Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[DarkDeity15]

I wish there were a way to tell Nintendo to re-buff Link's jab again by giving back IASA frames, but getting rid of the ******** suction effect in return. I knew they would do this ever since I saw the video on Link's jab cancel lock (I knew it would gain popularity), so I was prepared for the worst for the most part. I didn't expect this amount of negativity in response to the nerf though.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Solution: Double jab.

That's already been established, the debate was whether or not this is as good.

EDIT: and his other nerfs we just have to deal with.

What other nerfs btw? DThrow now combos. The Ftilt while holding an item is unfortunate, but that happened to all characters across the board and seemed gimmicky. UThrow actually combos easier imo, and it still acts like a kill move if the damage is high enough (I was able to kill Mario @ 170% on Battlefield, which I don't believe is much different than before?).

 

[Rizen]

What other nerfs btw?

Loss of Fsmash while holding an item- an AT since Melee.

 

[ZSaberLink]

idiot


idiot

you're lucky im too tired to properly flame your terrible double post now, and you're also an idiot


time to main MK

Isn't this just considered flaming/trolling? W/e. I really shouldn't give this even a response. "Ignored".

I know a lot of folks here aren't fans of Izaw, but I remember this particular comment from him about his moneymatch with Link again Haze's C. Falcon (who most people here seem to put as high tier at least).

When asked about why he didn't use Jab cancels, he said something to the effect of "Falcon is too fast and would get out of them". That seems to suggest that against certain characters, the 1st jab wouldn't work anyways, so in those cases, it doesn't seem like the nerf would affect too much (except that you definitely won't use jab canceling). Thoughts?

 

[link7]

Guys..... I just got back from a tourney. It was the first Sm4sh tourney the college has held. Over 20 people showed up. I really wasn't feeling this tourney.
I took 1st.
















Using Link. I feel so ****ing conflicted.

 

[ZSaberLink]

Guys..... I just got back from a tourney. It was the first Sm4sh tourney the college has held. Over 20 people showed up. I really wasn't feeling this tourney.
I took 1st.
















Using Link. I feel so ****ing conflicted.

http://www.twitch.tv/smashbroslegacytv/b/650517553

My matches start at 1:13:39, 2:17:45, 2:39:33, and 3:14:15. Enjoy I guess.

Congrats! . Btw, is this post-patch?

 

[link7]

Congrats! . Btw, is this post-patch?

yup.

 

[PKBeam]

the suction on link's jab is the fault of one 80 degree hitbox closest to the hilt of the sword.
you want to stop the jab gimmick? change it to something above 90. the opponent gets pushed out.
that's an easy fix.

sakurai purposefully wanted to nerf link's jab. so it's not going to do much if we spam his twitter.
and that really screws link because it's his best close range attack and he uses it to set up into grabs and kill moves.

Isn't this just considered flaming/trolling? W/e. I really shouldn't give this even a response. "Ignored".

I know a lot of folks here aren't fans of Izaw, but I remember this particular comment from him about his moneymatch with Link again Haze's C. Falcon (who most people here seem to put as high tier at least).

When asked about why he didn't use Jab cancels, he said something to the effect of "Falcon is too fast and would get out of them". That seems to suggest that against certain characters, the 1st jab wouldn't work anyways, so in those cases, it doesn't seem like the nerf would affect too much (except that you definitely won't use jab canceling). Thoughts?

speed doesn't affect how easily you can escape a jab cancel. sonic gets nailed by them just as easily as mario.
He probably meant "Falcon is too fast to get hit by Jab" but that's not really true either.

 

[DarkDeity15]

What other nerfs btw? DThrow now combos. The Ftilt while holding an item is unfortunate, but that happened to all characters across the board and seemed gimmicky. UThrow actually combos easier imo, and it still acts like a kill move if the damage is high enough (I was able to kill Mario @ 170% on Battlefield, which I don't believe is much different than before?).

Exactly. In return for a huge nerf, Link also got some huge buffs. That alone is why I'm still optimistic about Link's viability. You can even tell that they knew how much the jab 1 nerf would hurt Link's ability to land a kill move, so they buffed their kill potential corresponding to this. It's good to know that they at least had some common sense here when tweaking Link. Hopefully they realize their mistake of completely getting rid of Jab 1's IASA frames soon, though. It apparently hurts Link way more than they would've thought.

