• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Link's Match-up Thread: Ryu would like an answer to a question.

Status
Not open for further replies.

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I can't justify using Diddy's banana's unless we had a legitimate lock or something on him. Diddy > most of the cast in terms of banana usage, Link's isn't that great. Part of it might be the fact Diddy's have practiced with using banana's but they still have that glide toss, the dribbling, the set-ups...it's nasty.

Boomerang does have some nice priority once and a while, but I'm not convinced it's great when some of the cast can throw moves out and outright beat it.
 

PK-ow!

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 28, 2008
Messages
1,890
Location
Canada, ON
As Links, we should all be very skilled at bull****ting our way through item usage making **** up about using items.

Picking up a banana, that makes Link's shenanigans go to 3: Bomb, boomerang, and banana. Plus Hookshot. I'd say in all this makes Link the equal of Toon Link for crazy traps.

You need to think laterally. With a banana on the ground, you introduce one step of complexity to a ground approach. With that in place, you can build a wall with a hole at just that one step... and now, you can cover for it.


All this is moot though, as Diddy can realistically string 0 to death on you with a few right guesses. DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD:

Don't underestimate Diddy's kill power. I think survivability is about the same. Plus Diddy has a Wolf spike, tough to use, but **** it, it's there.
You're the one who needs to gimp like a champ. If Didds goes off stage, read that Monkey flip and hose it. If not, pile Bomb after Bomb on top of Gale effect to make him miss that ledge.
Hell, I much prefer to play near the edge than in the air or on platforms afraid of bananas. I don't know how it changes risk, but it seems like higher rewards are there for me, and I can use that.
 

quirkynature

Smash Ace
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
974
Location
Queens, NY
As Links, we should all be very skilled at bull****ting our way through item usage making **** up about using items.

Picking up a banana, that makes Link's shenanigans go to 3: Bomb, boomerang, and banana. Plus Hookshot. I'd say in all this makes Link the equal of Toon Link for crazy traps.

You need to think laterally. With a banana on the ground, you introduce one step of complexity to a ground approach. With that in place, you can build a wall with a hole at just that one step... and now, you can cover for it.


All this is moot though, as Diddy can realistically string 0 to death on you with a few right guesses. DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD:

Don't underestimate Diddy's kill power. I think survivability is about the same. Plus Diddy has a Wolf spike, tough to use, but **** it, it's there.
You're the one who needs to gimp like a champ. If Didds goes off stage, read that Monkey flip and hose it. If not, pile Bomb after Bomb on top of Gale effect to make him miss that ledge.
Hell, I much prefer to play near the edge than in the air or on platforms afraid of bananas. I don't know how it changes risk, but it seems like higher rewards are there for me, and I can use that.
ZSS, T-Link, Wario, Snake, ROB and Peach also have items they use against Link. Sometimes, we don't need to bull**** our way through item usage making **** up about item usage. It's a lot easier to just use the item, instead.

Picking up a banana makes Link's shenanigans to to 4: banana, 'rang, bomb and arrow. And the clawshot, of course.

The banana, quite honestly, won't do anything to help Link because Diddy can just pick it up with a dash attack and get back ****** Link while Link is still stuck pulling out a bomb to cover the thrown banana.

Technically, thinking of a matchup against any character except Ganon is moot because, heck, they all have some advantage against Link. Diddy needs to guess a few right moves to string us 0 to death? King Dedede and Ice Climbers have metagames revolving around chaingrabs, so they don't have to think at all. Just grab and go.

As for gimping Diddy, I have no experience with that so no comment.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
I wouldn't say the cast - Ganon has an advantage on Link. I'd argue a bunch of characters go even with him at least.

As for the ratio, it's a 40:60 Diddy's favor at least. I'd even say it could be worse than that.

For now I'll say 4:6.

So we're gonna move on, any suggestions on people we haven't covered yet?
 

Huggles828

Aimin' to Misbehave
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
1,399
Location
Spartanburg, South Carolina
NNID
Huggles828
I really have no experience against a good Diddy so I don't really know but I play Diddy a little and I can see Link struggling against him, but don't really have anything to base it on.

I'd say Bowser or Yoshi next. We could also do Ice Climbers or Pit or Olimar.
 

Ryos4

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
1,404
Location
Hawaii
So im guessing everyone assumes i should talk here...

Frame Data on Pit
Polymorphic Blades
Pit Frame Data


This is a more complete guide of Pit's frame data. Unfortunately our previous frame data was never finished.

Reading frame data may be difficult at first, but I will try to make it quite simple.

I will list his data in this format.


Name of skill

Start up- The frames before Pit can hit you.

Hit Box- The frames Pit's attack is out and causes damage.

Cool Down- The frames that pit is vulnerable after his attack.

Hit Lag- The freeze frames during the Hit Box Duration.

Shield Stun- The frames, if shielded, after hit box out, can't react after an attack has connected.

Advantage- Frames I calculated they will be able to punish during cool down.

Shield Drop Advantage- Frames (7) after shield dropped. Remaining frames they will be able to punish during cool down.

Damage- Damage given, quite obvious.

Growth- How much knock back scales with damage.

Knockback- The value of how strong the move is.

Hitboxinfo- I will determine how many and be specific.

