Link Match-up Thread

[Fenrir VII]

unrelated to the Sonic discussion, because I think @ Fortress hit that out of the park...

I think it's incredibly important for Link to avoid getting grabbed in this game. Ergo, I think it's incredibly important to learn to not hold shield at stupid times, and instead use an effective jab wall (play like Melee Peach) to keep hitboxes up to cover your front. Shield can be used mainly as a landing aerial punisher (in combination with upB), but you really have to be wary with it.

I don't think matchups like Mario are bad matchups, even with the CG, because Link has effective anti-grab options... so anytime somebody comes in here talking about a grab combo... that's how I think.

Anyways just my $.02

 

[Player -0]

Sonic has the smallest grab range?

I thought that was like, Ganon.

 

[Fortress]

Sonic has the smallest grab range?

I thought that was like, Ganon.

Believe-it-or-not, Sonic's is shorter.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Peach has a CG on Link, am I correct? Either that or I was DI'ing horribly against a friend's Peach off Dthrows.

What does anybody know about the Peach matchup, on that note?

 

[NickRiddle]

Run and throw things, watch out for nair because it's fast, shoot arrows at her recovery.

 

[Radical Larry]

Run and throw things, watch out for nair because it's fast, shoot arrows at her recovery.

How about using DACUS when she floats right above you? I mean, certainly with Link's sword range, it'd be a viable tactic against Peach or Mewtwo, at the least.

 

[NickRiddle]

You can SDI u-smash so I will never tell somebody to do it.
Also, if they have a move out already, they can just fall down and probably hit us during the u-smash startup.
And, no, it's not really viable vs. M2.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@NickRiddle

What matchups do you play Bowser in vs Link -- or is it more stage dependent? What's your heuristic?

I think I'm switching back to these characters, my first loves - that appear to cover all each others' bad matchups splendidly.

 

[NickRiddle]

Bowser is usually a stage CP character. Somebody takes me somewhere small, Bowser is amazing.
However, I also go Bowser for Spacies, and M2 depending on how I'm doing on reads that day.
Thinking about going Bowser for Kirby if I ever play Chu again, or maybe Pit if I play ZeRo again.
Everybody else is pretty much Link.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I feel like nearly every Link player has at least a fairly strong secondary... and I feel like we bring out the 2nds mainly when we don't feel comfortable in the matchup with Link... in counterpicking, etc.

I recently played KOKingpin. First match, I beat his DK with Link. Second match, he beat me with DDD (close) on FD. I didn't like how that match went, so I went Fox on Yoshi's Story.
Another example, I win a match with Link on Smashville or whatever. Somebody counterpicks me with WarioWare. Out comes Fox/Roy. It's not that I think Link does poorly on those stages or matchups... just think other chars have a more definite advantage. That kind of thing.

I've seen Nick do similar things with Bowser, and Hylian with Lucario mainly.

Sometimes, you just need to approach a problem from another angle.

 

[NickRiddle]

When it's a MU I don't mind with either character, like Mario or M2, I switch it up to force the opponent to change playstyles. Generally, people can't automatically switch how they were just playing, which gives me an edge for the first stock or so.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Based on y'all's knowledges of matchups, I'd like to know what's the best secondary between these three:

DK, Wolf, and Mewtwo.

I've been working on these three separately lately and have been considering picking up one of them as a secondary. Thoughts anyone?

 

[NickRiddle]

Mewtwo.
Because woop.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Picking a secondary is always a choice made somewhere between "who is the best character that effectively counters my counters" and "who am I most comfortable with". I generally favor the latter approach, but the former would probably say Mewtwo > Wolf > DK as secondaries for Link.

 

[Heero Yuy]

^ My thoughts exactly. We'll see.

I've been posting on here a lot but today I faced my first ROB and...I didn't necessarily get rekt but I got read hard later on. Since I didn't know what I was doing, I won game 1 through projectile spamming. Games 2 and 3 were different as he was reading so many of my projectile habits plus was finding ways to shut them down, especially with the laser. The gyro was also annoying cuz it has an everlasting hitbox and it was hard to wavedash over it to pick it up. Lastly I was getting grabbed a lot.

