Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

[kirbywizard]

On Norfair, 55:45 MK.

On anywhere else, 75:25 MK. Once MK gets going there is no stopping him from gimping you.

This man speaks the truth now lets just hope they do not decide to ban nofair for some odd reason. Would anyone like to care to put anything else in here or should we move on to someone else.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'll average to 30:70 MK.

Now we move on.

We're doing, RoB

 

[Wafflez]

*Spits a stick of Pocky out of my mouth*

Ray Kalm told me you people thought the match-up on D3 was 60:40. What's the matter with you guys? -_-;;


Before you people throw out another ridiculous ratio, ROB is 60:40 ROB's favor. ROB has better projectile game from afar and his close ranged attacks can **** Link, not to mention his beast aerial recovery allows him to gimp Link with ease. Link controls the match depending on his ranging, staying close enough to prevent ROB from spamming everything he's got, but far enough to avoid his attacks. Zairing will keep ROB at Clawshot's length and occaisional aerials thrown in can quickly turn the tide of the battle if the Link knows what he's doing. Staying away from the edge, proper DI and sensible spacing can give Link control of the fight, although he'll lose any hopes of surviving if ROB follows him off stage.

You people...
The mere notion that the overall matchup of MK vs Link would be 60:40 is grounds to declare lunacy alone. Get your act together, rumor has it the SBR is watching Match-up ratios, don't give them faulty information.

*Puts a fresh piece of Pocky in my mouth and walks back to AiB*

 

[00000]

I'll average to 30:70 MK.

Now we move on.

We're doing, RoB

25-75 at best IMHO.

Examining frame data, all of Link's attacks are way too punishable for MK, while too many of MK's attacks aren't (the most important problem).

Combine that with Link's horrible edge game and ineffective projectile game against MK, and we have a nigh impossible matchup.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

*Spits a stick of Pocky out of my mouth*

Ray Kalm told me you people thought the match-up on D3 was 60:40. What's the matter with you guys? -_-;;


Before you people throw out another ridiculous ratio, ROB is 60:40 ROB's favor. ROB has better projectile game from afar and his close ranged attacks can **** Link, not to mention his beast aerial recovery allows him to gimp Link with ease. Link controls the match depending on his ranging, staying close enough to prevent ROB from spamming everything he's got, but far enough to avoid his attacks. Zairing will keep ROB at Clawshot's length and occaisional aerials thrown in can quickly turn the tide of the battle if the Link knows what he's doing. Staying away from the edge, proper DI and sensible spacing can give Link control of the fight, although he'll lose any hopes of surviving if ROB follows him off stage.

You people...
The mere notion that the overall matchup of MK vs Link would be 60:40 is grounds to declare lunacy alone. Get your act together, rumor has it the SBR is watching Match-up ratios, don't give them faulty information.

*Puts a fresh piece of Pocky in my mouth and walks back to AiB*

I said at best, AKA on Norfair or anywhere else Link can gain something from the stage.

Everywhere else it's 30:70ish, other people said 25:75, while I was around the 35:65-30:70 area so I averaged for 30:70. My post was very loose in interpretation so I'll apolegize on that one.

And your R.O.B. info is correct.

 

[Jamnt0ast]

MK is 60/40 on the DEVA scale.... In Link's favor....

On a side not. xD

ROB VS LINK

Link... CAMP CAMP CAMP CAMP CAMP... you CAN outcamp ROB with link if your try hard enough.
ROB.... Gimp -> Profit

Link gets ***** in this matchup... sorry to say.

With Link you should be pulling bombs and running. You can bomb rob upon UP B and use gale boomerangs to screw up his flight pattern. Just Don't try to edgeguard with Dair. It wont work and you will die.

Rob simply needs to abuse links happyness in his shield. Link can be grabbed to gimped pretty simply.

30/70 ROB's advantage
...I consistantly beat Deva.

 

[Anonano]

Link can outspam ROB, but ROB still has a nasty spam game and neither should his close-up game be underestimated. Dsmash eats Link for breakfast, and fsmash tends to hit Link faster than he can retaliate.
However ROB is a heavy that can be juggled pretty hard with Link's uair. Zair also kicks ROB's butt, which is helped along by ROB's slow rolling game. And, if spaced correctly, it makes it difficult for ROB to retaliate if he tries to shield the zair.
ROB can gimp Link so easily its ridiculous. The real key to having a chance at ROB is to never get offstage. Always go for the whiplash recovery. This means that you need to DI downwards; chances are that if you die because you couldn't grab the ledge quickly enough, you wouldn't have made it back anyway.
At the very least 65:35 ROB's favor, at most 20:80.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

okay so where is #3?

 

[Lawz.]

