Link: The Hero of Smash Bros.

[Goast]

everyone talks about uiar. I guess I never invested as much interest in it. Thanks for the tips

 

[Skler]

fthrow chaingrab guaranteed lol

Here's somewhat of an akward question what are like 3 biggest things a link player should avoid or develop in order to improve his/her game.

Spacing (including when you can use projectiles and not get smacked for it): Because you can't win if you can't pressure your opponent while staying safe.

Recovery/DI: Because you can't win if you keep getting edgeguarded and losing stocks when you don't need to.

Defensive options that aren't your shield: Because Link's best OOS options are still pretty dangerous. It's only ok to shield a lot in a few matchups (hello, Marth), but usually if a Link player is shielding a lot they are losing.



Everything else is gravy, knowing those things turns you into one of those guys who rarely gets hit and never dies when it does happen.

 

[BRLNK88]

Defensive options that aren't your shield: Because Link's best OOS options are still pretty dangerous. It's only ok to shield a lot in a few matchups (hello, Marth), but usually if a Link player is shielding a lot they are losing.



Everything else is gravy, knowing those things turns you into one of those guys who rarely gets hit and never dies when it does happen.

While I do agree, I think when it comes to the spacies and Sheik, it doesn't really matter if you shield a lot or not, they can still **** you. Falco can camp you harder if you don't shield (pew pew > bombs and boomerang), Fox can just outmaneuver you, Sheik is Sheik.

 

[Goast]

Spacing (including when you can use projectiles and not get smacked for it): Because you can't win if you can't pressure your opponent while staying safe.

Recovery/DI: Because you can't win if you keep getting edgeguarded and losing stocks when you don't need to.

Defensive options that aren't your shield: Because Link's best OOS options are still pretty dangerous. It's only ok to shield a lot in a few matchups (hello, Marth), but usually if a Link player is shielding a lot they are losing.



Everything else is gravy, knowing those things turns you into one of those guys who rarely gets hit and never dies when it does happen.

The third thing you mentioned for me is really important. I should try playing with a little more initiative. Maybe covering more area and zoning. I'm starting to like Shffl Fair much more for this, which I rarely did before

 

[Skler]

While I do agree, I think when it comes to the spacies and Sheik, it doesn't really matter if you shield a lot or not, they can still **** you. Falco can camp you harder if you don't shield (pew pew > bombs and boomerang), Fox can just outmaneuver you, Sheik is Sheik.

If you shield against Fox or Sheik they both have the ability to grab you or punish your roll/spot dodge before you can do anything but roll/spot dodge. Once they touch your shield it is a guessing game where if they win they get free hits, and if you win all you've done is not get hit. Shielding approaches from those two is a losing game (though the alternative can be worse at times).

Jabbing and CCing are severely underestimated against those two. Jabbing shuts down every SH approach Fox has, and CCing allows you to punish every Sheik approach (with Dsmash) that isn't the grab, aerial needles, or dsmash.

Falco you can shield against because he lacks a reliable way to combo you out of throws, and if he messes up a pillar you get a free hit on him. Falco can't land a real kill move on Link out of grabs, so shielding is especially viable at higher percents when you really just don't want to risk trading. That being said, you still shouldn't shield much against Falco, you should either be attempting to powershield or be on a different horizontal plane.

Edit: If you're getting ***** by spacies they are either extremely good, a circle camping Fox, or you are making bad decisions. Link does have an answer to their common approaches and the ability to punish them hard for certain mistakes, it just requires good decision making and possibly some mistakes on their end.

The same goes for Sheik, if you're losing to Sheik you aren't playing it right and/or they are playing extremely well. It's not like they pick Sheik and you automatically lose. Edit 2: Unless you're on FD.

 

[BRLNK88]

Jabbing and CCing are severely underestimated against those two. Jabbing shuts down every SH approach Fox has, and CCing allows you to punish every Sheik approach (with Dsmash) that isn't the grab, aerial needles, or dsmash.

Edit: If you're getting ***** by spacies they are either extremely good, a circle camping Fox, or you are making bad decisions. Link does have an answer to their common approaches and the ability to punish them hard for certain mistakes, it just requires good decision making and possibly some mistakes on their end.

The same goes for Sheik, if you're losing to Sheik you aren't playing it right and/or they are playing extremely well. It's not like they pick Sheik and you automatically lose. Edit 2: Unless you're on FD.