IASA- The time you can input a command during an action
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Attacks

Jab 1



Start up: 1- 4
Hit Box: 5 - 6
Cool Down: 7 - 23
Hit Lag: 6
Shield Stun: 0
Advantage: 13
Shield Drop Advantage: 5
Damage: 3
Growth: 10
Knockback: 28
Hitboxsinfo: 4
IASA:
- frame 7 for jab 2 if tapped
- frame 15 for jab 2 if held
- frame 19 earliest to finish move


Jab 2


Start up: 1-4
Hit Box: 5-6
Cool Down: 7-25
Hit Lag: 6
Shield Stun: 0
Advantage: 13
Shield Drop Advantage: 6
Damage: 3
Growth: 0
Knockback: 28
Hitboxsinfo: 4, closest ones give more directional knockback
IASA:
- frame 8 for jab infinate if rapid tapped
- frame 9 for jab 3 if tapped
- frame 15 for jab 3 if held
- frame 20 earliest to finish move

Jab 3


Start up: 1 -3
Hit Box: 4 - 10
Cool Down: 11 - 35
Hit Lag: 6
Shield Stun: 1
Advantage: 19
Shield Drop Advantage: 11
Damage: 5
Growth: 32
Knockback: 46
Hitboxsinfo: 4, all hits same direction
IASA:
- frame 1 for jab infinate to start instead.
- frame 19 earliest to finish move

Jab Infinite


Start up: 1-5
Hit Box:6-7, hits every 2 frames with 1 sec. intervals 11 attacks per rotation (continuous)
Cool Down: 34-45
Hit Lag: 4
Shield Stun: 0
Advantage: 9
Shield Drop Advantage: 2
Damage: 1's and 2 on farthest hitbox
Growth: 0, 19, 19, 30 according to closest to farthest hit box from body
Knockback: 64, 82, 82, 64 according to closest to farthest hitbox from body
Hitboxsinfo: 4 hit boxes repeating an up and down wave, farthest hitbox knocks them farthest.
IASA: None

Down Tilt


Start up: 1 - 5
Hit Box: 6 - 8
Cool Down: 9 - 29
Hit Lag: 9
Shield Stun: 1
Advantage: 19
Shield Drop Advantage: 12
Damage: 11
Growth: 50
Knockback: 32
Hitboxsinfo: first 2 hits downwards, last 2 hits upwards
IASA: None

Forward Tilt


Start up: 1 - 13
Hit Box: 14 - 16
Cool Down: 17 - 40
Hit Lag: 9
Shield Stun: 2
Advantage: 23
Shield Drop Advantage: 13
Damage: 12
Growth: 12
Knockback: 95
Hitboxsinfo: 4, all hits same direction
IASA: frame 39 =_=;

Up Tilt

1

2

3


Start up: 1
Hit Box: 2, 8 - 10, 15 - 18
Cool Down: 19 - 35
Hit Lag: 0, 7, 7
Shield Stun: 0, 0, -1*
Advantage: 16
Shield Drop Advantage: 9
Damage: 3, 6 ,7
Growth: 0, 0 , 60
Knockback: -
Hitboxsinfo: -
IASA: None
* apparently you can react during the final hit box is out


Dash Attack



Start up: 1 - 6
Hit Box: 7 - 9
Cool Down: 10 - 45
Hit Lag: 9
Shield Stun: 4
Advantage: 32
Shield Drop Advantage: 20
Damage: 9, 12, 11, 11 from closest hitbox to farthest
Growth: 14
Knockback: 64
Hitboxsinfo:-
IASA: frame 41


Smashes


Forward Smash

1

2

Start up: 1 - 5
Hit Box: 6 - 8, 18 - 20
Cool Down: 21 - 47
Hit Lag: 7, 9
Shield Stun: 0, 2
Advantage: 27
Shield Drop Advantage: 17

Charged- First hit on 5

Down Smash

1

2


Start up: 1 - 4
Hit Box: 5 - 6, 18 - 20
Cool Down: 21 - 40
Hit Lag: 10, 8
Shield Stun: 3, 1
Advantage: 20
Shield Drop Advantage: 24, 12

Charged- First hit on 4

Up Smash

1

2

3


Start up: 1 - 5
Hit Box: 6, 11, 18
Cool Down: 19 - 46
Hit Lag: 6, 5, 8
Shield Stun: 1, 1, 2
Advantage: 28
Shield Drop Advantage: 18

Charged- First hit on 4



Aerials


Down Aerial

1

2


Start up: 1 - 9
Hit Box: 10 - 12
Cool Down: 13 - 36
Hit Lag: 9
Shield Stun: 4
Auto cancel IASA:
- IASA 6 frames before hitboxes out
- IASA on 36 from auto cancel.
- First Aerial Frame on 37.
Landing Lag: 30

Forward Aerial



Start up: 1 - 11
Hit Box: 12 - 15
Cool Down: 16 - 38
Hit Lag: 10
Shield Stun: 1
Auto cancel IASA: 28
Landing Lag: 15

Neutral Aerial

multi hits

Final hit


Start up: 1 - 3
Hit Box: 4, 7, 10, 13, 16, 19, 22, 25
Cool Down: 26- 51
Hit Lag: 5 per hit 6 on last hit box
Shield Stun: 1
Auto cancel IASA:
- IASA 3 frames before hitboxes out
- IASA on 30 from auto cancel.
Landing Lag: 30

Back Aerial



Start up: 1 -8
Hit Box: 9 - 25
Cool Down: 26 - 39
Hit Lag: 7 , 10 on Sweet Spot
Shield Stun: 2, 6 on Sweet Spot
Auto cancel IASA: 28
Sweet spot: 9 - 10
Landing Lag: 15

