Jinkwai
Smash Apprentice
I know we pretty much have the advantage, but I wanted to go a little in depth, specifically with Falco.
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Let's talk about Space Animal matchups...
- Thread starter Jinkwai
- Start date
Flamingo
Smash Lord
We ****.
That is all.
On-topic, falco is the toughest.. He CG's us. Go Zelda for the first part of the match... or just don't get grabbed. Crawl under lazerz
PS. I live in Raleigh too dude. Goin to judgement?
That is all.
On-topic, falco is the toughest.. He CG's us. Go Zelda for the first part of the match... or just don't get grabbed. Crawl under lazerz
PS. I live in Raleigh too dude. Goin to judgement?
Voyeur
Smash Journeyman
Falco only hopes to pull off that CG to spike combo and so other then that, once you get the Ftilt-lock it's GG for them, follow up with a Tipper. Their fast fall hurts their game against Sheik, crawling to duck lasers, and predict and space well to avoid shines.
stealth3654
Smash Lord
needles will stop their side B recovery causing them to either: do side B again if they are high enough, side B and grab the ledge, or use their very gimpable up B
Flamingo
Smash Lord
True. But Nair is also effective vs. a side B recovery, and doesn't require a sniper's aim on the diagonal.
Voyeur
Smash Journeyman
also note that during the build up time before their Up-B recovery that you could get in to perform your own Up-B for a possible KO. Vanish glide if the distance is proper.
Flamingo
Smash Lord
Sure, but make sure that you are aiming diagonally+up (toward the stage) Not horizontally towards the stage. They may beat you there, so avoid the suicide.
demodemo
Smash Ace
falco only hopes for a cg? psh no, sheik has tons of trouble approaching against falco's shdl, and before some idiot says it, no you can't outcamp falco. sheik will get shield grabbed at some point since rar'd bair doesnt work with laser pressure
yeah ok, you can crawl against the lasers, but when you get within range falco can just use his reflector, and you're back to square one. not to mention after the CG the spike connects on sheik and falco can kill sheik at like 90%. (with fsmash) rar bair doesnt work here because of the laser pressure, so you are safest approaching with grabs or some funky stuff. (fh aerials, spot dodge dsmash, mindgaeems, whatever)
falco is hard to get inside (he's high tier for a reason guys) but once you do sheik does do well against him. the tilt lock really ***** him, and since he is a fast faller, the decayed ftilt usmash is very viable. even if you mess it up sheik has an excellent edgeguarding game against him. he has to use illusion (or is it phantasm or something?) and illusion can be stopped with a well timed nair. of course a good falco who is smart with his recovery can still work his way around it.
if you somehow manage to force falco to use firebird, its a stock, seriously. i think all of sheiks aerials go through firebird (yeah, even when its moving) notably fair, so go crazy if the opportunity arises.
no, don't use vanish if he uses firebird unless you are going for style points. fair/any other aerial is infinitely times more practical and effective.
of course, you will rarely ever see firebird seeing as how there is no hitstun and falco's second jump is hahahaha.
yeah ok, you can crawl against the lasers, but when you get within range falco can just use his reflector, and you're back to square one. not to mention after the CG the spike connects on sheik and falco can kill sheik at like 90%. (with fsmash) rar bair doesnt work here because of the laser pressure, so you are safest approaching with grabs or some funky stuff. (fh aerials, spot dodge dsmash, mindgaeems, whatever)
falco is hard to get inside (he's high tier for a reason guys) but once you do sheik does do well against him. the tilt lock really ***** him, and since he is a fast faller, the decayed ftilt usmash is very viable. even if you mess it up sheik has an excellent edgeguarding game against him. he has to use illusion (or is it phantasm or something?) and illusion can be stopped with a well timed nair. of course a good falco who is smart with his recovery can still work his way around it.
if you somehow manage to force falco to use firebird, its a stock, seriously. i think all of sheiks aerials go through firebird (yeah, even when its moving) notably fair, so go crazy if the opportunity arises.
no, don't use vanish if he uses firebird unless you are going for style points. fair/any other aerial is infinitely times more practical and effective.
of course, you will rarely ever see firebird seeing as how there is no hitstun and falco's second jump is hahahaha.
Villi
Smash Lord
Yeah, the chain grab is trouble for me. I personally go Zelda until he knocks me away at about 50-60% then boost transform so I'm safeish. I tend to be able to pwn Falcos who wanna chain grab me as Zelda, but after that, they're in camp mode.
lolanimals.
you can confidently gimp them at low percents with shiek/ watch your spacing, and reflects on needles espeacially with falco's reflector.
Falco does out camp sheik with shl pff... with lazer ins general so ban fd and use platforms to help you approach. Your mid range poke game is way better than his because of back air. watch for openings for tilt locks and junk.
tilt lock.
edge gaurd.
win.
you can confidently gimp them at low percents with shiek/ watch your spacing, and reflects on needles espeacially with falco's reflector.
Falco does out camp sheik with shl pff... with lazer ins general so ban fd and use platforms to help you approach. Your mid range poke game is way better than his because of back air. watch for openings for tilt locks and junk.
tilt lock.
edge gaurd.
win.
Canvasofgrey
Smash Ace
Watch out for Falco's lasers. Don't get Chain grabbed, and do your best to use your fastest moves against him in close combat. Pressuring him I believe is ideal when close to the edge, but try to bait him when he stays near the center of the stage.
rinoH
Smash Lord
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
Lol wtf, this isn't Melee where you could discuss combos in this topic, if you want to discuss a character don't make one for three seperate very different characters, make an individual topic for one character, otherwise it'll just devolve into everyone discussing the hardest character i.e. in this case, Falco.
And no, CG to Spike is not the only thing Falco has on Shiek.
And no, CG to Spike is not the only thing Falco has on Shiek.
DarkThundah
Smash Apprentice
Yeah umm this conversation was actually going pretty well, so uh yeah I'm not really sure what you were complaining about...yeah uhh soo blah poopies!
Tristan_win
Not dead.
>> You guys do realize that the chain grab into spike on sheik wont kill sheik unless your stupid right?
and that you can decide to either land on the stage or sweet spot the edge when recovering...right?
and that you can decide to either land on the stage or sweet spot the edge when recovering...right?
Voyeur
Smash Journeyman
hence I said he can only hope to pull it off.
Maybe some one should make an actual full on discussion thread though so we can revamp the outlook and matchup of characters instead of random 1 character specific threads popping up.
demodemo
Smash Ace
uh yes, but the point is the spike works, that is an extra 15% (or whatever)
plus, you are in a defensive situation immediately as you are cornered at the edge with shdl pressure. and we all know how ****ty sheik's returning edge options are.
i don't get what you mean by "hope" to pull it off. falco does not have trouble grabbing sheik.
edit: read over the thread again
no, you can't "bait" falco rofl
your needles getting reflected isn't that big of a problem since falco will be lasering and wont have time to pull it out. from my experience, my needlestorm rarely fires its whole 18% because of the lasers interrupting meh
plus, you are in a defensive situation immediately as you are cornered at the edge with shdl pressure. and we all know how ****ty sheik's returning edge options are.
i don't get what you mean by "hope" to pull it off. falco does not have trouble grabbing sheik.
edit: read over the thread again
no, you can't "bait" falco rofl
your needles getting reflected isn't that big of a problem since falco will be lasering and wont have time to pull it out. from my experience, my needlestorm rarely fires its whole 18% because of the lasers interrupting meh
Voyeur
Smash Journeyman
ok, so if you're higher then that 45-50% mark then falco can't successfully pull off the Chaingrab-to spike combo (if I'm wrong then mmk) So as Sheik you can easily play camping games and space the needles so they die out before being reflected or just eat some lasers before going in and finding the ftilt set up.
And it's not like the spike is impossible to cancel, it doesn't have the same feel as the gimp spikes from Melee ones, it's a meteor mash which you can catch yourself from. Chances of recovery though with UpB is bleak but possible none the less with proper timing.
He can do either versions of his CG to sheik which hurts but there is Zelda and according to the CG of Falco he can't pull it off on Zelda, and it's not like Down-B isn't an option here, so she's probably the more favorably match up that you can use till the time you're at a safer percent to get in a moment's edgewise to turn back into Sheik and follow up with the lock-tipper or what not.
in hindsight of the word 'hope' I meant that it is possible to escape the spike and have a come back at a "safer" %.
And it's not like the spike is impossible to cancel, it doesn't have the same feel as the gimp spikes from Melee ones, it's a meteor mash which you can catch yourself from. Chances of recovery though with UpB is bleak but possible none the less with proper timing.
He can do either versions of his CG to sheik which hurts but there is Zelda and according to the CG of Falco he can't pull it off on Zelda, and it's not like Down-B isn't an option here, so she's probably the more favorably match up that you can use till the time you're at a safer percent to get in a moment's edgewise to turn back into Sheik and follow up with the lock-tipper or what not.
in hindsight of the word 'hope' I meant that it is possible to escape the spike and have a come back at a "safer" %.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
You can SDI the D Air and tech the stage.
Flamingo
Smash Lord
Yeah. I think DI down works to avoid spike, then vanish or chain back. Could be wrong tho.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
No, if you SDI the actual D Air spike then you can hit and tech the stage, no recovery needed.
space with bair?
that 40 damage you could get sucks but sheik won't die from the spike and she can ftilt lock that same amount of damage on him.
spacing bairs makes you very hard to grab and since falco doesn't have fast mid range option you can dance around just outside of his grab range and punish attempts at damage with ftilt bair and fair.
that 40 damage you could get sucks but sheik won't die from the spike and she can ftilt lock that same amount of damage on him.
spacing bairs makes you very hard to grab and since falco doesn't have fast mid range option you can dance around just outside of his grab range and punish attempts at damage with ftilt bair and fair.
Imo, I think out of the spacies the only one that Sheik really puts the **** on is Fox.
Wolf is only about a 6-4 for us. You can't really just expect the tilt lock to produce an auto-win for you because he can space with bair and his laser so well that it can be hard to get inside and his reflector prevents any type of camping on your part.
Falco is probably about as even as Mario is for Sheik. I agree with <3, bair spacing is too good in the Falco matchup. His bair is a freaking monster however and he can space extremely well with his ftilt and of course his infamous SHDL's. Taking Falco to a stage where he doesn't have the chaingrab but we still have the tilt lock might swing this a little into her favor however.
Wolf is only about a 6-4 for us. You can't really just expect the tilt lock to produce an auto-win for you because he can space with bair and his laser so well that it can be hard to get inside and his reflector prevents any type of camping on your part.
Falco is probably about as even as Mario is for Sheik. I agree with <3, bair spacing is too good in the Falco matchup. His bair is a freaking monster however and he can space extremely well with his ftilt and of course his infamous SHDL's. Taking Falco to a stage where he doesn't have the chaingrab but we still have the tilt lock might swing this a little into her favor however.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
What stage would you suggest where Falco 'doesn't have the chaingrab'?
Not necessarily not having it, but stages where it is considerably easier to avoid.
Norfair, most of Rainbow Cruise, I would say Japes but Falco does extremely well there.
Go to Genesis and you got a deal
demodemo
Smash Ace
i couldn't space my bairs against falco. i don't know how you guys are doing it. (don't really care though, haven't played brawl in weeks)
i guess i just suck then. that, or you guys have not played any good falcos.
marsulas is right about the spacies though. i would say matchup against falco is even or slightly in his favour. Matchup against fox is ****. i have never played a wolf before.
i guess i just suck then. that, or you guys have not played any good falcos.
marsulas is right about the spacies though. i would say matchup against falco is even or slightly in his favour. Matchup against fox is ****. i have never played a wolf before.
Flamingo
Smash Lord
I think Fox is still a little difficult... Wolf is easiest for me, Falco in the middle.
KRDsonic
Smash Master
Which way are you supposed to DI when he's chain grabbing you anyways? I usually Smash DI down and away to do my best to avoid the spike, and it works sometimes, other times I feel stupid for doing it, but I live anyways.
< 3
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
**** NJ up Marsulas, he says Falco '***** Sheik'. Then again he also thinks Falco ***** IC because of IAP and laser <_<.
*Edit* I regret this post, it was stupid and inflammatory.
*Edit* I regret this post, it was stupid and inflammatory.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
All the way in England I doubt it I'm afraid. Yes, admittedly that was an exaggeration but you were very simplistic in arguing Falco's matchups. You gave around two sentences describing your controversial opinion and to any attempt at retort you flitted around with elitist comments.
Read my posts again. I'm not going to even bother refuting that.
Again, exaggeration. I only brought up the joke about Canadian smashers (that's it. Some..."elitist" comment"s", rite? lol) and that was after the discussion was already heated.
Looking back at that glorious thread, it's odd how you're saying this (after I've looked through the posts you contributed there). And, you might as well criticize on how much elaboration Mew2King lacked.
If you don't plan on giving me your money or at least carrying a decently intelligent discussion with me, then get off my nutz.
Thanks.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
I won't bother with refuting your points about that thread. We both know exactly what you were doing.
Fine, state your case as to why Falco ***** Sheik, I will happily discuss it.
Let's keep the finger-pointing to a minimum, please.
Flamingo
Smash Lord
Really? Back to Youkai of Boundaries..? Ok, and I would definately like to see why Falco ***** us, and I admit, I haven't fought an extremely good Falco, just please give us the rundown on the facts without pestering BlisteringSpeed. Thx.
That's what I do, I try to avoid the spike... But apparently Blistering thinks getting spiked and teching the stage is safer... idk. I would just like to avoid the spike altogether.
Blistering Speed
Smash Champion
I'm fairly certain the spike is guaranteed, regardless of DI.
Flamingo
Smash Lord
It could be, and yeah if he expected a DI, he could just follow our DI and spike us anyway. You are probably right.