's strongest punish. Not his best, but definetly his strongest.

Ftilt can kill and was a longer hitbox move, it got nerfed. Dtilt-combo, Ftilt-Space/get away from me/kill. It isn't that slow for it's range, look at it's damage, it should probably be that slow.

Why do people still think he is the worst? He is definetly better then some characters...

 

[420quickscoper]

I'm aware he did, but scolding someone for posting what their ideal patch changes would be in a thread about that is still scolding them for it and I don't think that's really fair.

Dude said he PLANS on it and is going to attempt to do so going forward, but he's literally just posting his dream changelog in a thread about posting it. Like, why would you critique him for not advancing the metagame when the point of his post was...not to do so?

Again, just observations.

The real problem is that it's working against his metagame development. Also, what's the point of discussing buffs?

 

[TTTTTsd]

The real problem is that it's working against his metagame development. Also, what's the point of discussing buffs?

Dunno, but we're in a thread about it and it hasn't been closed soooooooooo.....

I don't really think he's halting anyone (maybe himself but he probably thought of all of this in advance, really), the only thing slowing anyone down who's working on it is, well, not working on it! Stuff like these threads exist in a lot of fighting games for a lot of perceived or otherwise weak characters, it just happens.

If someone asked me for a hypothetical Doc buffs list, I'd give it too. Doesn't mean I'm not working on developing/playing the character, but it'd just be a response into an inquiry.

 

[420quickscoper]

Dunno, but we're in a thread about it and it hasn't been closed soooooooooo.....

I don't really think he's halting anyone (maybe himself but he probably thought of all of this in advance, really), the only thing slowing anyone down who's working on it is, well, not working on it! Stuff like these threads exist in a lot of fighting games for a lot of perceived or otherwise weak characters, it just happens.

If someone asked me for a hypothetical Doc buffs list, I'd give it too. Doesn't mean I'm not working on developing/playing the character, but it'd just be a response into an inquiry.

I mean, it is technically slowing people down, still. But I like your thinking. Cheers. You may be right.
I love opinions :3

Anyways.
I just don't really know if the thread is really doing anything, though. It allows for discussion, but when your aim is to get buffs into the game, it does't help, really.

 

[Sonicninja115]

The real problem is that it's working against his metagame development. Also, what's the point of discussing buffs?

It's fine for him to post his ideal buffs list. This is just a speculation thread, I am only posting here to get rid of misinformation. Melee was fine in critiquing the list, why shouldn't he? But he apparently got mad at Gimj because he posted it while wanting to advance the meta.

If I made a buffs list I would want people to critique it, so here we go.

Usmash- longer ground hitbox and maybe a bit lower FAF.

Dsmash- 3 frames less FAF, it would make it completely safe on shield.

Fsmash-Fine

Dtilt-fine

Ftilt- pretty good, a bit faster maybe.

Utilt- better back hit.

Jab- fine, maybe make it rue into Dtilt 10% earlier?

DA- make it's combos a bit easier.

Confusion- fine

Disable- a bit less ending lag, 5 frames less?

Teleport- fine

SB- a bit too fine

Fair- fine

Bair- extend the hitbox slightly, not all the way, but enough to get a sweetspot on a grounded opponent.

Uair- fine

Dair- fine

Nair- make the hitbox come out a couple of frames faster

 

[420quickscoper]

It's fine for him to post his ideal buffs list. This is just a speculation thread, I am only posting here to get rid of misinformation. Melee was fine in critiquing the list, why shouldn't he? But he apparently got mad at Gimj because he posted it while wanting to advance the meta.

If I made a buffs list I would want people to critique it, so here we go.

Usmash- longer ground hitbox and maybe a bit lower FAF.

Dsmash- 3 frames less FAF, it would make it completely safe on shield.

Fsmash-Fine

Dtilt-fine

Ftilt- pretty good, a bit faster maybe.

Utilt- better back hit.

Jab- fine, maybe make it rue into Dtilt 10% earlier?

DA- make it's combos a bit easier.

Confusion- fine

Disable- a bit less ending lag, 5 frames less?

Teleport- fine

SB- a bit too fine

Fair- fine

Bair- extend the hitbox slightly, not all the way, but enough to get a sweetspot on a grounded opponent.

Uair- fine

Dair- fine

Nair- make the hitbox come out a couple of frames faster

Interesting.

Now, then..

 

[---]

I've debated about closing this, but it's seemed relatively harmless and Mewtwo does have flaws that people seem to feel the need to vent about. ourweightisnevergoingtochangethough

The game is still technically in development as well. I do agree that more focus should be on making the best out of what we have, but buff/nerf talk is something that's always going to come up (even the Competitive Impressions thread has lightly discussed them), and it's better here than in the actual metagame/match up threads.

If we are looking at the final patch this coming week, this thread will definitely be locked.

 

[Gimj]

This is the funniest argue net I have read all day, no disrespect to either of you.

Disable is Mewtwo's strongest punish. Not his best, but definetly his strongest.

Ftilt can kill and was a longer hitbox move, it got nerfed. Dtilt-combo, Ftilt-Space/get away from me/kill. It isn't that slow for it's range, look at it's damage, it should probably be that slow.

Why do people still think he is the worst? He is definetly better then some characters...

So a Ganon just whiffed his Warlock Punch in front of you with 10%. What do you use, Disable or something else? What about 20%? 30%? 40%? Disable only becomes remotely good if they have absurd percentage,in which case you probably can just Up-throw or Smash them. Calling Disable "strong" is like saying Warlock Punch is among Ganon's "strongest" moves. And if you're talking in that sense, it probably doesn't matter.

F-Tilt kills Lucario at 140% right at the very edge of FD. I wouldn't call it a good kill move by any means, which is why I still think it's too slow for no good reason. You have to realize speed is a part of being a good [killing]move. Otherwise, Warlock Punch would be one of the best "killing" move in the game. We don't talk like that in competitive discussion. Strong /= Powerful

I don't think Mewtwo is the worst character, for sure. I would definitely agree. But saying he doesn't need buffs may be a bit too hipster.

The real problem is that it's working against his metagame development. Also, what's the point of discussing buffs?

Why do people speculate about Smash?

Me posting this doesn't hinder metagame development,that post doesn't have a gun to Mewtwo players saying "Don't go to tournaments and don't play Mewtwo or I'll shoot you."

 

[Sonicninja115]

I've debated about closing this, but it's seemed relatively harmless and Mewtwo does have flaws that people seem to feel the need to vent about. ourweightisnevergoingtochangethough

The game is still technically in development as well. I do agree that more focus should be on making the best out of what we have, but buff/nerf talk is something that's always going to come up (even the Competitive Impressions thread has lightly discussed them), and it's better here than in the actual metagame/match up threads.

If we are looking at the final patch this coming week, this thread will definitely be locked.

There will probably be a couple of patches to balance the DLC.

So a Ganon just whiffed his Warlock Punch in front of you with 10%. What do you use, Disable or something else? What about 20%? 30%? 40%? Disable only becomes remotely good if they have absurd percentage,in which case you probably can just Up-throw or Smash them. Calling Disable "strong" is like saying Warlock Punch is among Ganon's "strongest" moves. And if you're talking in that sense, it probably doesn't matter.

F-Tilt kills Lucario at 140% right at the very edge of FD. I wouldn't call it a good kill move by any means, which is why I still think it's too slow for no good reason. You have to realize speed is a part of being a good [killing]move. Otherwise, Warlock Punch would be one of the best "killing" move in the game. We don't talk like that in competitive discussion. Strong /= Powerful

I don't think Mewtwo is the worst character, for sure. I would definitely agree. But saying he doesn't need buffs may be a bit too hipster.




Why do people speculate about Smash?

Me posting this doesn't hinder metagame development,that post doesn't have a gun to Mewtwo players saying "Don't go to tournaments and don't play Mewtwo or I'll shoot you."

Disable is a good option at twenty plus. It allows for the proper Dtilt positioning to get a solid 30% combo without stating a smash. It really depends on the lag of the opponents move, as it does have a 15 frame start-up. Disable allows a free anything at 20%, certainly the optimal punish if possible, but grabs are usually the most used as it is faster.

Did you have rage? It isn't a good kill move that you should plan for. It is a last resort. Sorta like Upthrow.

Did I say he doesn't need buffs?

 

[Smashifer]

I've debated about closing this, but it's seemed relatively harmless and Mewtwo does have flaws that people seem to feel the need to vent about. ourweightisnevergoingtochangethough

The game is still technically in development as well. I do agree that more focus should be on making the best out of what we have, but buff/nerf talk is something that's always going to come up (even the Competitive Impressions thread has lightly discussed them), and it's better here than in the actual metagame/match up threads.

If we are looking at the final patch this coming week, this thread will definitely be locked.

Sounds like a plan. There's gonna be some updates to characters when the DLC rolls around on the 15th or whenever it may be. Crossin' fingers for my main man Mewtwo.

Dtilt-Uair-Fair

FF Uair-Fair

FF-Uair-Usmash

Could you possibly give me the percents for these? Or maybe link me to a thread containing them? This is really cool seeing as I never knew that uair had the ability to combo.

Also, is anyone else not getting notified of threads they are watching? This has happened to me several times already and I'm wondering if it's happened to anyone else too.

 

[Gimj]

There will probably be a couple of patches to balance the DLC.

Disable is a good option at twenty plus. It allows for the proper Dtilt positioning to get a solid 30% combo without stating a smash. It really depends on the lag of the opponents move, as it does have a 15 frame start-up. Disable allows a free anything at 20%, certainly the optimal punish if possible, but grabs are usually the most used as it is faster.

Did you have rage? It isn't a good kill move that you should plan for. It is a last resort. Sorta like Upthrow.

Did I say he doesn't need buffs?

I'd love to see some footage of Mewtwo players using Disable as a casual punish like you seem to be presenting it. You are right, it does depend on the lag of the opponents move. But that's my point...Disable isn't in a vacuum. And in a competitive environment, how much time do you think you really have on average to punish? Sure, I can go on FG right now and land a Disable but that means nothing. If you show me evidence of Disable being implemented as a consistent punish on (a) player(s) of competence I will agree. It's obvious Disable isn't a strong move(I mean good move, like Shiek's fair), it is a bad move. That's my overall point, of course you have crazy options if you land it, but that's a huge if.

Nope not you specifically, just people in general criticizing personal theoretical posts about Mewtwo buffs.

^Look critics, viable metagame discussion about Disable as a punish option above as a direct consequence of my post! Who'da thunk.

 

[Furret24]

Dtilt-Uair-Fair

FF Uair-Fair

FF-Uair-Usmash

Jab-Utilt-Usmash

Dtilt-Fair-Fair-Fair kills Fox at 27%

None of those first three are true. They're barley even strings.

Jab -> Utilt -> Usmash is true at certain percents though, which is nice.

Dtilt -> 3x Fair is not a true combo. Forx can easily jump or nair out of it.

In other words, no. Uair is not a combo move, nor does it have "kill combos".

Jab, utilt, and dtilt are solid combo moves though.

I was just joking

I was joking. Jeez.
(Yes it was a bad joke. That's the point, though.)

you don't look any better with all this sarcasm, do you?

Terrible joke. If you're going to make a joke purposely bad, atleast make it funny.

Sarcasm doesn't work if you already act that way all the time by the way.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I'd love to see some footage of Mewtwo players using Disable as a casual punish like you seem to be presenting it. You are right, it does depend on the lag of the opponents move. But that's my point...Disable isn't in a vacuum. And in a competitive environment, how much time do you think you really have on average to punish? Sure, I can go on FG right now and land a Disable but that means nothing. If you show me evidence of Disable being implemented as a consistent punish on (a) player(s) of competence I will agree. It's obvious Disable isn't a strong move(I mean good move, like Shiek's fair), it is a bad move. That's my overall point, of course you have crazy options if you land it, but that's a huge if.

Nope not you specifically, just people in general criticizing personal theoretical posts about Mewtwo buffs.

^Look critics, viable metagame discussion about Disable as a punish option above as a direct consequence of my post! Who'da thunk.

Disable is a punish option. It comes out frame fifteen and can be jump cancelled, thus, allowing it to be used OoS. (5-6 frames faster)

It is also a read option. If you notice the opponent likes to do a grounded approach it is quite useful.

Mew squared uses it occasionally, pretty much the amount it should be used. At a high level no one is going to release something that punishable often, thus it is best used as a link/read.

Chances are that the opponent won't remember disable and will fall straight into it.

It is also a mix-up option. If you run into the same scenario three times during a match and you go for a grab each time, a competent opponent will realize this and react with a spot dodge. You can mix him up and go for the disable.

Also, disable can stun a persons feet. SH disable will stun people on the above platform, it might even shieldpoke. You can also just use SH disable to give it more length.

Dtilt-DJ Uair-Fair/Uair/Bair is a true combo at different Percents. I have it in the combo thread with the actual percent window.