Up Aerial



Start up: 1 - 8
Hit Box: 9-10, 12-13, 15-16, 18-19, 21-22, 24-25
Cool Down: 26 - 44
Hit Lag: 5
Shield Stun: 0
Auto cancel IASA:
- IASA 4 frames before hitboxes out
- IASA on 37 from auto cancel.
Landing Lag: 30

Glide Attack

1

2

Start up: 1 - 5
Hit Box: 6 - 11
Cool Down: 12 - 34
Hit Lag: 9
Shield Stun: 4



Grabs

Standing Grab



Start up: 1 - 5
Hit Box: 6 - 7
Cool Down: 8 - 29
Advantage: 22

Dash Grab



Start up: 1 - 9
Hit Box: 10 - 11
Cool Down: 12 - 39
Advantage: 28

Pivot Grab



Start up: 1 - 8
Hit Box: 9 - 10
Cool Down: 11 - 35
Advantage: 25




Specials


Palutena's Arrow



Start up: 1 - 19
Hit Box: 20 - Infinite
Cool Down: 21 - 43
Hit Lag: 6 - 9 Charge Dependent
Shield Stun: 1
Advantage: 23
Shield Drop Advantage: [14] - (hit lag(7 through 9) - ( distance)

6 frames to hit if arrow is charged
7 frames per direction changed while charging
Travel 19 frames across Battle Field
Travels 22 frames across Final Destination

Angel Ring



Start up: 1 - 11
Hit Box: 12 - 13* 15 - 16, etc etc , 39 - 40 (continuous)
Cool Down: 41 - 63
Hit Lag: 5
Shield Stun: 0
Advantage: 23
Shield Drop Advantage: 15

Wind Box starts hits on 41
ART cancels on frame ??
* Hits on frame 12 but damages on 13.



Mirror Shield



Start up: 1 - 3
Super Armor: 4 - 5 (ground only)
Reflects: 6 - 25
Reflect Physical Attacks: 6 - 17
Cool Down: 26 - 39
Advantage: 14
Shield Drop Advantage Lol: 6

Wing of Icarus



Invincibility: 1 - 4 - (5) body can be hit but technically invincible. (ground only)
Wind Box: 5 only
Duration: 195
Ground WoI: 29 Before Canceling
Aerial WoI: 17 Before Canceling
Fatigued Land: 40

A Wing Dash is actually only 27 frames.
Start up: Jump 1 - 6
WoI: 7- 24
Cancel WoI: 25 - 27




Recovery


Slip

Standing slip (walking into banana)
Invincible: 1-6
Cool Down: 7- 21

Turning slip (like a pivot slip)
Invincible: 1-7
Cool Down: 8- 25

Dash Slip (Initiating a dash)
Invincible: 1-8
Cool Down: 9- 38

After the animation is done for slipping you can initiate a recovery action

Attack
Start up: 1 - 18
Hit Box: 19 -20, 30 - 31
Cool Down: 32 - 51
Invincibility: 1 - 8


Slip Stand
Duration: 29
Invincibility: 1 - 17

Slip Roll Forward
Duration: 35
Invincibility: 1 - 10

Slip Roll Back
Duration: 35
Invincibility: 1 - 10

In summary, the same as our normal recovery but with less invincibility. Attack recover starts 2 frames slower.


Ledge under 100%

Attack
Start up: 1 - 23
Hit Box: 24 - 28
Cool Down: 29 - 55
Hit Lag: 9
Invincibility: 1 - 23
Advantage: 26

Jump
Duration: 16
Invincibility: 1 - 15


Stand
Duration: 34
Invincibility: 1 - 26


Roll
Duration: 49
Invincibility: 1 - 27


100% and over


Attack
Start up: 1 - 37
Hit Box: 38 - 42
Cool Down: 43 - 69
Hit Lag: 8
Invincibility: 1 - 37
Advantage: 26

Your body isn't in a normal state till after you attack finished unlike the attack if under 100%, your body isn't normal till after invincibility

Jump
Duration: 19
Invincibility: 1 - 22

Stand
Duration: 59
Invincibility: 1 - 55

Roll
Duration: 79
Invincibility: 1 - 50


Floor Recovery


Attack
Start up: 1 - 15
Hit Box: 16 -18, 23 - 25
Cool Down: 26 - 49
Invincibility: 1 - 28
Advantage: 22

Stand
Duration: 29
Invincibility: 1 - 22

Roll Forward
Duration: 35
Invincibility: 1 - 20

Roll Back
Duration: 35
Invincibility: 1 - 25



Evasion

Shield is on Frame 1

Side Step/ Spot Dodge
Duration: 25
Invincibility: 2 - 20

Back Roll
Duration: 32
Invincibility: 4 - 17

Forward Roll
Duration: 27
Invincibility: 4 - 17

Aerial Dodge
Duration: 39
Invincibility: 4 - 29


Taunts

Up Taunt: 90

Side Taunt: 135
IASA: on 119

Down Taunt: 120
IASA: on 109


Miscellaneous

Jump start: 5 +(1) dead frame if not a buffered aerial.
Soft Land: 2
Hard Land: 5
Short Hop: 40 Fast falls on 24 or frame perfect is 23
Short Hop Fast Fall: 30 or frame perfect is 29
Full Hop: 60 Fast Falls on 33
Full Hop Fast Fall: 45
Glide FAIL: Slides 1 - 29

Ledge
Invincibility Frames: 46
Ledge Grab Lag Frames: 24
Ledge Drop Frame: 26

Thanks for reading. It is not completely finished, but I am motivated to finish it.
If I missed anything, please Let me know.
Well as far as i can tell Link should have the upper hand at mid range combat. Pits arrows can be blocked by a number of things Link's Bombs, Arrows, Range, Zair, Nair, and Bair as far as i know. There might be others. Also the number of projectiles Link can use at once is much more dangerous then a simple arrow spam. Also arrow spam leaves Pit stationary for the most part an easier target to throw stuff at. He both has better range and knock back then Pit does as well.