Link can outspam ROB, but ROB still has a nasty spam game and neither should his close-up game be underestimated. Dsmash eats Link for breakfast, and fsmash tends to hit Link faster than he can retaliate.
However ROB is a heavy that can be juggled pretty hard with Link's uair. Zair also kicks ROB's butt, which is helped along by ROB's slow rolling game. And, if spaced correctly, it makes it difficult for ROB to retaliate if he tries to shield the zair.
ROB can gimp Link so easily its ridiculous. The real key to having a chance at ROB is to never get offstage. Always go for the whiplash recovery. This means that you need to DI downwards; chances are that if you die because you couldn't grab the ledge quickly enough, you wouldn't have made it back anyway.
At the very least 65:35 ROB's favor, at most 20:80.

zair works until the ROB gets smart and starts shielding and punishing with grabs.

when facing ROB you should be at mid range, not far because ROB does spam you and up close ROB wins with tilts, jabs, and grabs.

ROB should ONLY be 65:35 its not bad enough to be 70:30 and definitely NOT 80:20.

 

[Anonano]

zair works until the ROB gets smart and starts shielding and punishing with grabs.

when facing ROB you should be at mid range, not far because ROB does spam you and up close ROB wins with tilts, jabs, and grabs.

ROB should ONLY be 65:35 its not bad enough to be 70:30 and definitely NOT 80:20.

ROB doesn't have an uber long grab, and nor does he have the ability to rush up after a shield and punish you, via grabs or whatever, if you space zair correctly.

Try playing a ROB offline; they gimp like friggin' crazy. :/

 

[kirbywizard]

Well lets see I find a fantastic stage to vs against ROB I must say is Brinstar, that spinner actaully gets stuck in the lava and ROB Cant pull out a new one. iT gets his spaming game down but overall its still in his advantage

 

[Lawz.]

ROB doesn't have an uber long grab, and nor does he have the ability to rush up after a shield and punish you, via grabs or whatever, if you space zair correctly.

Try playing a ROB offline; they gimp like friggin' crazy. :/

i play 2 ROBs offline. i don't play wifi because i don't own it so what i'm saying is purely offline.

if he PS the zair im pretty sure he can grab Link as he lands.

basically, space correctly if you don't want to get punished. and DO NOT challenge ROB up close too much because he's good at it.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm pretty sure every attack in the game is punishable if you PS it.

 

[00000]

I'm pretty sure every attack in the game is punishable if you PS it.

No.

if he PS the zair im pretty sure he can grab Link as he lands.

Even if he doesn't PS the zair he can grab you as you land, but only if you are too close. Neutral or retreating zair works well when approaching zair is unsafe.

basically, space correctly if you don't want to get punished. and DO NOT challenge ROB up close too much because he's good at it.

This information really applies to every matchup. You should always space correctly unless you want to get hurt, and spacing correctly means you don't get up close and personal (unless you're in a bad position and/or you're desperate).

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

No.

Well most, PSing just makes a lot of attacks a lot more punishable if you know they are coming, like Lucario's Fsmash.

 

[Zane the pure]

As long as you can anticipate R.O.B's Smashes with a PS, the close range is pretty even In My Humble Opinion. I usually grab after a PS and jab until he breaks grab, then I Spin attack him after that to get some space while dealing decent damage. I think Link's projectiles are more versitile here as well.(short hop with a galerang)The R.O.B-Link match-up is in R.O.B's favor, but isn't unwinnable by any means. Link's biggest down on this is his recovery. (as always) uhh... 55% -45% mabye? (edit: okay my bad. so much worse than that. Fought my friend's R.O.B... ugh 70% - 30% without norfair)

 

[Kennahh]

I wouldn't go as far as to say 80:20 in ROB's favor. ROB does **** the **** out of you because if you're fighting a decent ROB, if you go off the stage, you'll most likely die. Luckily you're not always off the stage. I think Long range spam, ROB wins because you don't really have any answer to the laser, medium range though, it's a bit more comfortable. About even. Close range, his D-smash is uber ****, but it can be DI'ed out of. Z-air is effective against ROB.
I'd give this one a 75:25 or a 70:30. Sometimes you have an answer to him, but there are situations where there's really nothing you can do, and if the ROB player exploits those, then you are in for a rough match. Especially because most of the time you are going to have to approach, and with Link, your options are quite limited.
If you don't counterpick with norfair, then you're an idiot.
This picture is a good summary of ROB's threat level.

BY THE WAY
This isn't a match-up thread for Link under the best possible conditions. You don't average the match-up on Link's best counterpick stage and for every other stage. The optimism is great and all, but you guys need to realize that Link sucks. Anyone who knows the first thing about Link will know to strike Norfair in a competitive environment as well. On a neutral stage, D3 rips Link to pieces. CG then gimp and boom, you're down a stock. Anyone who says this matchup is 60:40 needs to L2P.

