Magus, thanks for the post, I had posted a while ago asking for you to explain all this stuff. We will fix in the future. If you could PM me exact details on how you would think luigi jab upB should work and about the luigi aerial upB nerf I'd greatly appreciate it.
I would have replied back then, but I wanted to hold off until I got a good chance to really take a close look at it with the frame advance to see at what ranges it works with DI, on which characters, and the difference between just full away DI and 'perfect' DI on the d-throw.
For his Jab 1 to (g)Up-B, there's a few good ways I can think of to fix it, but first I'll explain a bit about his jab combos and jab "strings". Currently, the Jab 1 stuns for 14-16 frames depending on weight, while the stun was 11-13 in vBrawl.
In vB the followups were mostly determined by their fall speed/fall speed acceleration (see
this thread for more info), with most characters getting out of stun before landing, and the floatier ones having more follow ups due to human reaction time and their additional air time essentially acting as extra "stun" when they are unable to react quickly enough to avoid the land lag. Whenever a character lands after getting jabbed they go into 'hard' landing lag ([
6: Bowser, DDD]; [
5: Charizard, DK, Ganon, Link, Lucas, Pit, Snake]; [
4: *Everyone Else*]). If they airdodge before landing they instead get a soft landing of about 2 frames. If their stun from the jab didn't complete before landing they finish that and then go into their hard landing.
In B+, most characters land while still in stun from the jab due to the physics changes and higher stun. This makes the followups more combo based and less based on difficult to avoid strings. The faster fallers have more followups with the extra stun on the ground, while the very floaty ones have slightly fewer followups because even with the extra stun they can still jump out to avoid the landlag and if they don't jump they land a little sooner than they did in vB. It puts them closer together, though on average it's a good amount higher than before.
2 of Luigi's most important jab combos/strings to look at are...
Jab 1 -> (g)Up-B (hits on frame 6) is unblockable when:
Stun or Air Time >= 19 - Landlag
Jab 1 -> D-Smash (hits on frame 5) is unblockable when:
Stun or Air Time >= 18 - Landlag
With the current Jab 1 and (g)Up-B, it can only be blocked by Wario, Yoshi, and Kirby (he ducks underneath the sweetspot). Most of the others are comboed into it and a few of the floatiest characters can't block it but are able to jump/airdodge/invincible startup move to avoid it if they react fast enough.
Possible Fixes:
1) Slow down (g)Up-B to (or an equivalent of) 0.5x speed starting on frame 4 until frame 6 (adding 2 frames so that it instead hits on 8 instead of 6).
2) Reduce the BKB of Jab 1 by the very
minimum amount necessary for Dedede to be stunned for 12 frames instead of 14 (Charizard would go from 14-13).
3) Slow down (g)Up-B to (or an equivalent of) 0.5x speed starting on frame 5 until frame 6 (adding 1 frame so that it instead hits on 7 instead of 6), and reduce the BKB of Jab 1 by the very
minimum amount necessary for Dedede to be stunned for 13 frames instead of 14 (Charizard would remain at 14 stun).
If you're wondering why I would suggest cutting off specifically at Dedede for the BKB changes for stun reduction it's because he's the lightest character that has 6 frames of hard landing lag.
I think the 3rd one would be the best of the 3.
The 1st slows down the (g)Up-B by a somewhat noticeable amount, and the Jab 1 still has a bit more stun than I feel is necessary.
The 2nd makes Jab->D-Smash/D-Tilt/U-Tilt more difficult than they'd usually be worth against most characters they'd work on (you can't buffer these so you'd have a 0-1 frame window of error unless they're also very floaty), since Jab->Grab is easier/more reliable and has comparable damage output.
The 3rd has a mostly unnoticeable change on the (g)Up-B speed, and keeps the 5 frame followup attacks as solid alternatives to Jab->Grab on a good amount of characters, while still keeping the timing pretty tight (0-2 frame window of error).