Close range combat would probably go to Pit. Overall hes got nice speed and combo ability when in close. Fthrow chain grabs work at early percents against Link. Infinite Jab>Fsmash/Angel Rings are pretty dangerous and can do about 20-40% damage in one combo. Usually DI away from infinite jabs or you can easily eat an Fsmash to the face. Utilts are fast, Ftilts have long range, and Dtilts put his opponent in the perfect spot to follow up with Uair.

Aerial combat is kind of one sides in this match. Pit will like to approach from below Link using Uair which can cut through any of Link's aerials, even Dair if placed correctly. However, Link's aerials seem to ground cancel better then Pits do. But overall, Pit is more mobile in the air with fairly decent range and priority vs Link. Only chance Link has is coming from below Pit, as Dair is Pits weakest aerial in terms of usefulness.

Off stage Link is a complete disadvantage. For Link recovering. Pit can gimp Link many ways. Arrows, chase down with a Wing refresh, or just mirror Shield his spin attack. Pit has a decent wall of pain with his Fair, not that great but good enough to stop Link who has no real options to counter it. Also if you choose to tether recover, reel in asap. As Pit could just run off stage fast fall into weak Bair>Stage spike>Foot stool, and that means death.

Pit recovering. He has many ways to recover, basic DI back and recover low, Glide, WoI, Arrows while he recovers, ect. Link probably shouldnt chase him and just spam projectiles at Pit to just rack up damage. Best and only real chance for a gimp is if he chooses to recover low and forced to use WoI. Bair or Nair would work best against Pit in his WoI. Though if he chooses to do something stupid and fly toward using WoI a simple projectile can take him out, arrows and Rang work best as bombs may give him enough height to recover.

OOS:
Link and Pit have kind of the same ability to OOS. Link's are all rather junk and so are Pits. However, if you are directly on top of Pit watch out for Utilt, it comes out on frame 2 or something like that, but has very bad horizontal range.

Approaching with Pit is rather hard. Must used are Nair, Arrows, Fair. However, ive used sliding Dtilts as well. Speaking of sliding, both Pit and Link have very similar lengths in sliding from pivot boosts and pivot landing. There are 4 attacks to watch out for out of a slide. Fsmash, Ftilt, Dtilt, and Dsmash all have okay slide potential. Dtilt is rather shallow but it still moves slightly. Also note that Pit's DAC goes about half as far to about as far as Link's DAC, but its nearly worthless in terms of damage, hit box, and knock back.

A good Pit will make use of his gliding. There are a few variable you need to watch out for. The normal momentum adjustment, flying up and down. Pit has the fastest glide. Glide shifting, where Pit fast falls before his glide pushing him about 1 and a half pit heights in the air. Jumping out of glide. And finally glide attack. Pits glide attack also has very little ending lag when canceled on the ground, and it induces a huge slide which he can use in any of his moves. Most common are jabs, Fsmash, and Usmash. However, be awere that he can also grab if he knows you are going to shield it. But overall its fairly safe to shield grab if you time it well.

When Pits on the ledge. He is fairly good at planking with using his Uair, Fair, Bair, and Arrows. Best thing to do against it IMO is to just stand back far enough that your bombs explode on the ledge in a weak throw so you can easily just spam them. Also be aware of him ledge stalling with WoI, as i can push Link backwards and protect him from arrows and possibly rang.

Overall Link has a great chance of surviving to high percents as long as he avoids being gimped. Due to Pits weak kill power, however a fresh Fsmash or Bair could kill Link from like 90-120% i think, depending on placement. However, Link may have the same problem against Pit. While Pit is a lot lighter, he will almost always make it back if he doesn't die. I've survived past 180% against many characters. Though a good Dsmash/Dair can kill pit in the early 100s. I'm not sure about Links fsmash as whenever i play against a Link they stale the crap out of that move.

Anyway most of this stuff is just my opinion. Hopefully other Pits will stop by.

Also feel free to check out the Ultimate Pit Guide that i am currently running/organizing for more character based information. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=181610
 

standardtoaster

Tubacabra
Joined
Nov 26, 2009
Messages
9,253
Location
Eau Claire, Wisconsin
One more thing that I have found out about pit vs link is that pit's arrows will clink with link's shield and won't do him damage. So as long as link is just standing there doing nothing, he's pretty much protected from the front chest area.
 

Ryos4

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
1,404
Location
Hawaii
Yeah but a good pit usually tends to angle arrows up or down to avoid the possibility of them being reflected back to him. Pit could easily just aim at Link's feet if hes standing or his head of his crouching.

Also now that you mention arrows. Dont give Pit too much free time or he might set up a complex arrow loop or rain on you that could trap and stun you long enough for him to go into the kill. Though overall its mostly for show. They take a lot of effort and concentration and they dont do much damage or have any kill potential in themselves.