What do y'all know about fighting ROB? I referred to the description on the first page, but specifically I wanna know the neutral for Link, seeing as though ROB also has a terrific neutral. Anything else would be helpful.

 

[Frost | Odds]

What % does the cg vs lucas work - and what's the best followup?

 

[NickRiddle]

0-between 30 and 50.
Then you get nair > stuff, u-tilt > stuff, or bair > stuff.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

Run and throw things, watch out for nair because it's fast, shoot arrows at her recovery.

There's a certain Gainesville Roy player (I know his name, but not his tag) that I have heard you have played against.

I'd like to assume you do well against him.

Roy can CC all of Link's projectiles/ safe moves and one touch equals a LOT of % or a lost stock.

How do you play around Roy's CC?

Grabbing isn't necessarily safe, considering the nature of Link's grab.

 

[NickRiddle]

I've played Ryo before, and I am 3-0 with him in sets.
Don't throw projectiles in his face.
Whenever you get him off-stage, make sure he takes damage or dies from it.
I'll write something detailed later, I need to sleep.

 

[Shin_Mazinkaiser]

I've played Ryo before, and I am 3-0 with him in sets.
Don't throw projectiles in his face.
Whenever you get him off-stage, make sure he takes damage or dies from it.
I'll write something detailed later, I need to sleep.

Thank you.

He made me realize that the Roy matchup is one I need to put extensive time in to.

 

[Player -0]

Whenever you get him off-stage, make sure he takes damage or dies from it.

Aka Yolo nair and it works.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Don't throw projectiles in his face.

I think this is also true for Link against other power-based characters like Charizard, DK, Ganon, and Bowser.

 

[Player -0]

Isn't it true for most characters....?

 

[EmptySky00]

unrelated to the Sonic discussion, because I think @ Fortress hit that out of the park...

I think it's incredibly important for Link to avoid getting grabbed in this game. Ergo, I think it's incredibly important to learn to not hold shield at stupid times, and instead use an effective jab wall (play like Melee Peach) to keep hitboxes up to cover your front. Shield can be used mainly as a landing aerial punisher (in combination with upB), but you really have to be wary with it.

I don't think matchups like Mario are bad matchups, even with the CG, because Link has effective anti-grab options... so anytime somebody comes in here talking about a grab combo... that's how I think.

Anyways just my $.02

But Mario has ways to set up grabs. I was playing a friend's Mario and was walling him to the point of him getting pissed off and yelling at me and he still got grab set ups that I had no super effective means to avoid. Mainly because Mario's moves never seem to lose and I have to respect them and pill grabs are a nuisance.

 

[Heero Yuy]

Yesterday I played my friend, a great Peach. Turns out Nick was partially right when he said "throw things and run away", however good Peachs are just that good at slingshotting into Link's range. I'll post notes later.

Additionally, I played a Pika today and lost a Bo5. I've beaten him before but he's gotten better since then. Feels a lot like the Marth-Pika matchup, but Link has projectiles AND is much slower than Marth.

I'll give huge essays on both these matchups later in the week.

 

[Fenrir VII]

But Mario has ways to set up grabs. I was playing a friend's Mario and was walling him to the point of him getting pissed off and yelling at me and he still got grab set ups that I had no super effective means to avoid. Mainly because Mario's moves never seem to lose and I have to respect them and pill grabs are a nuisance.

Well yeah, I can say "lol don't get grabbed" all day long, but it's nearly impossible to avoid for an entire match. But what I'm saying is.. If you get grabbed with any consistency by a Mario or another character with roughly his speed/range, it's because of things you are doing and mistakes you are making.