I probably should CC more in those MUs, I think my timing and unpredictability just need work cuz I tend to get read when I try to CC and just get grabbed.
I can beat mediocre spacies and Sheiks with Link, but when facing an opponent who is just more talented than me period, I may do decently in the first couple matches, but then start getting *****.
I definitely know how to exploit what few weaknesses the aforementioned have with Link, but those windows are small against more skilled players, whereas the combination of Link's more severe weaknesses and my inferior skill give them a big edge.
It's not an automatic loss against Fox or Sheik, but its definitely an uphill battle. You have to play nearly flawless. Every time you get a hit/grab, something good HAS to come out of it, whereas they don't necessarily have to get the most out of every opportunity.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

I find bomb OoS, both throwing and jump->drop, pretty safe. Lightsheilding is not that bad of an option either for link since we like getting some range, and sheilding on platforms should actually be good cause of sheild drop nairs/uairs, but thats beyond my ability right now so I havent actually tested it.

 

[Skler]

I probably should CC more in those MUs, I think my timing and unpredictability just need work cuz I tend to get read when I try to CC and just get grabbed.
I can beat mediocre spacies and Sheiks with Link, but when facing an opponent who is just more talented than me period, I may do decently in the first couple matches, but then start getting *****.
I definitely know how to exploit what few weaknesses the aforementioned have with Link, but those windows are small against more skilled players, whereas the combination of Link's more severe weaknesses and my inferior skill give them a big edge.
It's not an automatic loss against Fox or Sheik, but its definitely an uphill battle. You have to play nearly flawless. Every time you get a hit/grab, something good HAS to come out of it, whereas they don't necessarily have to get the most out of every opportunity.

There's no shame in losing to good players, that might not be just the MU's fault in that case. I know when I lose to a good spacy or Sheik it isn't Link's fault, they just outplayed me.

They do have moves that work well against Link, but Link does have answers. If Sheik/Fox just start running up to grab you toss out a jab and immediately start holding down, if the jab connects you can continue your jabs (usually the triple jab), if it misses you can be ready to CC their attack, if they shield it you can go into the rapid jab to force them away.

If Sheik is approaching with aerials you need to get under a platform and spam her or try to get underneath her when she jumps so you can uair spam. Same goes for Fox when he starts full jumping.

When you get a bomb or boomerang you have to force your opponent to make a mistake with the threat they create. It's definitely an uphill battle, but it's entirely winnable. Most things are an uphill battle for Link, you should be used to it!

I can't think of a situation that Link absolutely can't handle except a smart circle camping Fox on DL 64.


@Lootic: Shield dropping is a very good skill for Link to have.

Bomb OOS is decent, but all your opponent needs to do to avoid it is be behind you while they pressure your shield. If I have a bomb and am shielding I'll usually just wait until it's about to explode and roll if they move to avoid the explosion (if they don't I'll just wait in shield and grab them) so it covers me from tech chases.

 

[Problem2]

What is this positive connotation towards Link? This is foreign to me!

 

[BRLNK88]

When you get a bomb or boomerang you have to force your opponent to make a mistake with the threat they create. It's definitely an uphill battle, but it's entirely winnable. Most things are an uphill battle for Link, you should be used to it!

Nah, I did main Link for a long time, I got sick of everything being an uphill battle (for the wrong reasons), so I switched to Marth, who has even or advantageous MUs against all "common tournament characters" except Sheik.
I'd much rather let skill and experience determine a match rather than character disadvantage. Marth has such an easier time ****ing up Falco and Fox than Link does.
Except when it comes down to it, I'd much rather play Link than Marth... so off I went to PM.
I might pick up Melee SD Remix.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

With a smash throw(not using c-stick, as that would result in a roll, but instead control stick + A) you can throw a bomb in any direction OoS, and if you light sheild you will more often get into the range where the blast of the bomb doesnt catch us and we get to proceed with a fair, dair, dash attack etc.

Started to experiment with sheild drop nairs and got it off two times with good timing now(after spamming it like a mad man lol), it doesnt flow into the game but I still got some momentum from it, I really like it.

 

[Skler]

Nah, I did main Link for a long time, I got sick of everything being an uphill battle (for the wrong reasons), so I switched to Marth, who has even or advantageous MUs against all "common tournament characters" except Sheik.
I'd much rather let skill and experience determine a match rather than character disadvantage. Marth has such an easier time ****ing up Falco and Fox than Link does.
Except when it comes down to it, I'd much rather play Link than Marth... so off I went to PM.
I might pick up Melee SD Remix.

Skill and experience determine who wins, even if you play Link. The only reason I lose matches is because my skill and experience are not always enough to make me win. I also SD a lot. Rather than look for excuses, it's best to ask what you could have done better. Maybe picking Link was a mistake by you, but I'm sure other mistakes were made as well. There's no shame in picking a different character, but there's a problem with blaming losses on your character.

I've been asked plenty of times why I play Link, and it isn't because I want to be a low tier main; it's because I do better when I play Link.


That, and he has a bitchin' hat.