But some Pits have perfected arrow loops that they can actually hit their target fairly often. Though dont just blindly air dodge them as that could be just what they want. and they could be sneaking in for an aerial after you air dodge the arrow.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,920
Location
Colorado
A last note about Diddy: Bananas are 'piercing' in other words they aren't affected by standard attacks like Nair. Link's range attack will affect them and Hylian shield will block them. Dash attack is great for catching blocked bananas and if Link's defensive, he can spam and wait for Diddy to throw the banana then block it with an arrow or shield>Dash attack grab it. Don't be aggressive, Link has a lot of fake out and spam options to limit diddy holding a banana.
Link has great DI too. DI multi-hit moves and counter; we have the disjointed reach. 60-40 Diddy.
Pit:
As ALWAYS Link need to space well. Link out reaches Pit with (I think) every attack, some more than others. Pit is faster and can easily gimp Link. Someone described it like a watered down version of MK's gimping. Pit has many multi-hit attacks that Link can DI out of and counter: Pit's Fsmash/Angel Ring> DI out and Fsmash counter. Pit's multi-hit air attacks DI up or out and Nair/airdodge/Zair depending. Grab out prioritizes Pit's Angel Ring and Mirror Shield.
Bombs/Zair/Utilt are very useful verses Pit. Dair is risky but it's high priority can lead to early KOs in the air. You can start a slow Dair then fast fall it when Pit's attack ends- Link's super gimp-able so don't be predictable. Jabs outreach Pit's ground moves and stop approaches/chains.
All standard attacks stop light arrows if the hitbubbles connect and Link isn't hit. Nair can stop arrow gimps. With good timing you can jab through arrows up close. It's possible with godly timing to Fsmash/double Fsmash through light arrows but don't bother.
Link has powerful KOing moves vs light Pit, besides the usual Smashes, Dair, and Utilt. Uair counters Pit gliding high above Link. Fair's a good spacing tool. Ftilt's slow with a huge attack sweep. Drop bombs When Pit tries to circle under the stage. Grab>pummel>Uthrow KOs around 150% on up depending on the stage.
Pit's air juggling and gimping tip the scales in his favor. I'd say... 60-40 Pit. Link is best away from the edges and low near or on the stage.
Edit:
CP Brinstar, PS1 and Halberd are good too. Ban Frigate or RC.
 

Ryos4

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
1,404
Location
Hawaii
YI is also a bad stage for Pit as he cant fly under it and theres no Lip to hide under while recovering low making him an easy target for Dair. But i have to agree with brinstar, i couldn't play it at all with Pit, while as Link its pretty great.

Also im not too sure about PS1. All the walls could easily lead into something terrible for Link. He can infinite jab or AR you straight into a wall and space it just right and you cant get out. I once got a snake a really low percent up to 160% i think on PS2 rock, because he got stuck on a wall while i was using AR. Its a lot easier then setting up a jab lock and more powerful. Also the ledges on PS1 own my Link, they are just so hard to sweet spot.

Something pretty neat to watch out for is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFUfHguxFdg
While he cant do as much with locks and Link can Pit can still do it.

Also i think Pit's infinite jab can clank with arrows im not sure about boomerangs though.

Any as said. Bombs are very important for this match. Chances are Pits going to be in the air a lot. And Uthrow bombs are perfect to steer him in the direction you want him to go or for some damage. My strat against a Pit is usually to knock him in the air above me and then just never let him down. Because Pit is not very good at working his way down.

Though another thing to watch out for is wing stalling. Link's attacks are very laggy, and if Pit can bait an attack he can get a free attack in. Once pit gets inside hes a pretty good damage racker.
 

Vex Kasrani

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
4,824
Location
Philadelphia, PA
YI is also a bad stage for Pit as he cant fly under it and theres no Lip to hide under while recovering low making him an easy target for Dair. But i have to agree with brinstar, i couldn't play it at all with Pit, while as Link its pretty great.
Why hit him with dair, hit him with something that will make sure he doesnt come back, like nair, or arrows. Dair gives him a chance to DI correctly and being able to come back to the stage, while nair would knock him out of his upb, and he just dies.
 

M.C. Pee-Pants

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Messages
272
Location
Norcross GA
Why hit him with dair, hit him with something that will make sure he doesnt come back, like nair, or arrows. Dair gives him a chance to DI correctly and being able to come back to the stage, while nair would knock him out of his upb, and he just dies.[/QUOTE

atually this would be a good idea if u would want to save pit in dubz if he couldnt make it but u might end up killing him in the process
 

Admiral Pit

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
8,722
Location
Skyworld
NNID
GoldAngelPit
3DS FC
0903-2895-3694
I guess I should contribute with what I have on my little document. Don't expect everything to be 100% accurate:


_________
Matchup: Link (60:40 Pit's advantage)

The slower but heavier and original Link, known to be one of the worst characters in each of the smash series, mainly because he holds one of the worst recoveries in the games. However, he may cause trouble for Pit if the Pit isn't experienced, not to mention Link having his own good set of defenses which can compete with Pit's.

Range/Priority
Link has better range than Pit, but not by too much compared to some other characters, like Marth.

Weight/Power
Link sure seems heavier than he was in the last game, is 13th heaviest in the game, above Wolf and tied with CF. He doesn't have much power compared to most heavy characters, but still a bit more powerful than Pit in terms of KO power.

Camping
Link holds 3 different projectiles and a Shield, and Pit holds one of the best projectiles in the game, and 2 different reflectors.

-Arrows
Probably less threatening than TL's arrows. These are faster arrows with a bit more power. Link can arrow cancel like TL, but can't spam the arrows as fast because of Link's falling speed. He can SH B-air to arrow cancel, though. Link will have much less time to avoid the arrows due to their greater speed.

