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[Elessar]

Bring back Bomb Fsmash.

How on earth would that affect Link's viability?

 

[Lawz.]

People keep falling out of my Usmash, was it this inconsistent before the patch?

Making Link viable wouldn't take too much. Make jab 1 frame faster and cancel like before but without the death combo. Increase Link's air speed. Make grab as fast as normal grabs because normal grabs like Bowser's already outreach it (). Make normal arrows fire and charge as fast as quick fire arrows but keep the damage and distance. Expand bomb explosions and increase hitstun slightly. Slightly reduce boomerang start up lag. Reduce Link's jump animation by a frame or 2. Bring back Bomb Fsmash.

It can be DI'd out of depending on their position in the hitbox. Its a terribly inconsistent move.

 

[Rizen]

How on earth would that affect Link's viability?

Bomb Fsmash is one of many things needed but I've been in several situations where it would have really helped. MUs with reflectors/absorbers would be more bomb friendly with the threat of being Fsmashed alone. Now reflectors beat every bomb option except Zair, which isn't great.

 

[Zelkam]

I guess while we're talking about ways to make Link viable, I'll throw in my two cents.


Revert the Jab change in patch 1.0.6 and remove the suction affect. We've all talked about this.

Return Melee Spin Attack. The thing about Melee Spin Attack is that it actually had a purpose. The semi-spike meant that it was actually useful for something. Now it basically just a worse version of Fsmash or Ftilt. Spin Attack needs to semi-spike and have consistent knockback throughout the attack. None of this "gentle nudge by the end of the attack" stuff. Oh, and get rid of the stupid mechanic that removes all hitboxes if it gets shielded right away.

Dtilt get's totally revamped. First off, remove the meteor. With the semi-spike on spin attack we won't need it anymore. Next up, lower the knockback even more than it was in the latest patch. Basically I want the KB to be low enough that we could potentially combo out of it. Last but not least, give Dtilt a start up time and IASA that rivals Marth's. Voila, Dtilt just went from being useless to a potential combo starter and shield poker.

Fsmash needs more shield damage and much more shield push. Fully charged double Fsmash should be able to break shields. And could we finally fix the point blank hitbox that launches people the completely wrong direction?

Zair auto cancels upon landing again, and airdodge landing lag doesn't carry over anymore. Give us the ZAC back, too.

Dthrow KB gets reduced enough that we can combo out of it

Fthrow and Bthrow both get KB increases to make them better "get off me" options

Rang keeps the same KB and hit angle going out but it gets the returning hitbox coming back

Hero's Bow - arrows actually fly perfectly straight at full charge and don't disappear until they hit an object/character/blast zone. Uncharged arrows fly as far as Gay's. Make the charge cancel-able by hitting shield. While you're at it, give us the quick draw back too.

...there, I think that covers everything

 

[link7]

Going to a PM tourney. I'll post what I think should be added to Link later.

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

I guess while we're talking about ways to make Link viable, I'll throw in my two cents.


Revert the Jab change in patch 1.0.6 and remove the suction affect. We've all talked about this.

Return Melee Spin Attack. The thing about Melee Spin Attack is that it actually had a purpose. The semi-spike meant that it was actually useful for something. Now it basically just a worse version of Fsmash or Ftilt. Spin Attack needs to semi-spike and have consistent knockback throughout the attack. None of this "gentle nudge by the end of the attack" stuff. Oh, and get rid of the stupid mechanic that removes all hitboxes if it gets shielded right away.

Dtilt get's totally revamped. First off, remove the meteor. With the semi-spike on spin attack we won't need it anymore. Next up, lower the knockback even more than it was in the latest patch. Basically I want the KB to be low enough that we could potentially combo out of it. Last but not least, give Dtilt a start up time and IASA that rivals Marth's. Voila, Dtilt just went from being useless to a potential combo starter and shield poker.

Fsmash needs more shield damage and much more shield push. Fully charged double Fsmash should be able to break shields. And could we finally fix the point blank hitbox that launches people the completely wrong direction?

Zair auto cancels upon landing again, and airdodge landing lag doesn't carry over anymore. Give us the ZAC back, too.

Dthrow KB gets reduced enough that we can combo out of it

Fthrow and Bthrow both get KB increases to make them better "get off me" options

Rang keeps the same KB and hit angle going out but it gets the returning hitbox coming back

Hero's Bow - arrows actually fly perfectly straight at full charge and don't disappear until they hit an object/character/blast zone. Uncharged arrows fly as far as Gay's. Make the charge cancel-able by hitting shield. While you're at it, give us the quick draw back too.

...there, I think that covers everything

Most of this, specifically the bow mechanic. I don't remember the arrows disappearing after what is essentially a few feet in the games.

 

[The Merc]

Holy crap, that's so bad. Don't do that again. Just...no.

right in the feelings........