 

[Skler]

With a smash throw(not using c-stick, as that would result in a roll, but instead control stick + A) you can throw a bomb in any direction OoS, and if you light sheild you will more often get into the range where the blast of the bomb doesnt catch us and we get to proceed with a fair, dair, dash attack etc.

Started to experiment with sheild drop nairs and got it off two times with good timing now(after spamming it like a mad man lol), it doesnt flow into the game but I still got some momentum from it, I really like it.

Double post because this is awesome. I will now be reverse-throwing bombs out of shield ALL THE TIME.

If I could shield drop more consistently I'd love to incorporate shield dropped nairs into my game. If you do it really well you can probably stay on the platform if your nair connects immediately.

Can anybody pressure shields well as Link by doing dropthrough nair -> canceled by nair hitting shield -> dropthrough nair -> canceled by nair hitting shield, forever? That'd be a cool trick for destroying people on platforms. I think Link might actually have a frame advantage from doing that.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

If I could shield drop more consistently I'd love to incorporate shield dropped nairs into my game. If you do it really well you can probably stay on the platform if your nair connects immediately.

Can anybody pressure shields well as Link by doing dropthrough nair -> canceled by nair hitting shield -> dropthrough nair -> canceled by nair hitting shield, forever? That'd be a cool trick for destroying people on platforms. I think Link might actually have a frame advantage from doing that.

How many frames are there from drop until we can do an aerial, is it 2, maybe?
If so it should be 2+4+7 = 13 frames, the sheild stun is 11 frames, that means, yes they can get out, but even fox will get smacked in the face by doing so. The uair is not that bad either, 22 frames for doing the move and 16 frames hit stun.

But damn its hard to execute. Can sheild drop about half of the time, but it requires so much focus that its not really ready for tournament play. Hopefully I might get it there before next summer, .

 

[BRLNK88]

Skill and experience determine who wins, even if you play Link. The only reason I lose matches is because my skill and experience are not always enough to make me win. I also SD a lot. Rather than look for excuses, it's best to ask what you could have done better. Maybe picking Link was a mistake by you, but I'm sure other mistakes were made as well. There's no shame in picking a different character, but there's a problem with blaming losses on your character.

I've been asked plenty of times why I play Link, and it isn't because I want to be a low tier main; it's because I do better when I play Link.


That, and he has a bitchin' hat.

Going by that, I do MUCH better when I play PM Link. He's faster, he combos better (dat boomerang), but he controls just as fluidly as Melee Link. Bottom line, I trust the smash community more than I do Sakurai. His primary motive is to get everyone to play his game, with little regard for what the competitive community wants. The PM devs might take longer, but they at least get it right.
But I still stand by my original statement. Blaming losses on your character is OK ONLY if you don't exclusively assign the blame to it. You're naturally going to make mistakes in a match, but those mistakes tend to be more punishable for Link compared to Marth.
Tier lists wouldn't exist if there was never reason to assign blame to a character.


I still hate the Fox/Marth MU, but its roughly even. I have no reason to blame Marth when I lose cuz I know for a fact he's good enough to go even with Fox.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Blaming a loss on anything but the fact that you played worse than your opponent is a waste of energy and time. Accept it, become better and win the next time.

 

[BRLNK88]

Blaming a loss on anything but the fact that you played worse than your opponent is a waste of energy and time. Accept it, become better and win the next time.

Yeah, I'm not listening to you.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Yeah, I'm not listening to you.

Sure why not, Im not emitting any sound anyways, ;P. More seriously though I see no reason to start a unproductive flame war so maybe we should just let go of the topic.

 

[Skler]

Going by that, I do MUCH better when I play PM Link. He's faster, he combos better (dat boomerang), but he controls just as fluidly as Melee Link. Bottom line, I trust the smash community more than I do Sakurai. His primary motive is to get everyone to play his game, with little regard for what the competitive community wants. The PM devs might take longer, but they at least get it right.
But I still stand by my original statement. Blaming losses on your character is OK ONLY if you don't exclusively assign the blame to it. You're naturally going to make mistakes in a match, but those mistakes tend to be more punishable for Link compared to Marth.
Tier lists wouldn't exist if there was never reason to assign blame to a character.


I still hate the Fox/Marth MU, but its roughly even. I have no reason to blame Marth when I lose cuz I know for a fact he's good enough to go even with Fox.

If you pick a character you aren't confident with for a certain matchup the fault is still your own. Nobody but yourself made you pick Link, and blaming a loss on your character is just an effort to preserve your own ego. If I lose as Link I might think "I should have counter picked," not "Link was part of the reason I lost."

At the start of the game you get to pick a character, that is when the game starts. Your character is just a tool you use to beat your opponent, so picking a tool you aren't confident with is still your own fault. Picking a tool that isn't effective against your opponent's tool is your own fault as well.