-Gale Boomerang
Differen't from TL's boomerang, this one has wind properties. It only does damage if thrown at the opponent. At a decent amount of damage, say like 50%, and depending on how close to Link you are when he throws it, and if you get hit by it, it can knock you down on the floor, making it a great set-up for Link's Jab Lock. At longer distances, Link can use 1 arrow to make you bounce on the floor as if you were getting locked, and then approach to attack. The more common outcomes from this is getting hit by an F-smash or Up-B, which are good KO moves for Link.
Be careful not to get pulled towards Link and all. You could probably reflect it and send Link back a bit, though if he stands still, the shield of his will negate the wind effects.

-Bombs
Not much different from TL's bombs, except they have higher killing potential than TL's, and can be hazardous for KOing when you're around 170%+.
If you grab one, you can choose to glide-toss with Pit's long-sliding, glide-toss, whether you need to space or close in.

Note: Link's shield can block some projectiles if Link is standing still, and can block Pit's arrows in this case. If Pit's arrows come in contact with the shield as long as Link is standing still or crouching, the shield will block the arrow, and push Link back just a bit. Link can't do this if he is moving or holding an item, or in his case, bombs.
A Pit can avoid hitting Link's Shield if he aims at Link's feet (if he isn't crouching) or at his head.

Now overall, Pit has the better defense a bit, though it's hard to deal with his own defense at times. So, both characters have to be careful, especially if the other is an expert camper.

Speed
Pit wins this category easily, but that doesn't mean that Link has some fast attacks of his own. N-air and Z-air are probably 2 examples.

General Strategies/Basics
Link can be more difficult especially against one who's good with his Z-air and projectile mix-ups to keep Pit at bay, or at least pressure him. Expect a good link to use his combination of projectiles and Z-airs, and some close-combat. For more on projectiles, go back to the "Camping" section.
Do note that Link's Z-air has 2 hitboxes, not 1 like TL's. The first hit is from touching the clawshot, and another when the clawshot's claw closes at the tip. This makes it harder to act and try to punish it.

Link's jab is capable of performing set-ups using the first 2 hits of it. It can include Jab > Jab > Grab or even Jab > Jab > D-smash if the opponent isn't careful. The set-ups are very hard to react to due to how fast it is, and the many different combinations there are after the jab. It could even be a standard 3-hit jab.

Note: Watch out for possible jab locks. You should be more aware when getting hit by a gale boomerang when you're close to Link when he had thrown it..

Edgeguarding/Gimping (Pit to Link)
Well, this is really fun for Pit since Link's recovery is already poor. Here's what Link has:

-A small Midair jump
Pretty much basic.

-Z-air tether recovery
It's the worst of the tether recoveries since it doesn't reach as far as some of the others, and Link's falling speed doesn't benefit him. Basically, if it fails, he probably is unable to recover.

-A very short-reaching Up-B
Has 5 hit-boxes (when used in the air), and can be mirror shielded easily compared to many other recoveries.

-Falls kinda fast
This obviously hurts Link.

This alone tells you that Link's recovery is below average. You pretty much can knock him out most times with Arrows, Mirror Shield, and edgehogging alone, but let's check it out more.
If Link is far away, try to arrow him and knock off his mid-air jump and push him back.
You can also edgehog him to help out, but it may require timing at times, depending on where Link is and how long his Up-B hitboxes will be. There are 5 hitboxes on his aerial Up-B, so remember that.
You can Mirror Shield Link's Up-B. It is one of the easier recoveries that you can Mirror Shield gimp. When you shield the Up-B, he pretty much lost a stock since his recovery is just well... bad.

Sometimes if Link is recovering from a high elevation, he may try to air dodge to Z-air to the stage ledge if you're going after him. If you predict this and go for grabbing the ledge and Link misses with Z-air, he ain't coming back.

When Link is on the ledge, he can use Z-air to grab the ledge again to try to trick you into doing something. Sometimes after doing a Z-air or 2 while on the ledge, he may try a ledge attack. You can easily shield punish the Link for doing this. Also be aware of Link trying to do an F-air back on the stage, or even doing something with a bomb if he's holding one.

Edgeguarding/Gimping (Link to Pit)
Link has his 3 projectiles that he could use against a recovering Pit, so expect them. Remember you can shoot arrows to push him back a bit while you recover, though you may just cancel out a projectile thrown. Try to manuver around the projectiles the best you can. If Link pursues you, it usually would be with N-air or B-air, maybe F-air, or even Z-air.

When on the ledge, try to watch your step when at high percentages, for a Link may try to get you with D-air. Try to avoid it (if it comes) and punish it quickly if you can predict it. Sometimes, you can expect a Link to jump up and try to drop a bomb on you to try to flush you out of camping. Generally, watch out for a projectile bombardment, and try to get back onto the stage whenever possible, for you may just keep on taking damage.

Stage CPs/Bans

CPs

-Lylat
The tilting stage affects Link's recovery even further, as well as some of his projectiles (while Pit can control his). Use this to your advantage.

-Frigate
The right side of the stage where there is no ledge to grab onto is the key here.

Bans

-Norfair
As much as this is one of Pit's better stages, Link can recover quite well here, mainly because recoveries barely matter here and this means Pit can barely gimp here. The stage is large, too, and in short, Link can last much longer here, and can put his clawshot to much more use since it can grab hold of each of the platforms..

-Pirate Ship
The water allows Link to recover, which keeps him from being gimped easily. Watch out for D-airs when you're in the water.

