Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[Elessar]

This new breed of Link mains are so removed from the original ones that they can't detect trolling.

 

[zeldasmash]

They remove Link's Jab Lock and nerf his Jab 1 in general.....yet they keep Dedede's Jab Lock and Fox's Jab Lock..........

 

[Rizen]

This new breed of Link mains are so removed from the original ones that they can't detect trolling.

I've actually seen Link in tier list top 10s. 11th in this one:
http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssb4/
The problem is some people actually believe it.

 

[Drigo Toes]

Well... This is definitely an overall Nerf... We have to back into our brawl days...

EDIT: Shocking Spin Attack (SSA) is still useless. In ledge, uncharged F-Smash is more Powerfull and kills early than SSA.

EDIT2: D-Smash is more powerfull now. D-Smash Kills at 95%-100% depending on rage and char (proved against Fox)

EDIT3: At least D-Smash is less powerfull when used after double jab... i don't understand this!

 

[link2702]

they got rid of bomb fsmashing....


....

;-; my main mind**** on noobs in for glory is gone.

 

[Serac]

hmmm... that's weird.

our up-special does pre-patch damage when the opponent is at 0%

edit: not doing this on the 3DS

Maybe you should check again, front up b does 14% back does 12%, also the knockback is stronger in the front. Maybe we should check the viability of jab>jab>up b.

 

[ama99]

How much worse is Jab 2>other moves.

 

[Dumbfire]

There are some really small framadata changes on characters, like a supposed 2 frame lag reduction on Ganon's Fsmash (the last patches reduced landing lag on his aerials) and a 2 frame lag reduction on MK's Nair. We might see more slight frame changes -- although I imagine they'd be nerfs for Link.

 

[ama99]

Why would Link be nerfed in the first place? He was just fine as is.

 

[FSK]

Can anyone test to see if there were changes to Link's dash attack? someone mentioned it was nerfed :S

 

[LordCQ]

Wow, sounds like they've ****ed up Link big time

 

[Dumbfire]

Wow, sounds like they've ****ed up Link big time

It's not *that* bad, we just lost the godly Jab. The other nerfs are minor enough. Many of us counted on Bomblides being out so it's almost a relief. We'll... survive.

 

[Serac]

Can anyone test to see if there were changes to Link's dash attack? someone mentioned it was nerfed :S

Tipped dash does 14% and untipped 12%, I believe it used to be 14% and 13%.

Eddit: I'm getting 14%, 13% and 12%.

 

[Dumbfire]

Tipped dash does 14% and untipped 12%, I believe it used to be 14% and 13%.

I still get 13 too occasionally, in the middle. Can get 12, 13 and 14 now!

Edit: Up B definitely is stronger, and I got Dthrow to Bair/Usmash as a confirmed combo on Kirby already (only at 0 percent). Is Dtilt faster? I used it so little I can't really tell.

 

[FSK]

Been testing Dtilt a bit and from my testing Dtil no longer spikes from the ledge. It is also no longer a spike but has been changed to a meteor.

 

[Dumbfire]

Dthrow combos nicely into Bair/Usmash at <10 percents. After it's a good combo set-up till at least 50. After that percent is only works well when the opponents DIs up and not sideways.

 

[ama99]

Dthrow combos nicely into Bair/Usmash at <10 percents. After it's a good combo set-up till at least 50. After that percent is only works well when the opponents DIs up and not sideways.

Link finally has throw setups, thank god.

 

[Lawz.]

This is what happens when you cater to the scrubby For Glory fan base. Adapt? No, Nerf plz.

Just look at Sonic.

 

[FSK]

Been checking percentages so far: (I'm using blubba's thread as reference)

Dsmash sweetspot nerfed(18% -> 17%)
Uair strong hit nerfed(16% -> 15%), weak hit buffed (10% -> 13%)
Arrows nerfed, fully charged (13% -> 12%)
Grounded up-b buffed, front hit (12% -> 14%)

Next up is knockback(Values should be correct now)

Utilt might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 137% instead of 138%
ftilt might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 136% instead of 148%
usmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 110% instead of 115%
first hit fsmash -> second hit fsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 103% instead of 110%
tipper fsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 120% instead of 124%
second hit fsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 113% instead of 119%
first hit dsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 109% instead of 112%
second hit dsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 160% instead of 169%
Dash attack close hit might have slightly decreased knockback, KO option at 123% instead of 111%
uthrow might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 167% instead of 172%
nair might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 163% instead of 169%
uair might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 119% instead of 136%

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Edit: Up B definitely is stronger, and I got Dthrow to Bair/Usmash as a confirmed combo on Kirby already (only at 0 percent). Is Dtilt faster? I used it so little I can't really tell.

