Last DLC Pack has divided the community.

[Xelrog]

Smash isn't "supposed" to be a celebration of gaming,

Yes it is.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yes it is.

No, it's supposed to be a game about Nintendo characters beating each other up. That's how it started, that's how it's advertised to the masses and it's the main reason most people buy the game as a result. Everything else: trophies, bios, Adventures, third party characters etc. is just gravy. A lot of stuff that some players won't even look twice at or care about, but Sakurai still puts in out of the goodness of his heart (or the desire to make the best game possible that will sell more depending on how cynical you are).

And considering all the "reboot" threads floating around, it sounds like maintaining this "historical record" isn't exactly high on the priority list for many...

 

[Ladyspiker]

I'm also not familiar with Persona and King of Fighters. I did play a little Dragon Quest to know what it's about however. It's a series tied to Nintendo and started on Nintendo, same with Banjo-Kazooie. Anyway, Fire Emblem getting a newcomer after Three Houses is very logical. Fire Emblem became international because of Smash Bros., and Three Houses is very critically acclaimed if you haven't noticed yet. I don't think Fire Emblem gets too much newcomers, it's just a shame that other newcomers from established Nintendo franchises don't get this much. There's a lot to work with also.

DKC should have Dixie, but logically could also include the likes of Cranky Kong. Zelda could have easily gotten a Champion of BotW, (Urbosa) Skull Kid and Impa. Starfox could have Slippy and Krystal. Kirby could have Bandana Dee and probably some others.

Thing is not all of these characters are recent. And Fire Emblem characters often are, and are naturally fit for Smash Bros. too. Relevant, recent, and easy to include in Smash.

But yeah I get your point.

I agree with your assessment overall. With the DLC pack from Wii U/DS, Sakurai stated that Corrin was added because they wanted a character from a new game and Nintendo thought Corrin was the best choice. I imagine similar logic applies to Byleth. Like you said, Byleth is easy to implement, relevant and new. I know people are more concerned about the total character count for the franchise, but let's just look at the game itself. If Byleth wasn't added, Three Houses would be the best selling Nintendo Switch game without a single representative in Smash. So, if Nintendo is looking for a newer character, doesn't adding the protagonist of that game make sense? Better yet, they managed to incorporate all three lords into Byleth via moves/alts, so all the prominent Three Houses characters are represented. That should appease anyone that's concerned about more TH reps in the next pass.

That said, the arguments against Byleth in this thread have been very convincing and agree that a lot of characters mentioned like Dixie Kong should have a place on the roster. I bought the DLC pass and will buy the next one because I want to support them in adding more and more characters/stages/music. The game has brought me hundreds of hours of enjoyment for the mere price of $50, so I don't mind kicking in a little extra to keep the momentum going.

 

[Lenidem]

No, it's supposed to be a game about Nintendo characters beating each other up. That's how it started, that's how it's advertised to the masses and it's the main reason most people buy the game as a result. Everything else: trophies, bios, Adventures, third party characters etc. is just gravy. A lot of stuff that some players won't even look twice at or care about, but Sakurai still puts in out of the goodness of his heart (or the desire to make the best game possible that will sell more depending on how cynical you are).

And considering all the "reboot" threads floating around, it sounds like maintaining this "historical record" isn't exactly high on the priority list for many...

That's how it started, but that's not how Reggie sold it when he was presenting Joker. Anyway, that's not the point. Even if it was 'a celebration of Nintendo's history', there should be some kind of balance between franchises. Nowadays, Fire Emblem is important and sells well, yes. But is it more important for Nintendo's history than, say, Donkey Kong? I don't think so. And yet, if you look at the roster, DK seems very minor while FE looks huge. I think that kind of disproportion is a problem.

Smash isn't "supposed" to be a celebration of gaming, it just turned out that way as a result of it's growth. Nothing stopping the higher-ups from taking away everything non-Nintendo in the next installment if they deem it unfeasible or some other reason. Also, it's hardly a guarantee inclusion in Smash will lead a series to success. Ice Climber still has nothing and F-Zero bombed.

Two assist trophies, a stage, new remix and item hardly makes Majora's Mask feel neglected to me. Sorry this isn't Hyrule Warriors where you can severely exaggerate the capabilities of everyone in Hyrule.



I'd ask what you think of the people who make support threads for Gen 8 Pokemon regardless, but I think we all know no one wants to hear what you really think of them.



Don't count your Pokemon eggs before they hatch. Jigglypuff could very well be re-added in the expansions.

Concerning Zelda's and Majora's representation, it's true that they have a great deal of items, stages and assist, and I'm glad they do. But let's be honest: the real important thing is the playable characters. That's what's on people's mind, and that's what Nintendo is making a big fuss about. It's not called a stage or a music pass...

As for your comment about how your interlocutor feels about Sword and Shield supporters, I think it's out of place. You can disagree with someone and still respect him as person. Saying 'I don't think this character you support should be in Smash' is not an insult.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Fire Emblem is not more important than Donkey Kong. However, the momentum of the franchises is way different. DKC was at the peak of its fame BEFORE Smash 64. Fire Emblem is at the peak of its fame right now. Also, Fire Emblem has a new protagonist or two every game. DKC would feel Esther "complete" with Dixie alone as a newcomer now. Fire Emblem is due for a character each new game basically... Smash 4 should've had Dixie and we wouldn't have had this conversation.

However even as the big DKC fan that I am, asking for more than Dixie probably would be a little too much. Funky would serve as a great Echo, and Cranky Kong also has the merits for fighter status. K.Rool was the most obviously missing, and Banjo also counts as a DKC character, a little.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Double post poop

 

[Lenidem]

Fire Emblem is not more important than Donkey Kong. However, the momentum of the franchises is way different. DKC was at the peak of its fame BEFORE Smash 64. Fire Emblem is at the peak of its fame right now. Also, Fire Emblem has a new protagonist or two every game. DKC would feel Esther "complete" with Dixie alone as a newcomer now. Fire Emblem is due for a character each new game basically... Smash 4 should've had Dixie and we wouldn't have had this conversation.

However even as the big DKC fan that I am, asking for more than Dixie probably would be a little too much. Funky would serve as a great Echo, and Cranky Kong also has the merits for fighter status. K.Rool was the most obviously missing, and Banjo also counts as a DKC character, a little.

I actually agree that all series shouldn't have the same amount of fighters. Dixie would be enough for DK's representation, yes, even if we could go a bit further. And calling Banjo a DK rep is a big stretch, even if I see what you mean.

(I'm not even a DK fan myself, by the way. Only played and loved the first DK Country, Return, and DKR, and hated DK64.)

