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LGBT Smashers

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Ryusuta

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Orion, have you ever been in a long lasting relationship with someone you loved, then been dumped?
I'm going to just go ahead and throw a guess out here, and correct me if I'm way off base:

My perspective on this situation doesn't mesh with your own, so the way you explain it to yourself and to others is to hope that I'm less experienced in the matter and chalk off my perspective as a matter of ignorance?

With respect, it's a lot less difficult to truly consider a new perspective than it is to say "Ah, he doesn't know what he's talking about... no need to look further into this."

To answer your question, I'm 25 years old, and I've known for at LEAST 10 of those years that relationships can end in heartbreak. If one were cynical about it, they could say that they WILL end in heartbreak, since everyone either breaks up or dies.

What I'm offering you is something BEYOND that. Something that's more practical, more emotionally satisfying. I'm offering the basic knowledge that relationships are what you make of them; nothing more, nothing less.
 

1048576

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This is wrong. Humans are, like every other animal, naturally bisexual. <_<

It's the (mainly Western) society that makes such a big deal out of homosexual interactions.
Even better. Just goes to show that what occurs naturally in general isn't what always occurs for everyone.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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so let's all form polygamous relationships. It's share and share alike right? I mean nobody would start to get a bit greedy and want more of one person than the others wanted to give, and no-one would get jealous of such time and allow bitterness to fester. That's why the "everything for everyone" mentality of Communism tends to pan out so well right?

Even if they make sense from a theoretical perspective, sir Orion, the reality of it is, such practices would be doomed to failure. That's the deal with human nature. And you can't even try to use other examples in the animal kingdom to try to back up your claims because it is the very aspect which separates us from the "lower creatures" of the world (our human nature) which is causing the problem.

It is utterly impossible to love more than one somebody completely and totally. Complete love is just that: undivided. The best you could give someone in a polygamous relationship is a fraction of that love. Maybe that's enough for you, but there's a LARGE LARGE chunk of the population that simply could not settle for that. Sharing doesn't work. It should, but it doesn't; greed is a powerful influence.

Accuse me of the pardoner's prejudice if you will, but I stand by my realistic, albeit cynical assertion.
 

Ryusuta

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Even if they make sense from a theoretical perspective, sir Orion, the reality of it is, such practices would be doomed to failure.
Actually, that's the farthest thing from the truth. Many societies in history have practiced polygamy to great success.

Think that's just because it was ancient times so humans were somehow different then? Wrong. Polygamy is still practiced in several modern societies to this day.

I know we have a very western perspective on things, and as such we believe that perspective to be "civilized" and all contrasting ideas to be "barbaric." Because of this, it's difficult for me to try and set these things into perspective without someone inevitably looking past the points of debate and at the person that's saying them. But historical, sociological, and biological evidence all points in FAVOR of multiple lovers, not against it.

Don't take my word for it, please. Read up on the nature of mammalian species. Google polygamous societies in today's world. Do studies on the psychological imperatives of society. This isn't stuff I'm just making up as I go along. I certainly don't want you to just believe what I'm saying just because I'm saying them. I'm not apt to hang out my shingle and claim to state things without some basis for knowledge. Polygamy isn't "doomed to failure" any more than monogamy is. Relationships are all individual and unique. That's the main, all-encompassing point I was originally making.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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Actually, that's the farthest thing from the truth. Many societies in history have practiced polygamy to great success.

Think that's just because it was ancient times so humans were somehow different then? Wrong. Polygamy is still practiced in several modern societies to this day.
Really only Polygyny (one man, multiple women). Any other version has never really worked and in the grand majority of, if not all of those instances of polygyny, the woman is held as somehow fundamentally inferior to the male. So it only makes sense that polygyny may develop. If we are going to treat the woman as "stuff" then it only makes sense to want the most "stuff". Polyandry (the opposite) is only practiced in a couple far east countries where the two men tend to be brothers and the environmental resources are scarce. Group marriage (multiple men AND women... which is essentially what you are proposing) has never worked ever and has only been practiced in places such as hippie communes.

I know we have a very western perspective on things, and as such we believe that perspective to be "civilized" and all contrasting ideas to be "barbaric." Because of this, it's difficult for me to try and set these things into perspective without someone inevitably looking past the points of debate and at the person that's saying them. But historical, sociological, and biological evidence all points in FAVOR of multiple lovers, not against it.
biological support maybe, but not psychological. group marriages have NEVER been favoured and polyandry only in very specific circumstances. Polygyny only occurs when women are treated as less than men.

Don't take my word for it, please. Read up on the nature of mammalian species. Google polygamous societies in today's world. Do studies on the psychological imperatives of society. This isn't stuff I'm just making up as I go along. I'm not apt to hang out my shingle and claim to state things without some basis for knowledge. Polygamy isn't "doomed to failure" any more than monogamy is. Relationships are all individual and unique. That's the main, all-encompassing point I was originally making.
A question that many of my classmates failed to get correct in class was this "So, the cancer cells in all of the rodent studies seemed to react in a positive manner to the treatment, so why didn't the human cancer cells react the same way?" The answer was quite simple to me, and anyone else who didn't overthink the question: Humans aren't rats.

Much the same, human's aren't wild animals. ESPECIALLY with respect to psychological drives. Human's are capable of higher level processing and other mamals only base instincts. (I mentioned this before, but we'll reiterate it since it went right over center field it appears). Animals are acting in the manner that's most bilogically sound for them: one male mouse can impregnate hundreds of female mice. Never mind the fact that other mammals don't mate for life, nor does mating involve buying a house, raising children, working a job to feed the family... I really don't see how you could attempt to draw any sort of an analogy here.
 

Ryusuta

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Really only Polygyny (one man, multiple women). Any other version has never really worked and in the grand majority of, if not all of those instances of polygyny, the woman is held as somehow fundamentally inferior to the male. So it only makes sense that polygyny may develop. If we are going to treat the woman as "stuff" then it only makes sense to want the most "stuff". Polyandry (the opposite) is only practiced in a couple far east countries where the two men tend to be brothers and the environmental resources are scarce. Group marriage (multiple men AND women... which is essentially what you are proposing) has never worked ever and has only been practiced in places such as hippie communes.
I was trying to do this without using gender bias, but I will claim that this much is true. Men have a greater biological tendency to seek multiple mates than women do. My point, however, was that you claimed that polygamy is doomed to failure, and this is observably false.

You also made another assumption, there: "Polygamy is most commonly practiced in male-dominated societies; therefore, it is the only type of society in which polygamy can flourish." You're begging the question.

biological support maybe, but not psychological. group marriages have NEVER been favoured and polyandry only in very specific circumstances. Polygyny only occurs when women are treated as less than men.
Again, this is false. Open marriages and relationships have a greater mechanism for allowing its members to function sociologically, for reasons I've outlined earlier.

A question that many of my classmates failed to get correct in class was this "So, the cancer cells in all of the rodent studies seemed to react in a positive manner to the treatment, so why didn't the human cancer cells react the same way?" The answer was quite simple to me, and anyone else who didn't overthink the question: Humans aren't rats.
It's easy for us to look at ourselves as "above" other mammals, and even our own baser instincts when we say things like "We're civilized. We're intelligent creatures. We're not animals."

But we ARE animals. Unbelievably intelligent animals, yes, but animals nonetheless. Whether we choose to admit this or not, we DO have baser instincts, and to shut them off would be to LITERALLY kill ourselves. After all, we have an instinct to eat. We have an instinct to find shelter. We have an instinct to gather into a society and support each other. ALL of those things we share with rats, the creatures we're so "different" from. We're not "above" our own sexual nature. We just try to put a shiny, pretty coat on it to mask what it really is - an instinct to get together and copulate, so we can multiply as a species and not go extinct. Anything beyond that is just the icing on the cake.

I'll add in another thought here, too. It's funny you mention that humans aren't rats. Do you know why rats are used in so many biological and medical experiments? Because they're so similar to humans on a biological level. Think about it.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I'm a pharmacist sir. I'm currently doing research as well so I know very much about mice and other rodent analogs and, do you know what? they often react completely differently than humans. Besides, the major reason it's rats and rabbits and not chimps. is because how cost, space and how quickly rodents reproduce. And they NEVER require blinding because they don't have that massive psychological factor that throws a wrench in so many human studies... wow "kinda similar biologically but COMPLETELY NOT EVEN CLOSE PSYCHOLOGICALLY"... that seems so similar to something we were just talking about...
This is getting farther off track than any of the religion conversations ever did, so I really don't want to continue with this so as to clutter up the thread and discourage the conversation it was meant for.

So, rather than respond to every point individually, I'll finish with this thought:
You've "outlined your reasons about why group marriage should work" And you've cited animals as examples (examples that are in no way analogous, but examples nonetheless). You are missing a quod erat demonstrandum. Everything you say is based off of what you can see in non-human animals, non-egalitarian cultures and your personal thoughts of how things might work. But it just doesn't happen and, as is often the case, what you think should be is not necessarily how things wil be. There's no real world support for what you say: it's all theory-craft based on artificial analogs.

p.s. don't bother trying to take the debate to PM either. these points were presented early and you never satisfactorilly dealt with them, instead you kinda sidestepped them and went right back into using arguments already rendered unproductive. I noticed, so I'm not to keen on following up with this style of "debate" if that's what you could call that.




BACK TO THE GAY


so the news about Iowa.... how about that?

it's a step towards making these mps more friendly:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_homosexuality_laws.svg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Samesex_marriage_in_USA.svg
 

Ryusuta

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I like it when people say "This argument is getting too irrelevant, let's not continue it anymore!"

And then they can't resist getting one last thought in so they can have the last word on the subject without someone contradicting it.

Way to play the game, man. :ohwell:
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I like it when people say "This argument is getting too irrelevant, let's not continue it anymore!"

And then they can't resist getting one last thought in so they can have the last word on the subject without someone contradicting it.

Way to play the game, man. :ohwell:
my last word was the same "word" I'd been repeating for the past few "words." The fact that the argument was not going anywhere and was getting far away from the point was why I felt like stopping it. not because I was remotely scared I was losing said argument. My "Last word" was me hoping that you would be able to take that comment in a mature fashion that, when you are just plain not in posession of any information to support your side of an argument over another, and that you are avoiding anything you can't answer by repaeating the same irrelivancies, that's high time to stop a debate. You can't win it. But internet "debates" have never had that same level of scholarly understanding as those held in an actual debating forum, so I should have expected little more before I decided to take the other side of the argument. My fault I suppose. Maybe eventually I'll learn to stop getting bitten.

If that satisfies your little cut at the contradiction of my motives then we can be finished. And even if not, I can only see this getting worse, so it should stop anyway.

The original point was Desu..... right?

anyway, no matter which way you slice it, Desu doesn't want an open relationship of any sort and that's what he's being treated to. But he's boy seems to expect that, so you can't really hate him... you just have to aknowledge that you don't want the same things at this juncture and move on. You could stay with him, but you'd likely just get hurt if you don't change your outlook, because he's not likely to change his ways.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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I would have never figured Iowa to be one of the few states to make a legal same-sex anything, much less full out marriage. It might not affect us YET, but it's a stepping stone.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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poor stupid Ohio... we're flanked by states who at least have civil-unions... but we don't have even that.
 

Smooth Criminal

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I'm going to just go ahead and throw a guess out here, and correct me if I'm way off base:

My perspective on this situation doesn't mesh with your own, so the way you explain it to yourself and to others is to hope that I'm less experienced in the matter and chalk off my perspective as a matter of ignorance?

With respect, it's a lot less difficult to truly consider a new perspective than it is to say "Ah, he doesn't know what he's talking about... no need to look further into this."

To answer your question, I'm 25 years old, and I've known for at LEAST 10 of those years that relationships can end in heartbreak. If one were cynical about it, they could say that they WILL end in heartbreak, since everyone either breaks up or dies.

What I'm offering you is something BEYOND that. Something that's more practical, more emotionally satisfying. I'm offering the basic knowledge that relationships are what you make of them; nothing more, nothing less.
Oh. Okay. So you haven't been in a serious relationship. Or you're just dodging the question. Why not just answer "yes or no?"

And judging from the last paragraph, it sounds to me like you're offering a masochistic and unnecessary gauntlet. While it's nice to be philosophical and run through a virtual gamut of possibility, it's not very practical when your feelings are on the line. This is especially true if there's a pretty good chance that the person or the nature of the relationship WILL NOT CHANGE FOR THE BETTER.

You should not have to rewrite who you are to accommodate someone else's needs, either.

Smooth Criminal
 

1048576

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It helps, 'specially when communicating with earthlings like me. Makes you seem less ethereal.

Smooth Criminal
It was kind of obvious...

Also, good for Iowa, and good for us. The march of history is steady toward progressivism, but I was certain it would take a lot longer than this. Still a long way to go, though.
 

Daysoo

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To everyone who has voiced there thoughts on my situation: Thank you.
Really, sincerely, thank you.
I'm going to see him again on Monday.
I think I'm probably going to break up with him.
He himself told me that he feels that I have emotional needs that he can't meet.
He also told me that he has these feelings that I can't have for other people.
I'd still like to be friends with him if at all possible.
I just don't think I can date him any more.

*sigh*
 

Red Arremer

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Hey, Desu. =)

It's good to hear you've come to a decision, and from the perspective I see it and the information I have about your situation, I'm pretty sure it was the right one. I'm also sure he will understand it, as well, especially since he himself stated that he can't make you happy.

I'm aware that you don't know me, but if you ever need someone to talk to - and don't want to post in here or something - feel free to shoot me a PM or so, ok?
 

Ryusuta

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That goes for me, too. In spite of my philosophical ramblings earlier on, I want to stress that I understand the pain you're going through and want to do everything I can to help you work through it. If there's anything I can do to help in my distant position, don't ever hesitate to ask.
 

illinialex24

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Cali will probably re-legalize it before any other state legalizes it for the first time.
Doubt it, they'd have to pass a constitutional amendment revoking the first one and saying gay marriage is allowed. However, we saw that the last one was put down because of the high voter turnout causing many African Americans to reject it. And if they keep coming, you are going to have to show African Americans that being gay is born, and not a choice to gain some acceptance because they are the major hurdle.

And I'm straight btw.
 

Metatitan

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actually i live in california and we're probly gonna legalize it. about 95% of the kids in our high schools want it legalized, as soon as those kids turn 18 they contribute a major part to it
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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actually i live in california and we're probly gonna legalize it. about 95% of the kids in our high schools want it legalized, as soon as those kids turn 18 they contribute a major part to it
assuming voter turnout is good eh?

I'm hopeful it's going to be revoked, but the youth alone is not a convincing reason.
 

Xsyven

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The young demographic was all for legalizing gay marriage, yet most of them don't bother to go out and actually vote.

Old people, who have nothing better to do but vote, all took their time to say no. I think the biggest contribution will be waiting for all the old people to die. ;)
 

DtJ Jungle

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LOL

but thats truth, old ideas just need to...die with those that hold them
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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to quote "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" because it seems à propos:

"...You tell me what rights I've got or haven't got, ...You don't even know what I am ... you don't know who I am. You don't know how I feel, what I think. And if I tried to explain it the rest of your life you will never understand. You are 30 years older than I am. You and your whole lousy generation believes the way it was for you is the way it's got to be. And not until your whole generation has lain down and died will the dead weight of you be off our backs! You understand, you've got to get off my back!"


course some of them are older than 30 years older than me, but w/e... seems appropriate.
 

Circus

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to quote "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" because it seems à propos:
Gosh, 'Dawg, you're so ****ing fancy. I imagine you sipping tea with your pinky out and listening to smooth jazz.

But it is kind of interesting how society as a whole tends to get more liberal as time goes on. At least, on social matters. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of social stigmas we hold over certain things now that the generations after us will find deplorable.
 

1048576

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Listen to you people, talking favorably about the death of an entire demographic...


I like.


Additionally: I've always wondered why society hates drugs, prostitution, and bestiality. IMO, if something makes you happy and doesn't directly affect the happiness of others, you should be allowed to do it. As long as you don't mind the tradeoff of living in a cardboard box, I'd make sure you could do all the hard drugs and hookers you could want without facing judicial consequences. I also don't get why we reserve clean suicide for the physically ill. IMO, being mentally ill is a much worse experience, and it is also not curable in some cases.

Furthermore, I don't get why we care so much more about physical pain than mental/emotional pain. I think that if you call me a fat ***, I should be legally allowed to sit on you for two minutes.

That was sort of off topic, but yeah, IMO society is way too conservative, but history has shown a steady march toward progressivism. We'll be accepted eventually (prolly the only thing I'veever been optimistic about); the only question is whether or not we will get to enjoy equal rights and freedoms in our lifetime. Frankly, I'm not holding my breath.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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*ignoring the comparison of homosexuality to drugs, prostitution and beastiality...*

Gosh, 'Dawg, you're so ****ing fancy. I imagine you sipping tea with your pinky out and listening to smooth jazz.

But it is kind of interesting how society as a whole tends to get more liberal as time goes on. At least, on social matters. Kind of makes you wonder what kind of social stigmas we hold over certain things now that the generations after us will find deplorable.
thanks Grahaem (am I spelling that right? I know your name's Graham with a funky spelling >_<). I'd like to think I've got a bit more culture than the average person... and I DO drink hot tea pretty much daily... and normally my pinky is extended (though not in the snooty "LOOK AT MY PINKY EXTENSION" fashion.) And smooth jazz is acceptable if the time is right, but you'll normally find me listening to Latin or Dance music.

The irony is, at least with me, Old people freaking love me. grandparents, patients, people I've met in the nursing home, random old ladies in the street/on the beach have made it a personal note to let me know how good an impresion I've left with them. And, yet, I know how hypocritical it is for at least half of them because, if they knew I was gay, they'd about face and condemn me to Hell right away :laugh:. But c'est le vie no?
 

1048576

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Well, if you told them, you'd be like Jesus, sacrificing yourself to make the world a little better off. Maybe they'd tell their descendants the error of their judgmental lifestyle.
 

KirbyKaze

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To everyone who has voiced there thoughts on my situation: Thank you.
Really, sincerely, thank you.
I'm going to see him again on Monday.
I think I'm probably going to break up with him.
He himself told me that he feels that I have emotional needs that he can't meet.
He also told me that he has these feelings that I can't have for other people.
I'd still like to be friends with him if at all possible.
I just don't think I can date him any more.

*sigh*
Dump that zero and get yourself a hero, honey.

*finger snaps*

...

*cough*

I kid. I don't mean that. He sounds okay, just not the type of person you should be seeing. I hope the breakup goes well and that you two can stay friends, if that's what you want (your post says you want it).
 

Daysoo

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So I didn't break up with him.
We talked and worked things out, cleared up a lot of misunderstandings that we had.
I also got him to agree to the monogamy thing for a while longer, at least.
Things are looking up, for the moment.
Hopefully these decisions won't come back to bite me. @_@;
 

Ryusuta

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So I didn't break up with him.
We talked and worked things out, cleared up a lot of misunderstandings that we had.
I also got him to agree to the monogamy thing for a while longer, at least.
Things are looking up, for the moment.
Hopefully these decisions won't come back to bite me. @_@;
It might. It might not. Only time can say for sure, and it speaks at its own pace.

The important thing to bear in mind is this: no matter what comes of this, don't regret it. Whatever decisions you make in life, and whatever the ramifications of those decisions come to pass, don't regret living and loving for a second. This is the most important piece of advice I have to give.

I wish you the very best; I truly do. A would imagine that some naysayers could (and might) say that this is all a mistake; that you're just setting yourself up for disaster. And for all I know, they might be right for saying so. I'm sure the thought has done a little more than cross your mind when you agreed to take him back. I wouldn't begin to have the audacity of making such a brash assumption, myself. If you truly care about each other and want to be together, that will rise to the surface no matter what the circumstances.

Again, I would be hard-pressed to make any predictions about this, but it is promising that he's shown you a willingness to see the relationship become something more. And it's also promising that you heard him out and are willing to work with him for that commitment. Remember those things even if rough times occur down the road. If you part company later on, don't blame yourself or him. Blame only serves to twist the knife. It doesn't mend the wounds that are already there. Believe me, I know from bitter, tragic experience... :(

Above all else, I wish you both only the best and happiest times together, and hope that those times are plentiful. Good luck, Desu.
 

Sonic The Hedgedawg

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So I didn't break up with him.
We talked and worked things out, cleared up a lot of misunderstandings that we had.
I also got him to agree to the monogamy thing for a while longer, at least.
Things are looking up, for the moment.
Hopefully these decisions won't come back to bite me. @_@;
good luck.

I hope he's good to you.
 
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