 

[FSK]

Isn't this just considered flaming/trolling? W/e. I really shouldn't give this even a response. "Ignored".

I know a lot of folks here aren't fans of Izaw, but I remember this particular comment from him about his moneymatch with Link again Haze's C. Falcon (who most people here seem to put as high tier at least).

When asked about why he didn't use Jab cancels, he said something to the effect of "Falcon is too fast and would get out of them". That seems to suggest that against certain characters, the 1st jab wouldn't work anyways, so in those cases, it doesn't seem like the nerf would affect too much (except that you definitely won't use jab canceling). Thoughts?

The first hit jab would work on falcon and barely on fox. The two hit jab cancel will most likely not work on them.

What other nerfs btw? DThrow now combos. The Ftilt while holding an item is unfortunate, but that happened to all characters across the board and seemed gimmicky. UThrow actually combos easier imo, and it still acts like a kill move if the damage is high enough (I was able to kill Mario @ 170% on Battlefield, which I don't believe is much different than before?).

Most characters couldn't pull out a frikkin item to use the frikkin AT in the first place so the nerf has no effect on them.....

Exactly. In return for a huge nerf, Link also got some huge buffs. That alone is why I'm still optimistic about Link's viability. You can even tell that they knew how much the jab 1 nerf would hurt Link's ability to land a kill move, so they buffed their kill potential corresponding to this. It's good to know that they at least had some common sense here when tweaking Link. Hopefully they realize their mistake of completely getting rid of Jab 1's IASA frames soon, though. It apparently hurts Link way more than they would've thought.

The knockback buffs are not completely confirmed yet. So far we've mostly confirmed nerfs.

 

[Nimious]

Lots of new names! Don't worry guys; the jab didn't define Link. We'll find other strategies!

Believe in your strengths... Believe...

So you're telling us to spam? I think you're telling us to spam.

 

[Rizen]

@ link7 congrats
Yeah Link got the raw deal in this patch. Do we know exactly what the power buffs are?

 

[DarkDeity15]

The first hit jab would work on falcon and barely on fox. The two hit jab cancel will most likely not work on them.



Most characters couldn't pull out a frikkin item to use the frikkin AT in the first place so the nerf has no effect on them.....




The knockback buffs are not completely confirmed yet. So far we've mostly confirmed nerfs.

I suppose you guys should get to work, then. Being able to true combo bair from dthrow is still a huge buff though. It helps Link rack up damage more quickly as well.

 

[PKBeam]

he got 2% on spin attack.
i think aerial shocking spin got buffed.

 

[DarkDeity15]

he got 2% on spin attack.
i think aerial shocking spin got changed.

Shocking spin tho? How?

 

[PKBeam]

Shocking Spin Attack (aerial)
Frame 7- 8: 4% 100f/90w 80° Electric
Frame 35-36: 6% 30b/160g (KO@ 142%) 30° 1.2-Hitlag Electric
Max Damage: 10%
Enables all ledge grabs on real frame 37

that's his 1.0.4 data.
when i tried it in customs test it did 4, 1, 1, 1, 6
also did some weird thing on the sandbag where it flew up really high

 

[FSK]

I suppose you guys should get to work, then. Being able to true combo bair from dthrow is still a huge buff though. It helps Link rack up damage more quickly as well.

Does dthrow to bair combo at all percents on all characters? cause if it doesn't then its minor and pretty insignificant. AND we have to grab an opponent to do it which is risky as hell for Link in the first place. We could probably rack up damage faster with jab 1 cancel...

 

[PKBeam]

no we can do jab1 -> grab.
oh wait.

 

[Catana]

It's good to know that they at least had some common sense here when tweaking Link. Hopefully they realize their mistake of completely getting rid of Jab 1's IASA frames soon, though. It apparently hurts Link way more than they would've thought.

you're saying they have had some common sense about link?
newfag confirmed by this post right here

 

[ZSaberLink]

Does dthrow to bair combo at all percents on all characters? cause if it doesn't then its minor and pretty insignificant. AND we have to grab an opponent to do it which is risky as hell for Link in the first place. We could probably rack up damage faster with jab 1 cancel...

That's what Jab 2 Cancel is for xD. Jab 2 + Grab (esp if they're shielding) + Bair =). It's not ideal obviously, but it's technically there. Link7 seemed to do the DThrow + Bair in the first match posted above I believe. I've actually been able to get the combo a LOT easier if I pull off the grab at %ages less than 50 or so. At very low %ages, I've even done a pivot FTilt fairly easily and had it hit after a DThrow (which is pretty nice).

 

[FSK]

That's what Jab 2 Cancel is for xD. Jab 2 + Grab (esp if they're shielding) + Bair =). I've actually been able to get the combo a LOT easier if I pull off the grab at %ages less than 50 or so. At very low %ages, I've even done a pivot FTilt fairly easily and had it hit after a DThrow (which is pretty nice).

You know the opponent can probably grab you after jab2 before yout grab comes out? lol

I've even been grabbed in between jab 1 and jab 2,

 

[ZSaberLink]

You know the opponent can probably grab you after jab2 before yout grab comes out? lol

I've even been grabbed in between jab 1 and jab 2,

Isn't that why Dark Deity said we have to space our jabs now?

 

[FSK]

Isn't that why Dark Deity said we have to space our jabs now?

We've always needed to space our jab. Still both jabs on shield can easily be rolled behind us or sidestepped to punish us. We are at the disadvantage just like in brawl.

 

[Rizen]

Jab 1 cancel didn't work at any %. Just saying.

 

[Dumbfire]

What other nerfs btw?

the knockback decrease on da is pretty significant, because now there is no reason to use it, ever

who are these newbies? wtf is this chit these last few pages

 

[Catana]

http://puu.sh/hfKDj/0eaaec5cb0.png
the irony

 

[DarkDeity15]

Isn't that why Dark Deity said we have to space our jabs now?

I don't think it was me who said that though.

But if you get grabbed between jab 1 & 2, that's your fault for not jabbing fast enough @ FSK

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I don't think it was me who said that though.

But if you get grabbed between jab 1 & 2, that's your fault for not jabbing fast enough @ FSK

No not really. It's totally possible to grab Link in between jab 1 and 2 if the opponent shields the first jab and they have a semi-decent grab and you were within grab range when you Jabbed.
I'll put it this way. DK can grab us.

Spoiler

Fastest Grab:

1. Diddy, Dr. Mario, Fox, G&W, Kirby, Lucario, Luigi, Mario, Mii Fighter/Gunner/Swordsman, Ness,
Peach, Pikachu, Pit/Dark Pit, Jigglypuff, Mega Man, Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic, Wii Fit (frame 6-7)
--
2. Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, King DeDeDe, Ike, Lucina/Marth,
Meta Knight, Palutena, ROB, Robin, Shulk (frame 7-8)
--
3. Charizard, DK, Duck Hunt, Falco, Wario (frame 8-9)
--
4. Bowser, Little Mac (frame 9-10)
--
5a. Zelda (frame 10-11)
5b. Olimar (frame 10-?)
--
6a. Bowser Jr (frame 12-13)
6b. Link, Toon Link (frame 12-18)
6c. Pac-Man (frame 12-14, 22-25, 32-39)
--
7a. Greninja (frame 14-15)
7b. Yoshi (frame 14-24)
--
8. Villager (frame 15-16)
--
9a. Samus (frame 16-25)
9b. ZSS (frame 16-29)

So that's what, more than half the cast able to grab us inbetween Jab 1 and 2.

 

[DarkDeity15]

No not really. It's totally possible to grab Link in between jab 1 and 2 if the opponent shields the first jab and they have a semi-decent grab and you were within grab range when you Jabbed.
I'll put it this way. DK can grab us.

Spoiler

Fastest Grab:

1. Diddy, Dr. Mario, Fox, G&W, Kirby, Lucario, Luigi, Mario, Mii Fighter/Gunner/Swordsman, Ness,
Peach, Pikachu, Pit/Dark Pit, Jigglypuff, Mega Man, Rosalina, Sheik, Sonic, Wii Fit (frame 6-7)
--
2. Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, King DeDeDe, Ike, Lucina/Marth,
Meta Knight, Palutena, ROB, Robin, Shulk (frame 7-8)
--
3. Charizard, DK, Duck Hunt, Falco, Wario (frame 8-9)
--
4. Bowser, Little Mac (frame 9-10)
--
5a. Zelda (frame 10-11)
5b. Olimar (frame 10-?)
--
6a. Bowser Jr (frame 12-13)
6b. Link, Toon Link (frame 12-18)
6c. Pac-Man (frame 12-14, 22-25, 32-39)
--
7a. Greninja (frame 14-15)
7b. Yoshi (frame 14-24)
--
8. Villager (frame 15-16)
--
9a. Samus (frame 16-25)
9b. ZSS (frame 16-29)

So that's what, more than half the cast able to grab us inbetween Jab 1 and 2.