Kirby can jump and avoid follow ups.

You may be on to something about D-tilt seeming faster, but then, placebo effect is entirely possible.

 

[link7]

Just checked. You can still jab, manually crouch, then perform another first jab into whatever. It still hurts us though. Link's insta death if he hits a shield with his UpB is still in. Patch that **** out please Sukurai.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

The damage done to Link's Jab:
Essentially they've completely removed the iasa frames.
Link must return completely to his neutral stance before you can perform any other action, including a crouch or a tilt etc, but not even returning to his neutral stance will allow him to do another immediate Jab 1 without first crouch cancelling from his neutral stance. (Doesn't make sense? That's the point.) Link's Jab 1 went from one of the best to one of the worst, and I wish I was exaggerating. Nerffing it to this extent was completely unnecessary. I understand why they'd want to remove the specific exploit we found, but there are so many more subtle ways to do it. This is the equivalent of going to the hairdresser to get your fringe straitened only to have your body sawn in half with a chainsaw. It's clumsy and lazy programming. From now on, you may as well use all three jabs every time. Ending it on Jab 2 isn't worth it imo.

 

[Nimious]

Just checked. You can still jab, manually crouch, then perform another first jab into whatever. It still hurts us though. Link's insta death if he hits a shield with his UpB is still in. Patch that **** out please Sukurai.

Well yeah. Did you expect Link to jab then stay stuck in jab animation?

The crouching no longer cuts lag or hardly reduces it after jab so there's no point to it anymore. In actual play Jab -> Whatever isn't usable anymore. This is beyond damaging to Link, it's a harsh uncalled for nerf that was poorly thought of.

Though the Up B thing isn't really a big deal. I'm curious if it actually got people killed in competitive play.

 

[Dumbfire]

I use Up B a lot. Tried some Dthrow to Dash forward to charge Up B to catch an airdgode -- really fun and it works.

 

[link7]

Well yeah. Did you expect Link to jab then stay stuck in jab animation?

The crouching no longer cuts lag or hardly reduces it after jab so there's no point to it anymore. In actual play Jab -> Whatever isn't usable anymore. This is beyond damaging to Link, it's a harsh uncalled for nerf that was poorly thought of.

Though the Up B thing isn't really a big deal. I'm curious if it actually got people killed in competitive play.

Sorry, by manually crouching, I meant flicking the dialog stick down quickly. You don't see the crouch animation.
Edit: Just saw Foxy's post. Yeaaaaaaa.....
Time to pick up Shulk. But I'm just not feeling it.

 

[Nimious]

Sorry, by manually crouching, I meant flicking the dialog stick down quickly. You don't see the crouch animation.

I knew what you meant, the first sentence, I was just teasing lol :].

 

[FSK]

Good news though, Captain Falcon seems to be more or less unchanged

 

[KenMeister]

So basically Link got slightly more kill power, in exchange for having one one of the worst jabs now, and slightly decreased damage % on most moves?

 

[Nimious]

The damage done to Link's Jab:
Essentially they've completely removed the iasa frames.
Link must return completely to his neutral stance before you can perform any other action, including a crouch or a tilt etc, but not even returning to his neutral stance will allow him to do another immediate Jab 1 without first crouch cancelling from his neutral stance. (Doesn't make sense? That's the point.) Link's Jab 1 went from one of the best to one of the worst, and I wish I was exaggerating. Nerffing it to this extent was completely unnecessary. I understand why they'd want to remove the specific exploit we found, but there are so many more subtle ways to do it. This is the equivalent of going to the hairdresser to get your fringe straitened only to have your body sawn in half with a chainsaw. It's clumsy and lazy programming. From now on, you may as well use all three jabs every time. Ending it on Jab 2 isn't worth it imo.

While you're right about jab 1, I don't think it's gotten so bad to use all three jabs.