Mario is a great character, and is a nightmare to much of the cast, but against Link, he's just outclassed, imo. Link has reliable tools to deal with everything he has, space him out constantly, and avoid grabs. Link is also among the best chars at dealing with fireballs (everything beats them in trades, and you can react-punish the throw with a rang, zair, etc etc).
Now you're not going to play perfectly, but I do think Link players shouldn't be scared of a chain grab, and should reliably win the match. Just go with big stages.

 

[EmptySky00]

Well yeah, I can say "lol don't get grabbed" all day long, but it's nearly impossible to avoid for an entire match. But what I'm saying is.. If you get grabbed with any consistency by a Mario or another character with roughly his speed/range, it's because of things you are doing and mistakes you are making.

Mario is a great character, and is a nightmare to much of the cast, but against Link, he's just outclassed, imo. Link has reliable tools to deal with everything he has, space him out constantly, and avoid grabs. Link is also among the best chars at dealing with fireballs (everything beats them in trades, and you can react-punish the throw with a rang, zair, etc etc).
Now you're not going to play perfectly, but I do think Link players shouldn't be scared of a chain grab, and should reliably win the match. Just go with big stages.

Fair enough. I think I probably jumped to conclusions about it being a disadvantageous match up and rode a bandwagon sort of. I can beat the Mario players in my group pretty effectively. But I always attributed that to being a better player than them /notego. But the players who aren't nearly as good as me can sometimes get pretty damn close or win occasionally in that MU. So I figured it was the MU being bad.

So one thing I was doing last time is when my opponent shot out double pills, I was able to time it and throw a bomb through the small gap and hit him in the face pretty consistently. It was both hilarious and effective. Also, I made it a point to try and set up an up tilt juggle at low percents because I noticed he couldn't do anything and it got him into combo percents and it led into an up air. Also if you space it correctly and hit his shield with the back swing, you can swing again and again and he's basically forced to back off (I got this from Umbreon too =_=) and if he doesn't know any better he'll probably try to punish and just get hit and juggled.

The main things that irk me about the MU are his recovery being really really hard/impossible to gimp and his pills being such a dense projectile (cancels out my projectiles and even clanks with my smash attacks which is something that pisses me off as Marth). But there are ways to approach it to deal with that problem.

 

[Jash098]

I'm sure it might be in this thread somewhere, but how do you guys deal with a Samus? It's not the projectiles I have problems with, it's setting something up to kill her with.

 

[Wolf_]

Bowser is usually a stage CP character. Somebody takes me somewhere small, Bowser is amazing.
However, I also go Bowser for Spacies, and M2 depending on how I'm doing on reads that day.
Thinking about going Bowser for Kirby if I ever play Chu again, or maybe Pit if I play ZeRo again.
Everybody else is pretty much Link.

You played Chu? How did that go? I was considering using Ganondorf haha, I like your tactic of Bowser for small stage counterpicks, do you think Ganon is a good idea as a substitute for Bowser on small stages? Cause I don't know how to play Bowser

EDIT: Also considering the counterpicks overall, who do you think of these are a good secondary to cover Link's bad options and stages?

Fox, Zelda, Ganondorf, Falco, Marth

I'm pretty good with all of those

 

[EmptySky00]

I was told that Marth doesn't cover Link very well in terms of a secondary.

 

[NickRiddle]

Chu bodied me. duck2stronk

 

[Fenrir VII]

so @ NickRiddle how do you actually feel about the Kirby matchup now? I think we all kind of slept on it as easy, but Chu's got that jank.

I'm trying to get a feel for Link's bad matchups (because I really don't think there are too many), and I've got the following so far (note that I don't know that any of these is "bad"... these are just the most likely, imo):

-CF (really weaves through the projectiles, and can hitconfirm seemingly anything into an almost death combo)
-Sheik (good combos and edgeguarding, and is able to apply pressure without committing too hard)
-Marth (not THAT bad... just like a 45-55 imo)
-Roy (about the same as Marth... worse edgeguarding but better kill combos)
-Fox/Falco (look I don't think these are bad matchups in the least, but most people put them here, so there you go)
-MK (more anecdotal evidence than theory here)

The possibles:
Sonic
Pit
M2
Mario (I don't agree with this)
ZSS (heard both sides of this one)
Diddy (just think it's really even)

 

[NickRiddle]

Kirby's... hard actually.
Throwing stuff is good, but ducking really ruins the MU for us.