 

[ndayday]

big red letters

Listen to this man, we're lucky to have his advice.

Reading everything, I'd have to say the matchup is ehh, 75:25.
ROB: 75:25~70:30
Threat level: OSTRICH

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

okay so where is #3?

I need to do an export in the future for that, I'll do that when R.O.B. is done and I'll put up the Ike match-up.

This isn't a match-up thread for Link under the best possible conditions. You don't average the match-up on Link's best counterpick stage and for every other stage. The optimism is great and all, but you guys need to realize that Link sucks. Anyone who knows the first thing about Link will know to strike Norfair in a competitive environment as well. On a neutral stage, D3 rips Link to pieces. CG then gimp and boom, you're down a stock. Anyone who says this matchup is 60:40 needs to L2P.

Funny how the only person who has said it was 60:40 R.O.B. is Waffle, one of the better Link's around.

But after playing against more R.O.B.s I think it's 35:65-30:70. I think Falco, MK, and DDD are worse, which is why I'm leaning towards 35:65.

I've averaged the ratios from everyone and got between 66.2-70.7

I'll list it as a 30:70 R.O.B.

We got the basic info down so we can move on,

We're doing DDD now, because I'm trying to fathom how the hell the old thread even thought it was anywhere close to a 50:50. :/

 

[Zane the pure]

Pray... thats about all. Z-air, space N-air, can't use the air to avoid CG cuz D3 owns the air too, destined for failure. Just pray. I've only beaten one decent D3, I got lucky. Probably 3rd worst. Norfair... help me

 

[-Mars-]

Always keep a bomb with you at all times to break up chaingrabs. Zair with a bomb every chance you get......there are some really good vids of Deva and Legan showing how to expertly play against DDD. Play as gay as possible and space very well.

DDD ***** Link in pretty much every way possible. The only thing that Link really has going for him in this matchup is zair being safe on block.

If you are on BF or any stage with platforms I recommend platform camping DDD.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Platform camp when you can.

Projectile spamming isn't that great when he can just throw waddle dee's in the way. I can't think of a safe move on block other than Zair, maybe a well spaced fair could do something but I doubt that would even work.

 

[-Mars-]

Platform camp when you can.

Projectile spamming isn't that great when he can just throw waddle dee's in the way. I can't think of a safe move on block other than Zair, maybe a well spaced fair could do something but I doubt that would even work.

Since when do waddle dee's block SH and FH bombs and boomerangs? Go to the vid thread and watch Deva and Legan camp the s*** out of DDD players........then get back to me.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Since when do waddle dee's block SH and FH bombs and boomerangs? Go to the vid thread and watch Deva and Legan camp the s*** out of DDD players........then get back to me.

Legan wasn't really camping DDD. He was still getting grabbed and Waddle dees were getting in the way.

Don't get me wrong, we will outcamp DDD if we get into a camp war, but he can minimalize where he can safely approach easily.

 

[Anonano]

We got the basic info down so we can move on,

We're doing DDD now, because I'm trying to fathom how the hell the old thread even thought it was anywhere close to a 50:50. :/

Because D3 didn't have a CG against Link, and we didn't realize just how bad Link's recovery is, and we also didn't realize just how badly D3 can gimp us.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Because D3 didn't have a CG against Link, and we didn't realize just how bad Link's recovery is, and we also didn't realize just how badly D3 can gimp us.

Wasn't the chain grab discovered within the first few days of the game being released? The other stuff I can understand.

 

[Icyo]

So what do we say we kick this back up? winkwink, kirinblaze

 

[00000]

Bombs and zair are the key to this matchup. Once you get D3 into the air, the matchup becomes a lot easier. When D3 gets you in the air, you're screwed. lrn2wavebounce.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I think posting the AiB match-up thread was a kicker in a way.

 

[Jupz]

75:25 Dedede IMO. CG's do so much damage and its so easy to grab with Dedede. We can air grab release link from the edge and simply do one bair->edgehog, or just edgehog at the right time. One grab, and theres a good chance of death. Gimping him is so easy. Links gotta space Zair and use projectiles well if hes gonna stand a chance.

 

[Swanky]

75:25 Dedede IMO. CG's do so much damage and its so easy to grab with Dedede. We can air grab release link from the edge and simply do one bair->edgehog, or just edgehog at the right time. One grab, and theres a good chance of death. Gimping him is so easy. Links gotta space Zair and use projectiles well if hes gonna stand a chance.

Yep I would go with zair+projectiles. Tilts will come in handy for spacing, but the problem is getting close to D3 to finish him off. 1 miss timed smash can equal death, but i use a fair when i face D3 which i think is the best option, next to a down smash.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Any last minute info?