Synopsis
60:40 Pit's advantage
Pit can gimp Link really easily compared to many, as if Link's poor recovery wasn't bad enough. That's pretty much the big thing on why this is Pit's advantage. He can also CG Link slightly (probably 3 F-throws max) in attempts to get him off stage quickly and into a gimp., which is where Pit wants him.
The only true reason why this matchup isn't any worse for Link is because he has his own projectiles and defenses to use against Pit (Z-air included), which can make it hard for Pit to approach and defend himself at times, not to mention that if Pit isn't able to gimp Link quickly, Link can last a long time with his heavy weight/good DI combination.
________________

If I am missing some info, or if you want to help improve it, let me know. I also woulda posted this faster if it wasn't for the site being "down" at the time. And try not to bash me too much D=
 

Ryos4

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
1,404
Location
Hawaii
Thanks for the input.

It seems like this was written for the Pit boards specifically. You may need to rearrange things. Especially the CP and Bans which are backwards because they are written for Pit. Also there seems to be more basic info about Link than is really needed and less info on Pit.

Next time it think it would have been better to just write from scratch then just copying over what you wrote for the Pit boards or w/e.

Either way thanks for the help.
 

Admiral Pit

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
8,722
Location
Skyworld
NNID
GoldAngelPit
3DS FC
0903-2895-3694
Well, I'm lazy to write things in a Link's point-of-view, and it took me a long time just to get all that, though I wouldn't mind if a Link player would give his intelligent input on this so we get a Link's point-of-view on it.

Besides, we can always modify it to have it improved.
 

quirkynature

Smash Ace
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
974
Location
Queens, NY
Here's my version. Input appreciated:

Matchup ratio: 60:40 Pit (given)

Pit...jeez, when I picked up Brawl, I had absolutely no idea who he was (until E3 and some research). The first thing you notice about him is: wings. Strike gimping off. There's no way Link is gimping Pit offstage.

Range/Priority:
Link has better range than Pit, no questions asked. Link has better priority on some moves, while Pit has on others. Just be grateful Pit can't 'nado.

Weight/Power:
Link isn't getting Star-KO'd. Sorry, Pits, Link is too heavy for that. He is, however, getting gimped. Easily. Enjoy. As for power, Link has more KO power than Pit does, but compared to the pure comboing capability Pit has, that seems trivial (at times).

Speed:
Pit wins. No contest. His moves are faster, combo better and juggle sweetly (fat-@$$Link needs to diet and work out).

Camping:
Sure, we have a bomb, a boomerang and arrows. You have arrows that can twist mid-flight. The best way to block is to shield, not Hylian Shield...or get hit and deal with it. Don't ever full-charge an arrow, Links, because that's a good way to have Pit reflect them back at you. I learnt that the hard way...from my CPU. Link can successfully wall off most characters for a time using his projectiles, but Pit isn't one of them. Keep spamming and you'll get pushed back by your 'rang or hit by your arrow. I'd say this is in Pit's favor.

Arrows:
As stated above, fully charging an arrow is a great way to receive about 10% damage. And Pit can maneuver his. So there.

Boomerang:
I'd suggest using this as a surprise move (which is hard for 'rang spammers like me) because otherwise Pit just reflects them and you receive the pushback.

Bombs:
As suggested for Diddy's bananas, learn to Z-air catch items. Assuming Pit caught one of your thrown bombs and threw it right back, Z-air catch for a good game of catch and throw...until it explodes or somebody gets tired and just tosses it away.

Hylian Shield:
Virtually useless in this match-up. Pit can move his arrows in mid-flight to smack your feet or head. Go ahead, crouch and wait for an arrow loop to amaze you...or get hit in the head. I guess try canceling and airdodge with a Z-air is Pit is close enough, otherwise just shield (press the button). Need help on this, Ryos.

Defense:
Pit has better defense in part because of his speedy attacks (compared to Link), although (assuming you get enough breathing room), N-air or Z-air (as Admiral Pit stated) to get the pressure off. Pit's U-tilt's hitbox comes out in frame 2, so it's a good GTFO move. Our fastest is 7. A lot of Pit's moves come out by frame 6, including smashes, so beware.

General strategy:
Z-air is a friend, as always, but limit projectiles. Keep Pit at mid-range so you can use some hit-and-run tactics or learn to tip your attacks (if you alt or main Marth, you should already know how to tip so that's awesome). Throw in that occasional QDA to 'mix it up' and, for the love of all that's good, don't grab unless you shield Pit's ledge attack. It will result in epic, truly epic punishment. Don't let up on Pit. This is one match where playing defensively will get you killed all the more easily purely because of arrow tricks. He'll hack away at your shield from afar and then glide in for punishment. Rinse and repeat.

Edgeguarding:
You're kidding me, right? Gimping Pit is going to be almost impossible unless he's used up all his jumps and is on Wings of Icarus. In that case, spam away. Pit can attack once before he goes helpless, so if you're ledgehogging (without invincibility frames), goodbye one stock. Or Pit can just glide under the stage and come back out on the other side.

As for stages, I have no idea, so one of the more experienced Links will point you in the right direction. Admiral Pit pretty much hit it right on, though.
 

Ryos4

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
1,404
Location
Hawaii
I find grabbing useful regardless of the opponent (aside from air campy characters, which pit isn't.). You just have to grab smart.

Also Pit a few of Pits moves have some lag to them. Ftilt, Fair, and Usmash are slow to start and finish. Most if not all of Pits aerials are slow to finish and have no ground canceling ability. Link can go from Bair to Nair much faster then Pit can go from any aerial attack to another. And as a bunch of people said, alot of his moves are DIable thanks to the multi hit boxes. Nair, Uair, Utilt, Usmash, and Fsmash can all be SDIed out of.
 

