Last duke biweekly! Online prereg! $20 venue $0 entry|m2k, armada, pp, ally attending

[*P*L*U*R*]

we've got nifty desynch stuff that no one ever does.... >_<

 

[NC-Echo]

No rests are definitely a large portion of jigs game. Top level play I would expect most jigs to get average 1 rest a game vs. most characters.

 

[lord karn]

lol, ics have a 1 player advantage but each ic is like only .6 so only a 20% advantage

karn, do ppl really use rest set up that much as jiggs? i thought the metagame was centered primarily on aerials and rarely is the rest given much thought unless specific situations come up. . .

Rests are really important. Look at PP vs Hbox from Herb2 when it comes out. Even though hbox only got a couple rests over the whole set, it was usually because pp messed up something really simple, or just didn't know that rest could punish something that he did. That's just a small tidbit of matchup knowledge that probably lost pp the whole set. Even one rest in a match can change the outcome of a set. I personally think it's dumb that PP might have lost the set simply because of one or two very simple mistakes/misinformation.

 

[DJRome]

but how is that punishment different from like a grab? many characters have very high probability of killing from grab too and that's way less situational i feel maybe i haven't encountered enough jiggs my imo rest kill == grab kill

 

[lord karn]

but how is that punishment different from like a grab? many characters have very high probability of killing from grab too and that's way less situational i feel maybe i haven't encountered enough jiggs my imo rest kill == grab kill

Well, getting a death combo requires the person comboing to outplay the other play on at least a few different instances. They have to follow di, then follow up with a successful edgeguard. In most high tier matchups, neither character gets a guaranteed kill off a grab, they just put the opponent into a situation where more of their options are covered, and thus it's easier to outplay them.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

is that any different from fox missing an l-cancel against a falco and getting shine-daired about 4 times into a d/fsmash? only difference is the number of inputs.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Unlike grabs or shines, rest automatically kills, which takes out the uncertainty and need for DI(basically, I'm simplifying( and such.

Also, Falco can't USUALLY death combo Fox. Maybe like, once in three matches he should do it, but it's not guaranteed death like a rest OOS or something.

Rest is dumb because it can be executed from the ground, the air, and OOS and is very successful. Grounded rests usually come from hitting someone out of their recovery or punishing a missed tech or something.
Aerial rests come from the opponent miss-spacing(sp?) an otherwise guaranteed combo(Falcon's Dthrow knee can be rested out of. gay.), and can punish techs/rolls on platforms.
OOS rests punish aerials(like Falco's Dair) or other attacks(Falco's not fully spaced Fsmash for example) that put themselves too close to Jiggz's shield. This is really good because 1. Jiggz does not move much when hit in her shield and 2. freakin rest hits from the backside too. If Falco shines OOS on Fox when he's backwards, then he'd better be pretty darn technical to make that a grounded shine and WD back to actually start a combo. Marth can't grab from behind or in the air. Jigglypuff.....pushes down-B and gets out of combos, punishes techs, and gets out of shield pressure, while simultaneously getting your opponent far away from you at earlier percents, and is certain death at most percents. Marth's CG is percent dependent. Falco has no Fox "auto-combos" after 40%.

Down-B people. It's really good.

 

[Dorsey]

I haven't read all of this--I will in the next 10 minutes or so but **** ya'll, his lasers aren't that gay! You can powershield them. There is no way falco could be considered even close to the gayest character when you can powershield them. NC just needs to step it up and learn to do it. I'm not too great at it but I was actually just practicing it yesterday and hitting it somewhat.

after reading: jiggly puff's rest isn't what makes jiggly puff gay, to me. It's the fact that it takes 0 technical skill to use her practically, whatsoever, and anyone who can mind-game and knows the game well will **** with puff. I was playing ace lastnight and i hit plenty of gay rests, though. One I CC'd his ganon dtilt then rested the tip of his toe, hit a nice tech-chase rest of roll or 2, some cool combo to rests and then some really easy ones.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

As ICs, I don't even bother with powersheilding Falco's laser. We just spam Ice blocks to make him try to jump over. then We just wavedash under with an upsmash or an Uptilt. Either way, it's a FREE GRAB(woot).

Well, it worked on Josh's Falco.


I can't believe Josh is the only person that think's IC is the gayest character in the game.

 

[Criosphinx]

I main Marth in melee, I just never play him in tourney. He's definitely gay.

I want to play melee now.

 

[DJRome]

Crio, come bring that jiggs over here. I think I got it this time lol

if you ask me, i'd look at it from a mathematical standpoint

from an expected value perspective,

1=kill, 0= nothing, -1=u die

jiggs:
some situations say .8 of the time someone screws up = rest able. say .9 of the rests land.

that means .72*1+.08*-1 or EV=.64

Whereas situations for others grab is more like .95 of the time and assured death from the grab is like .3

easy death has a value of .75, the probability of easy death from grab is .7 of the time assured death doesn't happen

(.3 * .95 * 1) + (.75 * .95 * .7 * .7) = 0.634125

I'd say the expected value is about the same provided these numbers are reasonable

 

[Foxy]

No matter how impractical it is, I love the mathematical perspective xD

But the point is pretty much correct, on average, the chance you'll get a rest kill (balanced by the fact that you die when you miss) is about the same as getting a death from a grab.

Howeeeeveer, pro Jiggs really get all their rests. Hungrybox...

no.