I know this one was short, but I feel like we should move on to another character.

 

[00000]

If you hit D3's shield with your sword, you're ****ed.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

If you hit D3's shield with your sword, you're ****ed.

...well, ****.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I know I'm double posting, but I need to get this thread moving again.

We're going to move on to Kirby.

 

[Suspect]

why dont you guys discuss a character that doesnt **** link?

wait there is none

 

[A1lion835]

Kirby. His grab game messes with you. Every character can escape after the first uair in fthrow->uair (NO ONE who doesn't use kirby seems to know this, which surprises me), but you're still in a bad position after that. If you get dthrowed by kirby DO NOT attack him. You are asking for him to spotdodge/shield and regrab you. Be campy and stuff when you're at 0% and force us not to grab you until you have some damage on you; it lets you be free from all our grab follow-ups. Still be campy after that. If you get hit offstage, sorry, say goodbye to your stock : /. It's no secret that you have a bad recovery, and neither is the fact that we have one of the best gimping games in Brawl (I'm looking at you, meta knight). Our bair can cancel out your arrows, and we can QD with arrows just like you. I don't know how a Link would fight at close range, and I'm not going to give a solid rating until there's more posts, though I'd say it's 60:40 or better, kirby's favor.

 

[ZettaKuma]

Link falls short to Kirby.

First off arrows are useless. Kirby can duck under most of them, which means Link would have to get the timing right (which would lead to being open). Not only to mention Kirby's copy ability can use arrows too. The boomerang I'm not so sure about. If the boomerang hits Kirby that can lead to a follow-up attack. But the boomerang can be dodged. Sure it might bring Kirby closer to Link, but that means I can start charging up an attack and the boomerang will be me closer to Link (but Link can do the same thing). And bombs, can be simply swallowed by Kirby (giving him 5% damage but no knock back). It leaves him vulnerable, but can keep Kirby from dying. Also Kirby is generally faster than Link but his regular tilt attacks don't do much damage compared to Link's, but his hammer (TIME!, sorry couldn't help but make the joke ) can do some damage. Plus if Link is in the air Kirby can set up his own "wall of pain" against him.

And when it comes to playing around in the air and off-stage. Kirby pretty much wins. Link's
recovery is pretty bad and slow, giving Kirby an opportunity to gimp him even more. And if Link tries to use his spike against him, Kirby can fly out of the way or air-dodge, leading to a SD.
Then last but not least Kirbycide. When done correctly Link is a goner. Swallow him and spit him out under the stage or near a boundary. This pretty much is a guaranteed KO.

I would give the rating 67:33, once again Kirby's favor.


[/myfreaking2cents]

 

[fromundaman]

This matchup seems strange to me. You guys outrange us, outzone us, and out-camp us. Yet despite all that, when we get in, we can combo you to hell and back. On top of that, if we get you offstage, well... good game.

The key to winning this matchup is to continually camp us and space all your attacks.
Your Fsmash beats all our moves in range, as does Zair. Your Dair, UpB, Dsmash, and UpB all kill us fairly well (though you don't want to use UpB unless you're sure it works in this MU. A whiffed UpB can get you offstage and gimped.).
Your projectiles are also good at keeping us at bay, or at least until we get them.
Your Utilt is also a great anti-aerial option.


That being said, we also have a lot on you.

Almost all your moves are punishable, and your shieldgrab is basically useless, which along with slow OoS options gives us free reign to attack your shield (Though Kirbies, beware of Dair and UpB OoS!).
Once you're in the air, you are in a bad position, and if offstage, there's a good chance you are dead, even if you have a bomb.
Your weight makes you very comboable as well, and damage racking won't be a problem for us. Put that along with our good KO options and your bad recovery (which it must get annoying having people telling you how bad your recovery is every MU, so I apologize) and Link's got a problem.
Our short size makes Zair harder to hit with, and allows for less mixups with it.

On a side note, your DACUS doesn't seem to useful in this MU, since we're so short.


In this MU, I'd advise Kirby to approach from the air until he gets into Zair distance, at which point a grounded approach might be better.

For Link, I'd suggest he camp his *** off and not mispace anything. It will be a hard matchup to win.

Personally, I'd say 70-30 Kirby, but maybe I'm just biased, since even the best Links I've played have given me little trouble.


EDIT: ZettaKuma... Have you ever played/played against a Link? A lot of your info sounds wrong... Maybe I'm misunderstanding you?

 

[BRLNK88]

why dont you guys discuss a character that doesnt **** link?

wait there is none

**** that.
Ganondorf? Captain Falcon? both in Link's advantage. and he's actually pretty even with Snake. he outcamps Snake, and he's easy to hit with zair.