Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[DUKEL]

I've found that grabbing against running opponents works really well though, especially if they run into shield to after being conditioned by our jab.

At lower percents, dthrow -> side smash (i think it's a true combo?) works really well and racks up quick damage.

Up-special kills at 90 at the edge of the stage so if you get a good read on a approach - use spin attack. Or if you're punishing, use our sliding spin. If we find that most of our moves have increased knockback, (which it's looking to be the case) I see this patch as an overall buff to link. But then, I was expecting the jab 1 cancel to be taken out to this magnitude anyway so I've not been playing with that AT for the last week.

Link's still a strong character. Ya'll are blowing this nerf way out of proportion. And he certainly isn't the worst character in the game. If you're ever worried about link being the worst, remember that characters like Wii Fit Trainer, Zelda, and Charizard exist, and be glad they're not your main.

 

[Catana]

I've found that grabbing against running opponents works really well though, especially if they run into shield to after being conditioned by our jab.

At lower percents, dthrow -> side smash (i think it's a true combo?) works really well and racks up quick damage.

i stopped reading here because the stupidity and ignorance became a bit too much

 

[PKBeam]

I've found that grabbing against running opponents works really well though, especially if they run into shield to after being conditioned by our jab.

not unless they're really bad.
it might work once but they'll catch on and it gets ugly if you try it again.

At lower percents, dthrow -> side smash (i think it's a true combo?) works really well and racks up quick damage.

link doesn't have any true combos out of dthrow. it's all mindgames. they're free if they airdodge but that never happens with good players.

Up-special kills at 90 at the edge of the stage so if you get a good read on a approach - use spin attack. Or if you're punishing, use our sliding spin. If we find that most of our moves have increased knockback, (which it's looking to be the case) I see this patch as an overall buff to link. But then, I was expecting the jab 1 cancel to be taken out to this magnitude anyway so I've not been playing with that AT for the last week.

Link's still a strong character. Ya'll are blowing this nerf way out of proportion. And he certainly isn't the worst character in the game. If you're ever worried about link being the worst, remember that characters like Wii Fit Trainer, Zelda, and Charizard exist, and be glad they're not your main.

His jab got crippled. and jab was (one of) his best normals. Jab1 was super safe, had consistent setups into tons of stuff. now you're forced to use jab2, which is unreliable and less safe.

I don't think any moves bar Spin attack were confirmed to be more powerful, so this patch is definitely a nerf.

put it this way, say they got rid of Ness' bthrow's killpower. that's enough to send him from high tier to lower mid, easily. why won't a similar thing happen to link? obviously he's not the worst character (btw worst character is probably swordfighter) but now he'll drop some places because of this.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

At lower percents, dthrow -> side smash (i think it's a true combo?) works really well and racks up quick damage.

Read. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...urai-hates-link.370194/page-157#post-19001668

 

[DUKEL]

put it this way, say they got rid of Ness' bthrow's killpower. that's enough to send him from high tier to lower mid, easily. why won't a similar thing happen to link? obviously he's not the worst character (btw worst character is probably swordfighter) but now he'll drop some places because of this.

I've seen plenty of Ness players not even use the bthrow regularly and still do excellently in tourney play. It's just one of Ness' kill options, as was link's jab.

Saying that he's now the worst character because his godlike jab was removed is a joke. @ZSaberLink already pointed out that Izaw won his money match against the Falcon without using the jab cancel. It can be done.

Read. http://smashboards.com/threads/link...urai-hates-link.370194/page-157#post-19001668

I already read that. You said dthrow to bair isn't a true combo (which is true), as well as a number of other things (also true). Side smash wasn't included in those things.

