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"LCD always lag" -> myth busted

lwouis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
31
I was on another topic talking about NTSC Melee, and people started to say that no matter what I would do, Melee would lag on a LCD. Well that's not true. I finished my setup, and everything is smooth and beautiful.

Some of you may remember that I came here some time ago asking for the best way to enjoy Melee in HD. People were confused by the many technologies and combinations of setup, and I had to document myself to an enormous extent.

Today I'm glad to report that my setup is working great. 480p Melee on my high-profile 19" LCD has never looked so sharped.
 

Mizar

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Messages
735
Location
Netherlands
I was on another topic talking about NTSC Melee, and people started to say that no matter what I would do, Melee would lag on a LCD. Well that's not true. I finished my setup, and everything is smooth and beautiful.

Some of you may remember that I came here some time ago asking for the best way to enjoy Melee in HD. People were confused by the many technologies and combinations of setup, and I had to document myself to an enormous extent.

Today I'm glad to report that my setup is working great. 480p Melee on my high-profile 19" LCD has never looked so sharped.
cool story bro

you got any sort of proof to back it up?
 

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
It does lag :> Maybe you don't notice it, but any high level player will tell you that there is a fraction of a second of lag and that makes all the difference.
 

Jonas

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
2,400
Location
Aarhus, Denmark, Europe
It doesn't lag because it's LCD (well some do, but that's not the big issue), it lags because 480p is not its native resolution. So if lwouis' screen is an HD screen and it doesn't lag at all, well good for him I guess :V
 
Joined
Oct 5, 2008
Messages
7,187
Putting it on game mode (If it has it) can take the lag down a little more but you will always have a few frames working against you.
I've played on some that definitely have less than a frame of lag. Game Mode is always a given.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
How much lag is there on CRTs that people use for tournament? Like, is it even a measurable amount or is it that close to being instantaneous?
 

lwouis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
31
Why are people talking about HDTV? My setup uses a LCD and I can only assess that lagless Melee is possible on LCD.

Now I don't know about a "less than a frame of lag". Maybe I'm not that pro, but it seems perfectly responsive to me.
 

Jonas

Smash Champion
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
2,400
Location
Aarhus, Denmark, Europe
Why are people talking about HDTV? My setup uses a LCD and I can only assess that lagless Melee is possible on LCD.
So it's NOT a HDTV?
If it was, it would lag because of the upscaling process. If it's just a LCD with a native resolution of 480p, you shouldn't expect it to lag much.
 

lwouis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
31
@Jonas: where the hell did you see me talking about HDTV? Seriously check the OP. It's about LCD. I don't even own an HDTV.

That being said, my LCD has a native resolution of 1280*1024. The 480p is a preset mode, and I think that it's downscaling fast enough. There must be a dedicated circuit for this, and I'm pretty confident that it's fast. But again, maybe I can't perceive it because I'm not Mango.
 

ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
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If your LCD has a native resolution of 480i or 480p it's possible to not have lag. 480p will require the component cables. I can't confirm if your game mode preset of 480p is automatic and requires no conversion, but your settings seem like it's plausible to have no lag.
 

booshk

Smash Lord
Joined
May 14, 2006
Messages
1,104
if you're new to the game you probably won't realize the lag lol
 

0Room

Smash Lord
Joined
Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,953
Location
Boone, NC
@OP you failed to mention what the TV was


I connected my Wii to my PC and can play on my nice LCD monitor with no lag.

Though it looks ALOT better with Dolphin at 1080P with no lag lolololo.
So, this is possible then?
 

Tichinde925

Smash Legend
Joined
May 4, 2006
Messages
1,391
Location
U.S.A. (Warwick, RI)
If you use something like Easy Cap or Dazzle, you can connect your console to your PC and play off your monitor with no lag.



There is no lag as long as long as you are not recording. I havent really tested playing and recording with a capture card.

Maybe there is lag on weaker PCs, I dont have a weak pc, so maybe its just me :/
 

Tichinde925

Smash Legend
Joined
May 4, 2006
Messages
1,391
Location
U.S.A. (Warwick, RI)




Quality looks terrible with Easy Cap, though I'm not sure if its just easy cap as I have only used Easy Cap.

Looks much better on Dolphin.

No lag on either, both plays excellent. Can play games on both monitors at the same time with no lag.
 

lwouis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
31
I can't take pictures right now cause I lost my iPhone, but the quality on my LCD is almost equal to Dolphin on fairly high settings. It's not as freakin sharp as Dolphin 3x native resolution / 16x AA / Anisotropic filter, but hell it's good enough, and way better than a GameCube + CRT setup.

Also I tested intensively, and even though my name is not Mango, I'm pretty sure the lag is absolute 0.

Another benefice of playing Melee on the Wii is getting a savefile with everything unlocked on your GameCube memory card. I lost mine a while ago, and it was a relief to get everything back in 5 minutes, as opposed to play something like 500 VS games.
 

Tichinde925

Smash Legend
Joined
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U.S.A. (Warwick, RI)
I always backup my saves.

Your Wii is connected directly to your monitor where I used both hardware and software to render the console on my Monitor. Thus, the quality was not so good.

Only problem is you wont be able to record what your monitor outputs where I can :p

I have not yet tested recording from both Monitors at the same time for the lulz and to see what the framerate would be.
 

LLDL

Smash Hero
Joined
Apr 27, 2007
Messages
7,128
gamecube + crt looks much better than a wii on any lcd. Idk why people like those ugly pixelated character models. They look hideous on lcd. Not smooth at all.
 

SleepyK

Banned via Administration
Joined
Mar 26, 2006
Messages
5,871
If you use something like Easy Cap or Dazzle, you can connect your console to your PC and play off your monitor with no lag.



There is no lag as long as long as you are not recording. I havent really tested playing and recording with a capture card.

Maybe there is lag on weaker PCs, I dont have a weak pc, so maybe its just me :/
you actually can't, tichinde. USB 2.0 doesn't have the bandwith to do live video feed.
it is possible with internal cards, however.
perhaps some future usb 3.0 cards will as well.




LCDs do not always necessarily lag.

I'm not an expert on this so I may be wrong, but this is what I've gathered from testing TVs and the internets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Input_lag

factors that can contribute to lag:

1) native resolution: as mentioned earlier, gamecube's is 480i or 480p if you have the cables. most HDTVs have native resolutions much higher than 480.
You don't generally want 480i(interlaced) on a digital TV, so you'd get the wii or GC component cables.
Wii component cables are cheap, GC ones are expensive.
more info on the wiki.

2) postprocessing: HDTVs, especially nicer ones, will try to gussy up the picture so it looks nicer. this takes time.
things like "game mode" usually reduce postprocessing.

3) response time:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Response_time_(technology)#Display_technologies

how long a pixel on a LCD screen takes to change from one value to another.
pretty straightforward.

For digital televisions, the ideal result will be "Input lag and pixel response time that is below the noticeable human threshold."



So, you have a HDTV, you have the component cables.
Is the native resolution of the HDTV aligned with the 480p native resolution of Melee?
If not, the video is probably being upscaled to fit to the TV. this is one potential source of lag.

Even if the native resolutions are aligned, is there postprocessing? game mode can help turn it off.

what about the pixel response time? if it's too high, then the motion won't transfer as smoothly and it might cause lag issues.

I've seen a few modern LCDTVs that fit the bill.

a few basic tests i like to run are reaction timing based-tests such as shinehogging.
i'm not fluid with it yet, so i still have to concentrate on where i am before i can execute it. if the images being sent to me are slow enough, I probably won't be landing a single shinehog.

Also, moving the hand around on the character selection screen seems to be a reliable method of testing pixel response time. if you can visibly see the pixels reforming as you slowwwwwwly move the hand, the tv might have perceivable lag.

please correct me if i am wrong.
 

MikeHaggarTHAKJB

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 12, 2008
Messages
3,186
Location
Göteborg, Sweden
Quality looks terrible with Easy Cap, though I'm not sure if its just easy cap as I have only used Easy Cap.

Looks much better on Dolphin.

No lag on either, both plays excellent. Can play games on both monitors at the same time with no lag.
the reason that dolphin looks better isnt because the quality is reduced by easycap, its because dolphin runs in 1080p whereas a gc or a wii cant run in that resolution (and even if they where they wouldnt be powerful enough to run ssbm at that resolution @ 60 fps)
 

SleepyK

Banned via Administration
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Mar 26, 2006
Messages
5,871
Hmm, i don't think it's exactly lagless on your USB. i remember extensively researching it last year before i caved in and bought a VGA box. It's probably close to not noticeable. That's pretty neat though. I didn't know you could get it that close with a usb 2.0 card
 

Foodacris

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
5
Location
Evansville, IN
Regarding capture cards, USB 2.0 definitely has the bandwidth to stream low resolution video at a pretty efficient rate. However, I wouldn't count on it being lag free. For a game that requires even more precise visual timing than most games, like Melee, even if you don't always notice the lag, it can still have a negative influence on your gameplay.

Speaking of which, I recently purchased a new monitor/TV (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005144) and even though neither my friend nor myself could notice any lag, we both played noticeably worse and made considerably more mistakes with our timing than we normally do. I realize this isn't exactly concrete proof or anything, but you'll just have to take my word for it. Of course, it could have just been in our heads.

In short, I believe even though some LCD's will get pretty close to correct timing with minimal lag, there is just no beating a CRT for Melee. I realize my post isn't exactly the most convincing, but if you plan to play the game in its full glory, then I personally don't recommend anything but a CRT.

Also, first post (=
 

Tichinde925

Smash Legend
Joined
May 4, 2006
Messages
1,391
Location
U.S.A. (Warwick, RI)
Regarding capture cards, USB 2.0 definitely has the bandwidth to stream low resolution video at a pretty efficient rate. However, I wouldn't count on it being lag free. For a game that requires even more precise visual timing than most games, like Melee, even if you don't always notice the lag, it can still have a negative influence on your gameplay.

Speaking of which, I recently purchased a new monitor/TV (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005144) and even though neither my friend nor myself could notice any lag, we both played noticeably worse and made considerably more mistakes with our timing than we normally do. I realize this isn't exactly concrete proof or anything, but you'll just have to take my word for it. Of course, it could have just been in our heads.

In short, I believe even though some LCD's will get pretty close to correct timing with minimal lag, there is just no beating a CRT for Melee. I realize my post isn't exactly the most convincing, but if you plan to play the game in its full glory, then I personally don't recommend anything but a CRT.

Also, first post (=
That monitor has 5 ms lag.

Try using a monitor with 2ms rated lag. (Not sure if they have lower rated ms monitors yet)

My monitor is at 2 ms lag.
 

Foodacris

Smash Rookie
Joined
Dec 5, 2010
Messages
5
Location
Evansville, IN
That monitor has 5 ms lag.

Try using a monitor with 2ms rated lag. (Not sure if they have lower rated ms monitors yet)

My monitor is at 2 ms lag.
You're talking about response time. Response time and input lag are two different things. The input lag is the actually difference between what is happening on the monitor and what is happening on the system. Response time refers to color switching and is generally associated with whether or not a monitor will show ghosting on fast moving images.
 

Anth0ny

Smash Master
Joined
Oct 14, 2007
Messages
4,061
Location
Toronto, Ontario
wait...

so if I play it on my Wii with component cables (on my 48 inch 1080p), and set it to 480p, it won't lag? Or, at least... very minimal lag?

also, dolphin doesn't lag anymore for melee? if so, I really need to get a gaming laptop asap.
 

Korrupshen

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
518
Location
dat place
If I was to play smash with component cables will I get a lesser lag difference if I was to use VGA or the Wii2HDMI, because I heard that HDMI>VGA>Component in both lag difference and picture quality. Is this true ?

EDIT: @ Anth0ny it doesn't, but the netplay isn't stable at the moment. It desyncs like every 2 to 3 mins.
 

SleepyK

Banned via Administration
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Mar 26, 2006
Messages
5,871
probably will get better with component cables
cause the wii doesn't output higher than 480p anyway
 

Kanelol

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Messages
1,840
Location
Ohio yeeeee
i had some janky *** cables that hooked my Wii up to some LCD HDTV AIDS computer monitor and I didnt get any lag

plug the regular old gamecube into that same monitor, laggy as ****

also, i dunno about you, but i can notice > 1 frame of lag
 

lwouis

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 10, 2010
Messages
31
I heard that HDMI>VGA>Component in both lag difference and picture quality. Is this true ?
Keep in mind that the Wii best output signal is component. This means that VGA or HDMI are converted from component signal. This conversion can only lower the quality. HDMI>VGA>Component would be true if the Wii output HDMI and VGA. Though, as it only outputs component, you get degraded signal from HDMI/VGA converters.

I would use component if I could, but my LCD only inputs are VGA/DVI-D. Also, component cables are the most affordable/common for the Wii. I would really advise anyone who wants to play HD Melee to get an official (or other high-end) component cable. That's the simplest/cheapest way to get HD 480p Melee going on.

Look at that kind of quality and tell me you don't want to play Melee like that :)

Note : if you HDTV requires HDMI, there's this great product available.
 
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