That's the 'momentum' argument I can't agree on. It's like saying that recent is always better than old. Imagine a museum in which contemporaneous artists always have the priority because the time of the old classic is past... You can do that, of course, but then don't pretend it's about art history, because it's just a modern art museum.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

I don't think the problem is that we have too many anime swordsmen

I also don't think the problem is that we have too many Fire Emblem characters

I think the problem is that we keep getting Fire Emblem characters that were deliberately designed to be similar to each other. Not half as many people would be whining if we got any Fire Emblem character other than each games 'stoic, blue-haired, sword wielding MC'.

People would be up in arms about Pokemon or Mario characters if all we got was each Region's token 'not-Pikachu', or every smash game added a new profession for Mario.

 

[HansShotFirst20]

I don't think the problem is that we have too many anime swordsmen

I also don't think the problem is that we have too many Fire Emblem characters

I think the problem is that we keep getting Fire Emblem characters that were deliberately designed to be similar to each other. Not half as many people would be whining if we got any Fire Emblem character other than each games 'stoic, blue-haired, sword wielding MC'.

People would be up in arms about Pokemon or Mario characters if all we got was each Region's token 'not-Pikachu', or every smash game added a new profession for Mario.

EDIT: oop double post sorry

 

[Xelrog]

No, it's supposed to be a game about Nintendo characters beating each other up.

It only started that way for licensing limitations, not developer intention. If the devs thought they had the chance to add third parties you bet your ass they would have thrown them in, and marketed the hell out of them. Snake was looking to be added in Melee, the game IMMEDIATELY after the series had proven its success. They couldn't WAIT to spread it outside Nintendo as much as they legally could. It was never, ever intended to be exclusive to Nintendo.

Sakurai himself came out and called it a celebration of gaming as a whole in exactly those words in the Byleth presentation, which I assume you have to know as you used exactly those words.

 

[meleebrawler]

It only started that way for licensing limitations, not developer intention. If the devs thought they had the chance to add third parties you bet your ass they would have thrown them in, and marketed the hell out of them. Snake was looking to be added in Melee, the game IMMEDIATELY after the series had proven its success. They couldn't WAIT to spread it outside Nintendo as much as they legally could. It was never, ever intended to be exclusive to Nintendo.

Sakurai himself came out and called it a celebration of gaming as a whole in exactly those words in the Byleth presentation, which I assume you have to know as you used exactly those words.

It's not about developer intention, it's about the message being sent to the mass market, and not just the dedicated kind who tune in to online presentations. Stuff like TV or Youtube commercials. They may show third party characters there but they don't dwell on their significance. Even the backs of boxes for Brawl and 4 basically treated the third parties as side notes, and Ultimate's uses the "Everyone Is Here" tagline, which is more referring to the history of Smash itself than anything.

Those statements of yours make it seem like Sakurai has always been looking to add third parties since Melee, but the truth is he and Nintendo didn't make any effort to get them until Brawl, and Snake was only considered for Melee because of Hideo Kojima approaching and practically begging Sakurai to put Snake in, not the other way around. None of this is to say that Smash isn't a celebration of gaming now, but the core has always been Nintendo all-stars. If you tried to make gaming history the main selling point of Smash, people would question why it's so heavily Nintendo biased.

 

[lucasla]

There are some characters that, even being a part of Nintendo, they are not really that appealing anymore. Requests for Dixie Kong or Waluigi, or some others, dont make much sense to me. These would be more "fill the holes" characters, to give a sense of completion of that series in Smash, but would add no relevance or bring anything new and refreshing to the game. Some characters like Waluigi, dont even have a game of their own, and are less than secondary characters. Since Nintendo also dont have many new relevant characters (the last new nintendo character was Inkling as I remember now), I dont see any problem in add new characters from other non-nintendo series or new games. Would be nice to have all Nintendo characters there? Yes. But the game really need them? I dont think so... I would even preffer a character from a new game, to give the sensation that is more than a museum of old games, and it on pair with games of today.

 

[Princess Rescuer]

I am happy that this character has started a discussion and the team works hard enough to make it work anyway. I’m also thankful that Smash DLC being unappealing means I won’t want to spend money on it.

My main problem is that Byleth looks slow and not fun to play. It’s an advertisement character for a game that’s already popular. In addition to there being too many FE/sword characters, there’s just too many CHARACTERS. How many will we have by the end of the generation? 100? And 30 will be DLC? What’s that going to cost? Smash is bloated and needs a reboot to trim the fat and reset our expectations.

 

[SuperNintendoChalmers]

There's always going to be division and disagreements when a character is released, nothing new. It's a bit more pronounced being a FE character, but it will blow over and it will be businessa s usual in terms of speculation.

That's how it started, but that's not how Reggie sold it when he was presenting Joker. Anyway, that's not the point. Even if it was 'a celebration of Nintendo's history', there should be some kind of balance between franchises. Nowadays, Fire Emblem is important and sells well, yes. But is it more important for Nintendo's history than, say, Donkey Kong? I don't think so. And yet, if you look at the roster, DK seems very minor while FE looks huge. I think that kind of disproportion is a problem.

Common knowledge that DK in the 90's was critically acclaimed and commercially successful. But many don't realise that the Donkey Kong Country trilogy gave the SNES the second wind that it needed with Sega and Playstation on the horizon with new consoles. From a historical perspective it was crucial to Nintendo's fortunes.

FE has only further built popularity with the tactial RPG genre in the West and to be fair in general. It has been one of Nintendo's key franchises in recent times. There are many variables but both are important, have been very successful for Nintendo and have achieved great things respectively. For a pure comaprision right now for me DK shades it, but at the same time we'll look back at FE in 15-20 years and it will be viewed similarly. FE is what it is now just like DK was in the mid to late 90's.

 

[KayaMarley]

It's crazy how one character from one franchise can cause this much of an uproar within Smash.
It really is sad to be honest(in my opinion), that we did get a another FE character, however we are getting a kick ass stage, you guys can't deny how cool this transition stage is going to be.
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I respect the people that like FE(Fire Emblem) however I really think it's not cool to harp on and insult people and antagonize them for expressing their disappointment. People have free speech, and directly attacking others for that is really low.

Spoiler: Mod edit: image was censor dodging

View attachment 258158

We can have disagreements in mature ways, I don't think getting upset that people are disappointed and lashing out on them is mature in any way, come on guys.

Besides that, we have more DLC packs coming in and I think even though we have to wait, it would be worth it everyone.