After some experimentation it's nowhere near a true combo. My mistake. I tested that when I first got the patch but couldn't get on the boards for a while so I was sharing what I thought had found hours before.

i stopped reading here because the stupidity and ignorance became a bit too much

You're clearly salty about the patch, which is making you be very unpleasant to see on the boards. Everyone else here is at least being respectful. The only posts you have made have done nothing to contribute to the conversation, and all of them have included some sort of insult. This, again, was nothing more than a hate post. Please stop making a fool of yourself for your own sake.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Try to resist the urge Cat XD. It's not worth it.

 

[Elessar]

It was a damn active night.

This is all pointless. All I see are Link veterans, people who have mained Link since 64 or melee and who have stuck with him through brawl, my battle brothers, giving you unblooded cocky youths an experienced perspective of what has happened. How do you respond? By throwing away over 10 years (you were 6 @ DarkDeity15 , six) of competitive tourney experience and saying "Link is still good".

You know what, I'll say the same thing I always say. Prove it. However, prove it in a major tourney. Nobody cares about FG but scrubs, nobody cares about you vs your friends unless your friends are names we'd recognize, nobody cares about you small local tourney unless you have a real scene. I have a tourney in May in which I'll still go all Link and will be in the top 5 most probably but that's because out of my scene sandbags. You want to show us this nerf is trivial? Then shut up and go place high at a real tourney. Until then, your words are meaningless.

 

[FSK]

My turn...

I've found that grabbing against running opponents works really well though, especially if they run into shield to after being conditioned by our jab.

Are you seriously saying that we should condition someone to run at us with shield by jabbing at them effectively setting us up to get rekt by grab and grab combos. Such that we can grab the opponent to get...a throw?

At lower percents, dthrow -> side smash (i think it's a true combo?) works really well and racks up quick damage.

This has been deconfirmed, dthrow does not lead to anything. If you are consistently 'comboing' your dthrow into other attacks its not because dthrow to something else is a thing, its because your opponent is a scrub.

Up-special kills at 90 at the edge of the stage so if you get a good read on a approach - use spin attack. Or if you're punishing, use our sliding spin. If we find that most of our moves have increased knockback, (which it's looking to be the case) I see this patch as an overall buff to link. But then, I was expecting the jab 1 cancel to be taken out to this magnitude anyway so I've not been playing with that AT for the last week.

Increased knockback has yet to be fully confirmed all we know is that some moves appear to have increased knockback and some appear to have decreased knockback. Up-b is incredibly risky and can get us easily rekt.

Link's still a strong character. Ya'll are blowing this nerf way out of proportion. And he certainly isn't the worst character in the game. If you're ever worried about link being the worst, remember that characters like Wii Fit Trainer, Zelda, and Charizard exist, and be glad they're not your main.

We are not blowing the nerf out of proportion. Link was a very very strong character when the game was released for 3 reasons. Down-b cancelling, bomb not hitting us when hitting opponent and jab 1 cancel. Two of these have been removed which is significant and thus Link is now only a shadow of its former self. Is he the worst in smash now? Probably not, but he is not good anymore and especially not tournament viable.

I've seen plenty of Ness players not even use the bthrow regularly and still do excellently in tourney play. It's just one of Ness' kill options, as was link's jab.

Good for you...

Saying that he's now the worst character because his godlike jab was removed is a joke. @ZSaberLink already pointed out that Izaw won his money match against the Falcon without using the jab cancel. It can be done.

That money match is a joke for several reasons. Haze had no idea how to play the matchup. He gave Izaw way too much respect, Falcon is supposed to rushdown Link and not give him space to breathe. Izaw's apparent reasoning on why not to use it against Falcon is wrong. Jab1 cancel works against Falcon. One match against an inexperienced opponent means nothing.

I already read that. You said dthrow to bair isn't a true combo (which is true), as well as a number of other things (also true). Side smash wasn't included in those things.

Its not a true combo at all and easily escapable.

After some experimentation it's nowhere near a true combo. My mistake. I tested that when I first got the patch but couldn't get on the boards for a while so I was sharing what I thought had found hours before.

Good.

You're clearly salty about the patch, which is making you be very unpleasant to see on the boards. Everyone else here is at least being respectful. Please stop making a fool of yourself for your own sake.

People not willing to accept the truth can be annoying. Keep in mind this discussion has been going on for hours before you arrived.


I also want to put out there how important it is to have at least a secondary. It hopefully covers unfair matchups which will in the long run give you better tournament results. This will result in more matches at tournament level which will also make you a better player. BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY it will give you perspective. It will help you see the weaknesses of your own main. Its very easy to become blind if you are only trying to play one character at a high level. I remember back in the days of brawl, I mained only Link and he was essentially my only perspective of smash. I knew Link was garbage in brawl, but I never truly realized how bad he really was until I picked up another character. This time I'm not making the same mistake again. I urge all Link mains to have atleast a secondary, it will help you a lot in the long run.

 

[PKBeam]

has anyone tried doing (evenly spaced) Jab1 -> Jab2 -> Jab1 -> Jab2?
it looks like it locks characters kind of well, it probably doesn't but what the heck, it won't hurt putting it up here

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It doesn't.

 

[DUKEL]

@ FSK was it really necessary to prove me wrong about the combo that wasn't three times in one post? Especially when I said I made a mistake and was wrong about said combo? You literally have a post at the top of the page were you admitted to speaking too soon. Guess what happened to me. (I'll give you a hint: it includes speaking before I knew all the relevant information)

has anyone tried doing (evenly spaced) Jab1 -> Jab2 -> Jab1 -> Jab2?
it looks like it locks characters kind of well, it probably doesn't but what the heck, it won't hurt putting it up here

Be careful what you say, apparently putting forward ideas when you don't have frame-perfect data is frowned upon here. Won't be long until Cat calls you an idiot now.

Leaving the Link boards for a bit. At least until we cool down. Myself included.

 

[FSK]

@ FSK was it really necessary to prove me wrong about the combo that wasn't three times in one post? Especially when I said I made a mistake and was wrong about said combo?


Be careful what you say, apparently putting forward ideas when you don't have frame-perfect data is frowned upon here. Won't be long until Cat calls you an idiot now.

Leaving the Link boards for a bit. At least until we cool down. Myself included.

I was wrong about a detail, the conclusion remained valid.

I just quoted everything you said and responded to that. Sometimes breakthroughs only happen through repetition

 

[PKBeam]

Be careful what you say, apparently putting forward ideas when you don't have frame-perfect data is frowned upon here. Won't be long until Cat calls you an idiot now.

oh really, now?

 

[Catana]

@ FSK was it really necessary to prove me wrong about the combo that wasn't three times in one post? Especially when I said I made a mistake and was wrong about said combo? You literally have a post at the top of the page were you admitted to speaking too soon. Guess what happened to me. (I'll give you a hint: it includes speaking before I knew all the relevant information)


Be careful what you say, apparently putting forward ideas when you don't have frame-perfect data is frowned upon here. Won't be long until Cat calls you an idiot now.

Leaving the Link boards for a bit. At least until we cool down. Myself included.

come back once you've gotten a little bit educated

 

[Elessar]

Be careful what you say, apparently putting forward ideas when you don't have frame-perfect data is frowned upon here.

Spreading misinformation is what is frowned upon, and most of the ideas suggested have been that. Yes, we expect evidence to support your ideas because that gives them validity. You simply saying something without any support won't be taken seriously anywhere. In fact, we have this problem precisely because of the rampant misinformation of calling the Jab cancel an infinite.

We demand proof and evidence of every claim, nobody is taken at face value. As it should be. Stop trying to make fun or be condescending towards good sound practice.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Be careful what you say, apparently putting forward ideas when you don't have frame-perfect data is frowned upon here. Won't be long until Cat calls you an idiot now.

I only get pissy if people don't put the effort into reading first. I go to a lot of effort to provide that detailed data and present it in a way that is easily accessible. I just don't like having to repeat myself within a very short period of time.

 

[Quillion]

Link probably got nerfed because he's one of the big Goddamned Bats in For Glory (along with Ness, Zamus, and Little Mac).

FG Link players are soooooo lame.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Link is still viable lol.

 

[DUKEL]

come back once you've gotten a little bit educated

http://i.imgur.com/d7WWCgI.jpg?1
You've literally never posted anything other than hate. I'm not going to bother responding to any of your posts from now on. Please grow up.

 

[PKBeam]

that is quite the trail of destruction.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

Link probably got nerfed because he's one of the big Goddamned Bats in For Glory (along with Ness, Zamus, and Little Mac).

FG Link players are soooooo lame.

This actually brings up a very simple point that I've been meaning to make.

Until smash games start getting balanced around competitive play, Link will never be one of the better characters.
Let's think about what are some of the well established 'must have' qualities for designing the character Link in a smash game. Poor mobility, heavy/fast faller, hard hitting, projectile user, underwhelming recovery, long range slower attacks, and a tether grab. These qualities are actually not that bad in a non-competitive environment. Mobility or overall speed of attacks doesn't matter as much as the neutral game of footsies is non-existent. Being a heavy fast faller isn't so bad either because no-one's taking advantage of it by juggling you for ridiculous combos. Projectiles are god-tier when no-one has a half decent shield game. The recovery issue isn't anywhere near as bad when gimping isn't a real threat. Etc.
Any character who is heavy, slower and hard hitting will always suffer in the long run of the competitive metagame. Even if they start out considered good, in time people will learn the matchup and take advantage of the weaknesses. More agile and faster characters will conversely always end up doing better in smash with the way the game is currently balanced.

 

[TNS|Quake]

I'm almost certain Link's f-tilt became a better edge-guarding option with 1.06. Weeks ago I built some stages to test how far below a plane people's tilts and smashes go to understand why Sonic and Mac can d-smash and keep you from ledge-snapping while Link seems unable to do this with as much consistency. I even asked @ Elessar about Link's options in the Q&A thread because they seemed miniscule compared to the others. My research concluded that Link's f-tilt has the most downward-hitting hitboxes of any grounded tilt or smash he has, and that paled in comparison to the other characters.

To test this I built a custom stage with a series of platforms stacked on top of one another. I jumped on the stack with Link and had Pikachu stand underneath. I'd whiff a tilt/smash and then go down to the next platform. Repeated until something hit. Ftilt always hit first. dtilt, dsmash, and dash attack were about the same and tied for second. I remember I had to jump down a few platforms on my custom stage to hit him even with an F-tilt.

I just loaded up the stage again before I head into the office and realized I don't have to go down any platforms now. I can hit him from the top one with ftilt. To rule out the possibility that Pikachu had his hurtboxes increased I then tested general edge-guarding with f-tilt to kill the ledge snap and it seems significantly better. I can get many characters before they snap to the ledge much easier now, whereas previously catching those same characters was about as common as catching a unicorn.

I detest walls of text and apologize for all this but I'd appreciate if someone else looks into this to confirm my suspicion.

Debunked. I must've been drunk and deleted a few platforms off my stage. Shout outs to Zelkam for testing this for me.

 

[Elessar]

Link is still viable lol.

Prove it.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Prove it.

He may not be as good without them, but still good nonetheless. I honestly don't know what's with you guys and downplaying Link despite all the other tools he has to compete with. He has crap loads of effective kill moves, amazing projectiles, great aerials along with an exceptional ability to gimp, better mobility overall, and believe it or not, other kill set-ups besides freakin' jab 1 cancels. And with customs in play, meteor bombs can outright replace jab 1 cancels with how brain-dead easy it is to convert successful hits into kill moves, grabs, ect. so long as the opponent has enough damage on them which Link has no problem at all racking up. There is close to no risk of punishment if your bomb misses, as well. You're fooling yourselves if you think Link doesn't have the potential to be a good character in this game anymore.

 

[Fox Is Openly Deceptive]

It's not just about kill set ups though.

 

[Elessar]

He may not be as good without them, but still good nonetheless. I honestly don't know what's with you guys and downplaying Link despite all the other tools he has to compete with. He has crap loads of effective kill moves, amazing projectiles, great aerials along with an exceptional ability to gimp, better mobility overall, and believe it or not, other kill set-ups besides freakin' jab 1 cancels. And with customs in play, meteor bombs can outright replace jab 1 cancels with how brain-dead easy it is to convert successful hits into kill moves, grabs, ect. so long as the opponent has enough damage on them which Link has no problem at all racking up. There is close to no risk of punishment if your bomb misses, as well. You're fooling yourselves if you think Link doesn't have the potential to be a good character in this game anymore.

Then it shouldn't be hard to prove it at a tourney right?

 

[Lawz.]

This is unbelievable. For anyone claiming Link is (or ever was) viable to win a tournament, have you EVER even competed in one?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Then it shouldn't be hard to prove it at a tourney right?

No, it shouldn't. I'll see what can do during summer break or when I can finally use wifi reliably again.

 

[FSK]

For anyone who actually think Link is viable in this game, then prove it and place top 32 at Evo.

 

[Elessar]

No, it shouldn't. I'll see what can do during summer break or when I can finally can use wifi reliably again.

No, no wifi. Offline competitive tournament. You live in Orlando, there are many tourneys near your area. Find one and go, place high. Travel.

Wifi is for casuals and scrubs.

 

[DarkDeity15]

For anyone who actually think Link is viable in this game, then prove it and place top 32 at Evo.

I'm still in High school lol. The best I could do is attend local tournaments here in Orlando. That should be enough to prove something.

 

[Elessar]

I'm still in High school lol. The best I could do is attend local tournaments here in Orlando. That should be enough to prove something.

Florida has a solid scene, but more towards Miami iirc.

Also, DF went to his first tourney when he was 12, had to take the train. Zero travelled from Chile to Apex for his first real competition when he was your age. It has been done before.

But a local tourney could suffice depending on your scene.

 

[Lawz.]

I started competitive Smash when I was 15 years old. That was 2008, and I went to a few majors in high school.

Of course I used Link who was trash tier and winning was a feat in itself when everyone uses a character that Link has a 3/7 disadvantage to.

 

[FSK]

I'm still in High school lol. The best I could do is attend local tournaments here in Orlando. That should be enough to prove something.

Only if your local region is highly competitive. Blubba used to be number 1 in his region with Link in brawl, but that was partly due to his region being crap and partly that he's a very good player. Not because of Link being viable in tournaments or anything.

 

[Zerker]

So are we gonna start a petition to reinstert Link's IASA frames on Jab, or what?
I mean, I can't just up and post a thread about it myself -- my face is way too unfamiliar, as I'm still fresh around these parts.

 

[FSK]

We should use the smash ballot to suggest how to balance Link!

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

This is unbelievable. For anyone claiming Link is (or ever was) viable to win a tournament, have you EVER even competed in one?

This is the most relevant statement in this discussion. Link is better among the cast members in general in sm4sh, but even then competing in tourney after tourney and making top 5 every single time. I came to understand that even at his best in smash4 he still was not and will not be viable. Taking away the great jab he had is just the icing on the **** cake.

 

[MintyGuy700]

The hard truth is, Link will never be high tier without the becoming god tier in casual play.

 

[Dumbfire]

last page

 

[DarkDeity15]

I started competitive Smash when I was 15 years old. That was 2008, and I went to a few majors in high school.

Of course I used Link who was trash tier and winning was a feat in itself when everyone uses a character that Link has a 3/7 disadvantage to.

Well I'll be turning 17 next month, so I'll definitely be starting later than you did. I've shown interest in competitive smash since I was 12, though.