It'd be nice if the game was more balanced, but I'm not going to blame my hammer just because a shelf fell off the wall. That was my own fault.

Nobody is saying Link is good, but to blame loses on anything but yourself (and your opponent) is nothing but a wounded ego trying to protect itself. Switching characters is a viable way to improve, but there's a reason the community uses the phrase "no Johns." It's because your loss is your own fault, you always could have played better and nobody wants to hear excuses.

That being said, I suck at everyone but Link for some reason. Hell, if it wasn't for Link I'd be terrible even worse at this game.

 

[BRLNK88]

Well, that's basically why I've quit Melee competitively and been practicing PM.
I REALLY would rather not have to switch characters just to improve my chances of winning, I want a balanced game.
And yes, its entirely on you to pick your character, but who's fault is it but the character itself that its bad?
You can blame the programmers for making the character bad but that's fruitless. You're not in control of how good your character is, but you can't help it if its your best character.

 

[KirbyKaze]

This character is sword and boots

Not just boots

Mind = blown

 

[Bigglestheman]

This character is sword and boots

Not just boots

Mind = blown

Did you ask Jeff?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Nah I figured that out myself

And now it's like there's a whole new dimension to this character I never saw before

It's crazy

It also still loses to aerial-shine-WD-aerial-shine-grab-aerial-shine-shine-aerial-grab-dash-aerial-shine spam by Fox but it's still cool as hell

 

[Bigglestheman]

What about his hat? It's a very fancy hat

 

[KirbyKaze]

I wish his hat was a hitbox

 

[Wake]

There isn't enough negativity in this thread right now.

Oh yeah. So MN has a Link main now. We're so weird, David.

 

[Bigglestheman]

I wish his hat was a hitbox

They way his hat violently moves on Corneria would make his hat unstoppable! Now we just have to make it a legal stage!

There isn't enough negativity in this thread right now.

:fdm:

Oh yeah. So MN has a Link main now. We're so weird, David.

Better be named after the great voice actor David Hayter.

 

[Wake]

Corneria being legal... LOL. Biggles, I can't wait until you come to your first tourney/smash fest. YOU'LL PAY FOR SAYING THAT!

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh right Midwest

Corneria legal is an actual concern / threat

Oh well still better than Pokefloats

 

[Bigglestheman]

Oh right Midwest

Corneria legal is an actual concern / threat

Oh well still better than Pokefloats

I'd rather have Mushroom Kingdom II become a legal singles stage. I love that stage.

:mkII: 2013!

 

[KirbyKaze]

As a Sheik main, I'm okay with a 4-ledge level

 

[Bigglestheman]

As a Sheik main, I'm okay with a 4-ledge level

If I ever play you we must play there I don't even care how much dom happens to me.

At least I have four ledges to hookshot on to.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Uhhh sure I guess

 

[Wake]

I will gladly watch this.

 

[Bigglestheman]

There is a nice crisp one dollar bill for the victor!

Don't worry KK it's backed by the trusty word of the U.S. government and all the gold in Fort Knox.

 

[Skler]

You're not in control of how good your character is, but you can't help it if its your best character.

I'm 100% in control of how good my character is. Nothing is stopping me from picking the best character in the game. It's totally my own fault if I pick a character who is not the best because I like his headgear or suck with everyone else who isn't a space-robot-lady from space.


KK, I'd still rely more on the boots than the sword, though. The sword is remarkably dull, either that or the cast of SSBM isn't evil, so it doesn't destroy them like it's supposed to. It still works on making aerial-shine not work, because you can stab Foxes in the toe with your dull sword. Foxes hate that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I was surprised it didn't work on Sheik

Then I realized Sheik isn't evil

She's fabulous

And that's far more devastating

 

[BRLNK88]

I'm 100% in control of how good my character is. Nothing is stopping me from picking the best character in the game. It's totally my own fault if I pick a character who is not the best because I like his headgear or suck with everyone else who isn't a space-robot-lady from space.

haha, I've tried getting good with spacies on several occasions, they just don't work for me.
Marth does work for me, but Link works better.
Link is my best, but he simply can't compete well at a high level.

 

[Skler]

haha, I've tried getting good with spacies on several occasions, they just don't work for me.
Marth does work for me, but Link works better.
Link is my best, but he simply can't compete well at a high level.

Link is my best as well, and I dunno, high level is subjective I guess. It's not like Link can't even make it into brackets if played exclusively. Hell, I'm pretty sure even young Link has done that.

Edit: Sheik may be fabulous, but Link still has a pierced ear and a fairy. That's pretty darn fabulous. Also, depending on who you talk to, being fabulous is being evil.

 

[Looticforgothispassword]

Are you implying link is gay?