This is what the stuns would look like (list 1 is exact, while lists 2 & 3 are close estimates):
Luigi's Jab 1 Stun, and Character Weights in vBrawl
11 Stun: Bowser (1.111, 0.91); Donkey Kong (1.091, 0.20); Snake (1.076, 0.16)
12 Stun: Dedede (1.071, 0.29); Charizard (1.061, 0.33); Ganon (1.056, 0.91); Samus (1.051, -0.54); Yoshi (1.045, -0.05); Wario (1.045, 0.30); ROB (1.040, -0.32); Ike (1.035, 0.28); Captain Falcon (1.030, 0.92); Link (1.030, 0.46); Wolf (1.020, 1.84); Lucario (1.010, -0.40); Ivysaur (1.010, -0.16); Mario (1.000, 0.00); Luigi (0.995, -0.32); Sonic (0.985, 0.33); Ness (0.980, -0.12); Pit (0.980, 0.00); Lucas (0.980, 0.49); Diddy Kong (0.975, 0.55); Toon Link (0.970, -0.16); Ice Climbers (0.970, 0.07); Peach (0.960, -0.37); Marth (0.944, -0.25); Sheik (0.935, 2.21); Zelda (0.935, -0.26); Falco (0.919, 1.23); Olimar (0.919, -0.47)
13 Stun: ZSS (0.914, 0.44); Fox (0.910, 3.41); Pikachu (0.904, 0.40); Meta Knight (0.904, 0.68); Kirby (0.899, -0.44); Squirtle (0.884, 1.05); G&W (0.884, 0.01); Jigglypuff (0.849, -0.78)
(Approximate) Luigi's Jab 1 Stun, and Character Weights in Brawl+ [CURRENT]
14 Stun: Bowser (1.111, 0.91); Donkey Kong (1.091, 0.20); Snake (1.076, 0.16); Dedede (1.071, 0.29); Charizard (1.061, 0.33); Ganon (1.056, 0.91); Samus (1.051, -0.54); Yoshi (1.045, -0.05); Wario (1.045, 0.30)
15 Stun: ROB (1.040, -0.32); Ike (1.035, 0.28); Captain Falcon (1.030, 0.92); Link (1.030, 0.46); Wolf (1.020, 1.84); Lucario (1.010, -0.40); Ivysaur (1.010, -0.16); Mario (1.000, 0.00); Luigi (0.995, -0.32); Sonic (0.985, 0.33); Ness (0.980, -0.12); Pit (0.980, 0.00); Lucas (0.980, 0.49); Diddy Kong (0.975, 0.55); Toon Link (0.970, -0.16); Ice Climbers (0.970, 0.07); Peach (0.960, -0.37); Marth (0.944, -0.25); Sheik (0.935, 2.21); Zelda (0.935, -0.26); Falco (0.919, 1.23); Olimar (0.919, -0.47); ZSS (0.914, 0.44); Fox (0.910, 3.41); Pikachu (0.904, 0.40); Meta Knight (0.904, 0.68); Kirby (0.899, -0.44)
16 Stun: Squirtle (0.884, 1.05); G&W (0.884, 0.01); Jigglypuff (0.849, -0.78)
(Approximate) Luigi's Jab 1 Stun, and Character Weights in Brawl+ [NEW; fix #3]
13 Stun: Bowser (1.111, 0.91); Donkey Kong (1.091, 0.20); Snake (1.076, 0.16); Dedede (1.071, 0.29)
14 Stun: Charizard (1.061, 0.33); Ganon (1.056, 0.91); Samus (1.051, -0.54); Yoshi (1.045, -0.05); Wario (1.045, 0.30); ROB (1.040, -0.32); Ike (1.035, 0.28); Captain Falcon (1.030, 0.92); Link (1.030, 0.46); Wolf (1.020, 1.84); Lucario (1.010, -0.40); Ivysaur (1.010, -0.16); Mario (1.000, 0.00); Luigi (0.995, -0.32); Sonic (0.985, 0.33); Ness (0.980, -0.12); Pit (0.980, 0.00); Lucas (0.980, 0.49); Diddy Kong (0.975, 0.55); Toon Link (0.970, -0.16); Ice Climbers (0.970, 0.07); Peach (0.960, -0.37); Marth (0.944, -0.25); Sheik (0.935, 2.21); Zelda (0.935, -0.26); Falco (0.919, 1.23); Olimar (0.919, -0.47); ZSS (0.914, 0.44)
15 Stun: Fox (0.910, 3.41); Pikachu (0.904, 0.40); Meta Knight (0.904, 0.68); Kirby (0.899, -0.44); Squirtle (0.884, 1.05); G&W (0.884, 0.01); Jigglypuff (0.849, -0.78)
The combo/strings lists would look like this:
vBrawl
Jab 1 -> (g)Up-B:
Combo: [NONE]
Unblockable String:
[/COLOR]
Blockable:
Jab 1 -> D-Smash:
Combo: [NONE]
Unblockable String:
Blockable:
Brawl+ [CURRENT]
Jab 1 -> (g)Up-B:
Combo:
Unblockable String/Possible Combo:
Blockable:
(Kirby ducks underneath the sweetspot)
Jab 1 -> D-Smash:
Combo:
Unblockable String/Possible Combo:
Blockable: [NONE]
Brawl+ [NEW; fix #3]
Jab 1 -> (g)Up-B:
Combo: [NONE]
Possible Unblockable String:
Blockable:
(Jiggs & Kirby duck underneath the sweetspot)
Jab 1 -> D-Smash:
Combo:
Unblockable String/Possible Combo:
Blockable: [NONE]
As for the (a)Up-B nerf, I would say either just remove it entirely, or if it would still need a change it would be rather small like maybe instead of KBG being changed from 72->60 like it is now, be more around 72->70.
[/QUOTE]
God we need Magus back here.