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Cyner (I think it was Cyner?) had an interesting idea for a new character design for Link. Like having helm splitter for example and having less emphasis on projectiles.

Yeah, basically remove boomerang and arrows, make his bomb pull very fast, grant him a bit more speed in general and then give him helmsplitter to act as a bouncing fish type move, and mortal draw as a counter. Zoning just doesn't seem to be a good thing in Smash.

 

[FierceGaiety]

Just went into training mode against Charizard and he refuses to stop SDing with his Flame Tackle. Over and over again, dozens of times, often before his respawn invincibility is gone. I just stand at the edge and spot dodge when the inevitable happens. What the heck is this AI thinking? Has it been watching Team For Glory matches?

 

[link and ike lover]

Us Link mains should be offended by this: https://youtu.be/Sy3JMKYVzDM

LOL

 

[Zelkam]

Just went into training mode against Charizard and he refuses to stop SDing with his Flame Tackle. Over and over again, dozens of times, often before his respawn invincibility is gone. I just stand at the edge and spot dodge when the inevitable happens. What the heck is this AI thinking? Has it been watching Team For Glory matches?

Smash Bros AI has always been weird. The Melee Jungle Japes Roy SD is still my favorite.

 

[Elessar]

Us Link mains should be offended by this: https://youtu.be/Sy3JMKYVzDM

LOL

Well, time to nerf Link again.

 

[Zelkam]

Well, time to nerf Link again.

What are you talking about? This has nothing to do with Link. Clearly this calls for a nerf on Greninja.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

He shoulda used that infinite that's super easy to use and is inescapable at any percent and has infinite range and hits through blocks so Link could just do it at the begining of the match and win automatically.

Or maybe he shoulda used his stunning projectile and followed up with his super long grab and did some grab combos ending with his ace up special, cause he can do that, right?

 

[8MAN]

Link having a counter would be weird, but I could see it. He could attack from different angles like Greninja.
Hold Up > Helm Splitter
Hold Forward/Backwards (depends which way character is facing)> Rolling
Backslash/Jump Slash
Hold Down: Trip to Ending Blow
Neutral > Normal Slash
Also if his Down B was like Pit's in Brawl, where he would just crouch behind his Hylian Shield to nullify damage would be pretty cool too.
But, bombs are definately the best choice for his Down B, seeing as a large chunk of his metagame revolves around them.

 

[sasook]

Link only needs a bottle and fishing rod.

 

[Zane the pure]

Don't forget to bring your bug catching net!

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ Zane the pure You added me a long time ago because Ganon vs Link MU stuff which unfortunately didn't get to happen. Since I recently told other Ganon mains I would be available to be challenged on the 13th starting around 10 AM or 7PM PST, it just randomly occurred to me to let you know given I'm ending a school semester soon.

And, just to be a bit more in character for my main, POWER WILL REIGN SUPREME.

 

[The Merc]

Us Link mains should be offended by this: https://youtu.be/Sy3JMKYVzDM

LOL

BWHAHAHAHAHAH oh gods that is pretty funny .

Well, time to nerf Link again.

That reminds of a picture I saw once

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Poor Link. I don't think he'll ever be a good character in a Smash game, so it's surprising to see them nerf an integral part of his kit, and then buff... Up B of all things.

 

[Siledh]

Honestly, I want to play a Link that works like he does in his series. If that means being a worse character in Smash, so be it.

Link is a zoner even in Zelda. So many of his tools are ranged in some way and work at distracting, stunning or wounding an enemy at mid to long distance so that he can move in for the kill. Despite his sword, Link is not really a swordsman and relies far more on his items than he does his sword.

And honestly, I think reducing his specials to moves taken from one game does a disservice to Link. His specials should come from a range of games, not just one of them.

But that's just me. Don't expect people to agree.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Seriously guys, you are way too serious. REALEASE THE GROOSE'S GROOVY MOVES !

(pls no ban )

On a more related note, why do you consider Link to be a bad (?) character ? I mean, he isn't at Sheik level, but he still has some pretty good kill options at close range. And some b******t powerful customs (I see you Power Bow...).
Just try switching your playstyle a bit.
(I'm no Link main through, so just take it as it is and see what you do with it)

...And if Link was closer to his games, would that mean that he would be able to change the seasons, slow down the time and walk around with a Chomp while shooting Mystery Seeds all over the place at the same time ?

 

[Zelkam]

Honestly, I want to play a Link that works like he does in his series. If that means being a worse character in Smash, so be it.

Link is a zoner even in Zelda. So many of his tools are ranged in some way and work at distracting, stunning or wounding an enemy at mid to long distance so that he can move in for the kill. Despite his sword, Link is not really a swordsman and relies far more on his items than he does his sword.

And honestly, I think reducing his specials to moves taken from one game does a disservice to Link. His specials should come from a range of games, not just one of them.

But that's just me. Don't expect people to agree.

Have you played TP or SS?

 

[Elessar]

Thing is that item use and projectiles, regardless of swordsmanship skills, have always been and will always be an integral part of LoZ gameplay. The problem isn't that Link has 3 projectiles but rather that he isn't balanced correctly. They can argue that because he can spam his sword doesn't have to be so powerful, but what good is all the spam if you can't land a killing blow? Why is Link so slow and has such end lag in all of his moves when you have other spammy chars that have virtually no end lag (looking at you pikachu)? The gameplay concept behind Link is solid enough to make for a good tourney viable char as long as they balance it right. However, Sakurai has proven over and over that he has no idea what "right" is when it comes to Link, because clearly projectiles are OP in a game with no shield stun and no shield damage/poking capabilities.

 

[ShinnyMetal]

Thing use, item use and projectiles, regardless of swordsmanship skills, have always been and will always be an integral part of LoZ gameplay. The problem isn't that Link has 3 projectiles but rather that he isn't balanced correctly. They can argue that because he can spam his sword doesn't have to be so powerful, but what good is all the spam if you can't land a killing blow? Why is Link so slow and has such end lag in all of his moves when you have other spammy chars that have virtually no end lag (looking at you pikachu)? The gameplay concept behind Link is solid enough to make for a good tourney viable char as long as they balance it right. However, Sakurai has proven over and over that he has no idea what "right" is when it comes to Link, because clearly projectiles are OP in a game with no shield stun and no shield damage/poking capabilities.

All the truth. What good is links projectiles when sheik can hinder your projectile game with a damn needle and wreck you in cqc

 

[A_Phoenix_Down]

Zelda Tier?

Also, here was that image I was talking about:

Link was probably about 9-10 inches tall and Ganon was about a foot tall. I wanted them so bad but there's no way I could justify 200 bucks for them. Maybe some day

#nerdgasm

Link has always had an emphasis on using equipment.... when fighting massive creatures that would simply kill him if he just ran up to them blindly. It's like that trailer for Zelda Wii U. He's on his horse being chased by a massive, fast moving spider-creature shooting laser beams. Using a sword to get up close just isn't physically possible in a situation like that so he uses his equipment. He uses his equipment when it's needed to get the upper-hand against monsters 10x his size. Kinda makes sense to me.

However, Link IS a swordsman at his core. Look at the picture above (that I quoted) for instance. Do you see him holding his bow and arrow? Or even a bomb for that matter? Nope. Is his boomerang the Evil's Bane? Nope. His sword is. The series has always tried to emphasize the fact that Link is a swordsman at heart. So I do think that Link has been represented very well in Smash, showing off the best equipment he has always had access to. But it continues to fail to represent his qualities as a true swordsman.

Luckily, Hyrule Warriors shows him off pretty well at least. So having said that, I love Link's design in Smash. It's extremely fitting. If i were to tweak him, I would probably keep the projectiles the way they are, and show a lot more love to his CQC.

 

[link and ike lover]

Poor Link. I don't think he'll ever be a good character in a Smash game, so it's surprising to see them nerf an integral part of his kit, and then buff... Up B of all things.

Us link mains will still hope for him to be good. He was very good in patch 1.06 but after thay everything went downhill.
What if Link even got something like tho Ho Hah combo?

 

[Siledh]

Have you played TP or SS?

I've played them all with the exception of the CD-i games.

SS puts greater emphasis on the sword than before due to the controls, but it is still all about his items. Bombs, whip, beetle, clawshots, slingshot, gust bellows. All ranged items in some way.

Not saying his sword isn't important. Of course it is, but hell you can beat Ganondorf with a fishing rod or a bottle and Ganon with a net.

But people are suggesting we remove his ranged specials to replace them with Hidden Skills from TP. I'm just saying that that's not Link and it would do a disservice to him to rely on specials coming from one game alone. Although fatal blow exists since at least WW, but it would basically be a Dair.

And pretty much what Elessar said.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

I've played them all with the exception of the CD-i games.

SS puts greater emphasis on the sword than before due to the controls, but it is still all about his items. Bombs, whip, beetle, clawshots, slingshot, gust bellows. All ranged items in some way.

Not saying his sword isn't important. Of course it is, but hell you can beat Ganondorf with a fishing rod or a bottle and Ganon with a net.

But people are suggesting we remove his ranged specials to replace them with Hidden Skills from TP. I'm just saying that that's not Link and it would do a disservice to him to rely on specials coming from one game alone. Although fatal blow exists since at least WW, but it would basically be a Dair.

And pretty much what Elessar said.

The main reason to remove his ranged specials is that Sakurai can't into projectile zoning. Note that many characters with just a single projectile easily outcamp link. Shiek and Yoshi being the examples off the top of my head. What seems to be the toast of the town is characters with a sudden gap closer like Sonic, Shiek, and Diddy. Counters in general are just really good in smash4. Make Link into a character that Sakurai knows how to tune and maybe one day he won't be absolutely ****ing terrible.

 

[DJTHED]

Make Link into a character that Sakurai knows how to tune and maybe one day he won't be absolutely ****ing terrible.

Well I don't see Sakurai changing Link's core design in the first place. As long as Sakurai is still involved in the making of future Smash games, Link will not be getting any major changes to his moveset.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Well I don't see Sakurai changing Link's core design in the first place. As long as Sakurai is still involved in the making of future Smash games, Link will not be getting any major changes to his moveset.

Of course not, but maybe the Project M guys will have mercy on our souls and make Project M WiiU edition.

 

[Elessar]

Note that many characters with just a single projectile easily outcamp link.

Sadly too true. Other examples from this game: Mario, Olimar, Luigi, Falco, ROB, Pikachu, Greninja. Heck, even in Brawl the whole meta against Falco was "be at zair length because he outcamp and outspams you, and he rekts in cqc.

While the core concept of Link is amazing and fine, until Smash is developed by someone who has more than a one dimensional understanding of game balancing, Link will remain baddish.

Note that in every smash, each character has been defined by their game style. Rush down aggro chars tend to be top, aggro but not rush down chars with some projectiles tended to be mid, spamming chars tended to be low. While there have been exceptions (such as Gay and Captain Falcon in Brawl) that has been due to Sakurai using Brawl to get back at the melee scene.

 

[Xuan Wu]

Us link mains will still hope for him to be good. He was very good in patch 1.06 but after thay everything went downhill.
What if Link even got something like tho Ho Hah combo?

Guaranteed throw combos? If Link's throws behaved similarly to characters like Ike's, his opponents would definitely have to respect him more. However, having throw combos without a good enough grab game to complement them would be meaningless. Even if Link did have a good throw game, he is still going to be held back as long as he has a tether grab. But then again, that didn't stop ZSS from using her throw combos.

Anyways, how would you guys rank each iteration of Link competitively from best to worst? ^-^

 

[Zane the pure]

Project M
Melee
Smash4
64
Brawl

Melee and Smash 4 Link would've been about even before the patch...
I'd prefer Link to only use the Hookshot for Z-air/tether, a regular grab would be a godsend just so he could fight of people who run up and shield without needing to retreat ,and/or force himself into a bad postition.

 

[Elessar]

Guaranteed throw combos? If Link's throws behaved similarly to characters like Ike's, his opponents would definitely have to respect him more. However, having throw combos without a good enough grab game to complement them would be meaningless. Even if Link did have a good throw game, he is still going to be held back as long as he has a tether grab. But then again, that didn't stop ZSS from using her throw combos.

Anyways, how would you guys rank each iteration of Link competitively from best to worst? ^-^

The difference between Link's and ZSS's tether grab is start up lag and character speed. ZSS can rush you down and put the grab out before you can react. You can practically Dodge Link's grab by reaction. Also, ZSS can stun you then grab; we have to wait for a big opening and then grab. So essentially we use it for a punish rather than a setup.

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

Guaranteed throw combos? If Link's throws behaved similarly to characters like Ike's, his opponents would definitely have to respect him more. However, having throw combos without a good enough grab game to complement them would be meaningless. Even if Link did have a good throw game, he is still going to be held back as long as he has a tether grab. But then again, that didn't stop ZSS from using her throw combos.

Anyways, how would you guys rank each iteration of Link competitively from best to worst? ^-^

Sort of like your argument: what is the point of good grab follow ups without a good grab. What would be the point of a bad grab with good follow ups? To add insult to injury our grab is both: a bad, punishable and predictable grab AND with no follow ups. It makes it pretty much useless. ZZS gets a decent bit off of her grab even with the tether.

 

[Rizen]

Make Link into a character that Sakurai knows how to tune and maybe one day he won't be absolutely ****ing terrible.

I think as long as Sakurai's involved Link will always be ****ing terrible.

 

[Zelkam]

I still think that Link's grab should get upgraded to the double clawshot. With that he could have the clawshots extend in both directions simultaneously, and if you manage to grab two people at once then the pummel would be bashing their heads together.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

They should make his grab either faster or longer, because right now, it's slow, not very long, and possibly the worst in the game.

 

[BaPTraPLaP]

I still think that Link's grab should get upgraded to the double clawshot. With that he could have the clawshots extend in both directions simultaneously, and if you manage to grab two people at once then the pummel would be bashing their heads together.

Maybe this but instead of it going to the back, we get a window to try grabbing again with Link extending the other clawshot.