Ryos4

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
1,404
Location
Hawaii
Its all about positioning.

If Dair goes straight into Pit and hits his body Link wins. If Dair goes into either sides of the blades and eventually Pits blades touch Link, Pit wins. Though if you fast fall it i doubt there's anything a Pit could do against it in time unless they see it coming. Though at the same time if they choose to air dodge it, a fast falling Dair is a lot easier to air dodge.

I'm pretty sure about this as I've manage to Uair through, TL, Sonic, Yoshi, and Bowsers Dair/Dspecial. I assume it works for Link as well, though the risk/reward doesn't seem as great as it is not 100% safe to approach from below and if you're following Link into the air and get hit, chances are that you are dead.
 

Huggles828

Aimin' to Misbehave
Joined
Mar 15, 2010
Messages
1,399
Location
Spartanburg, South Carolina
NNID
Huggles828
I find that Pit can outcamp Link due to Pit's projectile being so fast (three projectiles doesn't matter if they're all slower than the one the opponent has), plus he can reflect them back at Link. Pit's fsmash is just as fast as Link's jab; they clank if they hit. I try to stick at midrange if I can help it since Pit is faster than Link and beats him up close and can outcamp Link at very long rage.
 

Ryos4

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
1,404
Location
Hawaii
Well the fact that they are fast makes them really easy to spot dodge, air dodge, and shield. Though as said mid range is probably best. As at that range Link can throw all 3 of his projectiles from that distance, which will beat Pits arrow if more then one is thrown at a time. You have time to react to reflected projectiles. Also pits arrow start up and ending is rather laggy and i found myself to get punished a lot against either characters that have a fast approaching move like DAC, are short, or overall just fast. It gets worse if theres a decline in the stage that Pit is at the top of it. If the stage is sloping downward, i think Link could do a DAC from mid range and slide right under the arrow and into Pit. Also at mid range its quite easy to just hop over Pits arrows and hit him in the face with projectiles or zair.
 

Admiral Pit

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Messages
8,722
Location
Skyworld
NNID
GoldAngelPit
3DS FC
0903-2895-3694
I forgot to mention that Pit in general hates Yoshi's Island (The brawl one of course).
-It doesn't permit him to fly under the stage (this limits his recovering options),
-The Shy guys can block his arrows, which obviously limit his camping capability.
-Those little slopes at the ends of the stage limits Pit's ledge options when you're on stage, such as not allowing him to do an N-air or D-air back on stage without landing lag.

This is easily Pit's worst neutral and can be considered for use if the Pit did not strike/ban this stage. As for other stages, I may need to do more research on it.
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,920
Location
Colorado
One question: assume Link D-airs Pit's U-air. Which will has more priority?
Dair has the highest priority of attack moves without armor frames (not grab moves). If Dair hits it will either trade hits or over power the other attack and bounce if Dair's slow falling. But Dair's hit bubbles are close to Link's hurtbox or overlap it, so if Link is hurt before the hitbubbles connect Dair will be canceled. Most up attacks out range Dair, Pit's included. Dair lasts 51 frames; you can start it, wait for the opponent's attack to end and guide it into them.
I find that Pit can outcamp Link due to Pit's projectile being so fast (three projectiles doesn't matter if they're all slower than the one the opponent has), plus he can reflect them back at Link. Pit's fsmash is just as fast as Link's jab; they clank if they hit. I try to stick at midrange if I can help it since Pit is faster than Link and beats him up close and can outcamp Link at very long rage.
Mid-range is Link's strong position. Remember all range attacks, Zair, and Nair cancel or over power light arrows. Link can briefly out spam Pit until Pit moves.
 

quirkynature

Smash Ace
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
974
Location
Queens, NY
I'm guessing they're not too high if all range attacks (including 'rang) cancel. I know for a fact that if a bomb clashes with an arrow, the arrow cancels (hyuk hyuk) and the bomb explodes.
 

Ryos4

Smash Lord
Joined
May 10, 2008
Messages
1,404
Location
Hawaii
the bomb keeps going after it hits an arrow. Pits arrows have very poor priority. It doesn't really beat too many things.
 

quirkynature

Smash Ace
Joined
May 1, 2010
Messages
974
Location
Queens, NY
A fully charged arrow will kill the bomb, then?

I played the CPU and I threw a bomb at the same time it fired an arrow and the bomb exploded and I remember thinking "Good thing I didn't 'rang or it would have gone straight through". IDK
 

Rizen

Smash Legend
Joined
May 7, 2009
Messages
14,920
Location
Colorado
the pit' arrows have good priority?
Every standard attack Link has beats Light arrows if the hitbubbles connect and Link isn't hurt, which is hard to time except with Nair. Powershielding's the best option.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

Red Fox Warrior
Joined
Jun 15, 2008
Messages
27,486
Location
Milwaukee, Wisconsin
NNID
RedRyu_Smash
3DS FC
0344-9312-3352
Admiral Pit, you made nice insight on the MU.

Pit isn't someone to take lightly, granted this MU isn't really bad for Link but trust me, you can be surprised by Pit. While he doesn't excel at anything, he doesn't suck at anything in particular either.

I'm not very experienced with Pit so sorry if I can't help that much, only think I will say is that I wouldn't take Link to Norfair, it gives Pit more room and supposedly multi-ledge planking, it helps Link camp better and kill earlier from the top, be careful of Pit's bair at the sides, trust me that thing has really good KO power.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom