Social Link checked the thread. Wow! This is a nice thread!

[link and ike lover]

@ FSK You dropped Link?

 

[FSK]

@ FSK You dropped Link?

I dropped him as a main a few weeks ago and been focusing more on Falcon, Luigi and Ganondorf. He'll probably stay as a secondary or something.

 

[ZSaberLink]

After DLing the patch and trying it out myself, I realize it's not going to affect my playstyle as much. Honestly maybe I'm too much of a scrub, but using Jab 2 to combo doesn't seem too bad? It's not as good as Jab 1, but it's still there. DThrow seems a LOT easier to combo. I'm able to get about 3 grabs on Mario in training w/o him touching the ground even (Grab, DThrow, BAir, Grab out of air, repeat).

 

[MintyGuy700]

After DLing the patch and trying it out myself, I realize it's not going to affect my playstyle as much. Honestly maybe I'm too much of a scrub, but using Jab 2 to combo doesn't seem too bad? It's not as good as Jab 1, but it's still there. DThrow seems a LOT easier to combo. I'm able to get about 3 grabs on Mario in training w/o him touching the ground even (Grab, DThrow, BAir, Grab out of air, repeat).

Isn't terrible, but it's still less reliable and is a heavier commitment.

 

[smokebomb12]

So even though link was nerfed and his KO potential is gone I believe that this can make us better players since we now have less to work with and can improve our game and really help us stratigize a bit more. So we need to discuss strategys more if we are going to keep members and keep link in strong places!

 

[ZSaberLink]

Isn't terrible, but it's still less reliable and is a heavier commitment.

This sounds much more what actually happened as opposed to "Link is now the worst character in the game". I'm not happy with the change, but just like the guy from the Ike boards and Greninja mains dealt w/ in 1.0.4, we'll figure it out =).

So even though link was nerfed and his KO potential is gone I believe that this can make us better players since we now have less to work with and can improve our game and really help us stratigize a bit more. So we need to discuss strategys more if we are going to keep members and keep link in strong places!

KO potential is gone? Whoa whoa.... it might be harder to land these attacks, but Link still has pretty much all his tilts and all of his Smashes (UTilt, FTilt, USmash, DSmash & FSmash 1 & 2, UAir (Tipper), and DAir to an extent).

Also the Bomb FTilt affects everyone, as it was a general "if you're holding an item, you can no longer Ftilt".

 

[Darklink401]

Just gotta use bomb cancelling more to deal with the fact Link has kill options, but they all require commitment.

 

[smokebomb12]

This sounds much more what actually happened as opposed to "Link is now the worst character in the game". I'm not happy with the change, but just like the guy from the Ike boards and Greninja mains dealt w/ in 1.0.4, we'll figure it out =).


KO potential is gone? Whoa whoa.... it might be harder to land these attacks, but Link still has pretty much all his tilts and all of his Smashes (UTilt, FTilt, USmash, DSmash & FSmash 1 & 2)

Well thats what made link a boss he could kill at early percents i not saying he cannot kill early.

 

[MintyGuy700]

This sounds much more what actually happened as opposed to "Link is now the worst character in the game". I'm not happy with the change, but just like the guy from the Ike boards and Greninja mains dealt w/ in 1.0.4, we'll figure it out =).


KO potential is gone? Whoa whoa.... it might be harder to land these attacks, but Link still has pretty much all his tilts and all of his Smashes (UTilt, FTilt, USmash, DSmash & FSmash 1 & 2)

Welp, we should at least make our complaint loud, we have a higher chance of getting buffed that way. :/

 

[Rizen]

UAir (Tipper),

For accuracy, Uair has no tipper and gets the same results anywhere on the blade. The first 3 frames of attack (11-13) do more damage than the rest so that might be what you were thinking of.

 

[Huggles828]

Link does seem to be a bit stronger now, especially his uair, upb, and smashes (I killed at like 45% on Villager with both hits of fsmash off the side of Delfino), but the problem is jab 1 WAS Link's CQC game, we have to play much more defensively now and have no safe options or good gtfo moves once opponents get in, like the Brawl days. The extra strength matters little if we have no way to set it up barring a sloppy approach or a heavy read. I'm already looking forward to the next balance update in the desperate, but unlikely, hope that they fix this.

It is a little ironic to me that this update essentially makes Link what the scrubs always complained he was; a cheap camper who spams projectiles and runs away and spams smash attacks.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Stop all this crying about Link's jab, people. After all, we still have meteor bombs if you want free kill conversions with pretty much no risk. Aren't situations like these the reason we have custom moves in the first place? But to be honest, I'm getting the hang of double jabbing. After a bit of conditioning with Link's triple jab, if someone tries to shield after the second jab, just grab them. So no, Link's jab isn't terrible now by any means, either lol.

 

[MintyGuy700]

Link does seem to be a bit stronger now, especially his uair, upb, and smashes (I killed at like 45% on Villager with both hits of fsmash off the side of Delfino), but the problem is jab 1 WAS Link's CQC game, we have to play much more defensively now and have no safe options or good gtfo moves once opponents get in, like the Brawl days. The extra strength matters little if we have no way to set it up barring a sloppy approach or a heavy read. I'm already looking forward to the next balance update in the desperate, but unlikely, hope that they fix this.

It is a little ironic to me that this update essentially makes Link what the scrubs always complained he was; a cheap camper who spams projectiles and runs away and spams smash attacks.

Maybe that's what Sakurai wants. :/

Stop all this crying about Link's jab, people. After all, we still have meteor bombs if you want free kill conversions with pretty much no risk. Aren't situations like these the reason we have custom moves in the first place? But to be honest, I'm getting the hang of double jabbing. After a bit of conditioning with Link's triple jab, if someone tries to shield after the second jab, just grab them. So no, Link's jab isn't terrible now by any means, either lol.

This is correct, if you completely ignore how much more commitment is needed, Link was able to not have to commit heavily with one jab, but now having to do two is more of a commitment.

Also, meteor bombs are irrelevant as they were also better with single jab cancel. Plus, most TOs hate customs anyways, it's not like Link will actually have realistic tournament results outside of experimental custom ones.

 

[Rizen]

@ MintyGuy700 use the edit button instead of double posting next time.

Link does seem to be a bit stronger now, especially his smashes (I killed at like 20% on Villager with both hits of fsmash off the side of Delfino), but the problem is jab 1 WAS Link's CQC game, we have to play much more defensively now and have no safe options once opponents get in, like the Brawl days. The extra strength matters little if we have no way to set it up barring a sloppy approach or a heavy read. I'm already looking forward to the next balance update in the desperate, but unlikely, hope that they fix this.

It is a little ironic to me that this update essentially makes Link what the scrubs always complained he was; a cheap camper who spams projectiles and runs away and spams smash attacks.

We can use bombs up close, which is big. I think bombs will become Link's kill setups. Link's rolls are much safer than Brawl, although still punishable, so he has a way to reset he didn't before. He still has arrow locks and can chain attacks (although not as good as true combos) like FF sour Nair>Dsmash, Dthrow>Usmash etc, jab2> whatever, Zair>jab/Dsmash, Bair>UpB, bombs>many things, and hitstun is increased so Utilt/Usmash>jump Uair is easier to get from reads.
When jabbing Link needs to space from the tip of the attack, like he should anyway. It has good reach. Shielding/shield grab isn't as strong as it was in brawl and chain grabs are gone.

I think Link is still much better off than he was in Brawl. We need to stop looking at jab 1's loss of IASA as the end of Link.

 

[DarkDeity15]

This is correct, if you completely ignore how much more commitment is needed, Link was able to not have to commit heavily with one jab, but now having to do two is more of a commitment.

Also, meteor bombs are irrelevant as they were also better with single jab cancel. Plus, most TOs hate customs anyways, it's not like Link will actually have realistic tournament results outside of experimental custom ones.

Twice as much. It's no big deal to me. I personally can get over jab 1 cancel's removal pretty easily because I can do just fine without them while still being able to play aggressively. There are other ways Link can land kills without jab canceling in case you weren't aware.

They do, actually. Why then are we having all these huge tournaments supporting customs?

Edit: Link is still good as hell in this game, people. Just look at how much he can do even without jab 1 cancels.

 

[FSK]

Link has been low/bottom tier for 16 years now, welcome to the next 4

 

[Huggles828]

Well, he's not done in the sense he was barely on the fringe of tourney relevance to begin with (realistically no better than mid tier), but this will definitely push him down, likely into low tier. He still has options, but this really hurts him. And the jab thing isn't necessarily just on shield; it makes it much more unsafe in general. I would throw out jab 1's a lot and then react to the situation; follow up, run away, etc. It forced a reaction from an opponent. Now you're locked into jab 2 or heavy end lag so you can't react and you're very predictable. Jab 2 doesn't follow up as well as jab 1 into things because it pushes opponents farther back; not that it's worthless, but it's much less reliable than jab 1's comboability was. He's still better than Brawl or 64 Link, but it's debatable now whether this is the best iteration of Link any more (Melee Link may have him beat now). I will agree about the bomb statement though; been using downward bomb throw to uair a lot more lately. Bomb combos will likely have to become our main kill setups.

 

[MintyGuy700]

Twice as much. It's no big deal to me. I personally can get over jab 1 cancel's removal pretty easily because I can do just fine without them while still being able to play aggressively. There are other ways Link can land kills without jab canceling in case you weren't aware.

They do, actually. Why then are we having all these huge tournaments supporting customs?

The ability to not commit to something so hard is what makes top tier so good in this game, double jab is objectively worse than single jab, characters like Marth are ranked so low because they require so much commitment.

Also, besides EVO, (who are experimenting) and Xanadu ocasionally, (who are also experimenting) what tournaments have allowed customs openly? I've seen none. Not to mention over 85% of the people I've played on Anther's Ladder gave me a stern "no" when asked whether or not customs should be turned on…

 

[DarkDeity15]

The ability to not commit to something so hard is what makes top tier so good in this game, double jab is objectively worse than single jab, characters like Marth are ranked so low because they require so much commitment.

Also, besides EVO, (who are experimenting) and Xanadu ocasionally, (who are also experimenting) what tournaments have allowed customs openly? I've seen none. Not to mention over 85% of the people I've played on Anther's Ladder give me a strict "no" when asked whether or not customs should be turned on…

How does it matter at all if they're "experimenting"? They're still willing to give them a chance, and that's all that matters. Stop being so pessimistic.

 

[MintyGuy700]

@ DarkDeity15 Sorry, maybe I'm just tired or something. In all seriousness, I feel too little of tournaments are using them/the general audience preferring them off, that customs will not be a redeeming factor of Link.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Well, he's not done in the sense he was barely on the fringe of tourney relevance to begin with (realistically no better than mid tier), but this will definitely push him down, likely into low tier. He still has options, but this really hurts him. And the jab thing isn't necessarily just on shield; it makes it much more unsafe in general. I would throw out jab 1's a lot and then react to the situation; follow up, run away, etc. It forced a reaction from an opponent. Now you're locked into jab 2 or heavy end lag so you can't react and you're very predictable. Jab 2 doesn't follow up as well as jab 1 into things because it pushes opponents farther back; not that it's worthless, but it's much less reliable than jab 1's comboability was. He's still better than Brawl or 64 Link, but it's debatable now whether this is the best iteration of Link any more (Melee Link may have him beat now). I will agree about the bomb statement though; been using downward bomb throw to uair a lot more lately. Bomb combos will likely have to become our main kill setups.

You can't be serious. You're really considering that Sm4sh Link isn't the best iteration of Link in the series over one negative change? Melee Link is garbage when compared to this iteration. It should be clear to anyone by now.

But yes to the bomb kill setups. I've been relying on them for kills just as much as I was relying on jab cancels. I don't mind this at all.

 

[cardboardowl]

The ability to not commit to something so hard is what makes top tier so good in this game, double jab is objectively worse than single jab, characters like Marth are ranked so low because they require so much commitment.

Also, besides EVO, (who are experimenting) and Xanadu ocasionally, (who are also experimenting) what tournaments have allowed customs openly? I've seen none. Not to mention over 85% of the people I've played on Anther's Ladder gave me a stern "no" when asked whether or not customs should be turned on…

I feel like you don't even want to play link anymore

******** about the loss of jab 1 isn't gonna make you a better link player

 

[MintyGuy700]

I feel like you don't even want to play link anymore

*****ing about the loss of jab 1 isn't gonna make you a better link player

What do those topics have to do with what we were just talking about? (Of course besides Jab 1).

 

[cardboardowl]

What do those topics have to do with what we were just talking about? (Of course besides Jab 1).

We should be attempting to be productive to cover the ground we lost, not whining

 

[MintyGuy700]

We should be attempting to be productive to cover the ground we lost, not whining

Solution: Double jab.

That's already been established, the debate was whether or not this is as good.

EDIT: and his other nerfs we just have to deal with.

 

[Huggles828]

You can't be serious. You're really considering that Sm4sh Link isn't the best iteration of Link in the series over one negative change? Melee Link is garbage when compared to this iteration. It should be clear to anyone by now.

But yes to the bomb kill setups. I've been relying on them for kills just as much as I was relying on jab cancels. I don't mind this at all.

Yes I am. Melee Link is a solid low tier character; this likely pushes Smash4 Link into low tier territory, and it's now debatable which is the better iteration. One negative change can completely change the meta for a character. Removing Diddy's hoo hah no longer makes him broken in the eyes of many right? Why can't a big negative change to Link drop him from borderline usable to not tourney viable? What if Sonic theoretically got a few buffs but for some reason they changed his running speed to be the same as Ganon's? That'd be a single negative change that would likely ruin him due to his huge loss of followups. Imagine how drastically different Brawl Dedede would be if they had patched out his chain grab?

If you're not thinking this is a major nerf, you clearly aren't using Link or his jab right. His CQC meta is tied to this move, and removing it drastically changes how he's played. Not saying he's bottom tier now but he's definitely much worse off now for it.



On a happier note, I got a platinum reward for Club Nintendo. What do you guys think? Donkey Kong Tropical Freeze or New Mario Bros 2?

 

[cardboardowl]

Solution: Double jab.

That's already been established, the debate was whether or not this is as good.

its not debatable that it's worse, we already know it is, but its what we got.

Personally i played for a couple hours tonight with my crew and the only matchup it really made harder was against pikachu

The biggest part is retraining my muscle memory. This isn't as catastrophic as people are saying.

 

[PKBeam]

did link even get any other significant nerfs besides loss of item fsmashing?

 

[DarkDeity15]

I honestly find it funny whenever someone says that Link is bottom tier in this game. Even now, Link has the necessary tools to be a very good character. I have no idea why you guys are choosing to downplay Link when you should be doing the exact opposite.

 

[Vonzar the Soulrender]

Just gonna say this now to get it out of the way. If you're still optimistic after the loss of the jab1 cancel, you are a scrub. Either that or too inexperienced in competitive gaming to know any better.

 

[Catana]

So even though link was nerfed and his KO potential is gone I believe that this can make us better players since we now have less to work with and can improve our game and really help us stratigize a bit more. So we need to discuss strategys more if we are going to keep members and keep link in strong places!

idiot

Stop all this crying about Link's jab, people. After all, we still have meteor bombs if you want free kill conversions with pretty much no risk. Aren't situations like these the reason we have custom moves in the first place? But to be honest, I'm getting the hang of double jabbing. After a bit of conditioning with Link's triple jab, if someone tries to shield after the second jab, just grab them. So no, Link's jab isn't terrible now by any means, either lol.

idiot

This is correct, if you completely ignore how much more commitment is needed, Link was able to not have to commit heavily with one jab, but now having to do two is more of a commitment.

Also, meteor bombs are irrelevant as they were also better with single jab cancel. Plus, most TOs hate customs anyways, it's not like Link will actually have realistic tournament results outside of experimental custom ones.

you're lucky im too tired to properly flame your terrible double post now, and you're also an idiot


time to main MK

 

[cardboardowl]

Just gonna say this now to get it out of the way. If you're still optimistic after the loss of the jab1 cancel, you are a scrub. Either that or too inexperienced in competitive gaming to know any better.

i'll be sure to keep you guys up to date on my tourny performance in texas

 

[FSK]

i'll be sure to keep you guys up to date on my tourny performance in texas

What has been stopping you so far from reporting your performance?

 

[DarkDeity15]

Just gonna say this now to get it out of the way. If you're still optimistic after the loss of the jab1 cancel, you are a scrub. Either that or too inexperienced in competitive gaming to know any better.

I've been around the boards for years now and have even contributed to the Link boards. I have years of experience with competitive smash, but I'm still optimistic after this nerf. So what does that make me? Stop trying to be a jackass.

 

[cardboardowl]

What has been stopping you so far from reporting your performance?

I didn't feel like i had to prove link was good

 

[FSK]

I didn't feel like i had to prove link was good

lawl

 

[DarkDeity15]

I didn't feel like i had to prove link was good

Well now you do. More than ever, apparently.

 

[cardboardowl]

Well now you do. More than ever, apparently.

Got an Austin tourney this saturday and tgc the following week and a local the sunday after so hopefully I'm in point.

 

[DarkDeity15]

Got an Austin tourney this saturday and tgc the following week and a local the sunday after so hopefully I'm in point.

Sounds like an awesome chance, dude. Do me a favor and kick some Diddy azz. Good luck.

 

[Rizen]

@ Huggles828 DKC Tropical Freeze.
Tiers is a bad way to look at how good a character is in different games. SSB4 has less of a gap between tiers than previous SSbs. I stuck with Link through Brawl and I'll stick with him through this. Jab 1's loss of IASA frames seriously sucks though, don't get me wrong.