So I actually feel the opposite on a lot of this. I feel like the stage isn't the strong point but rather the character. The Stage looks... Unique, and while unique isn't bad (and I don't necessarily think the stage is bad per say), this one in particular doesn't look that great. The layouts from one transition to another aren't a whole lot different (aside from the starting one, and Bride of Eldin 2.0), and the transition taking 2 minutes, isn't awful but I like to play with stage morph on at times and set to random, so for it to take 8 minutes to get to the final area of the stage, is kinda lame, as it may not even happen (personal problem i know, but it still effects my outlook on it as smash was designed with customization in mind).

As for Edelgard (oops I mean Byleth), I couldn't be happier (unless I got my most wanted pick, Neku). It's not like i don't get peoples frustration with another FE character, I just feel people being upset with this character isn't for the right reasons. You shouldn't hate the character just for being from the same series. Yes, a lot of FE character in the game are pretty similar, but this one isn't similar in any capacity, and the sword user argument doesn't really work for this character as their moveset is split almost evenly between 4 different weapons. I also am glad for this inclusion because it brings the FE character count from an awkward 7 to a perfect 8 (I also doubt we will get any more FE characters because of this, not that they'd do that again with the reception it got anyways). I also love it because it makes all the people who wanted a Three Houses rep in the game satisfied. literally all of them. I was admittedly disappointed when I first saw Byleth (I wanted Edelgard, so I was instantly like "whelp, thats not happening"), But once they revealed the 4 weapons (one of which was an axe, which is what I wanted Edelgard to use) I got a little happier, as it was closer to what I wanted, only for it to later be shown that Edelgard, and the other House representatives were Alts (the Edelgard one has amazing detail too!) thus satisfying fans of all the main characters in that game.

Yes, this was a marketing move by nintendo and Sakurai (Nintendo didn't force him, and i find it funny when people say that they did.), but tbf, it worked well in the past (except for Corrin) and not only does it appeal to three houses fans, but it promotes the game too, and that's all smash really is at the end of the day, a tool for promotion (a damn good one too).

So yeah, TLDR: I think it's great they added this character to smash, and I feel whats sad is how negative people are being over it, when it's as far from the problem that it could be. It's like just cuz it's got the FE IP attached to it, everyone hates it which is ridiculous. If it was the same moveset on a different character no one would be upset, and thats what I find truly frustrating about this whole thing. I also disagree with your statement about fans of FE antagonizing people who are upset over this, as all I see is the opposite. People have been threatening Nintendo and Sakurai over this, as well as people who speak up to defend the characters inclusion. It's gotten to be so toxic that im seriously starting to have a lot less respect for the smash community. what happens when their all done making DLC and theres no Sora or Master Chief? I don't doubt that theres people being negative to one another in both parties by any means, but I do think it's a much larger problem with people who dislike it (maybe cuz theres more of you guys it's more noticed? idk). Either way I agree that it's unnecessary from either side, and at the end of the day, it's a fun game and we should all just have fun (and seriously, we should be glad that it's getting new content at all. That poor tired man).

There's always going to be division and disagreements when a character is released, nothing new. It's a bit more pronounced being a FE character, but it will blow over and it will be businessa s usual in terms of speculation.



Common knowledge that DK in the 90's was critically acclaimed and commercially successful. But many don't realise that the Donkey Kong Country trilogy gave the SNES the second wind that it needed with Sega and Playstation on the horizon with new consoles. From a historical perspective it was crucial to Nintendo's fortunes.

FE has only further built popularity with the tactial RPG genre in the West and to be fair in general. It has been one of Nintendo's key franchises in recent times. There are many variables but both are important, have been very successful for Nintendo and have achieved great things respectively. For a pure comparison right now for me DK shades it, but at the same time we'll look back at FE in 15-20 years and it will be viewed similarly. FE is what it is now just like DK was in the mid to late 90's.

I agree, I think it'll all be forgotten in due time, though it's a little excessive right now. My big complaint about this argument is that people keep arguing whether FE is more important than DK, Metroid, ect., but that's not really what it's about. It has to do with what characters are big, sell well, and whether that franchise is even relevant at all. I agree with a lot of your statement and am mostly just adding on, but I do think it's something worth mentioning. DK is kinda viewed as a retro series now, rarely getting new installments (hopefully that will change soon, with metroid too), and the big difference that people always forget when comparing FE to these other games, is FE has a MASSIVE list of important characters to the games, and it's also a massive series that needs to be properly represented in a relevant way, meaning it needs newer characters every now and then to help sell the newer games. This also means that it will naturally have more characters than most game series (i.e. no Dixie Kong, Krusha, Chunky Kong, etc.). While some of these losses are sad, it's just part of the way they have to market things. They aren't going to ever stop adding FE characters to Smash, but I do believe we wont ever have any more than 8 at a given time. I see them replacing older, not as memorable ones, like Corrin or maybe Marth and Ike (Marth might be an exception due to how big a character he is in the series, but you get the idea). and who knows, maybe in later games, DK, Zelda and metroid will get up to the same amount.

 

[KayaMarley]

-oops double post!-

 

[Tortfeasor]

One of the key differences between FE and other series is that with FE, you pretty much always get a new protagonist and supporting characters each game. With other franchises, its at least the same protagonist throughout. Simply put, other franchises have limited characters to draw on while FE has a potentially inexhaustable supply of new characters that are all important only for the reason they are in the most recent instalment. I think people chafe at the idea that their preferred characters have appeared in multiple or seminal games, yet don't get recognized, whereas a FE character just has to appear once and they're in.

I think it would be fair to say Nintendo and Sakurai have generally avoided adding one-shot characters to Smash and instead focus on the characters truly representative for their respective franchises. For example, Legend of Zelda has a storied history and there are plenty of unique characters to draw on for Smash fighters. But, instead they have chosen only those characters that represent the franchise; Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Admittedly, there's a bit of a one-off feel to Sheik and Young Link, but Ultimate is constrained by the "Everyone is Here" philosophy, so they had to be in the game. At the end of the day, characters like Midna, Agahnim, Ghirahim, and the Champions are important to their respective games, but to the franchise as a whole? Not really, so they weren't and likely won't ever be added.

Granted, the FE series has generally eschewed the Nintendo tradition of having a "main" character or cast of characters. The only analogous situations are those of Hero and Cloud, where their franchises generally have a new cast each iteration. But, it's a bit more complicated in that they are third party characters, so anything more than one character was never going to happen. I just hope that if there is a new Smash game and they decide to trim the roster, that more though is put into how to represent FE as a whole, rather than just throw in a character from each new FE game.