 

[NC-Echo]

Your math is correct but your logic is not. Your math only accounts for the times jigs gets a rest off of a throw. Just like other high tiers jigs has other options out of a throw and rest is not the only one. You are also ignoring the room for error with other characters while you accounted for it with jigs. Also other characters have several situations they must play through for a successful grab-to-death to be accomplished whereas jigs has but one or two in most situations. Therefore the room for error accounted for and therefore the error multiplier needs to be higher for the math you used for the lumped category of "other high tiers". Considering these errors in your math I would assume that once recalculated you would see a much larger difference, empirically, between the numbers you got for jigs and the numbers you would get for other characters. Not to mention the impracticality of trying to calculate such a number in the first place. I mentioned a couple problems with your math but in truth the formula you came up with is far to simple to account for the all the complications involved.

 

[DJRome]

How did I not account for error? While I realize the calculation is without basis, I allocated 30% of the time assured death from grab, and the 70% of the time assured death is not possible, 70% of those equal easy death (from either high percents or you take like 10 damage to kill them later in that stock). And the jiggs calculation includes both jiggs rest from throw and from other errors oos etc. They are lumped together.

As you can see, the initial percentage is that of how the situation would allow. 80% for jiggs to rest is quite high as it is, and 95% is fairly accurate for mistakes into grab punish. Having 90% of rests land is also a fairly accurate assessment. I'm not sure where you say I have no error for other high tiers.

 

[ptown]

wtf is this ****?

 

[DJRome]

lol new maths

 

[Dorsey]

I see what you're trying to do....(i'm know math well, it's my major, and I take a mathematical approach to basically everything)...but how is ANY of that absolute? lol.

At best from a mathematical standpoint you could get an inaccurate generalized number...... not plausible whatsoever to draw a conclusion from. (it's impossible to account for error.......)

edit:

You could theoretically create some accurate formulas for this... but you'd have to make hundreds of different formulas to depict different scenarios that are character and stage dependent, ALL the while factoring in the 24 different ways one can DI, AND if your opponent double-stick techs the rest (create a special formula for magus? lmao)........AND on top of all this, somehow factor in your opponent's efficiency at reading the 24 different ways one can DI(still doesn't account for your opponent attempting to rest you while expecting relatively good DI and misses because you mess up and DI poorly)...... but yeah if you were to do that, you would STILL have an inaccurate, generalized set of formulas.

 

[-ACE-]

wtf is this ****?

I support this message.

 

[ptown]

you guys sound like you can beat dr pp.



hello ace bud.

 

[-ACE-]

Sup Peter bro

Once I get some cash you'll be seeing a bit more of me lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

wtf is this ****?

Best post in the thread.


Anyways, thank you Dorsey. Everyone man up. Ganon can beat Falco. Linguini beats Shiz and Chops and I think he 3-stocked m.go's Falco as well. If Ganon can do it, then Sheik or Marth or FOX can sure do it.

Rest isn't the gayest part of Jiggz, but her Bthrow and easy as all WoP sure is. Ugh. My rest reply was only concerning how effective it was/to fix misconceptions. I never said it was the gayest thing.


Edit: I can be beaten in Melee, but you'll have to take advantage of my bad habits. Oh and not play Falcon LOL.

 

[NC-Echo]

If your think your math is correct than your logic is worse than I thought. There is far far far too much left unaccounted for. As Dorsey pointed out the actually formula would have to be a lot more complicated.

 

[DJRome]

No, I said if you assume my numbers are reasonable (with the assumption of a simple enough model), then it would be similar. Obviously, the numbers have no basis as I've pointed out. I was simply trying to make a point of saying that jiggs rest = other grab punish. lol as an engineer, I know the flaws of such a system, but for the sake of the sanity of the board, I was trying for brevity. clearly you think i was actually trying to model the reality. I was just ballparking the #'s because to me they seem reasonable.

and pp imma take 4 stocks in one game from you on the 12th. once. i think. yeah.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I will go Pichu vs your any character(in tournament or not if you want) one match. We'll see if you can do it.

Be warned, I have been trained by Everlasting Yayuhz.

 

[DJRome]

not in the tongue of comments too puuhleezz. . . lol

 

[NC-Echo]

Although I understand your point, I must point out that as a student, I believe claiming the title of engineer would be incorrect.

 

[DJRome]

lol aight, im not u got me

 

[NC-Echo]

Its ok. I used to call myself an economist before I graduated.

 

[-ACE-]

<---Biologist.

Lol. Like I can remember anything I learned.

 

[*P*L*U*R*]

the only thing that i took out of this was that apparently there are 24 different ways to di. never knew that. cool beans.

 

[mr.fizwidget]

i learned that ace is a biologist...

and bill can be an *******

 

[Dorsey]

Yeah, 24 different inputs with the analog joystick means that there are several ways to have pretty good DI but some, in particular 1 will be better than the rest. Pretty ****ing difficult to be exact with that **** though haha.

 

[stingers]

**** pp you're cocky son

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you're talking about the beating me in Melee comment, that's being realistic. If I was cocky I would say none of you could ever beat me. I'm perfectly beatable.

If you're trolling, then you suck.

If you're making fun of me for when DJRome said I know everything, then good deal.

 

[stingers]

dammit....

 

[mr.fizwidget]

its all about limiting your opponents options...

 

[stingers]

or predicting their approach...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Or abusing ledge invincibility. XD

 

[mr.fizwidget]

lmao pp....

get wrecked stongers @.@

 

[stingers]

raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaape