List of things to buff Mewtwo

[HakuryuVision]

Agreed.
Upthrow killing at around 140% is nice and all, but doesn't make up for Mewtwo's terrible grab-range/box.

-And it wouldn't make him OP or unbalanced either.

 

[meleebrawler]

Agreed.
Upthrow killing at around 140% is nice and all, but doesn't make up for Mewtwo's terrible grab-range/box.

-And it wouldn't make him OP or unbalanced either.

This isn't about Mewtwo's grab hitbox. But even then it's explained by Confusion existing. And be glad it also doesn't lag like Ganon's or Robin's.

Think about it. Most characters with unusually short grabs have longer-ranged command grabs.

But unlike Robin and Ganondorf, who are super slow and thus makes getting grabs even harder, Mewtwo has good mobility and normals that are quite fast for their range, and have the added benefit of leading to combos.

Why is it so hard to understand that getting a grab is NOT the priority when playing Mewtwo? Just because he doesn't get true followups from grabs like 50% of the roster does not make him dysfunctional, his throws just serve a different role of creating space. They didn't buff fthrow for nothing.

Honestly, even getting combos isn't the primary focus with Mewtwo, that's just a bonus. His real forte is in spacing.

I dunno about all of you guys, but I'd rather have Mewtwo be a low tier character who's fun to watch and play than a high tier character who spams the same combo over and over and over.

This right here summarizes what makes Mewtwo interesting. If you'd rather get your combos from throws like almost everybody else, then you can look elsewhere, because that's not how Mewtwo rolls.

Finally, even if dthrow ends up comboing, it won't last long. Such a thing may work extremely well with some characters, but the only benefit Mewtwo would get is racking damage somewhat faster at the start.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

This right here summarizes what makes Mewtwo interesting. If you'd rather get your combos from throws like almost everybody else, then you can look elsewhere, because that's not how Mewtwo rolls

I often find that when I take advantage of somebody's mistake and get a small combo off its very satisfactory. Mewtwo does have combos that can be utilized, they're just very brief.

 

[godogod]

The end lag for down throw just needs to be shorter.

 

[Ryusuta]

Why is it so hard to understand that getting a grab is NOT the priority when playing Mewtwo? Just because he doesn't get true followups from grabs like 50% of the roster does not make him dysfunctional

The problem is that what Mewtwo has right now is not enough. It flat-out isn't. There is seriously no legitimate reason to NOT give him a little more versatility with more setups. They fixed Charizard's throws and they can do the same for Mewtwo's down throw. He still has all of the other stuff he does, but you have to flat-out hate the idea of him getting better if you're legitimately arguing against him having a better array of setups.

The pretense that "he shouldn't be focusing on getting grabs" is ridiculous. The reason that Mewtwos don't focus on grabs right now isn't just because his grab range is buggy as hell and it sure as HELL isn't that he has amazing setups without it. It's just that his grabs don't lead into anything. Fix his grab's broken hitbox and give him a setup off of his down throw and you'll see more Mewtwo players utilize his grab game.

...You might also see him crawl his way out of the gutter in terms of tournament results.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Mewtwo ig just needs to be more reliable. It makes no sense that the character with telekinetic powers has such a small grab range and yet still have such great throws, once he manages to make use of them. I don't see how Confusion justifies his short grab range, given that its more useful as a defensive tool and has very little combo options.

Even if the only change was making D-Throw a combo throw, Mewtwo would be much better.

 

[meleebrawler]

The problem is that what Mewtwo has right now is not enough. It flat-out isn't. There is seriously no legitimate reason to NOT give him a little more versatility with more setups. They fixed Charizard's throws and they can do the same for Mewtwo's down throw. He still has all of the other stuff he does, but you have to flat-out hate the idea of him getting better if you're legitimately arguing against him having a better array of setups.

The pretense that "he shouldn't be focusing on getting grabs" is ridiculous. The reason that Mewtwos don't focus on grabs right now isn't just because his grab range is buggy as hell and it sure as HELL isn't that he has amazing setups without it. It's just that his grabs don't lead into anything. Fix his grab's broken hitbox and give him a setup off of his down throw and you'll see more Mewtwo players utilize his grab game.

...You might also see him crawl his way out of the gutter in terms of tournament results.

Charizard is close range only, so of course he gets more potent grab combos. In fact that applies to pretty much every heavy: because they have no ranged capability their close quarters tools have to be powerful to compensate.

It's not that I'm against the idea of a combo throw, but the notion that Mewtwo is a terrible character for not having one is silly and honestly it's impact would be overrated. It'd be like Ness: can get some strings at low percents, but stops working very fast and ultimately isn't as damaging as it seems (and more often than not, only slightly more damaging than fthrow).

In fact most of the buffs suggested in this thread would have a smaller impact than they're made out to be, whether due to the fact that they don't fundamentally change Mewtwo's real competitive issues or would only make him slightly easier to play without actually making him better (hitboxes and the like).

There's no denying that any of those would be appreciated, but don't act like any one of them is going to magically make him viable. Samus mains are quite aware of their character's status and issues but that doesn't stop them from continuing to work hard to find new tools and techniques instead of lamenting for buffs.

Ryu and Fox have like next to no grab followups but are widely considered great.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Charizard is close range only, so of course he gets more potent grab combos. In fact that applies to pretty much every heavy: because they have no ranged capability their close quarters tools have to be powerful to compensate.

It's not that I'm against the idea of a combo throw, but the notion that Mewtwo is a terrible character for not having one is silly and honestly it's impact would be overrated. It'd be like Ness: can get some strings at low percents, but stops working very fast and ultimately isn't as damaging as it seems (and more often than not, only slightly more damaging than fthrow).

Ryu and Fox have like next to no grab followups but are widely considered great.

I mean, neither of those characters need them. Ryu does Ganondorf tier damage except his mobility is above average, and he has his combo gimmick. Fox is Fox, has amazing frame data and neutral, really good strings, awesome autocancel windows and fantastic kill power on the moves that he does kill with. Mewtwo, outside of his grabs, has a really nice low % combo game with Dtilt and Jab, but it starts to fade away once % tacks on in the mid range and he has to start aiming for vertical followups in the air since I feel like that's a relative blindspot for the character.

Fox also has like, a CRAZY boosted pivot grab that goes like 1/3 of FD (whoa).

I think Mewtwo's D-Throw is kind of undertuned a little myself (I feel like it's lacking as a mixup throw, feel like it sends people too far away to force anything meaningful esp. if they just DI out and jump, perhaps if they made it into a techchase throw or a close-up mixup throw that didn't lose to jumping away it'd be better), but if they changed it into this combo throw that everyone wants it'd also have to lose some of its damage (9% is actually really good for a throw, and considering Yoshi can armor DJ out of F-Throw and certain chars can SDI out, sometimes it's the go to). I do feel like if they wanted to make Mewtwo a bit better they could easily re-work his D-Throw because I only see it as some damage and a very bad mixup because once they start jumping and not airdodging the option tree vanishes.

I do think a combo throw alone wouldn't change this character alone, I agree. His grab boxes are still not good and he wouldn't really lose any of his other problems.

 

[meleebrawler]

I mean, neither of those characters need them. Ryu does Ganondorf tier damage except his mobility is above average, and he has his combo gimmick. Fox is Fox, has amazing frame data and neutral, really good strings, awesome autocancel windows and fantastic kill power on the moves that he does kill with. Mewtwo, outside of his grabs, has a really nice low % combo game with Dtilt and Jab, but it starts to fade away once % tacks on in the mid range and he has to start aiming for vertical followups in the air since I feel like that's a relative blindspot for the character.

Fox also has like, a CRAZY boosted pivot grab that goes like 1/3 of FD (whoa).

I think Mewtwo's D-Throw is kind of undertuned a little myself (I feel like it's lacking as a mixup throw, feel like it sends people too far away to force anything meaningful esp. if they just DI out and jump, perhaps if they made it into a techchase throw or a close-up mixup throw that didn't lose to jumping away it'd be better), but if they changed it into this combo throw that everyone wants it'd also have to lose some of its damage (9% is actually really good for a throw, and considering Yoshi can armor DJ out of F-Throw and certain chars can SDI out, sometimes it's the go to). I do feel like if they wanted to make Mewtwo a bit better they could easily re-work his D-Throw because I only see it as some damage and a very bad mixup because once they start jumping and not airdodging the option tree vanishes.

I do think a combo throw alone wouldn't change this character alone, I agree. His grab boxes are still not good and he wouldn't really lose any of his other problems.

I suggested before that dthrow could be changed to be a semi-spike to set up better tech chases and edgeguards. As it is right now it works better as a mixup with platforms.

His combos not working as well outside low percents (though he does he kill setups involving jab, utilt and usmash), to me just highlights what he's really doing: spacing like a swordsman. Oh, and of course he has that giant ball of doom. But if you still cannot stomach not being able to approach as you please or comboing left and right, perhaps Samus would be a better fit.

I honestly doubt that Mewtwo will ever become super viable the way he is, buffs or no (high tier at best), but if nothing else he does work as a secondary against zoners.

 

[Ryusuta]

You don't seem to understand. A lack of setups is one of Mewtwo's primary issues. He just doesn't get enough out of his pokes. And yes, a down throw change (as well as fixing his broken grab) WOULD significantly help Mewtwo.

I didn't say that giving him a better down throw is the be-all, end-all of making him viable. I'm saying that of all the individual changes that seem realistically plausible, that would probably be the best choice; even before increasing his weight.

Yes, Mewtwo has decent pokes and his down and up tilts set up to passable low-percent strings. But outside of those, he just doesn't rack up the percentages nearly as easily as a fair chunk of the rest of the cast.

To be clear once again: I'm NOT saying that fixing his throw game will instantly make him super incredible. I'm saying it's a fitting and realistic buff that would give him more options to work with.

 

[TTTTTsd]

I think if his attributes were fixed to better reflect the character and moveset he'd be a metric ton better. I think, as a spacing character, he really only lacks a few really important things.
- Damage/reward on fully spaced moves (Mewtwo's damage output is greatly magnified up close because of how his tail works.)
- His attributes. They're all good except for like, two. Air accel (you have to B reverse Side-B to change aerial momentum efficiently) and weight. The former is workable albeit not exactly desirable on a spacing character, the latter is mostly problematic depending on how the kit of the character is. Unfortunately dudeski has a big hurtbox and his kit seems tuned to be beneficial up close.

Really I just think his attributes are nutty. A lot of them are based off of like, Mario except for weight and air accel, with the former being REALLY unreasonably low for a hurtbox of his size. I know everyone brings it up but it really does stick out like a sore thumb when you look at his moveset and what he's supposed to do.

With attributes that line up bit better and like 2-3 moveset tweaks the character would probably be much better, but throughout this game's patch life I've never seen a core attribute of a character changed past launch so the likelihood of it ever happening is really low.

 

[meleebrawler]

You don't seem to understand. A lack of setups is one of Mewtwo's primary issues. He just doesn't get enough out of his pokes. And yes, a down throw change (as well as fixing his broken grab) WOULD significantly help Mewtwo.

I didn't say that giving him a better down throw is the be-all, end-all of making him viable. I'm saying that of all the individual changes that seem realistically plausible, that would probably be the best choice; even before increasing his weight.

Yes, Mewtwo has decent pokes and his down and up tilts set up to passable low-percent strings. But outside of those, he just doesn't rack up the percentages nearly as easily as a fair chunk of the rest of the cast.

To be clear once again: I'm NOT saying that fixing his throw game will instantly make him super incredible. I'm saying it's a fitting and realistic buff that would give him more options to work with.

Ask yourself: what can Mewtwo expect to follow up with out of a dthrow at low percents? And then later on? Not much, I'll wager.

I think if his attributes were fixed to better reflect the character and moveset he'd be a metric ton better. I think, as a spacing character, he really only lacks a few really important things.
- Damage/reward on fully spaced moves (Mewtwo's damage output is greatly magnified up close because of how his tail works.)
- His attributes. They're all good except for like, two. Air accel (you have to B reverse Side-B to change aerial momentum efficiently) and weight. The former is workable albeit not exactly desirable on a spacing character, the latter is mostly problematic depending on how the kit of the character is. Unfortunately dudeski has a big hurtbox and his kit seems tuned to be beneficial up close.

Really I just think his attributes are nutty. A lot of them are based off of like, Mario except for weight and air accel, with the former being REALLY unreasonably low for a hurtbox of his size. I know everyone brings it up but it really does stick out like a sore thumb when you look at his moveset and what he's supposed to do.

With attributes that line up bit better and like 2-3 moveset tweaks the character would probably be much better, but throughout this game's patch life I've never seen a core attribute of a character changed past launch so the likelihood of it ever happening is really low.

They probably just don't want him to do too much air-to ground spacing. Imagine what he could do with bair, even as slow as it is, if he had good aerial decel. And he actually has many more ways to change his trajectory than confusion; shadow ball (whether just the b-reverse or firing for the recoil) and teleport. Not to mention an airdodge that makes him invisible.

For what it's worth, fsmash does do more damage when well-spaced. The rest I treat like the sourspot/sweetspot dynamic Marth had in previous games: can get potentially more rewards up close, or just poke from safety. Except Mewtwo does less damage in this regard due to his projectile.

 

[Sonicninja115]

If he had true combos out of Dthrow, he would be a bit too good. It would be over balanced. He has good tech chaases out of Dthrow, and I think thats good enough.

His grabs aren't a core part of his metagame, its as simple as that.

(Note: they can still be used to reposition, damage, tech chase and kill.)

 

[Metalex]

If Mewtwo got a Dthrow that combos i would imagine these are some of the new combo options he'd theoretically get (with reasonably good Dthrow hitstun) just as an example:

Dthrow > Fair
Dthrow > fj Fair > Fair
Dthrow > JC Usmash
Dthrow > fj Nair > dj Bair / Fair
Dthrow > fj Uair
Dthrow > Dair
Dthrow > shff Nair > Regrab > Dthrow > sh Fair

Dthrow > Footstool > djc sbc > shadowball lock

Dthrow > dj Tipper Uair > Fair KO setup at high percents if the hitstun allows for it.

I would certainly not say no to a Dthrow change like this since it opens up more combo and followup possibilities even if mostly at low - mid percents, and it wouldn't be overcentralizing for Mewtwos game like it is for Falcon, Zss, prepatch Diddy and Luigi etc. ie it wouldn't be too powerful or invalidate his other throw options.

However, I also agree that this doesn't fix Mewtwo's core issues that prevents him from being a bigger tournament threat so there's many more important things the dev team needs to look at first. The thing is we don't know how the devteam thinks about character balance and Charizard got a similiar buff for his Dthrow so it feels like a Dthrow buff at least is a possibility.

I personally think fixing his grab hitbox/range is almost more important and would need to be adressed first in order for a Dthrow buff to have any significant impact as his grab works very poorly in it's current form at least in my opinion.

 

[meleebrawler]

I personally think fixing his grab hitbox/range is almost more important and would need to be adressed first in order for a Dthrow buff to have any significant impact as his dash grab works very poorly in it's current form at least in my opinion.

Really, his standing grab has decent forward range. Worst thing about it is the lack of vertical range, but that only really bites him in the *** in a small handful of matchups. It's just hampered slightly in it's OOS use by Mewtwo's lower traction. Dash grab is truly poor though, but at least Mewtwo has a good dash to work with.

Many characters seem to have this discrepancy of decent standing grab/terrible dash grab. Main ones including Palutena, Lucas and Roy.

 

[godogod]

FYI: Mewtwo has a longer grab range in melee, and it didn't whiff against short characters and during dash grabs. I don't think anyone is asking for him to be the best grabber.. Just something matching his grab in melee.

Would be nice if up throw killed 10% earlier IMO tbqh also.

 

[420quickscoper]

Okay, let's get this straight. A down throw is a good buff to make a character viable, but is it really the best choice for a buff?

According to my caculations, around 72% of this game has throw combos. Around 40 characters have throw combos.
And that is WAY too many.
The buff is overall very overused nowadays.
Let's think of the characters that got throw combo buffs:

Charizard
Kirby
Donkey Kong
Ganondorf
Ike
Link
Villager
and Robin.

Don't you think that's a bit overused?
There are many more ways to buff Mewtwo, not that he needs buffs, but if he really does need them then make them interesting for the love of god.


It would obviously give him more options, I totally agree with that. But this would make Mewtwo quite a bit easier to play, which I don't really want, and give him an uninteresting buff, which I don't want either.

What we need to focus on is the things he literally needs: Hitbox fixes. Those actually need to be fixes. Needs come before wants.

 

[420quickscoper]

FYI: Mewtwo has a longer grab range in melee, and it didn't whiff against short characters and during dash grabs. I don't think anyone is asking for him to be the best grabber.. Just something matching his grab in melee.

Would be nice if up throw killed 10% earlier IMO tbqh also.

It would be nice to have some more grab range no doubt. That's why I go for a lot of Jab to Grab though.

Also, up kill throw killing earlier? Killing is not one of his problems. In fact he's pretty good at it and I'm comfortable with the kill percents it already has.

 

[godogod]

40 characters having throw combos doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean people who have throw combos=easy kill/zero to death. Like any combo in this game,there's too many variables on effectiveness against fighters (fall speed, current damage %, being able to DI). A good amount of those characters that have throw combos, already have another option to combo also, while Mewtwo's bread and butter combo is pretty much needs down tilt.

I didn't say his power is a problem(unless you want him to be a true glass cannon and not get a weight buff), but it wouldn't hurt his offensive options, considering he lacks alot of offensive options and being a lightweight doesn't help. No, that's not what he needs the most. I said that on the side. He had the best upthrow in the game in melee, and I see nothing wrong with trying to get that back. Meanwhile, you have other characters that retain their strong throws(Ness with his back air), and other characters that have even stronger throws than before from previous games(lol charizard).

My point was exactly what I responded to: your statement of "characters have gotten hitboxes removed, decreased and increased in size" and how it doesn't justify the inclusion of a brand new hitbox because it's completely different. And my ending statement "It's still a possibility, but that's probably one of the last possible buffs that would ever be implemented." was just my concluding thought on the whole thing because I'm done talking this. So don't respond back.

We don't need an entirely new hitbox. It could just be extended from the front to hit behind Mewtwo.

 

[Green L]

Don't you think that's a bit overused?
There are many more ways to buff Mewtwo, not that he needs buffs, but if he really does need them then make them interesting for the love of god.

Dude I agree completely which is why I only play melee these days. Most characters fish for grab followups until it stops working. Why not combos without grabs?

 

[MarioMeteor]

If he had true combos out of Dthrow, he would be a bit too good. It would be over balanced. He has good tech chaases out of Dthrow, and I think thats good enough.

His grabs aren't a core part of his metagame, its as simple as that.

(Note: they can still be used to reposition, damage, tech chase and kill.)

Broken hitboxes, featherweight, two useable special moves, and true combos out of one throw. Yes, that sounds like an AMAZING character.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Broken hitboxes, featherweight, two useable special moves, and true combos out of one throw. Yes, that sounds like an AMAZING character.

Jiggs is a featherweight in Melee, BAD CHARACTER... That point is pretty invalid. Plus, Mewtwo's recovery allows him to live longer then some heavies. He can almost always recover, as long as you don't get footstooled.

Hitboxes aren't broken... If they change the hitboxes on Uair and Utilt I would be soooooo mad. I like true kill combos and infinites.

Teleport is amazing. Shadowball is another kill move and deals insane shield damage. Confusion is a 50/50 and Disable stuns the opponent. Really?

He doesn't have true combos out of throws, but he has kill combos out of Dtilt and Utilt, multiple 30% combos out of dtilt and Utilt-Bair deals 15% Plus, Dtilt always trues into at least 15%.

There is more, but I worte a super long guide so that scrubs could learn more about this "BAD" character. If you want to brag about playing a low tier then go play Samus and Zelda.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Jiggs is a featherweight in Melee, BAD CHARACTER... That point is pretty invalid. Plus, Mewtwo's recovery allows him to live longer then some heavies. He can almost always recover, as long as you don't get footstooled.

Hitboxes aren't broken... If they change the hitboxes on Uair and Utilt I would be soooooo mad. I like true kill combos and infinites.

Teleport is amazing. Shadowball is another kill move and deals insane shield damage. Confusion is a 50/50 and Disable stuns the opponent. Really?

He doesn't have true combos out of throws, but he has kill combos out of Dtilt and Utilt, multiple 30% combos out of dtilt and Utilt-Bair deals 15% Plus, Dtilt always trues into at least 15%.

There is more, but I worte a super long guide so that scrubs could learn more about this "BAD" character. If you want to brag about playing a low tier then go play Samus and Zelda.

I don't play Mewtwo, smartass. I tend to like my characters with working hitboxes. Mewtwo is not just a featherweight, but a featherweight that is also gigantic, with no Luma to fight with him. He gets the **** comboed out of him, his hurtboxes are gigantic, and they cause him to die even earlier than he should. His up smash whiffs on small characters, his up tilt decides when it wants to hit, we all know his grab range is jank, up air, back air, and forward air whiff, and his forward smash whiffs at point blank. You could actually get KO'd for using Confusion, and Disable is just plain bad. You were saying?

 

[meleebrawler]

Jiggs is a featherweight in Melee, BAD CHARACTER... That point is pretty invalid. Plus, Mewtwo's recovery allows him to live longer then some heavies. He can almost always recover, as long as you don't get footstooled.

Hitboxes aren't broken... If they change the hitboxes on Uair and Utilt I would be soooooo mad. I like true kill combos and infinites.

Teleport is amazing. Shadowball is another kill move and deals insane shield damage. Confusion is a 50/50 and Disable stuns the opponent. Really?

He doesn't have true combos out of throws, but he has kill combos out of Dtilt and Utilt, multiple 30% combos out of dtilt and Utilt-Bair deals 15% Plus, Dtilt always trues into at least 15%.

There is more, but I worte a super long guide so that scrubs could learn more about this "BAD" character. If you want to brag about playing a low tier then go play Samus and Zelda.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... I honestly consider Samus to be on par with Mewtwo. She has some similarities in gameplan but with a different approach to things, namely applying more constant pressure to contrast Mewtwo's passive dodge and counter style.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Whoa, whoa, whoa... I honestly consider Samus to be on par with Mewtwo. She has some similarities in gameplan but with a different approach to things, namely applying more constant pressure to contrast Mewtwo's passive dodge and counter style.

Sorry, I don't know a lot about Samus, but I do know people tend to put her really low. I guess she is underrated.
MarioMeteor this should be fun.

A. Grab range isn't jank. It has a earlier start-up then people think. There are other things, but they are scattered around the forum.

B. Usmash has a peculiar hitbox. Mainly at the beginning. Try sliding into people with it. It works better.

C. Mario's Fsmash does too, same with many others...

D. Utilt has very specific hit boxes that take a bit to learn. But when you do, you destroy people with combos and infinites.

E. Uair is sorta weird, it requires correct timing. It is mainly an animation issue. The top is fine. But the front and back go for a bit longer then the hitbox. The front just needs to not be cancelled too fast. Though the back is something I am still looking into. meleebrawler , do you know the hitbox stuff for back hit?

F. Fair, space it correctly, don't be too close to them when you use it. It's not smart to be close anyways.

G. Bair was done like that for good reason. The bottom hit would have been too powerful. However, you can hit all the way until the animation with the top half. I wonder if you can combo with the top hit if cancelled?

H. Grounded confusion is bad. But aerial confusion is good. I am looking into SH confusion right now and it is pretty safe. If you are worried about Mewtwo getting punished with an aerial, you can do a retreating confusion. Also, when reflecting with confusion, the reflect box lasts beyond the animation, enabling the possibility of putting Mewtwo in a favorable position instead of neutral.

I. Disable is a read option. SH disable OoS and feet stun are good ways to bypass the dangers. Also, with the new shieldstun mechanics, this got a slight buff.

Other then that, there are ways around getting combo'd too hard. Any more questions?

 

[meleebrawler]

Sorry, I don't know a lot about Samus, but I do know people tend to put her really low. I guess she is underrated.

I like to think of her as an aggressive Mewtwo. Because her defence isn't as good she has to constantly keep the opponent off-balance instead, and she has the weight, shield pressure and faster charge projectile to support this.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I like to think of her as an aggressive Mewtwo. Because her defence isn't as good she has to constantly keep the opponent off-balance instead, and she has the weight, shield pressure and faster charge projectile to support this.

At least she can destroy people if they get shield broken!

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I don't play Mewtwo, smartass. I tend to like my characters with working hitboxes. Mewtwo is not just a featherweight, but a featherweight that is also gigantic, with no Luma to fight with him. He gets the **** comboed out of him, his hurtboxes are gigantic, and they cause him to die even earlier than he should. His up smash whiffs on small characters, his up tilt decides when it wants to hit, we all know his grab range is jank, up air, back air, and forward air whiff, and his forward smash whiffs at point blank. You could actually get KO'd for using Confusion, and Disable is just plain bad. You were saying?

I think you're downplaying much the character a bit.

1) If you're fighting a short char, d-tilt into U-tilt is a good way to ensure it hits. U-tilt can also hit opponents right behind Mewtwo, so its a useful and fast option for covering his backside.

2) Mewtwo's aerials whiff? I haven't noticed. If anything, I find myself hitting targets I don't think he should. Secondly, Mewtwo'd aerials are very offensive weapons on a defensive glass cannon, especially F-Air, which is very high risk, high reward.

3) Forward Smash at point blank is inferior to D-Smash. Only times you should use Forward Smash over D-Smash is if they're coming from the air or its sweet spots, the edges, can be used to their full advantage. U-Smash is almost read only, but Mewtwo himself becomes a hitbox at the beginning and end of the move.

4) Confusion overall is better off used for recovery and reflecting projectiles. If you want an offensive use, use an aerial confusion. Disable is a read-only tool.

No offense, but I don't see how you can criticize M2 when you don't seem to know very much about him.

 

[420quickscoper]

I don't play Mewtwo, smartass. I tend to like my characters with working hitboxes. Mewtwo is not just a featherweight, but a featherweight that is also gigantic, with no Luma to fight with him. He gets the **** comboed out of him, his hurtboxes are gigantic, and they cause him to die even earlier than he should. His up smash whiffs on small characters, his up tilt decides when it wants to hit, we all know his grab range is jank, up air, back air, and forward air whiff, and his forward smash whiffs at point blank. You could actually get KO'd for using Confusion, and Disable is just plain bad. You were saying?

hmm
light? don't get hit by everything
comboed for days? too exaggerated
grab isn't that jank
other aerials aren't that nank
forward smash whiffs? why do you need it to hit point blank when the spaced version hits the hardest?
If you're getting KO'd by using Confusion, then you obviously are bad at using Confusion. You can shield before any attack comes out anyways. Why would you use Confusion on the ground anyways?

Disable isn't bad. It's a pretty good punish option. Even at 0% because you can get cool combos out of it.



If you don't even play Mewtwo, why are you judging him? You really don't seem to be knowledgeable about the things he has.

 

[420quickscoper]

40 characters having throw combos doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean people who have throw combos=easy kill/zero to death. Like any combo in this game,there's too many variables on effectiveness against fighters (fall speed, current damage %, being able to DI). A good amount of those characters that have throw combos, already have another option to combo also, while Mewtwo's bread and butter combo is pretty much needs down tilt.

I didn't say his power is a problem(unless you want him to be a true glass cannon and not get a weight buff), but it wouldn't hurt his offensive options, considering he lacks alot of offensive options and being a lightweight doesn't help. No, that's not what he needs the most. I said that on the side. He had the best upthrow in the game in melee, and I see nothing wrong with trying to get that back. Meanwhile, you have other characters that retain their strong throws(Ness with his back air), and other characters that have even stronger throws than before from previous games(lol charizard).


We don't need an entirely new hitbox. It could just be extended from the front to hit behind Mewtwo.

Can't you come up with something more interesting than a down throw combo? Please?

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Can't you come up with something more interesting than a down throw combo? Please?

Only ideas for custom moves he'll never get, rip. Other than more weight and a combo throw, it's hard to imagine what to improve Mewtwo on a ton. Of course, then there's me, who wants juuuust a little more range on that grab...

 

[MarioMeteor]

hmm
light? don't get hit by everything
comboed for days? too exaggerated
grab isn't that jank
other aerials aren't that nank
forward smash whiffs? why do you need it to hit point blank when the spaced version hits the hardest?
If you're getting KO'd by using Confusion, then you obviously are bad at using Confusion. You can shield before any attack comes out anyways. Why would you use Confusion on the ground anyways?

Disable isn't bad. It's a pretty good punish option. Even at 0% because you can get cool combos out of it.



If you don't even play Mewtwo, why are you judging him? You really don't seem to be knowledgeable about the things he has.

Was I judging him? "Mewtwo is a bad character." That would be judging him. I was pointing out how stupid it was to say that throw combos would make him too good when he has a ****load of other flaws to make up for it.

I think you're downplaying much the character a bit.

I don't think he's as bad as people make him out to be, but I'd be lying if I said Mewtwo's hitboxes weren't on drugs.

1) If you're fighting a short char, d-tilt into U-tilt is a good way to ensure it hits. U-tilt can also hit opponents right behind Mewtwo, so its a useful and fast option for covering his backside.

2) Mewtwo's aerials whiff? I haven't noticed. If anything, I find myself hitting targets I don't think he should. Secondly, Mewtwo'd aerials are very offensive weapons on a defensive glass cannon, especially F-Air, which is very high risk, high reward.

3) Forward Smash at point blank is inferior to D-Smash. Only times you should use Forward Smash over D-Smash is if they're coming from the air or its sweet spots, the edges, can be used to their full advantage. U-Smash is almost read only, but Mewtwo himself becomes a hitbox at the beginning and end of the move.

4) Confusion overall is better off used for recovery and reflecting projectiles. If you want an offensive use, use an aerial confusion. Disable is a read-only tool.

1.) Sometimes. Sometimes up tilt will hit behind him, and other times it'll decide that it doesn't feel like it.

2.) It's not really noticeable full hopped. Try short hopping them and watch as they pass harmlessly through.

3.) It still shouldn't happen. Bad hitboxes are bad hitboxes.

4.) Exactly my point. Neither of them work as viable options.

No offense, but I don't see how you can criticize M2 when you don't seem to know very much about him.

I don't know very much about being slapped, but I can guaranteed you I don't want to find out.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

1.) Sometimes. Sometimes up tilt will hit behind him, and other times it'll decide that it doesn't feel like it.

2.) It's not really noticeable full hopped. Try short hopping them and watch as they pass harmlessly through.

3.) It still shouldn't happen. Bad hitboxes are bad hitboxes.

4.) Exactly my point. Neither of them work as viable options.

1) The game doesn't decide when up-tilt does and doesn't 'feel' like hitting. That's a timing issue that comes from the player, not the game.