So then basically for the most part it's your spacing you need to worry about.

 

[Himura Kenshin]

When I first heard about the 1st jab nerf, I was optimistic becuase I thought we can still achieve the same results with a little more work, but that's simply not the case. I've tried, but the jab cancel is gone entirely, so don't even think of giving it a shot. If you land some new "jab cancel", it's not through your own merit, your opponent didn't act fast enough. I'd rather not rely on my opponent forgetting they can grab or jab fast enough to punish my "cancel" attempt. Once we understand that, we can work on new kill options and tactics, I'm thinking about NOT being campy or spammy, but rather playing a bait and switch game against the opponent, it's way funner than being campy.

Also, his down throw to back air isn't very good at all, there simply isn't enough hit stun to land the back air most of the time.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

So then basically for the most part it's your spacing you need to worry about.

Pretty much.

 

[Dumbfire]

Yes it seems Dthrow is only a little beter at low percents. Then we have more options, though still no confirms. Later they can jut DI sideways, with little to no hitstun, and we're powerless again.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

I also think that the D-throw buff is overrated. I don't know how people got it in their head that D-throw to Bair is a true combo or even a combo on any character on any percent. Because it isn't. It's not even close. The opponent will always be able to either DJ away or shield it.
I honestly don't think we have anything guaranteed out of a D-throw on any character on any percent. I've tried turn around Jab, Up-B and turn around U-tilt.

 

[FSK]

Pretty much.

However there is no problem for most characters to run at Link and shield or powershield first jab and grab before the second jab comes out. Before we could sometimes get out a spotdodge before the grab, but now we are just screwed.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

However there is no problem for most characters to run at Link and shield or powershield first jab and grab before the second jab comes out.

Exactly. So good spacing is required XD.

 

[FSK]

Exactly. So good spacing is required XD.

No I'm serious :$ as long as the opponent is running the spacing doesn't matter. Sheik will get you no matter what if they shield the first jab. We can't jab running opponents anymore its too risky. I'm not even sure its ever been safe anymore. If by good spacing you mean never jab a running opponent then I missunderstood you xD apologies.

The reason for this is that jab has virtually no shield knockback, opponents slide when shielding from dash and your hurtbox extends towards the opponent when you jab.

Actually did some more testing at the maximum range she won't reach you, but at that point you are still comitted to your jab so she'll punish you anyway. With jab 1 cancel you would have gotten away.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

No I'm serious :$ as long as the opponent is running the spacing doesn't matter. Sheik will get you no matter what I they shield the first jab. We can't jab running opponents anymore its too risky. I'm not even sure its ever been safe anymore. If by good spacing you mean never jab a running opponent then I missunderstood you xD apologies.

The reason for this is that jab has virtually no shield knockback, opponents slide when shielding from dash and your hurtbox extends towards the opponent when you jab.

Yeah exactly. It's definitely a good thing to point this particular problem out though so you're right for doing so. The rush-down is real. Jabbing shouldn't be used against running opponents.
Just note that in this particular scenario where we're talking about grabbing between jab 1 and 2, if they shielded the Jab at the absolute tip of it, they often won't be within grab range as they have to grab immediately. It definitely increases their grab range, but it's not always going to be enough.

 

[FSK]

Yeah exactly. It's definitely a good thing to point this particular problem out though so you're right for doing so. In order to make Jab ok against a running opponent we'd have to throw it out super early and they'd have to have very poor grab range or ground speed. The rush-down is real.
Just note that in this particular scenario where we're talking about grabbing between jab 1 and 2, if they shielded the Jab at the absolute tip of it, they often won't be within grab range as they have to grab immediately. It definitely increases their grab range, but it's not always going to be enough.

Yeah you are correct, I spoke too soon about the guaranteed grab. But once you've jabbed the shield you are screwed anyway since the jab is all or nothing now.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

All the more reason why Jabbing should not be done against running opponents in reality.

 

[FSK]

All the more reason why Jabbing should not be done against running opponents in reality.

It seems like Falcon can perfect shield jab 1 then jab 2 and then he can jab link before jab 3 comes out. Even at max distance.

I don't think he could do this with jab 1 cancelling. I wish I could format my wii u or something to test.