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[zeldasmash]

I feel Sakurai just dislikes Zelda in general tbh.

For real, this one nerf was more than enough to put a hell of a damper for what would have been a thing to celebrate (Mewtwo's retrun).

Agree. I am so happy that Mewtwo is finally back in Smash after a 7 year hiatus. But at the cost of character that i have played since 1999, just really puts a damper on my enjoyment of the occasion (Mewtwo is awesome to play as by the way).

 

[FooltheFlames]

I feel Sakurai just dislikes Zelda in general tbh.

For real, this one nerf was more than enough to put a hell of a damper for what would have been a thing to celebrate (Mewtwo's retrun).

The way in which the Zelda characters were treated in Brawl, vs. his precious Kirby characters and most of the other characters with their buffed recoveries while Link & Ganon seemed to not even fit in with the rest of the cast physics wise, Zelda's moves never being buffed or adressed, etc. etc. etc. I SAY UR RIGHT

He's just super jelly the Zelda franchise will always be infinitely more successful & beloved than his Kirby franchise

 

[Lawz.]

I guess we'll conveniently forget this Zelda character amirite

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

The best part is, that the amazing replay I wanted to share, my Link vs our best Sheik is now gone into the trash. It was an amazing match that I couldn't wait to share. Too bad huh?

 

[Lawz.]

*A moment of silence for Cyner*

 

[Zerker]

Looking past all of the negative stuff, I have been able to find one very excellent kill setup, using, ironically enough, Link's jab.
Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> (grounded) Spin Attack is now very much so a viable kill combo at high percents (kills Diddy at 90%ish, leaning lower) (not sure if true combo), thanks to our grounded spin attack receiving a large buff.

I'm not sure if this combo was viable in the past, as I never really tried before, but it's been working well for me so far currently.

 

[Darklink401]

Looking past all of the negative stuff, I have been able to find one very excellent kill setup, using, ironically enough, Link's jab.
Jab 1 -> Jab 2 -> (grounded) Spin Attack is now very much so a viable kill combo at high percents (kills Diddy at 90%ish, leaning lower) (not sure if true combo), thanks to our grounded spin attack receiving a large buff.

I'm not sure if this combo was viable in the past, as I never really tried before, but it's been working well for me so far currently.

It was viable before, I used it all the time xD

 

[FooltheFlames]

I guess we'll conveniently forget this Zelda character amirite

I guess you have a good point there!

 

[ZSaberLink]

Btw, on Minty's video, one of the commenters seemed to suggest Jab + Grab would still technically work. Is that the case at all? I always that it was the cancel that allowed you to do so. Or is it now Jab 1-2 + Grab?

 

[Zerker]

It was viable before, I used it all the time xD

Yeah, but with these buffs to spin attack, it's even better.
EDIT: Labbed it up.
Set damage to 100%.
Placed CPU Link on edge.
Spawned Heart container to rid myself of rage.
Delayed a wee bit between jabs to ensure they didn't fly too high to miss spin attack's sweet spot.
Set CPU to spam Jump.
Insta kill with combo.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Have folks looked at whether there were any changes to Link's customs? I always thought Meteor bomb might be a way of getting kill setups on stage, is that something other folks would do?

Also, since this is still valid, I somewhat accidentally ended up doing grab + half pummel, grab release + full jab. Not sure of the dmg here (14-15% maybe), but it seemed like a possible combo (not sure if folks can easily get out of it, but it can be a mixup)?

 

[Anaky]

Before other options were pretty much always better than Jab Jab UpB, such as Dsmash. But yeah, everyone should use UpB alot more now after there second jab.

 

[Darklink401]

Yeah, but with these buffs to spin attack, it's even better.
EDIT: Labbed it up.
Set damage to 100%.
Placed CPU Link on edge.
Spawned Heart container to rid myself of rage.
Delayed a wee bit between jabs to ensure they didn't fly too high to miss spin attack's sweet spot.
Set CPU to spam Jump.
Insta kill with combo.

That's why, while everyone is mad about jab 1 being gone, Ima <3 my buffed combo

 

[MintyGuy700]

Btw, on Minty's video, one of the commenters seemed to suggest Jab + Grab would still technically work. Is that the case at all? I always that it was the cancel that allowed you to do so. Or is it now Jab 1-2 + Grab?

Jab to grab doesn't work. Also, what about my video?

That's why, while everyone is mad about jab 1 being gone, Ima <3 my buffed combo

Jab one being gone is a huge nerf to Link, your favorite combo my be better, but several of Link's best tools are now ruined.

 

[Darklink401]

Jab one being gone is a huge nerf to Link, your favorite combo my be better, but several of Link's best tools are now ruined.

