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1) If Sheik is crouching, why does she have to approach? You can't do damage, you have to approach just as much as us.
After the F Tilt Lock, Sheik can kill Falco with a tipper U Smash at like 90%. See how stupid that mentality is? F Smash is **** slow and easily punishable. Are you playing the same game as me, because last time I checked Falco has trouble killing (it's the reason I don't think he deserves 3rd). His most used option is probably a B Air at around 140%. Laser to U Smash doesn't combo and kills at mediocre percents anyway.
All sounding pretty good for Sheik here hmm? How exactly does the Falco 'work around it'?
Yep.
You want that I actually contribute to the Sheik boards by starting with your arguments?
The only time Falco has to actually approach is if he's in a losing state. Otherwise he's effectively keeping you locked down, and if he needs to approach he's got a better positional advantage as a result.
I'm not sure why people would use Falco's Shine for this purpose either, but I suppose it can be a mixup with grabbing and fthrowing to continue the laser camping... or bthrowing if he's at the ledge.
Laser to usmash can combo in very certain situations, but other than that you're kind of right. However, Sheik is light and this isn't Melee, so Falco's usmash is actually rather decent. This part seems for the most part about situationals (yes, ftilt locking to 90% directly into a usmash is situational on Falco), though, so whatever.
The only time I can ever see a Falco doing this is to land on a platform. What the hell kind of whack Falcos are you playing that Phantasm way above the stage?
You must be thinking of Melee, where Phantasm's hitbox was behind Falco and thus the attack could be beaten by anything. This is Brawl, where the Phantasm's hitbox is in front of Falco and if you time it just right you might be able to clash his Phantasm with your dsmash, but otherwise, no, you're not beating Phantasm with anything.
On the other hand, I have little respect for anybody, and I think I've filled my quota of saying anything meaningful in here for the month.
Whether or not I agree with what he said, Ankoku just won this thread.
yeeeeeeeee
falco's reflector has good range, once sheik gets in range she gets pushed back. i think its the best option falco has against a crawling sheik. maybe sheik can power shield it and maybe run in for a grab, but i'm not gonna bother finding out. bottom line is, sheik cannot just crawl up and attack.
fsmash isn't that slow, i guess its punishable but it has pretty good range for its speed. he can predict a roll and land it.
I have personally tried to dsmash against the phantasm, but it never worked for me. i think was timing it wrong but whatever. anyway falco's second jump is really good, and gives him many options when they return to the stage. Honestly i find it really hard to time an attack to hit them when they go for the edge, if you manage to get the chain out or do the falling nair, then more power to you. the falco i played would go to a platform above it, or just simply over me. (if on fd) This is what i meant by overcoming sheik's edgeguarding. Sheik just does not have a single surefire way to edgeguard as you seem to think. Of course, if you know the matchup well enough, you can read or fool the falco, but that's a different story.
No need to bring respect into any discussion around here. Frankly, i care very little for the respect people I meet on the internet have of me, unless i was going to meet them in the future or something. That being said, I do have respect for everybody around here (a little less for some posters) but i don't bring it up since it may contaminate healthy debates.
Oh wow, someone understands why I hate this place.
Forward B is better.
Haha, I was extremely certain that you would reply to his post, especially in a way like that.
It's not like the reflector shuts us down. Your own needles should never hit you. EVER. Needles have a set distance and should be used to where they *poof* before they reach you after reflected.
I also thought that you could crawl under the reflector... I could totally be wrong, I just thought it was a high hit for some reason.
you can not only avoid it by crawling but I'm pretty sure there are frames of it where it looks as if it is hitting and sheik can not be hit all together at a certain distance, even when standing or lets say deploying the chain or something to that effect.
Ah, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.
As I've already said, barring a percentage advantage (see Ankoku's post) Sheik doesn't even have to approach. <3 also reminded me that I THINK Sheik can crouch under the reflector hitbox, in which case your whole argument is null. Even if she can't, you can powershield it and punish it for it's long duration and punishable afterlag.
Predict a roll? Good Sheiks should never be rolling through an opponent, ever. F Smash is situational and hard to land, I stand by the fact Falco will most likely be killing around 140% from a B Air.
Yes, I agree with you that Falco has an element of unpredictability in his recovery, my point is that Sheik has an effective answer to every situation, so in theory Sheik's edgeguard game can **** Falco. Granted we're not taking into account predictability issues, but it's certainly possible that a Sheik can counter every option.
Understandable, I was just pointing out that I've got nothing against you, my discussion style can come off as agressive.
Agreed.
Full hop needle? As in, just one needle right? Well, given the fact it's only one needle going at a lame angle, and it isn't exactly the fastest projectile, that's not going to be easy to land (especially given the Falco constantly moves has he spams). Also, Falco can shield/dodge. I don't think one little needle is going to much much of a difference against a wall of spam.
That's what I always assumed, but if Falco saves his double jump and/or decides to just sweetspot, needles don't work out to be that amazing given the limited ways Sheik can actually hit Falco when you're wondering which way he decides to recover.
Well, Sheik isn't that good at camping at all to start with. It's the fact she's given more limited movement, forced to approach, also get's damaged easily (CG/Camping), etc.
This percentage advantage is usually going to be favoring Falco though.
>_< @ demo for even bringing up reflector.
They do though. Sheik has a pretty good roll and sometimes it's just instinct. There's also spot dodges and simply missed moves. Falco's Fsmash hitbox is silly and after watching D1 and Chillin, it's surprisingly often that people may fall victim to it.
What Ankoku said.
Which characters don't? Characters with an even easier time (Ex. MK and Snake) still struggle.
You can't use that argument. Sheik can F Tilt lock with equal or greater ease then a Falco can CG, the only situation I see this developing is from a completely neutral start where a Falco has gotten tack damage from laser. Otherwise it goes either way.
Yep.
Good players don't roll on instinct, nor should they. It's a nasty habit. Sheik's moves are quick with usually low cooldown, nothing like enough to punish with F Smash.
Sheik won't get killed at the exact U Smash KO percentage, which IIRC is around 120%? So I stand by my 140% comment.
We're dealing in theory here. Theoretically therefore, Sheik has an option for every recovery option. Things like predictability are where we need some actual matchup evidence from a good Sheik and Falco.
Match begins, Falco spams lasers, Falco now has the % lead
But they do...
Ex. If Sheik miss spaces an aerial as Falco tries to punish it with a Fsmash, regardless of how low her cooldown is, she will get it. That is why I mentioned the silly hitbox. Cooldown is almost irrelevant if the move has the reach and priority (this can also be used to reason why DK isn't horrible).
Match begins, Sheik shoots a needle and crouches. C wut I did ther?
Not really. I haven't proven myself as a good player but I don't roll past people on 'instinct', I'm sure someone like Azen can manage it.
If the Falco is mid execution of F Smash then a Sheik won't miss space an aerial unless they're really bad.
Good ****, this I would be interested in.
Falco's spam is far easier to land haha
I've played him and seen him play others. People have to realize they're human too haha. Especially when you consider how rolling, in general, has more use in Barwl.
If Sheik is even attempting to get near Falco after mid execution, she'll get hit. I was kinda thinking in situations where Falco thinks ahead and reads Sheik's next move and punishes it with a Fsmash (and for a plus, consider how Falco limits Sheik's movability).
Honestly what's there to learn? It isn't like the DI for the ftilt requires precise inputs or anything lol.
Haha this vid was funny. The snake went super saiyan in his 3rd stock... man.