2) I short hop into F-Air a lot and still have rarely noticed whiffing. U-Air and B-Air may be more of an issue but considering B-Air especially has a good bit of end lag, I try not to use it unless I can full hop it.

3) Then we should also fix Mario's F-Smash. Bad hitboxes are bad hitboxes.

4) How did anything I say prove that they are non-viable options? In Sm4sh, Confusion is very useful in negating a lot of projectile spam, and it's a huge reason why Mewtwo has so much horizontal survivability. He's not heavy, but if he's not knocked off the screen, confusion can pretty much ensure he's getting back to the stage. Disable being read only and/or a punish tool makes it non-viable? Why even bother with anything other than true combos then?

I don't know very much about being slapped, but I can guaranteed you I don't want to find out.

I don't know very much about being slapped, but I can tell you from what I have learned that it isn't as bad as one would like to think

 

[MarioMeteor]

1) The game doesn't decide when up-tilt does and doesn't 'feel' like hitting. That's a timing issue that comes from the player, not the game.

A timing issue? On a move with such a simple animation? Explain.

2) I short hop into F-Air a lot and still have rarely noticed whiffing. U-Air and B-Air may be more of an issue but considering B-Air especially has a good bit of end lag, I try not to use it unless I can full hop it.

The fact that you said "rarely" tells me that it does happen, which is all I needed to hear.

,3) Then we should also fix Mario's F-Smash. Bad hitboxes are bad hitboxes.

What? What do you mean?

4) How did anything I say prove that they are non-viable options? In Sm4sh, Confusion is very useful in negating a lot of projectile spam, and it's a huge reason why Mewtwo has so much horizontal survivability. He's not heavy, but if he's not knocked off the screen, confusion can pretty much ensure he's getting back to the stage. Disable being read only and/or a punish tool makes it non-viable? Why even bother with anything other than true combos then?

I meant as an attacking option. Confusion isn't particularly fast so the surprise factor is lost, and Disable is unreliable as hell. It's not the fact that it's read-only, it's the reason why it's read-only. Or rather, reasons. Short duration, can be shielded, only works while grounded, and it can even be reflected back at him. That doesn't even make sense!

I don't know very much about being slapped, but I can tell you from what I have learned that it isn't as bad as one would like to think

Well played. I'll take your word for it, though.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

A timing issue? On a move with such a simple animation? Explain.

The fact that you said "rarely" tells me that it does happen, which is all I needed to hear.


What? What do you mean?


I meant as an attacking option. Confusion isn't particularly fast so the surprise factor is lost, and Disable is unreliable as hell. It's not the fact that it's read-only, it's the reason why it's read-only. Or rather, reasons. Short duration, can be shielded, only works while grounded, and it can even be reflected back at him. That doesn't even make sense!




Well played. I'll take your word for it, though.

If it is as simple as you make it out to be, then it shouldn't be deciding when it does and doesn't hit. You should be able to know when it does and doesn't hit because its fixed.

Rarely as in once every three-dozen fights or so.

Mario and others' F-Smashes can whiff at point blank, as Sonicninja115 stated in his response.

I said Confusion is a defensive option. Mewtwo shouldn't be acting aggressively - it is better to have more defensive options on a defensive glass cannon than offensive options. You have me at Disable's short duration and range. Of course it can be shielded - its not a command grab. You should never use Disable in the air when you have options like N-Air, which is infinitely better as an approach tool and in aerial combat. I don't see why disable being a ground-based move is a reason its terrible.

And I wouldn't bash it for being reflectable when fire breathing, missiles and charge shots can be countered by mid-air sword parries and super lasers and singularity devices can be stuffed in my pants pocket.

 

[Sonicninja115]

I think you're downplaying much the character a bit.

1) If you're fighting a short char, d-tilt into U-tilt is a good way to ensure it hits. U-tilt can also hit opponents right behind Mewtwo, so its a useful and fast option for covering his backside.

2) Mewtwo's aerials whiff? I haven't noticed. If anything, I find myself hitting targets I don't think he should. Secondly, Mewtwo'd aerials are very offensive weapons on a defensive glass cannon, especially F-Air, which is very high risk, high reward.

3) Forward Smash at point blank is inferior to D-Smash. Only times you should use Forward Smash over D-Smash is if they're coming from the air or its sweet spots, the edges, can be used to their full advantage. U-Smash is almost read only, but Mewtwo himself becomes a hitbox at the beginning and end of the move.

4) Confusion overall is better off used for recovery and reflecting projectiles. If you want an offensive use, use an aerial confusion. Disable is a read-only tool.

No offense, but I don't see how you can criticize M2 when you don't seem to know very much about him.

Jab-Utilt is the best way to get combos, as it hits with the sourspot.

Fair at close range, Uair has slight whiff issues and Bair doesn't have a lower hitbox.

Was I judging him? "Mewtwo is a bad character." That would be judging him. I was pointing out how stupid it was to say that throw combos would make him too good when he has a ****load of other flaws to make up for it.

I don't think he's as bad as people make him out to be, but I'd be lying if I said Mewtwo's hitboxes weren't on drugs.


1.) Sometimes. Sometimes up tilt will hit behind him, and other times it'll decide that it doesn't feel like it.

2.) It's not really noticeable full hopped. Try short hopping them and watch as they pass harmlessly through.

3.) It still shouldn't happen. Bad hitboxes are bad hitboxes.

4.) Exactly my point. Neither of them work as viable options.


I don't know very much about being slapped, but I can guaranteed you I don't want to find out.

Hitboxes bruh. I spent 20 minutes learning them. It has to do with height and positioning.

Timing and spacing. Not that hard. The aerial comes out slightly before the hitbox, especially with Uair, but it is still easy to hit. The problem with Uair is where it's hitboxes are. They are pretty high up making it hard to do a landing Uair. Bair works out of SH, easy spacing. Fair's hitbox comes out a bit later then the animation, learn the timing on landing Fair and Uair.

Then go complain about Mario's Fsmash on the Mario boards.

Both options are very viable. When spaced properly, confusion is unpunishable. Aerial confusion is really hard to punish and confusion is a great reflector. Confusion is a GOOD 50/50, it has set KB which makes it combo at any percent.

SH disable and Feet stun are viable options. They are safe.

A timing issue? On a move with such a simple animation? Explain.

The fact that you said "rarely" tells me that it does happen, which is all I needed to hear.


What? What do you mean?


I meant as an attacking option. Confusion isn't particularly fast so the surprise factor is lost, and Disable is unreliable as hell. It's not the fact that it's read-only, it's the reason why it's read-only. Or rather, reasons. Short duration, can be shielded, only works while grounded, and it can even be reflected back at him. That doesn't even make sense!




Well played. I'll take your word for it, though.

Explained

You have to be so close to the other character that you are going to get annihilated anyways.

All Fsmashes that take a step forward whiff at pointblank. except CF's I think.

It is best used in the air as an attack option, the momentum makes it easier to combo, plus it comes out frame 15 or something.

Someone can repost this in case he blocked me.

 

[Furret24]

Someone can repost this in case he blocked me.

Was that really necessary?

How rude.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Was that really necessary?

How rude.

It's annoying to have people spread false information. This thread is too often used for griping about Mewtwo instead of actually discussing what custom moves he should get or what D-throw combos he has. I just don't want anymore false hate being thrown at Mewtwo, especially because it tends to spread around faster then the true information.

I am not trying to be overly rude, but the misinformation needs to be stopped.

 

[godogod]

Can't you come up with something more interesting than a down throw combo? Please?

Because down throw is useless to use as it is. It doesn't reliably lead to any string of combos, unlike those 40 characters you mentioned and Melee Mewtwo, mainly because its ending lag is to long. If its not down throw, I can see a buffed up tilt being reliably used to combo(if it get its hitbox fixed) without having to use neutral.

Who cares if it isn't interesting? Every character has plenty of borrowed moves from another. Doesn't mean they will play exactly the same, especially when you consider that each character have their own unique attributes and variations of a move.


Can you come up with something more interesting than a down throw combo? You brought it up..

 

[BarSoapSoup]

actually discussing what custom moves he should get

Ohoho, I got this.

Neutral customs
Shadow Volley - Mewtwo charges two smaller Shadow Balls in both of his hands. He can launch either independently, and they are fired faster than default SB. Shadow Balls have reduced damage and knockback but would be primarily used for shield pressure. Will not kill unless the opponent is at a percentage where other moves are much better options.

Hyper Beam - This move cannot be used until it is fully charged. It has a long charge up time, very obvious when about to execute, but very high damage and very high knockback. If used in the air, it would be angled directly down. Mewtwo is immobile while using this move. Can kill early. Getting hit by an aerial Hyper Beam will spike the opponent.

Side customs
Protect - Mewtwo creates an impenetrable, blue orb around him for a brief time - he is immobilized by this. Projectiles are not reflected back, but if Mewtwo uses Protect while an opponent is very close to him, they will take slight damage and be pushed out by a windbox. Drawbacks I'm not too sure about other than higher endlag. Helps to negate some shield pressure and possibly useful for edgeguarding.

Swift - Good old Swift. Mewtwo creates three stars and fires them out. Their is slight tracking but nothing that can't be dodged. The stars dissipate after a few seconds. A damage rack-up move. No kill power.

Up customs
Recover - Gives up major recovery move for a self-heal move, which takes about 3-4 seconds to execute. Once executed, Mewtwo's percentage is halved.

Warp Shock - Teleport's execution time is lengthened and its distance is reduced, but there will be a few frames where electricity will form where Mewtwo exits. Think N-Air, but a stationary AOE effect. Like Shadow Volley, it will not kill unless the opponent is at a point where you'd wonder why you didn't use something better.

Down customs
Future Sight - a counter for Mewtwo. If hit during the move, Mewtwo will have the Disable animation and send them a ways back. Medium kill power.

Mind Blast (PEW PEW EYES, YEAH) - High start-up lag: Mewtwo rears its head back and darts it forward with glowing eyes. A psychic blast, which will travel at medium speed, will fly out and be denoted by wave lines along the ground a la Mewtwo Strikes Back. Projectile travels in a straight line, and has high damage and knockback, making it an extremely high-risk, high reward. Obviously, it's a kill move.

Reasoning: Since Mewtwo is a glass cannon, I tried to make many of his customs compliment that while at the same time allowing Customs that could appeal to other playstyles or new experimentation with custom combos.

Hope you guys like them

Edited for easier reading