Gotta stay positive~

I, for one, still <3 Link in this iteration.

 

[FSK]

Have folks looked at whether there were any changes to Link's customs? I always thought Meteor bomb might be a way of getting kill setups on stage, is that something other folks would do?

Also, since this is still valid, I somewhat accidentally ended up doing grab + half pummel, grab release + full jab. Not sure of the dmg here (14-15% maybe), but it seemed like a possible combo (not sure if folks can easily get out of it, but it can be a mixup)?

There rage effect is not present in training mode.

 

[ZSaberLink]

There rage effect is not present in training mode.

Are you talking about the meteor bombs with respect to rage.

 

[Zane the pure]

Well, so far so good. I maintained the one thing from my Brawl habits that's helped so far: Canceling Jab2 for follow-ups.
I've been jumping in and out of lobbies with some PR players, and am holding my own pretty well, coming away about 4:6. I'm probably feeling the placebo effect, but grounded Up-B feels like it has a longer active hitbox post-patch, anyone comfirm/deny?

I guess I'm just going off of personal experience here, but losing an important option to a "character breaking" nerf is forcing me to play really solid, and I'm focusing a lot harder to play.
Probably not a good thing for Link in the long run, but I feel like a better player for the time being, having to constantly re-adjust my next setup without a semi-guaranteed option.

And @Volcanic Doomfire I'm not sure exactly what's better about d-throw, I feel like we still don't have any guaranteed setups at any %, but maybe I'm doing wrong? Any ideas if I'm going to slow, I'm trying to D-throw to B-air and haven't had any luck.
(though I think it sends opponents lower at a set level of stun which has gotten me a lot of nasty reads)

 

[Xuan Wu]

It's a harsh reality, isn't it? This is reminding me of the time my fellow Ike mains and I were upset over the loss of our jab cancels from SSBB, and, to lesser extent, our long, disjointed F-air. Ike's metagame was heavily influenced by jab in the previous game. To this day, Ike's jab remains a shadow of its former self.

Sorry about what happened. Still, however, I believe this iteration of Link has potential and will remain strong. I have much faith that you Link mains will find ways to reconsolidate your metagame as the Ikes did theirs. May your resolve be unwavering and resolute.

^-^

 

[MintyGuy700]

It's a harsh reality, isn't it? This is reminding me of the time my fellow Ike mains and I were upset over the loss of our jab cancels from SSBB, and, to lesser extent, our long, disjointed F-air. Ike's metagame was heavily influenced by jab in the previous game. To this day, Ike's jab remains a shadow of its former self.

Sorry about what happened. Still, however, I believe this iteration of Link has potential and will remain strong. I have much faith that you Link mains will find ways to reconsolidate your metagame as the Ikes did theirs. May your resolve be unwavering and resolute.

^-^

I seriously felt terrible for Ike mains when I saw how he transitioned, it seems that if casuals complain, it gets patched.

Examples: Ike's F-smash-nerfed in Smash 4, but retaining it's heavy lag.
Little Mac nerfed Side B, dispite being bad already.
And in this case, Link, being that he's the more popular character with a jab infinite, nerfed.

 

[zeldasmash]

Apparently, casual players = Death to many characters. Funny how they complained about Link, Little Mac & Ike, yet didn't complain about Diddy, Rosalina, Fox or Sonic.

 

[MintyGuy700]

Apparently, casual players = Death to many characters. Funny how they complained about Link, Little Mac & Ike, yet didn't complain about Diddy, Rosalina, Fox or Sonic.

He should ban casuals.

 

[Elessar]

STOP CALLING IT A GODDAMN INFINITE!

I has never, NEVER, been an infinite. It wasn't even a freaking lock! It was as much an infinite or a lock as Sheik's ftilt is in this game of smash. That is to say, it wasn't.

This catastrophic nerf is the result of the rampant misinformation spread by people who cannot play at competitive level and can't even begin to understand the most fundamental mechanics of the game.

 

[Zelkam]

Yeah, but with these buffs to spin attack, it's even better.
EDIT: Labbed it up.
Set damage to 100%.
Placed CPU Link on edge.
Spawned Heart container to rid myself of rage.
Delayed a wee bit between jabs to ensure they didn't fly too high to miss spin attack's sweet spot.
Set CPU to spam Jump.
Insta kill with combo.

Just an FYI, rage (much like stale move negation) is non-existent in training mode

FSK beat me to the punch. I really need to stop commenting before I finish reading the posts

 

[FSK]

Are you talking about the meteor bombs with respect to rage.

Sorry quoted the wrong post :$ Was supposed to quote Zerker

Just an FYI, rage (much like stale move negation) is non-existent in training mode

FSK beat me to the punch. I really need to stop commenting before I finish reading the posts

I failed like a buster though on quoting the wrong post :'(

 

[Rizen]

Been checking percentages so far: (I'm using blubba's thread as reference)

Dsmash sweetspot nerfed(18% -> 17%)
Uair strong hit nerfed(16% -> 15%), weak hit buffed (10% -> 13%)
Arrows nerfed, fully charged (13% -> 12%)
Grounded up-b buffed, front hit (12% -> 14%)

Next up is knockback(Values should be correct now)

Utilt might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 137% instead of 138%
ftilt might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 136% instead of 148%
usmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 110% instead of 115%
first hit fsmash -> second hit fsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 103% instead of 110%
tipper fsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 120% instead of 124%
second hit fsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 113% instead of 119%
first hit dsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 109% instead of 112%
second hit dsmash might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 160% instead of 169%
Dash attack close hit might have slightly decreased knockback, KO option at 123% instead of 111%
uthrow might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 167% instead of 172%
nair might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 163% instead of 169%
uair might have slightly increased knockback, KO option at 119% instead of 136%

^I think those damage nerfs already happened because this frame and damage data is from before the recent patch
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
and it shows the same damage as now.

I've been in a rotten mood all day. :[

I don't think jab 2 cancels are that bad. They might need a higher % but still cancel to moves like Utilt fast.

 

[PKBeam]

why did the dev team use ending lag to nerf link's jab?
wouldn't hitstun/knockback modification have done the same thing, but better?

 

[MintyGuy700]

^I think those damage nerfs already happened because this frame and damage data is from before the recent patch
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
and it shows the same damage as now.

I've been in a rotten mood all day. :[

I don't think jab 2 cancels are that bad. They might need a higher % but still cancel to moves like Utilt fast.

Every Link main feels awful right now. You're by no means alone.

 

[ama99]

So Link is pretty much the worse character in the game now.

 

[MintyGuy700]

why did the dev team use ending lag to nerf link's jab?
wouldn't hitstun/knockback modification have done the same thing, but better?

You are 100% correct. It's either lazy programming, or bias against Link. I' meaning on a bit of both.

So Link is pretty much the worse character in the game now.

Unfortunately, that maybe true.

 

[incrediblej]

why did the dev team use ending lag to nerf link's jab?
wouldn't hitstun/knockback modification have done the same thing, but better?

I feel like increasing endinglag is the worst thing they could do to rid combos and cancels that makes you even more vulnerable

 

[Rizen]

So Link is pretty much the worse character in the game now.

No way is Link the worst. Loosing jab 1 does really suck but people are throwing the nerf out of proportion.

 

[MintyGuy700]

I just don't understand. Take Yoshi, for instance, Yoshi has always been a subpar character in Smash, but Link has always been worse than he. Yet, in this game Yoshi deserves to incredible!? There seems to be some heavy bias from the developers.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Unfortunately, that maybe true.

Huge overreaction. He's still definitely not the worst, but one set of techs have really been taken from us. However, Link is a jack of all trades, so hopefully we'll find something else to cover for the jab.

 

[ama99]

I just don't understand. Take Yoshi, for instance, Yoshi has always been a subpar character in Smash, but Link has always been worse than he. Yet, in this game Yoshi deserves to incredible!? There seems to be some heavy bias from the developers.

The worst is Pikachu, he has NEVER not been high tier.

EDIT: Don't forget Fox too.

Also, why is it that the other characters with the ability to Jab lock did not have their Jabs touched at all

 

[MintyGuy700]

The worst is Pikachu, he has NEVER not been high tier.

Pika was #1 in Smash64. Mid in Melee. High in Brawl. And still good in Smash 4.

 

[ZSaberLink]

The worst is Pikachu, he has NEVER not been high tier.

Lol, don't throw Yoshi under the bus. It's great that a former low tier character in previous games is good in this one.

 

[FSK]

^I think those damage nerfs already happened because this frame and damage data is from before the recent patch
http://pastebin.com/PzTjdtx8
and it shows the same damage as now.

I've been in a rotten mood all day. :[

I don't think jab 2 cancels are that bad. They might need a higher % but still cancel to moves like Utilt fast.

Good catch! So basically just 1 slight damage boost.

 

[link and ike lover]

Damn it Jab cancel is gone!!!!!!

Dat was one of Links greatest Kill moves

 

[MintyGuy700]

Lol, don't throw Yoshi under the bus. It's great that a former low tier character in previous games is good in this one.

I'm just trying to point out the fact that Link, has never been as good as Yoshi, it's silly Link never is anywhere above middle tier.