CF still doesn't seem hard. Worse pressure than spacies, can't force an approach, gets comboed like a spacie, and then gets edgeguarded for free.
Sheik is hard if you aren't mobile. Playing @Sensei Seibrik has taught me to move a LOT more than normal. I tagged him in case he wants to expand on this, but a mobile Link is actually good at avoiding Sheik things.
Marth is weird. I'm convinced it shouldn't be bad, but some of Marth's things are SO MUCH BETTER in PM that I can't exactly say one way or the other.
Roy is free as ****. He gets comboed/edgeguarded WAY too easily. Mind you, I haven't played Sethlon, but I really cannot see Roy having anything spectacular on us.
Spacies... yeah, they're hard because they're spacies. It goes to show how good they are vs. Link when we 0-80 them on almost any hit.
MK... I'm actually finding the MU easier and easier as I get better. I can reliably CG him now, and it works until at least 30% even with platforms. He can weave in and out of projectiles VERY easily due to his speed, but grounded projectiles are still hard for him to deal with.

Sonic is fast. His tools aren't great, but I believe he is legitimately too fast for Link to deal with.
Pit... oh boy. When I played ZeRo we exchanged about the same amount of neutral hits, but Pit gets a LOT more off of anything than Link does. That + edgeguarding is pretty bad. If I had more exp, I'd probably way Link 45:55 Pit, but as of now it feels like Link 35:65 Pit
M2 is a guessing game. If you can predict teleports in, it's not that bad. Link's projectiles are surprisingly good in this MU as well... Just be aware that sometimes you are going to get hit and die because it's M2.
Mario is weird. His tools against Link are amazing, most of his moves lead into kill moves, CG > f-smash, edgeguards are decent. Link's sword makes the MU manageable though. We can keep him out really hard, and we kill better off of stray hits.
ZSS is ****ing bad for Link. Really ****ing bad. Dair on shield is punishable by a pretty much perfect uair, but if you miss you eat tons of damage. Link is perfect combo weight for ZSS's nair and dair. She has trouble killing Link, but Link has such a hard time getting any hits at all. Probably our worst MU TBQH.
0 Diddy exp. so no input on that.

Other bad MUs? I now feel Samus isn't that bad, maybe slight advantage for her.
Wolf is probably bad for the same reasons Fox/Falco are, but again I have 0 MU exp.

That's my brief input on all of those MUs.
Can't see anything else really being bad.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I can agree with that. I should probably back up and say that the chars I listed may not be negative matchups, but have the potential to be.

A few points for clarity of my ideas... Link is a very combo-vulnerable character, so nearly every char has some sort of ridiculous followups against him. The good thing is he usually gives that back, so you're mostly even with follow-ups and damage output.
So I don't base a "bad matchup" on the ability for followups alone. It all depends on which chars can get thru Link's zoning and reliably land their followups. This is why I shrug about the Mario matchup... Yes he has great followups, but his ability to land the starters should be very hard against link, imo.

A few comments on @ NickRiddle s list.

On paper, the CF matchup doesn't seem terrible. I definitely slept on the matchup before I played fatality recently in friendlies. I then got scared and went mostly Fox in the bracket. This could be a mix of lack of matchup knowledge and bad DI, but all projectiles were incredibly unsafe, and nearly everything he landed led to a grab, which was very very bad.
Then for edgeguarding, Falcon has some very neat footstool combos that put you in really bad position. I could see this being even, but it's definitely scary.

I think Link beats all spacies and STOMPS wolf. I also agree that link wins the MK match.

Sheik and Marth kind of do the same stuff to link. I consider them both evenish.

Sonic and Pit, I have no complaints about what you wrote.

Tbh I don't understand the ZSS thing. She's mobile, but imo not as good at applying pressure as the others on the list. She also seems more laterally focused for approaches, which should lose to zoning.. I have no matchup exp on this, so I am not arguing... Just questioning. I've seen you and Hylian talk about her, but then I see Lazarond take matches from Oro... That kind of thing makes it confusing for me. Can you elaborate? (also I kinda don't think link should shield most of the time)

Finally Kirby... He's an amazing char, but I still think link should win it. I don't see how he gets inside the danger zone, even with the crouch... It definitely makes you play differently, though. (then again, Kirby has been beating Roy the tether ball champion too, so I don't understand life)

Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Wolf_]

Chu bodied me. duck2stronk

I thought it would be an easy matchup for Link haha, I took him to game 3, but why I chose Dracula's Castle, I'll never know, small stages are better I think cause I can't edgeguard Kirby for ****

Also, I feel that spacies win the neutral but Link's punish game on them is so strong that it makes it close to even, that being said I still think it's in the spacie's favor overall. I still love fighting spacie's though, Darc said he wants to try Fox and Falcon on my Link next time, can't wait

 

[NickRiddle]

A few comments on @ NickRiddle s list.

Tbh I don't understand the ZSS thing. She's mobile, but imo not as good at applying pressure as the others on the list. She also seems more laterally focused for approaches, which should lose to zoning.. I have no matchup exp on this, so I am not arguing... Just questioning. I've seen you and Hylian talk about her, but then I see Lazarond take matches from Oro... That kind of thing makes it confusing for me. Can you elaborate? (also I kinda don't think link should shield most of the time)

Finally Kirby... He's an amazing char, but I still think link should win it. I don't see how he gets inside the danger zone, even with the crouch... It definitely makes you play differently, though. (then again, Kirby has been beating Roy the tether ball champion too, so I don't understand life)

Thanks for the feedback.

I feel like ZSS is just too mobile for her damage output, and she doesn't get comboed hard like spacies... plus her recovery is also better.

I feel like Link probably beats Kirby, but I don't have good MU exp in that, and I was so shocked at how much duck changed the MU. I didn't adapt quickly enough.

 

[JesteRace]

I've been taking on a good amount of King Dedede players recently, so I guess I'll try and put forth something on that matchup.

Honestly, it's pretty similar to how the Bowser matchup is described. Avoid stuff like Fountain of Dreams or Battlefield, go for PS2 or FD. Don't let him in, he owns you if he gets in, he has better range, priority, etc. Dedede is surprisingly easy to camp, if you're into that. But seriously, spam projectiles, keep spacing with Zair, wait for good moments to approach, do not get greedy, Dedede punishes hard. His OOS options are much better than yours. But when you do get the opportunity, Link has some great combos on Dedede. Most of my kills were rang>fair or rang>upb. I'd say the matchup is about even, maybe a 55:45 in Dedede's favor because he's better off the stage too. Hopefully this helps someone.

Anyone have good tips on Fox? Really struggling with that one.

 

[Goobgoyle]

Hey guise

Relatively soon, I'll be jumping into my local Smash scene as a Link main, and wanted to ask you all what would be the best suited character for Link as a secondary. The characters I've used thus far are as follows:
Bowser, Ganondorf, Roy and Diddy

To note, I am open to learning a character that is not on this list. Just figured I'd give an idea of what I'm used to playing as

 

[Heero Yuy]

Nick uses Bowser because Bowser's good on smaller stages and better against spacies - both of which pose a problem to Link (but moreso the latter).

Or you can take my approach and remain perfectly faithful to your main.

 

[Goobgoyle]

Probably gonna end up going solo Link for anything competitive. I wasn't able to go to my local tourney, but I played my buddies Cap Falcon and he ripped me to shreds. I was consistently able to zone him early on, but once he adapted he destroyed me. How do you guys deal with that MU? Ooh, and Sonic. Dude is ridiculously fast and I hate it lol