The Jab on the Utilt-Usmash combo isn't true. It will never count on the counter. Only the Utilt-Usmash is. However, you can't escape the Jab-Utilt. Frame 2or something.

Dtilt-Fair-Fair-Fair is a true combo, I have done it and practiced it. Dtilt-Fair-Fair- DJ Fair. this combo works to some degree on fast fallers. Mainly Fox, it is very situational thus I didn't test it on CF.

FF Uair trues into many things, including Uair, jab, Usmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, Utilt, Bair, Fair. Their are multiple hitboxes and you have to hit with a certain one.

Meleebrawler, can tell you about these. Metalex can tell you about these. Raykz made a freaking video showcasing it. Maybe you should check the combo thread Furret24 ?

Edit: Smashifer did you see the combo video of Nairo's Mewtwo? It shows one of the combos there. Also, it is in the combo thread, read through it as there are many combos and theories in there.

 

[Gimj]

Disable is a punish option. It comes out frame fifteen and can be jump cancelled, thus, allowing it to be used OoS. (5-6 frames faster)

It is also a read option. If you notice the opponent likes to do a grounded approach it is quite useful.

Mew squared uses it occasionally, pretty much the amount it should be used. At a high level no one is going to release something that punishable often, thus it is best used as a link/read.

Chances are that the opponent won't remember disable and will fall straight into it.

It is also a mix-up option. If you run into the same scenario three times during a match and you go for a grab each time, a competent opponent will realize this and react with a spot dodge. You can mix him up and go for the disable.

Also, disable can stun a persons feet. SH disable will stun people on the above platform, it might even shieldpoke. You can also just use SH disable to give it more length.

Dtilt-DJ Uair-Fair/Uair/Bair is a true combo at different Percents. I have it in the combo thread with the actual percent window.

The Jab on the Utilt-Usmash combo isn't true. It will never count on the counter. Only the Utilt-Usmash is. However, you can't escape the Jab-Utilt. Frame 2or something.

Dtilt-Fair-Fair-Fair is a true combo, I have done it and practiced it. Dtilt-Fair-Fair- DJ Fair. this combo works to some degree on fast fallers. Mainly Fox, it is very situational thus I didn't test it on CF.

FF Uair trues into many things, including Uair, jab, Usmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, Utilt, Bair, Fair. Their are multiple hitboxes and you have to hit with a certain one.

Meleebrawler, can tell you about these. Metalex can tell you about these. Raykz made a freaking video showcasing it. Maybe you should check the combo thread Furret24 ?

Edit: Smashifer did you see the combo video of Nairo's Mewtwo? It shows one of the combos there. Also, it is in the combo thread, read through it as there are many combos and theories in there.

I appreciate your explanation and all of that may be valid but that still doesn't make me see it as particularly good. Most of the things you've said can be done with virtually any move. Yes I know, disable true combos into any move but it has an inherent risk of being laggy which dissuades use of it over standard/faster punish options. Disable puts you at risk as well. Shieldpoking on platforms is better with the faster Up-Smash where it can reach. It's a nice little trick to keep in mind I guess, but how hard will you punish someone on a platform above you while you're in midair? Disable is an option, but I'm not convinced it is the best/a reliable option in virtually any circumstance.

 

[meleebrawler]

I just wanted to make it clear that discussing buffs isn't the way to advance a metagame. As long as Gimj knows this, we're cool.

Disable isn't a staple move, but you can't deny it's power when it allows you to kill the likes of Bowser under 100% easily for whiffing any remotely unsafe attack.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I appreciate your explanation and all of that may be valid but that still doesn't make me see it as particularly good. Most of the things you've said can be done with virtually any move. Yes I know, disable true combos into any move but it has an inherent risk of being laggy which dissuades use of it over standard/faster punish options. Disable puts you at risk as well. Shieldpoking on platforms is better with the faster Up-Smash where it can reach. It's a nice little trick to keep in mind I guess, but how hard will you punish someone on a platform above you while you're in midair? Disable is an option, but I'm not convinced it is the best/a reliable option in virtually any circumstance.

I made sure to say it was situational. I would explain any move this way, I am just trying to show it's strengths. The shieldpoke is just a way to set it up. Usmash isn't a safe option on a platform opponent. It is pretty punishable with it's 20% frames without a hitbox. Disable is just safer then Usmash.

Also, I will eventually make an article showcasing the pros and cons of Disable.