I think something that hasn't really been touched on much is also that the FE fighters don't have much in the way of personality. To me, one of the endearing things about Smash is how the developers brought each fighter's unique personality into the game. For example, just take a moment to look at K. Rool's animations and poses or how DK's eyes pop out of his head when he's hit. It's those touches that make the characters more expressive and the game a bit more fun. The FE fighters on the other hand are wanting in that regard. I appreciate those characters are sort of meant to be blank slates as they represent the player, but you can only fight so many stoic anime swordspersons before it gets kind of boring.

I'm not sure if anyone has had a similar experience, but for me it seems like the majority of characters I fight online are swordspersons. So, for me, it's not really all that exciting to have another one added to the mix. I guess the upside is that the only people who will likely stick with Byleth are already maining a swordsperson anyway. And really, if the 5th fighter was someone different (and didn't use a sword), I doubt things would change much regardless.

This discussion is probably moot anyway, seeing as how it is unlikely a new FE game will be released before Fighter's Pass 2 is finished.

 

[Arthur97]

One of the key differences between FE and other series is that with FE, you pretty much always get a new protagonist and supporting characters each game. With other franchises, its at least the same protagonist throughout. Simply put, other franchises have limited characters to draw on while FE has a potentially inexhaustable supply of new characters that are all important only for the reason they are in the most recent instalment. I think people chafe at the idea that their preferred characters have appeared in multiple or seminal games, yet don't get recognized, whereas a FE character just has to appear once and they're in.

I think it would be fair to say Nintendo and Sakurai have generally avoided adding one-shot characters to Smash and instead focus on the characters truly representative for their respective franchises. For example, Legend of Zelda has a storied history and there are plenty of unique characters to draw on for Smash fighters. But, instead they have chosen only those characters that represent the franchise; Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Admittedly, there's a bit of a one-off feel to Sheik and Young Link, but Ultimate is constrained by the "Everyone is Here" philosophy, so they had to be in the game. At the end of the day, characters like Midna, Agahnim, Ghirahim, and the Champions are important to their respective games, but to the franchise as a whole? Not really, so they weren't and likely won't ever be added.

Granted, the FE series has generally eschewed the Nintendo tradition of having a "main" character or cast of characters. The only analogous situations are those of Hero and Cloud, where their franchises generally have a new cast each iteration. But, it's a bit more complicated in that they are third party characters, so anything more than one character was never going to happen. I just hope that if there is a new Smash game and they decide to trim the roster, that more though is put into how to represent FE as a whole, rather than just throw in a character from each new FE game.

I think something that hasn't really been touched on much is also that the FE fighters don't have much in the way of personality. To me, one of the endearing things about Smash is how the developers brought each fighter's unique personality into the game. For example, just take a moment to look at K. Rool's animations and poses or how DK's eyes pop out of his head when he's hit. It's those touches that make the characters more expressive and the game a bit more fun. The FE fighters on the other hand are wanting in that regard. I appreciate those characters are sort of meant to be blank slates as they represent the player, but you can only fight so many stoic anime swordspersons before it gets kind of boring.

I'm not sure if anyone has had a similar experience, but for me it seems like the majority of characters I fight online are swordspersons. So, for me, it's not really all that exciting to have another one added to the mix. I guess the upside is that the only people who will likely stick with Byleth are already maining a swordsperson anyway. And really, if the 5th fighter was someone different (and didn't use a sword), I doubt things would change much regardless.

This discussion is probably moot anyway, seeing as how it is unlikely a new FE game will be released before Fighter's Pass 2 is finished.

Young Link was actually in two games, and Sheik was in Smash 4, so she didn't need Everyone is Here to make the cut.

Xenoblade Chronicles is also an exception.

 

[Tortfeasor]

Young Link was actually in two games, and Sheik was in Smash 4, so she didn't need Everyone is Here to make the cut.

Xenoblade Chronicles is also an exception.

Yes, I forgot about Xenoblade Chronicles (haven't played either). While I have no feelings on whether Rex or another character should be added, it does seem strange how FE was preferred over XbC.

I am aware Young Link, as seen in Smash, was in two games. My comment that he has a "one-off feel" was merely meant to express that Young Link is merely just one of many representations we've seen of Link and is specific to the OoT and MM era. When Young Link was added in Melee, it was really just because OoT and MM were still fairly recent games. Once Young Link lost some relevance, he was removed in Brawl in favour of Toon Link. Toon Link, I would argue, at least differs in that he isn't just a specific Link and represents a number of different games and a different style of Link.

Sheik has been present in each game since Melee either as a Zelda's transformation or a character in her own right. Doesn't change the fact she is a one-off character as she appeared in only one game from the core franchise. There likely numerous reasons she continues to be in Smash (popularity, unique moves, etc.), but I would hazard a guess that her longevity is at least in part due to the fact she's just always been in Smash since Melee. If for example, they had removed her as Zelda's Down-B in Brawl and she wasn't a fighter in her own right, who knows if she'd have made it into Smash 4 on her own.

 

[Arthur97]

Yes, I forgot about Xenoblade Chronicles (haven't played either). While I have no feelings on whether Rex or another character should be added, it does seem strange how FE was preferred over XbC.

I am aware Young Link, as seen in Smash, was in two games. My comment that he has a "one-off feel" was merely meant to express that Young Link is merely just one of many representations we've seen of Link and is specific to the OoT and MM era. When Young Link was added in Melee, it was really just because OoT and MM were still fairly recent games. Once Young Link lost some relevance, he was removed in Brawl in favour of Toon Link. Toon Link, I would argue, at least differs in that he isn't just a specific Link and represents a number of different games and a different style of Link.

Sheik has been present in each game since Melee either as a Zelda's transformation or a character in her own right. Doesn't change the fact she is a one-off character as she appeared in only one game from the core franchise. There likely numerous reasons she continues to be in Smash (popularity, unique moves, etc.), but I would hazard a guess that her longevity is at least in part due to the fact she's just always been in Smash since Melee. If for example, they had removed her as Zelda's Down-B in Brawl and she wasn't a fighter in her own right, who knows if she'd have made it into Smash 4 on her own.

I thought your point was about one-off Zelda characters and meant Young Link as being one such when he was in OoT and MM (which they really could have used at least for some cosmetics more).

Sheik is really the case that one-offs are doable. I would say Midna would be a good choice even though she's a one-off. She's well liked and has a very unique look. I'd also say Impa is a good choice as she isn't a one off. Though, let's maybe get an accurate Ganondorf while we're at it.

Well, Xenoblade is no FE, but it does seem to be Nintendo's answer to having a dedicated (non-tactical) RPG series which is nice. Though, the lack of RPGs may be one reason their casts are usually fairly stable. Well, a lot of the Links and Zeldas are technically different, but they generally fill similar roles.

 

[Xelrog]

Yes, I forgot about Xenoblade Chronicles (haven't played either). While I have no feelings on whether Rex or another character should be added, it does seem strange how FE was preferred over XbC.

FE is a bigger franchise with more games and more fans than XbC. It's not strange in the least.

That said, FE is still way out of balance compared to the other franchises repped in Smash. Sakurai talking like 17 games is a lot, compared to... how many dozens, maybe hundreds, have Mario and Pokemon had?

 

[Lenidem]

FE is a bigger franchise with more games and more fans than XbC. It's not strange in the least.

That said, FE is still way out of balance compared to the other franchises repped in Smash. Sakurai talking like 17 games is a lot, compared to... how many dozens, maybe hundreds, have Mario and Pokemon had?

And a good part of this ''bigness'' is due to Smash.

 

[Tortfeasor]

FE is a bigger franchise with more games and more fans than XbC. It's not strange in the least.

That said, FE is still way out of balance compared to the other franchises repped in Smash. Sakurai talking like 17 games is a lot, compared to... how many dozens, maybe hundreds, have Mario and Pokemon had?

Yes, I meant more strange in the sense that XbC2 is a recent game that I'd expect would also benefit from the marketing boost of having Rex or someone else as a fighter in Smash.

I appreciate that Sakurai seems to have the final say of who gets in and he has stated he bases his decisions over who he can make interesting moves around, but at launch he added Chrom as another clone of Marth rather than Rex. It's odd that if interesting moves are what Sakurai looks for, Marth #4 gets in before other anticipated characters.

I'm not arguing that FE is somehow not deserving of representation. I don't even take much issue with the number of FE characters. It's just that other characters that could potentially have interesting moves of playstyles get overlooked while FE characters seemingly have a lower bar to inclusion. If each FE fighter was substantially different in terms of their moves, playstyle, and personality, I don't believe there would be nearly as much ire. That's really what I find strange.

Also, I don't believe a strict number of games approach is either what Sakurai considers or should be the metric of what determines number of slots a franchise gets in the roster. With a couple exceptions (Dr. Mario and Daisy), the Mario franchise characters are all unique in terms of their moves and styles and they are all brimming with personality. Some might argue Mario characters are over-represented, but, at least to me it never feels stale, because each new character is something unique. The FE choices on the other hand, just feels bland and samey by comparison. If the same variety was present with the FE portion of the roster, things would likely be different.

And compared to other franchises, 17 games for FE is a lot. Metroid is something like 11 unique games, but with only 3 characters. LoZ has something like 18 games released, but 6 characters. Star Fox with 8 unique games has 3 characters. The point being, number of games doesn't, nor shouldn't factor into whether a character gets in. Sakurai doesn't seem to consider number of games to be that important apparently either.

I appreciate that at least with Byleth, s/he is not another clone and they seem to have put in quite a bit of work to differentiate him from the other FE characters. I just hope that when I fight Byleth it feels different and fresh, rather than yet another character built around Nair, Fair, and Side-B.

 

[Perkilator]

Personally, if I were in charge of the Vol. 1 DLC, it would go like this:

FP1: Jill Valentine
FP2:
FP3:
FP4: Arle Nadja
FP5:

And THEN I'd include a TH character in Vol. 2 (specifically, Claude von Riegan).

 

[Xelrog]

I appreciate that Sakurai seems to have the final say of who gets in and he has stated he bases his decisions over who he can make interesting moves around, but at launch he added Chrom as another clone of Marth rather than Rex. It's odd that if interesting moves are what Sakurai looks for, Marth #4 gets in before other anticipated characters.

Chrom is an echo, so that comparison doesn't really work. Or are we talking about Rex as a Shulk echo?

 

[meleebrawler]

And a good part of this ''bigness'' is due to Smash.

We don't need loan sharks in here, thanks. The help Fire Emblem got from Smash was significant, but often exaggerated. Or have we forgotten how some people here were trying to dismiss it as niche a few minutes ago?

In the earlier days, Fire Emblem games actually tended to spend two games in one universe. So Marth and Ike star in two games, and Roy eventually comes back to represent part of the GBA era (sorry, Sacred Stones), after Lyn partially covers his absence. Then boom, Awakening happens and propels the series to new heights that Smash ultimately failed to do, and now the games are successful enough you'd have to be crazy or spite-filled enough not to consider. Plus, Awakening actually takes place in the same universe as Marth's games, just many years later, making him significant for three games.

But if you really want Fire Emblem characters to not just represent specific entries, then get ready for the community's reaction to the combination of Fire Emblem and "mobile game".

 

[Arthur97]

Yes, Smash helped it, but, yeah, it's also true that Awakening was what truly boosted it into what it is today. However, it likely would not have been able to do so without Smash to some degree (at the very least for helping bring it to the West). Though, it should also be remembered that several games in the series released after Melee, and the series was on its proverbial last leg before Awakening.

So, how much is Smash truly responsible for Fire Emblem's success? It's hard to say. It helped bring it to the West, so it certainly helped, but the series didn't do so well in the following years. Smash alone is not necessarily a recipe for success. Had things gone differently and Awakening flopped, Marth and Ike in Smash may have served as representatives to a dead series.

 

[KayaMarley]

One of the key differences between FE and other series is that with FE, you pretty much always get a new protagonist and supporting characters each game. With other franchises, its at least the same protagonist throughout. Simply put, other franchises have limited characters to draw on while FE has a potentially inexhaustable supply of new characters that are all important only for the reason they are in the most recent instalment. I think people chafe at the idea that their preferred characters have appeared in multiple or seminal games, yet don't get recognized, whereas a FE character just has to appear once and they're in.

I think it would be fair to say Nintendo and Sakurai have generally avoided adding one-shot characters to Smash and instead focus on the characters truly representative for their respective franchises. For example, Legend of Zelda has a storied history and there are plenty of unique characters to draw on for Smash fighters. But, instead they have chosen only those characters that represent the franchise; Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf. Admittedly, there's a bit of a one-off feel to Sheik and Young Link, but Ultimate is constrained by the "Everyone is Here" philosophy, so they had to be in the game. At the end of the day, characters like Midna, Agahnim, Ghirahim, and the Champions are important to their respective games, but to the franchise as a whole? Not really, so they weren't and likely won't ever be added.

