Link: The Hero of Smash Bros.

[Jeff the Killer]

Hello, everyone, I am Jeff the Killer, and I play as Link in Melee. Though I play as Marth, I play as Link the same amount as him. I will do multiple things:
Answer Questions about Link.
Give Combos.
Tell Advantages and Disadvantages with him vs other Characters.
And much more, just ask me a question and I will answer.

 

[KirbyKaze]

When is d-tilt good?

 

[Bigglestheman]

KirbyKaze is waiting Jeff.

There is already a Q&A thread Jeff.
Link's Take Over - Q&A and General Link Discussion

 

[Jeff the Killer]

@KirbyKaze: It is when the other character is directly below Link and Link uses the d-tilt at the right time to spike. BTW, quit following me.

 

[Skler]

KK was asking a trick question, the dtilt spike is actually best used never because it's terrible.

Actually, dtilt after a shield break or missed rest can set up for a dair. I guess it does kind of have a use.


Question: How do I combo Fox below 30%?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Dtilt is the same type of move as the Dsmash, its a juggle-launcher. The Dsmash and Dtilt both have their pros and cons, the Dtilt comboes better in most cases, has fewer frames overall, and I recognize it has a bit better sheild knockback and the spike hit is punishing CC abusers. The Dsmash sheildpokes, is better when CCing and a bit quicker out. Its a question of situation. I hated the dtilt a lot for not long ago but know Im starting to like it. Its better used as a spacing move in most cases, where you try to hit with the tip. I like the launch angle of the dtilt much better than the dsmash launch angle and tech chase with the dtilt instead of the dsmash at times.

EDIT: at skler, hmm, bomb -> fsmash -> double fsmash alt. aerial -> grab on landing lag -> tech chase?

 

[Skler]

If you try to use dtilt on somebody who is CCing they'll hit you before it comes out. That move is seriously slow enough to punish on reaction.

Dtilt is really good when it hits, it's just that it never hits. Any time somebody gets hits with the dtilt it's because they made a stupid mistake. Using it as a spacing tool is also dangerous because you can just jump over it using pure reactions. It's a very slow move.

It doesn't have enough benefits to warrant the terrible startup lag.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

If you try to use dtilt on somebody who is CCing they'll hit you before it comes out. That move is seriously slow enough to punish on reaction.

14/60 = .233...
so yeah thats within human reaction, but lets assume their move of choice is 4frames(lets ignore fox for a moment) then they'll only have 14-4 = 10 frames to react giving
10/60 = .166...
It is within human reaction, BUT at the very edge, its not usual for people to react that fast.
.14 is the best you can assume a human can acheive in plain reaction.
Try yourself:
http://www.fetchfido.co.uk/games/reaction/reaction_test.htm

Dtilt is really good when it hits, it's just that it never hits. Any time somebody gets hits with the dtilt it's because they made a stupid mistake. Using it as a spacing tool is also dangerous because you can just jump over it using pure reactions. It's a very slow move.

SHFFL Fair is considered good with its equal range and 21 frames from standing until hitbox. jab is considered good with its lacking followups that all are more risky than just going for the dtilt. Armada uses peach's dtilt thats only 2 frames faster in getting out and I would say we have more combo potential in our dtilt.

It doesn't have enough benefits to warrant the terrible startup lag.

it certainly does killing a midweight floaty from 55% on YS is a great feat.


That said I know you have proven you are a better player. I just dont like the negative kind of nothings possible attitude link mains have. There are lots of things noone even experiments with thanks to that attitude. Link is in no way a terrible character. Im adamant Dtilt has more uses than you let it have.

 

[Ripple]

you guys will be happy to learn that his tilts are faster in SD: Remix

 

[Skler]

14/60 = .233...
so yeah thats within human reaction, but lets assume their move of choice is 4frames(lets ignore fox for a moment) then they'll only have 14-4 = 10 frames to react giving
10/60 = .166...
It is within human reaction, BUT at the very edge, its not usual for people to react that fast.
.14 is the best you can assume a human can acheive in plain reaction.
Try yourself:
http://www.fetchfido.co.uk/games/reaction/reaction_test.htm

There was a time when tons of smashers took those tests, it usually ended up being ~.200 for them, some were faster some slower. People who play competitive video games tend to have better reaction times due to the twitchy nature of gaming. Also, every character has an option to prevent the dtilt that takes no time at all, shielding. Odds are that if your opponent is in dtilt range they can shield (or dash if they're one of those people) on reaction and punish it. The nice knockback (which isn't even that much better than the dsmash if not sweetspotted) is not worth the risks.

SHFFL Fair is considered good with its equal range and 21 frames from standing until hitbox. jab is considered good with its lacking followups that all are more risky than just going for the dtilt. Armada uses peach's dtilt thats only 2 frames faster in getting out and I would say we have more combo potential in our dtilt.

SHFFL fair is a very different move, it allows you to move during it and has almost no lag. You can space fairs -> jans on shields to force people to make a move. You can't space dtilts on a shield and expect anything but a grab from your opponent.

it certainly does killing a midweight floaty from 55% on YS is a great feat.

If you combo it into a dair, which requires your opponent to not DI properly and get hit by the dtilt in the first place. It's not easy to hit with.

That said I know you have proven you are a better player. I just dont like the negative kind of nothings possible attitude link mains have. There are lots of things noone even experiments with thanks to that attitude. Link is in no way a terrible character. Im adamant Dtilt has more uses than you let it have.

I'm not trying to be negative, and I don't think nothing is possible, I just know that the dtilt is a weak move and you have objectively better options than the dtilt. Why dtilt when you can dsmash? There is no situation except a broken shield or missed rest (where you can guarantee dtilt -> dair) where it is superior due to how much less likely it is to hit. If you miss a dtilt or dsmash you're going to get punished, so why use the slower move? Even the ftilt is a better spacing tool, edgeguard and combo out of dthrow at low %s. Ftilt is actually quite boss.

 

[Bigglestheman]

That said I know you have proven you are a better player. I just dont like the negative kind of nothings possible attitude link mains have. There are lots of things noone even experiments with thanks to that attitude. Link is in no way a terrible character. Im adamant Dtilt has more uses than you let it have.

I don't have that attitude you should have worded that better.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZ3pLPmFyv4#t=02m50s

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

There was a time when tons of smashers took those tests, it usually ended up being ~.200 for them, some were faster some slower. People who play competitive video games tend to have better reaction times due to the twitchy nature of gaming. Also, every character has an option to prevent the dtilt that takes no time at all, shielding. Odds are that if your opponent is in dtilt range they can shield (or dash if they're one of those people) on reaction and punish it. The nice knockback (which isn't even that much better than the dsmash if not sweetspotted) is not worth the risks.

SHFFL fair is a very different move, it allows you to move during it and has almost no lag. You can space fairs -> jans on shields to force people to make a move. You can't space dtilts on a shield and expect anything but a grab from your opponent.

You can dtilt after a WD some dash dancing a pivot, nothing suggests that you should stand still and do it. You trade wind up lag for wind down lag.


Sheilding is not really a problem, Dtilt has enough sheildpush that when spaced somewhat good, the dtilt cant be sheildgrabbed by other characters than marth, YL, Samus and Link. I dunno the frame advantage(disadvanteg, lol) but most characters doesnt seem to be able to WD or jump in before we can jab unless they are fox. Those 10 frames compared to Dsmash really matters especially when you compare winddown lag 40 for dsmash vs 25 for dtilt (if hit at first frame possible).

If you combo it into a dair, which requires your opponent to not DI properly and get hit by the dtilt in the first place. It's not easy to hit with.

I disagree as I cant really remember missing this combo. I usually end up in the same pool as Leffen and IVP and know this works on them, so Im pretty confident that a better link player should be able to land it more often and better if they gave it a chance.

I'm not trying to be negative, and I don't think nothing is possible, I just know that the dtilt is a weak move and you have objectively better options than the dtilt. Why dtilt when you can dsmash? There is no situation except a broken shield or missed rest (where you can guarantee dtilt -> dair) where it is superior due to how much less likely it is to hit. If you miss a dtilt or dsmash you're going to get punished, so why use the slower move? Even the ftilt is a better spacing tool, edgeguard and combo out of dthrow at low %s. Ftilt is actually quite boss.

Ftilt is nice vs doc, mario, CF and ganon as a edgeguard tool. Seems to hit them even if they try to sweetspot. Havent really found other ways to use it yet, cant get it to work onstage. But yup I agree that ftilt is damn boss.

Side note: I want this to be productive, it is atm, so lets keep it that way.

 

[Skler]

You can dtilt after a WD some dash dancing a pivot, nothing suggests that you should stand still and do it. You trade wind up lag for wind down lag.

The dtilt has too obvious of a startup animation to be useful though. It can't land reliably and is too easy to punish due to its small hitbox and large amount of lag.

Sheilding is not really a problem, Dtilt has enough sheildpush that when spaced somewhat good, the dtilt cant be sheildgrabbed by other characters than marth, YL, Samus and Link. I dunno the frame advantage(disadvanteg, lol) but most characters doesnt seem to be able to WD or jump in before we can jab unless they are fox. Those 10 frames compared to Dsmash really matters especially when you compare winddown lag 40 for dsmash vs 25 for dtilt (if hit at first frame possible).

The majority of the cast can punish dtilt on a shield because it has an 11 frame disadvantage if you use the IASA frames, every single character that isn't Bowser can WD into a grab/jab before Link can do anything but attempt to roll away. The ftilt, however, has greater shield knockback and stun, making it extremely awkward to try and WD out of into punishes (and the increased range making it less likely to be punished in general).

I disagree as I cant really remember missing this combo. I usually end up in the same pool as Leffen and IVP and know this works on them, so Im pretty confident that a better link player should be able to land it more often and better if they gave it a chance.

I recall it being iffy for myself, but it probably depends on matchups and such. If you hit with the meteor you will always be able to dair unless they're extremely low or high, but with the outer parts I'm not sure if it's a true combo. It's worth looking at.

Ftilt is nice vs doc, mario, CF and ganon as a edgeguard tool. Seems to hit them even if they try to sweetspot. Havent really found other ways to use it yet, cant get it to work onstage. But yup I agree that ftilt is damn boss.

Side note: I want this to be productive, it is atm, so lets keep it that way.

Ftilt is a very useful move and edgeguard tool in certain matchups. It has a tough to spot animation, leans Link back slightly, hits behind, above and in front of Link, and even hits below the stage. It also has an awkwardly large amount of shield stun, making it difficult to punish, and very long range. It covers such a wide area people can't really punish you for standing still and doing an ftilt unless they time their movement to come in during your lag, which isn't the easiest thing in the world to do.

Doc and Mario can get around the ftilt if they sweetspot right, but it can always hit Ganon. CF is iffy. It does wonders against pretty much the entire cast when edge guarding from the stage.

Dthrow ftilt also works in semi-floaty matchups at certain percents. Nobody expects the ftilt.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

If they just got 11 frames thats actually quite good IMO, considering the quickest jump+grab equals 11 frames, add to that a few frames for sliding forward and the small whiff which I assume most people will have against an uncommon character like link its not THAT bad. I agree its a bit iffy to get the mind around how to use it fluently and I dont think I can explain it right now, I should take some notes next time I play to see more exact if you want some things to try.

You dont need to hit with the spike, I actually prefer not to, you just need to go for the dair without thinking twice, jump forward and dair/uair and then react to DI, no matter if there is a platform or not, as you will catch them when they do stand tech, flubb their tech and, if you correctly positioned before dtilt hits, both rolls with good reactions.

A move I really dunno how to use is the Usmash, I usually just try to sheildpoke people on platforms with it and thats it, but I want to find more uses as it has really nice combo potential, any input on that one?

EDIT: dewalloftextified a little.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I think d-tilt is usable as a counterpoke. Namely if you predict or react to them doing something that d-tilt outranges (which is probably some kind of laggy ground move). Although in that kind of situation you have to weigh it against other things like grab and f-smash and decide if it's still the better option. It might be, but Link's grab is almost always useful to him. His grab is a lot more punishable though so... yeah. Being baited for d-tilting is significantly less bad vs numerous characters.

Aside from that kind of thing, I don't think d-tilt has much further utility. It's safe on block when spaced but... I tend to think you have better things vs shields anyway. And a lot of characters like to jump OOS to counter Link's grab and d-tilt doesn't help there.

 

[Skler]

In the time it takes for dtilt's hitbox to come out your grab would have reached pretty much max range, dash or standing.

I honestly don't think the dtilt has practical uses, it's too easy to avoid and punish. At least the dsmash is a quick move to use out of a CC or a good finisher on floaties, the dtilt is pretty much just a worse dsmash.

The only moves Link has no frame disadvantage on are:

Perfectly timed fair (no advantage either, but it does mean fair crossovers are effective against everyone but spacies and puff)

First hit of fsmash (you have a +1 frame advantage for the second hit of fsmash, otherwise a HUGE frame disadvantage)


Fun fact: Link can guarantee a grab against any character by using a boomerang behind his opponent, dairing their shield as it passes through them, and canceling his dair animation with his catch animation, and canceling his catch animation with his shield into a grab. There was a period of time where I worked on making this useful, but it's pretty much impossible. The dair does have enough shield stun to make this work if you do it perfectly, though.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Ah, I see. Makes sense.

I still love your sig btw.

 

[Problem2]

Fun fact: Link can guarantee a grab against any character by using a boomerang behind his opponent, dairing their shield as it passes through them, and canceling his dair animation with his catch animation, and canceling his catch animation with his shield into a grab. There was a period of time where I worked on making this useful, but it's pretty much impossible. The dair does have enough shield stun to make this work if you do it perfectly, though.

I'm going to work on that. A lot of players like to side-step or avoid the boomerang altogether though, so it will still take some risk assessment by the Link player.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

In the time it takes for dtilt's hitbox to come out your grab would have reached pretty much max range, dash or standing.

I honestly don't think the dtilt has practical uses, it's too easy to avoid and punish. At least the dsmash is a quick move to use out of a CC or a good finisher on floaties, the dtilt is pretty much just a worse dsmash.

The dtilt and dsmash has two very different purposes, I dont consider them the same when I use them.

First hit of fsmash (you have a +1 frame advantage for the second hit of fsmash, otherwise a HUGE frame disadvantage)

Thought it was a +5 advantage from first swing to second swing.

Fun fact: Link can guarantee a grab against any character by using a boomerang behind his opponent, dairing their shield as it passes through them, and canceling his dair animation with his catch animation, and canceling his catch animation with his shield into a grab. There was a period of time where I worked on making this useful, but it's pretty much impossible. The dair does have enough shield stun to make this work if you do it perfectly, though.

Thats nice, Ill keep that in the back of my head. For those that are concerned, dair hits most spotdodgers.

Might add a trick too: at some cases when you are at a platform and has faired the correct follow up should be slip-off aerial hookshot -> fair/nair.

 

[Skler]

I'm going to work on that. A lot of players like to side-step or avoid the boomerang altogether though, so it will still take some risk assessment by the Link player.

It's really, really not easy to do. I recall that you need to start the dair as you're already in the other person's hurtbox, so it comes out as you're inside of their shield. It pushes them back a bit, you hit the ground, you catch your boomerang, you shield, you grab, FREE GRAB!

Unfortunately a free grab that will almost never happen.

It is hilarious to SH dair a shield and get a free grab, though.

 

[Jeff the Killer]

Let me tell everyone that d-tilt is useful for predictable recoveries with characters like Fox, Falco, Mario, Luigi, Marth, Roy, Link, Young Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc.

Anyways, I just found out Link can do a meteor smash! I was like WTF when I saw it. I don't know how I did it, but it was crazy. This is not the d-tilt, this is an air attack (not d-air). So this makes him the ONLY character who can Semi-spike, spike and meteor an opponent.

With perfect timing, use the U-air attack with the direct BOTTOM of Link's Master Sword. This is an instantaneous perfect attack, meaning that you need the first attack frame to do it.

 

[Ripple]

So this makes him the ONLY character who can Semi-spike, spike and meteor an opponent.

:ganonmelee:

With perfect timing, use the U-air attack with the direct BOTTOM of Link's Master Sword. This is an instantaneous perfect attack, meaning that you need the first attack frame to do it.

this is the probably the invinsible ceiling glitch as Link does not have a spike

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Let me tell everyone that d-tilt is useful for predictable recoveries with characters like Fox, Falco, Mario, Luigi, Marth, Roy, Link, Young Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc.

Anyways, I just found out Link can do a meteor smash! I was like WTF when I saw it. I don't know how I did it, but it was crazy. This is not the d-tilt, this is an air attack (not d-air). So this makes him the ONLY character who can Semi-spike, spike and meteor an opponent.

With perfect timing, use the U-air attack with the direct BOTTOM of Link's Master Sword. This is an instantaneous perfect attack, meaning that you need the first attack frame to do it.

Err... Ok?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Let me tell everyone that d-tilt is useful for predictable recoveries with characters like Fox, Falco, Mario, Luigi, Marth, Roy, Link, Young Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc.

Anyways, I just found out Link can do a meteor smash! I was like WTF when I saw it. I don't know how I did it, but it was crazy. This is not the d-tilt, this is an air attack (not d-air). So this makes him the ONLY character who can Semi-spike, spike and meteor an opponent.

With perfect timing, use the U-air attack with the direct BOTTOM of Link's Master Sword. This is an instantaneous perfect attack, meaning that you need the first attack frame to do it.

 

[Dan Salvato]

It's possible that the bottom of Link's u-air is a meteor hitbox, because I believe HAL uses the "meteor" component as a hack to increase hitstun on a move.

As for d-tilt, I rarely use it. I don't like to use it against recoveries because it doesn't do a very good job hitting below the ledge. I prefer f-tilt, or just jumping off and nairing when applicable.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I dont think dtilt is very good againt recoveries, I think it got a whole different purpouse as a combo extender and combo starter. In many situations where the dsmash sends to high the dtilt does the job just perfectly, its also much safer on sheild so its safer to just "try".

 

[Skler]

Let me tell everyone that d-tilt is useful for predictable recoveries with characters like Fox, Falco, Mario, Luigi, Marth, Roy, Link, Young Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Bowser, etc.

Anyways, I just found out Link can do a meteor smash! I was like WTF when I saw it. I don't know how I did it, but it was crazy. This is not the d-tilt, this is an air attack (not d-air). So this makes him the ONLY character who can Semi-spike, spike and meteor an opponent.

With perfect timing, use the U-air attack with the direct BOTTOM of Link's Master Sword. This is an instantaneous perfect attack, meaning that you need the first attack frame to do it.

Link's dtilt is worse than the ftilt for edgeguarding. It has vertical knockback and might send them too high for you to follow up. Ftilt works at every % and is safer in general.

Also, the meteor on dtilt is so close to Link you'll often get hit when using it, and they can meteor cancel anyways (it's not that fast, not like Ganon's dair).

Uair for shield stabbing is legit.

 

[Zodiac]

When is Link's nair good?

 

[Onomanic]

When is Link's nair good?

It's his worst aerial. You should always be using dair.

 

[Problem2]

No son, you should zone your opponent with z-air!

 

[Goast]

fthrow chaingrab guaranteed lol

Here's somewhat of an akward question what are like 3 biggest things a link player should avoid or develop in order to improve his/her game.

 

[Bigglestheman]

fthrow chaingrab guaranteed lol

Here's somewhat of an akward question what are like 3 biggest things a link player should avoid or develop in order to improve his/her game.

Avoid blaming the character for why you're not doing well.

 

[BRLNK88]

If Armada goes Pichu against Mango's Fox and loses I think he can blame the character...

 

[Goast]

If Armada goes Pichu against Mango's Fox and loses I think he can blame the character...

I think the player still gets the blame or an entirely different reason.

 

[BRLNK88]

Skill differential and player mistakes take first blame, character choice comes second.
However, its wrong to not assign any blame to the character you choose, otherwise tier lists wouldn't exist.
FACT, Link has a very difficult time dealing with Fox, in a match b/w a Fox and Link player of equal skill and MU experience, the Link player is going to have a harder time.
Character disadvantages only become augmented when there is a skill gap as well. The only times I do well with Link against a more skilled player are when they're not comfortable with the MU.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

kinda schizo post, lol

three most important things (IMO):
1. maximize uairs
2. landing dairs
3. how to play it "safe"(ie space and camp)

aerial hookshot might not be as bad as one might think, its really nice when you find those slip-offs for it.

Blaiming the character is just a stupid john for people that arent good enough to win tourney but still want their claim to fame. What you should do though is accepting that it is a challenge. If you dont like the challenge, dont pick a low tier. Thats my mindset at least and it nutures my will to improve my game and develop my character.

 

[BRLNK88]

Blaming the character is OK as long as you don't solely blame your failure on the character.
In my case, Link is my best character but its unfortunate he's a low tier, thus why I've switched to PM, and maybe later on Melee SD Remix, that Link looks sick.

 

[Goast]

kinda schizo post, lol

three most important things (IMO):
1. maximize uairs
2. landing dairs
3. how to play it "safe"(ie space and camp)

aerial hookshot might not be as bad as one might think, its really nice when you find those slip-offs for it.

Blaiming the character is just a stupid john for people that arent good enough to win tourney but still want their claim to fame. What you should do though is accepting that it is a challenge. If you dont like the challenge, dont pick a low tier. Thats my mindset at least and it nutures my will to improve my game and develop my character.

I'm not gonna fuel the blame the character argument for this post. It's a dumb debate and shouldn't bulk up this thread.

Uiars and Dair's are tricky for me. I almost never use dair and Uair unless I'm almost positive I won't get punished if they miss.

I really like the third advice. I tend to want to play overly aggressive with link.

 

[linkking]

on the normal wii and nunchuck I cant do the same moves is it just limited compaired to the gamecube controller or are their diffrent ways?

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Some occasions I often dair is when they are crouching trying to CC your getup from the ledge, tech chasing on platforms, bomb -> dair, or on YS or PS mountain or fire transformation utilt->dair, otherwise you have the usual dtilt-> dair, weak-hit uair -> dair, dash attack -> dair.

Uairs is about getting them above you, grabs, utilts, dtilts, dsmashes, bombs, rang, whatever, everything hits up anyways lol, uair is probably the best tool to keep them there, its not so much about comboing actually, though it doesnt hurt if you make the hits unescapable of course.

on the normal wii and nunchuck I cant do the same moves is it just limited compaired to the gamecube controller or are their diffrent ways?

Think you might want to go here instead:
http://www.smashboards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=144