It's probably still better to jab cancel with the second jab into grabs, smashes or tilts. Although from experience this isn't even close to being as safe as it was before with jab 1...

I really wish Nintendo paid attention to the metagame of all the characters. Maybe then they wouldn't ruin characters with these terrible fixes.

 

[TropicalTaco]

So we're back to being a trash character then... Nice.....

 

[Lawz.]

So we're back to being a trash character then... Nice.....

Back? Lol

 

[Huggles828]

WOW what the **** Nintendo. They DESTROYED link's jab. You guys realize the implications of all this right? This isn't just "oh well no more infinite." It's not even "no more guaranteed utilt out of jab 1 at high percents." This completely ruins his CQC game, and changes his metagame. Throwing out a single jab was HUGE for Link; you could throw one out on landing or on a sloppy approach by an opponent, forcing a reaction from them, then you could retreat, mindgame followup, etc; this was a huge part of his game. That is GONE. Jab 1 is now legitimately punishable by a lot of things and is no longer safe. Link no longer has any quick moves up close to fight off people. Ironically, this is just going to make Link a spam character, which is what people complained about anyway.

This is a huge nerf for Link. Like, bottom of low tier nerf.

 

[TropicalTaco]

Link is now the worst character in the game with this nerf, imo. It's THAT damning. It's like Huggles just said, we'll be forced to camp now.

I have such mixed feelings right now, omfg... It's the first day of Mewtwo, and I'm happy about that, but this Link nerf... my God is it killing the vibe. This is a character-ruining nerf.

 

[Dumbfire]

I just played some online, (beat dozens of Mewtwos). It's -- well, it's very different. I'll use a secondary more intensively now, that's for sure.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

While you're right about jab 1, I don't think it's gotten so bad to use all three jabs.

It's probably still better to jab cancel with the second jab into grabs, smashes or tilts. Although from experience this isn't even close to being as safe as it was before with jab 1...

After a Jab 2 I believe Link has like a 1-frame frame-advantage if you act out of it perfectly, which wouldn't be so bad if Link had the frame data to make this mean anything. This means that against a lot of characters, ending with the Jab 2 would actually be to their advantage meaning our best option in that situation would be to go on the defensive ourselves.
(Oh and the second Jab has set knockback, so it won't get better at higher percents. Just ftr.)

 

[Dumbfire]

I tried some things, but it does appear to me that just finishing the Jab combo is best now. I was punished for doing other strange things.

It's still a fine, fast jab combo, but it's just so bad on shield. I already keep my distance more. Basically I need room for an aerial now (bair first hit, fair first hit or nair) or a bomb/boomerang hit to get 'in' in close range -- that or I punish. The rest is poking around with Zair and projectiles. It ain't too pretty. Still -- I will get over this.

Also, I am extremely happy with the Up B boost. I use it a lot: near the edge (catching an airdogde or intercepting an onstage jump aerial/get-up attack) it kills extremely fast.

 

[Lawz.]

Be thankful you're not Samus, her jabs don't even connect.

 

[Nimious]

After a Jab 2 I believe Link has like a 1-frame frame-advantage if you act out of it perfectly, which wouldn't be so bad if Link had the frame data to make this mean anything. This means that against a lot of characters, ending with the Jab 2 would actually be to their advantage meaning our best option in that situation would be to go on the defensive ourselves.
(Oh and the second Jab has set knockback, so it won't get better at higher percents. Just ftr.)

Well that's really all there is to it. We have to learn on which characters this would work on and just use jab strings on the rest.

I know jab 2 is far from ideal. Coming off of Brawl on the first days of Smash 4 I noticed double jab cancels weren't reliable at all. Ideally this works as a mix up where you really have to gamble on your opponent picking the wrong option off the second jab.

That's rather stupid but still if that's the only option left as a Link main it'll have to be taken. I can't imagine how Link is suppose to safely get kills now if it isn't set up by a jab.

 

[Dumbfire]

Speaking of Jabs, Ganon's does a lot more damage now! Great, because it's the only Oos thing he has when his grab can't connect, which is far too often.

 

[zeldasmash]

I really hate this. They had the guts to keep FOX'S Jab Lock, but they not only took away Link's, but completely butcher his jab from being one of the best to one of the worst. Keep one of the biggest strengths from one of the top tiers, but completely butcher a low high tier AT BEST.
They really call this balancing!?