Granted, the FE series has generally eschewed the Nintendo tradition of having a "main" character or cast of characters. The only analogous situations are those of Hero and Cloud, where their franchises generally have a new cast each iteration. But, it's a bit more complicated in that they are third party characters, so anything more than one character was never going to happen. I just hope that if there is a new Smash game and they decide to trim the roster, that more though is put into how to represent FE as a whole, rather than just throw in a character from each new FE game.

I think something that hasn't really been touched on much is also that the FE fighters don't have much in the way of personality. To me, one of the endearing things about Smash is how the developers brought each fighter's unique personality into the game. For example, just take a moment to look at K. Rool's animations and poses or how DK's eyes pop out of his head when he's hit. It's those touches that make the characters more expressive and the game a bit more fun. The FE fighters on the other hand are wanting in that regard. I appreciate those characters are sort of meant to be blank slates as they represent the player, but you can only fight so many stoic anime swordspersons before it gets kind of boring.

I'm not sure if anyone has had a similar experience, but for me it seems like the majority of characters I fight online are swordspersons. So, for me, it's not really all that exciting to have another one added to the mix. I guess the upside is that the only people who will likely stick with Byleth are already maining a swordsperson anyway. And really, if the 5th fighter was someone different (and didn't use a sword), I doubt things would change much regardless.

This discussion is probably moot anyway, seeing as how it is unlikely a new FE game will be released before Fighter's Pass 2 is finished.

I agree with you on a lot of what your saying, and the only real thing i have to disagree on is that FE is responsible for the lack of other characters getting included. I more or less said this already in a different post, but I feel since the inclusion of 8-player smash, they have slowly been working towards 8 FE characters, which is totally fine. I don't feel this is the reason we arent getting characters like Dixie and Midna or Zant, but rather they just didn't feel like they were as necessary of an inclusion. I really don't know why they would feel that way, but that's just the feeling I get kinda. I do think that they could easily add more characters if they wanted (hence the DLC) from these other franchises, but I don't think it's a problem of needing a roster reset/trim. I see that idea a lot, and while there's characters I feel make no sense being there (Mii's, Wii Fit, Duck Hunt), I do feel it isn't whats needed. it never hurts to have more characters, sure the production scale gets larger, but they have the money, resources and people for it, so theoretically that shouldn't be a problem, especially considering how big a deal Smash Bros. is for their company marketing wise. They can always add these characters later, and most likely will. I think part of their decision on not having characters like skull kid, midna, and some others, is because they need iconic characters for Assist Trophies and Spirits as well. I think it's simply a matter of what they feel works best as what, and even if we as the players don't agree with that, that's just the decision that was made and we have to except that.

 

[Lenidem]

We don't need loan sharks in here, thanks.

I'm sorry, English is not my first language, I don't know this expression and don't understand what you mean, even with a translator.

Or have we forgotten how some people here were trying to dismiss it as niche a few minutes ago?

I have not, but I never said myself it was (or was not) niche.

The help Fire Emblem got from Smash was significant, but often exaggerated.

How many people were introduced to Fire Emblem via Roy and Marth in Melee, or Marth and Ike in Brawl? Almost all European and American gamers. I'm not saying Fire Emblem games are not good, or that their success is entirely due to Smash. But let's imagine two alternate realities, one where F-Zero is still alive and Falcon is still it's only playable character in Smash, and another one where it's alive and every Smash entry since Brawl introduced at least one F-Zero racer as a playable fighter. Now I'm not saying this hypothetical F-Zero would reach the same success Fire Emblem currently has. But do you seriously believe the sales of the second case would not outpass by far those of the first one?

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm sorry, English is not my first language, I don't know this expression and don't understand what you mean, even with a translator. I have not, but I never said myself it was (or was not) niche.

How many people were introduced to Fire Emblem via Roy and Marth in Melee, or Marth and Ike in Brawl? Almost all European and American gamers. I'm not saying Fire Emblem games are not good, or that their success is entirely due to Smash. But let's imagine two alternate realities, one where F-Zero is still alive and Falcon is still it's only playable character in Smash, and another one where it's alive and every Smash entry since Brawl introduced at least one F-Zero racer as a playable fighter. Now I'm not saying this hypothetical F-Zero would reach the same success Fire Emblem currently has. But do you seriously believe the sales of the second case would not outpass by far those of the first one?

Considering how blisteringly hard F-Zero games are, not really. They are the exact opposite of accessible. Not even a TV show helped.

Loan sharks thrive on getting people in debt and then threatening you for payment in a variety of legal, emotional or physical ways, or in the less professional manner, leveraging that debt to get you to do things they want you to do. When you keep bringing up how Smash helped Fire Emblem, I get the impression you think of this as some sort of debt it owes the former, and it gives you or other fans of Smash the right to request that it does not get so much content in it.

I never implied you specifically said the series was niche, but the fact remains there is a grain of truth to others saying that, even if it's in bad faith. If Awakening didn't happen, it's very likely there would not be much Fire Emblem content afterwards. Smash can help, but in the end it's up to the series itself to sell under it's own merits.

 

[Lenidem]

I

Considering how blisteringly hard F-Zero games are, not really. They are the exact opposite of accessible. Not even a TV show helped.

Loan sharks thrive on getting people in debt and then threatening you for payment in a variety of legal, emotional or physical ways, or in the less professional manner, leveraging that debt to get you to do things they want you to do. When you keep bringing up how Smash helped Fire Emblem, I get the impression you think of this as some sort of debt it owes the former, and it gives you or other fans of Smash the right to request that it does not get so much content in it.

I never implied you specifically said the series was niche, but the fact remains there is a grain of truth to others saying that, even if it's in bad faith. If Awakening didn't happen, it's very likely there would not be much Fire Emblem content afterwards. Smash can help, but in the end it's up to the series itself to sell under it's own merits.

I see. What I mean is: a part of Fire Emblem's success is due to FE characters staring in Smash, so justify more FE in Smash by the franchise's succes is kind of a loop.

Yes, F-Zero was too hard (at least GX was), that's just a random example. You can replace it by any franchise.

 

[Tortfeasor]

I agree with you on a lot of what your saying, and the only real thing i have to disagree on is that FE is responsible for the lack of other characters getting included. I more or less said this already in a different post, but I feel since the inclusion of 8-player smash, they have slowly been working towards 8 FE characters, which is totally fine. I don't feel this is the reason we arent getting characters like Dixie and Midna or Zant, but rather they just didn't feel like they were as necessary of an inclusion. I really don't know why they would feel that way, but that's just the feeling I get kinda. I do think that they could easily add more characters if they wanted (hence the DLC) from these other franchises, but I don't think it's a problem of needing a roster reset/trim. I see that idea a lot, and while there's characters I feel make no sense being there (Mii's, Wii Fit, Duck Hunt), I do feel it isn't whats needed. it never hurts to have more characters, sure the production scale gets larger, but they have the money, resources and people for it, so theoretically that shouldn't be a problem, especially considering how big a deal Smash Bros. is for their company marketing wise. They can always add these characters later, and most likely will. I think part of their decision on not having characters like skull kid, midna, and some others, is because they need iconic characters for Assist Trophies and Spirits as well. I think it's simply a matter of what they feel works best as what, and even if we as the players don't agree with that, that's just the decision that was made and we have to except that.

I agree that the inclusion of FE characters isn't necessarily the driving force behind other characters being excluded. There are undoubtedly a lot of factors that go into choosing characters for Smash, especially the later instalments. Whether the character can make an interesting moveset, is fun to play, is importance to Nintendo and/or gaming, importance to their franchise, relevance, popularity, marketing, and history within the Smash series itself likely all get considered when it comes time to choose fighters. Some or all these factors might serve to cause a character to be included or excluded.

My point was really that importance to the franchise has been a big factor and, with a couple exceptions and especially since Brawl, characters from longstanding franchises who only appear in one or two games aren't generally made into fighters. FE seems to buck this trend. Probably the biggest reason is that the cast is not constant like Mario, LoZ, Metroid, Star Fox, etc. There is simply no equivalent to a Link or Samus, or a Ganondorf or Ridley for example. With FE all you can really do is include what are essentially one-off characters, because that's really all there are. FE is certainly relevant, important to Nintendo, popular, and benefits from the marketing, so it's natural FE gets a few characters.

That being said, time is also a big factor in choosing characters. There are only so many developmental resources and they have to be allocated to creating fighters, stages, and other content. I assume that when development starts, they have an estimated release and they budget their time accordingly. If they know they only have time to create X number of new fighters, they must cut potential candidates in favour of others. I would never say "Chrom stole [insert character]'s spot," but I would say they new they had time to add a fighter and they chose Chrom, for various reasons, over other candidates.

Chrom is an echo, so that comparison doesn't really work. Or are we talking about Rex as a Shulk echo?

I assume you mean that Chrom (or any other echo) isn't a fair comparison as they take less resources to create compared to starting from scratch. I suppose whether the comparison is fair depends on how echo fighters are chosen and whether the decision was based on resource constraints.

If "interestingness," for lack of a word, is what Sakurai himself looks for and Chrom was chosen before the decision was made to make him an echo, it's fair to compare him to any other potential fighter. For example, they may have just wanted Chrom and then decided to make him an echo, regardless of any time constraints. If resources don't factor into the decision, Chrom being an echo is irrelevant.

If they knew they only had a limited amount of time and could only make an echo fighter, then it's only fair to compare him other potential echo fighters. If there aren't enough resources to create unique moves and animations, you're right that you can't compare an echo to any and all potential fighters. I used Rex as example as I assume he would be an echo of Shulk and was in an analogous situation to the FE characters, though a big caveat would be that I know virtually nothing about the XbC series and I'm indifferent when it comes to adding him.

Edit: I apologize for picking on Chrom. I'm just using him as an example as he best exemplifies the fatigue some feel over the more recent FE additions to the roster.

 

[KayaMarley]

I agree that the inclusion of FE characters isn't necessarily the driving force behind other characters being excluded. There are undoubtedly a lot of factors that go into choosing characters for Smash, especially the later instalments. Whether the character can make an interesting moveset, is fun to play, is importance to Nintendo and/or gaming, importance to their franchise, relevance, popularity, marketing, and history within the Smash series itself likely all get considered when it comes time to choose fighters. Some or all these factors might serve to cause a character to be included or excluded.

My point was really that importance to the franchise has been a big factor and, with a couple exceptions and especially since Brawl, characters from longstanding franchises who only appear in one or two games aren't generally made into fighters. FE seems to buck this trend. Probably the biggest reason is that the cast is not constant like Mario, LoZ, Metroid, Star Fox, etc. There is simply no equivalent to a Link or Samus, or a Ganondorf or Ridley for example. With FE all you can really do is include what are essentially one-off characters, because that's really all there are. FE is certainly relevant, important to Nintendo, popular, and benefits from the marketing, so it's natural FE gets a few characters.

That being said, time is also a big factor in choosing characters. There are only so many developmental resources and they have to be allocated to creating fighters, stages, and other content. I assume that when development starts, they have an estimated release and they budget their time accordingly. If they know they only have time to create X number of new fighters, they must cut potential candidates in favour of others. I would never say "Chrom stole [insert character]'s spot," but I would say they new they had time to add a fighter and they chose Chrom, for various reasons, over other candidates.



I assume you mean that Chrom (or any other echo) isn't a fair comparison as they take less resources to create compared to starting from scratch. I suppose whether the comparison is fair depends on how echo fighters are chosen and whether the decision was based on resource constraints.

If "interestingness," for lack of a word, is what Sakurai himself looks for and Chrom was chosen before the decision was made to make him an echo, it's fair to compare him to any other potential fighter. For example, they may have just wanted Chrom and then decided to make him an echo, regardless of any time constraints. If resources don't factor into the decision, Chrom being an echo is irrelevant.

If they knew they only had a limited amount of time and could only make an echo fighter, then it's only fair to compare him other potential echo fighters. If there aren't enough resources to create unique moves and animations, you're right that you can't compare an echo to any and all potential fighters. I used Rex as example as I assume he would be an echo of Shulk and was in an analogous situation to the FE characters, though a big caveat would be that I know virtually nothing about the XbC series and I'm indifferent when it comes to adding him.

Edit: I apologize for picking on Chrom. I'm just using him as an example as he best exemplifies the fatigue some feel over the more recent FE additions to the roster.

hmm.. i don't really see how smash has been home to mainly long standing characters. I think it's more about Icons for that series then a characters relevance (hence why Dixie isnt in yet). Take the Zelda roster for example since it was brought up. The Zelda series being as large as it is has so many fan favorites for both characters and games that they need to bring some from the ones that hold most significance. This is why we have Sheik, Young Link, and Ganondorf who represent OoT, Toon Link who represents Wind Waker, BotW Link reping BotW of course, and Zelda for ALBW. All of these characters (other than Young Link and Ganondorf) have had only one game, so it's actually no different than Fire Emblem. I think why zelda doesnt have as many characters when you compare it like this (since in these terms they would be equal), while the Zelda series has a lot of characters, the ones that are truly iconic from the series are ones that get repeats or altered forms from game to game, so rather than having repeat characters that are slightly different, they take the ones that are most representative of the series as a whole, and leave it at that. Even though Link, Young Link, and Toon Link are all the same character in some regard, they are vastly different from one another and hold different significance in era's of gaming history. While there are plenty more they could choose (Wolf Link & Midna, Zant, Vaati, etc.) i think it's just a matter of them being satisfied with the playable characters from that series and wanting to save some for the Assist Trophies and Spirits. kinda lame, but oh well, i get it (i really wanted Zant). I feel like this is why FE gets so many characters, its because they aren't satisfied with the amount of iconic FE characters being represented. and yeah, i wouldn't really count any echos towards being responsible for time restraints, since they most likely decided on what characters were going to be what pretty early on. While characters do inevitably get cut, I would be really surprised if that had anything at all to do with it. I also feel this is why there are so many echo's for FE, as there are lots of similarities between the different iconic characters, and rather than saying "in that case let's pass on them" its more of a "well we can do that pretty easily and it doesn't take too much time, so we might as well make the fans of those characters happy."

I think a lot of smash's production from the outside gets looked at as this slippery slope, where they are trying to analyze what characters would be best from all these different angles, but I really don't think that's the case at all. I get the feeling they just kinda know what characters they want, and try to do what they can with the time they have. What we as fans and consumers want is important to them, but I don't really think it makes too much of a difference in the grand scheme of things. like every now and then we get tossed a bone, like Ridley or K. Rool, but things like that should never be expected, especially from a company that for years has shunned the very idea of outside recommendations and ideas. Nintendo likes to keep to themselves and have only recently actually started listening to what others might want. Love these guys though, but yeah, they could do with a suggestion forum lmao (where's our special edition switch's and Joy-cons, and n64 VC! lol).

 

[KingofUSA85]

was the community ever united? I don't ever recall it was.

 

[Oddball]

was the community ever united? I don't ever recall it was.

It was once.

Then Melee came out.

 

[KingofUSA85]

It was once.

Then Melee came out.

I'd rather have more than 12 playable characters than a united community but hey that's just me.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

At this point it doesn't really matter what you think of Byleth being in Smash because that character gameplay-wise is hot trash. Her moves are slow, inconsistent, and/or don't cover enough surface area to protect her. On top of that many of her attacks are super punishable.

 

[meleebrawler]

At this point it doesn't really matter what you think of Byleth being in Smash because that character gameplay-wise is hot trash. Her moves are slow, inconsistent, and/or don't cover enough surface area to protect her. On top of that many of her attacks are super punishable.

Actually it does matter. If Byleth is bad we get to call him/her a pointless addition. If he/she is good we get to accuse the devs of bias and pay-to-win.

 

[Extremmefan]

I have mixed (though fairly neutral) opinions about Byleth's inclusion personally, but my lord the reception was extreme on both sides. If I had to draw a comparison, it felt like a shorter-term Pokemon Sword/Shield National Dex controversy, with both sides being just as loud, obnoxious, and generally extreme (as evidenced by aforementioned points). Even afterwards the public community feels similarly divided.

But again personally I'm a middle man to Byleth themselves.
On one hand yea I do get how boring it is to essentially just get blank slates that don't really have much of a character that pops out ingame (and yes I am referring to Robin and Corrin there, because while the "Marths", sans Roy somewhat, are all pretty stoic they still have more of a character that way so comparing them to Byleth is not accurate at all imo), or how it feels like other series don't get as much even though it feels like they're important enough to do so (namely from the Zelda and Xenoblade sides there), or how "insincere" a pick this promotional feels (as a Pokemon fan whose favorite games got cucked by the next gen solely because of "relevancy", I know that feel all too well).
But on the other hand, keeping up with the leak and speculation scenes lowkey made me expect it (as it hinted towards a well-kept fighter, and a second-party like FE definitely fitted the bill ontop of never skipping a beat there), plus they represent a game that practically united the FE community (which's almost a miracle after Fates, to say the least), ontop of FE never feeling complete representation-wise because it has a brand new selection to pick from nearly every game (or every two games previously) which made it kind of expectable imo (again this is coming from a Pokemon fan, and Pokemon does that too since every new nonremake main game it always has a new selection of 'mons to pick from… as much as I wish they'd look back on the still-included-in-newer-games past 'mons a little more like they used to in Brawl for Pokemon Trainer).

However the way both sides of the community took it, on social media at least, honestly got on my nerves. One side felt like constant personal ranting for a month, while the other was relentless selfcentered egoistical memery, so in turn both failed to just consider the other's point of view and thus no one felt like calming the scene (and the few that I've seen try to take a reasonable approach to it either got ignored, refused to take the other side's point of view into account in their arguments which in turn just fanned the flames further, or were spammed by people of the opposite side either ranting or memeing, if not two of those at the same time). Doesn't help that as always there were still bad eggs who thought extreme measures like death threats would solve anything either. I don't feel like I'm joking when I say it felt like a hashtag-less, shorter lived (if only because it was a much shorter time until release) National Dex controversy. Especially since just like it it still left remnants afterwards (though thankfully not as severe as far as I know).

However I am looking forward to Pass 2 helping people forget the controversy altogether, unlike how long people went on being mad after Corrin and Bayonetta were announced for 4's final DLC up until Ultimate was teased. The Mii costumes already helped a bit there too, especially the Cuphead Mii costume taking away a bit of the spotlight so it doesn't get too heated. Imo it's only a matter of time until it fully passes, and then we'll be back to the same state of the community as before Byleth.

 

[Malkior7]

For me there was a couple reasons

I have never played a Fire Emblem as turn based strategy games aren't my cup of tea so in general FE characters added after Marth and Roy in Melee were always just 'meh' to me.

Once it got to the 7th FE character in SSB4 it started feeling saturated and that feeling isn't exclusive to FE either I feel the same about Pokemon and Mario too (which is why I was against Incineroar being in during the times of the Kencineroar leaks) which are franchises I do play religiously.

And lastly the first 4 packs all were 3rd party and fairly iconic characters from unrepresented iconic franchises to some degree or another and once it got to the 4th DLC being that way there wasn't much reason to think the 5th wouldn't be the same and so when it got revealed to be Byleth with the expectations that were raised it just makes it an underwhelming reveal. I'm certain that if Byleth was the 1st or 2nd in the DLC the reveal would have been very different.

That being said 'underwhelming' is basically all I felt about it because there is a Second Pass I can come out of this with the fact that Byleth is out of the way and the next 6 are 99% certain not to be a FE character.

Welp that's all from me ~Peridot thumbs up~