Last DLC Pack has divided the community.

[staindgrey]

Completely depends on how you define it. Niche to me applies to a series or product favored by a minority audience compared to the wider gaming audience. It might not seem as niche when you compare it to other JRPGs, but compare it to games as a whole and it's not as widespread. Do the same with Fire Emblem, a series that has only broken 1 million sales with three games (One of those times because the story was split into multiple games) in it's 17 game series. It might be pretty popular in Tactical RPG circles or even just Nintendo circles, but compare it to the wider world of video games and it's a drop in the bucket by comparison especially outside of Japan where it only garnered interest because of Smash introducing characters to us. Persona and Fire Emblem are gaining popularity, and I'm glad, they're both good series and frankly I'd be happy if everyone could play at least one of the games in each franchise, but they're not household names the way that Mario, Zelda, Final Fantasy, or Dragon Quest are. (DQ more in Japan than the US, where it's far more popular than FF)

Firstly, each of the games in Fates's two-set broke a million. The final sales ended up just short of 3 million for both combined, and that's despite the negative word of mouth it maintained after release. Also, FE Warriors sold over a million despite its negative reaction from fans due to its roster, Three Houses broke a million in its very first weekend, and I know you don't want to count it, but FE Heroes has surpassed every expectation Nintendo had in sales, downloads and user engagement for the last three years. It outsold (by a lot) Mario Run and Animal Crossing combined, the latter of which had the same gotcha mechanics to an arguably worse degree. To put its success in perspective, Capcom's Puzzle Fighter, a game starring a flurry of Capcom stars from various franchises, lasted only eight months before being pulled from mobile storefronts.

Secondly, also regarding sales, these are not apples to apples comparisons as Fire Emblem was Japan-exclusive for its first six games, and Japan has a significantly smaller population than the European or North American regions. For perspective, Mega Man 2 (because the first Mega Man was a sleeper hit with poor marketing, and its sales were nearly half) sold approximately 420k in Japan in 1989, making it a staple of Capcom's library because of its success. The first Fire Emblem game, by comparison, sold 330k in 1990, which outsold Mega Man 1 by nearly 100k. This upward trend continued for FE, as the third game in the series sold 780k, again, solely in Japan, in 1994. Not only did Intelligent Systems pioneer the tactical RPG genre, but they were doing so with sales numbers that encouraged Nintendo to invest in the series for game-after-game.

It's important to keep perspective of just what these numbers mean. One can argue-- and I agree-- that the tactical RPG genre is a niche in and of itself, just as the RTS genre is, the survival horror genre is, and even the classic JRPG genre is. But even if the genre is niche, franchises can transcend the confines of that genre-- such as Starcraft, Resident Evil and Final Fantasy, all of which hail from their own "niche" communities.

While Fire Emblem in the 1990s and 2000s was certainly niche, I believe the label fails it in the 2010s. It's simply too big. It has an annual convention. It has a running trading card game. It was one of Google Play's most successful apps three years running. It's an easy two-million seller despite its genre confines, outpacing similar series like X-Com, Tactics Ogre and even Mario + Rabbids Kingdom, assuming Three Houses continues its upward trend. It was only 200k short of M+R's lifetime sales as of September, and it released in the last week of July.


But I've labored on about these sales points for too long. I'm not sure we're going to see eye-to-eye on this. I simply feel that "niche" is a word being used to belittle FE's successes, as it's not applied fairly across any other Smash-represented series. It's solely used for FE, almost as a derogatory. I don't like when language is misused for the sake of persuasion.

Which games that became franchises other than F-Zero has Fire Emblem outlived out of curiosity? F-Zero is the only one I can think of where they just stopped making games without the creator saying that the series story was complete.

Outlived? I'd say F-Zero, yes, but also Earthbound/Mother, Banjo-Kazooie, Punch-Out!!, Kid Icarus and arguably Star Fox, Pac-Man and Pikmin, unless they're given new titles soon.

When I say outlived, I don't just mean dead franchises that haven't seen anything for a decade. I mean franchises that haven't seen anything successful while Fire Emblem has thrived. Though there's bleed-over from "outlived" to "outperformed". I don't want to get caught up on details; I simply want to give credit where it's due since people like to only compare FE to specific franchises that outshine it because they also happen to outshine everyone else, too.

Nintendo is investing heavily into FE for a reason. People can claim Sakurai bias, but Sakurai wasn't the one who decided to make a Fire Emblem-only direct, or a Fire Emblem Expo, or Fire Emblem Cipher, which has been running for five years with the newest expansion pack coming a mere month ago.

Like, I don't know what else FE needs to do to prove itself at this point.

 

[Nah]

it already has more than 80

ah **** really?

thought we weren’t quite there yet lol

 

[Kayakoscep]

I'm really glad I didn't buy the fighter pass and waited to find out who it was about, in my opinion it's the worst choice we could have had knowing that it comes from a series that was already over represented, we had a pass with four third part characters to end with a character from a series that was already pissing off a number of people in all the characters that were included. We have the impression that everything is for fire emblem, if they had to finish on a nintendo character, they could at least have taken a character from a series that was not represented enough or a character that was more in demand. We can see that it's a choice of nintendo who decided to promote fire emblem three house and its latest dlc but frankly when they are always pushing fire emblem in front of us it doesn't give me any desire to play their games.

I have nothing against the character and besides I didn't know him before, but yes I must admit that this license is coming out of my ears as far as smash is concerned.

Yes I'm salty, it's the first time It's the first time I'm pissed off for a dlc smash, I may hate some characters that I wouldn't quote in the fighter pass, but they had a certain demand and a certain "legitimacy" to join the adventure. A hundredth fire emblem character as the last character of a pack full of third part characters after we waited so long is a bad surprise for many.

 

[fogbadge]

I'm really glad I didn't buy the fighter pass and waited to find out who it was about, in my opinion it's the worst choice we could have had knowing that it comes from a series that was already over represented, we had a pass with four third part characters to end with a character from a series that was already pissing off a number of people in all the characters that were included. We have the impression that everything is for fire emblem, if they had to finish on a nintendo character, they could at least have taken a character from a series that was not represented enough or a character that was more in demand. We can see that it's a choice of nintendo who decided to promote fire emblem three house and its latest dlc but frankly when they are always pushing fire emblem in front of us it doesn't give me any desire to play their games.

I have nothing against the character and besides I didn't know him before, but yes I must admit that this license is coming out of my ears as far as smash is concerned.

Yes I'm salty, it's the first time It's the first time I'm pissed off for a dlc smash, I may hate some characters that I wouldn't quote in the fighter pass, but they had a certain demand and a certain "legitimacy" to join the adventure. A hundredth fire emblem character as the last character of a pack full of third part characters after we waited so long is a bad surprise for many.

well to be fair we dont know that is was nintendo pushing byleth, it could have just been sakurai

 

[Kayakoscep]

well to be fair we dont know that is was nintendo pushing byleth, it could have just been sakurai

I think it's nintendo because some time after the smash direct, the first video released by nintendo was a promotional video of fire emblem three house including a dlc

And frankly I think sakurai knew that the community would react that way and there's this feeling of disgust at the number of fire emblem characters.

after I don't know, if sakurai really decided himself it's something that would deeply annoy me since (it's out of topic here ) he makes kirby never especially viable because of the famous "sakurai bias" but then he takes out a lot of characters from his favorite franchise.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Firstly, each of the games in Fates's two-set broke a million. The final sales ended up just short of 3 million for both combined, and that's despite the negative word of mouth it maintained after release. Also, FE Warriors sold over a million despite its negative reaction from fans due to its roster, Three Houses broke a million in its very first weekend, and I know you don't want to count it, but FE Heroes has surpassed every expectation Nintendo had in sales, downloads and user engagement for the last three years. It outsold (by a lot) Mario Run and Animal Crossing combined, the latter of which had the same gotcha mechanics to an arguably worse degree. To put its success in perspective, Capcom's Puzzle Fighter, a game starring a flurry of Capcom stars from various franchises, lasted only eight months before being pulled from mobile storefronts.

Secondly, also regarding sales, these are not apples to apples comparisons as Fire Emblem was Japan-exclusive for its first six games, and Japan has a significantly smaller population than the European or North American regions. For perspective, Mega Man 2 (because the first Mega Man was a sleeper hit with poor marketing, and its sales were nearly half) sold approximately 420k in Japan in 1989, making it a staple of Capcom's library because of its success. The first Fire Emblem game, by comparison, sold 330k in 1990, which outsold Mega Man 1 by nearly 100k. This upward trend continued for FE, as the third game in the series sold 780k, again, solely in Japan, in 1994. Not only did Intelligent Systems pioneer the tactical RPG genre, but they were doing so with sales numbers that encouraged Nintendo to invest in the series for game-after-game.

It's important to keep perspective of just what these numbers mean. One can argue-- and I agree-- that the tactical RPG genre is a niche in and of itself, just as the RTS genre is, the survival horror genre is, and even the classic JRPG genre is. But even if the genre is niche, franchises can transcend the confines of that genre-- such as Starcraft, Resident Evil and Final Fantasy, all of which hail from their own "niche" communities.

While Fire Emblem in the 1990s and 2000s was certainly niche, I believe the label fails it in the 2010s. It's simply too big. It has an annual convention. It has a running trading card game. It was one of Google Play's most successful apps three years running. It's an easy two-million seller despite its genre confines, outpacing similar series like X-Com, Tactics Ogre and even Mario + Rabbids Kingdom, assuming Three Houses continues its upward trend. It was only 200k short of M+R's lifetime sales as of September, and it released in the last week of July.


But I've labored on about these sales points for too long. I'm not sure we're going to see eye-to-eye on this. I simply feel that "niche" is a word being used to belittle FE's successes, as it's not applied fairly across any other Smash-represented series. It's solely used for FE, almost as a derogatory. I don't like when language is misused for the sake of persuasion.


Outlived? I'd say F-Zero, yes, but also Earthbound/Mother, Banjo-Kazooie, Punch-Out!!, Kid Icarus and arguably Star Fox, Pac-Man and Pikmin, unless they're given new titles soon.

When I say outlived, I don't just mean dead franchises that haven't seen anything for a decade. I mean franchises that haven't seen anything successful while Fire Emblem has thrived. Though there's bleed-over from "outlived" to "outperformed". I don't want to get caught up on details; I simply want to give credit where it's due since people like to only compare FE to specific franchises that outshine it because they also happen to outshine everyone else, too.

Nintendo is investing heavily into FE for a reason. People can claim Sakurai bias, but Sakurai wasn't the one who decided to make a Fire Emblem-only direct, or a Fire Emblem Expo, or Fire Emblem Cipher, which has been running for five years with the newest expansion pack coming a mere month ago.

Like, I don't know what else FE needs to do to prove itself at this point.

Fates was released in multiple games, but for all intents and purposes, it's just one game called Fire Emblem Fates, they didn't separate it out where I saw the sales data and they're still technically numbered exactly the same in the series lineage. It doesn't really matter if both sold over a million, the point stands that Awakening was the first big success the series had the world over and despite doing very well, is still a small percentage of the install base of the console/handheld that has it. I think we're going a little into the weeds with this though, as I'm not insulting FE by calling it niche, I'm just calling it like I see it. I'd say a good deal of not only the Fighter's Pass and a good deal of the actual characters in Smash are from more niche games. I'd personally just prefer to see more characters from the niche series that aren't represented as well than to have a more popular title hog the spotlight. Nintendo keeps pushing FE and ignoring games that could be as or more popular than it to the wider gaming audience if only they'd get the Smash push that Fire Emblem keeps getting. I'd be just as disappointed by yet another Mario or Pokemon rep added in through paid DLC, and I still remember people screaming bloody murder about Piranha Plant, despite it being free. (For most)

Siege was a counterpick in Brawl and Ferox a counterpick on 3DS.

I'd say that's fair enough, the stagelist does not need to be constant since every game community always inevitably chops it down to 5-8 legal ones in the end. Offering more options is just a waste of dev time if they get ditched anyway which is why they settled with hazardless and BF/Omega options instead.

Was it really? I'm amazed that the 3DS Smash was actually played competitively, with those horrible circle pad controls. It's impressive the kind of crap people can adjust to. I don't really disagree with you, I'd just be happy to see some of these DLC stages played in competitive matches and as it is atm, they don't. Hell, I figured Hazardless Mementos would have been decent enough as a counterpick at the very least. But eh, ah well.

 

[meleebrawler]

I'm mostly 'bummed' because FE just doesn't resonate with me. Though I'd suppose this would be the opposite reaction for me that the rest of the community had. I love Incineroar, so him being revealed pretty much last was hype for me and I play a LOT of Macho Cat. A LOT. So the end reveal of DLC being another blue haired swordie merely made me shrug. It felt a bit too predictable. We all know Nintendo is pushing FE hardcore and now that it's gotten a lot of traction, it'd be bound to happen. However I thought that, at the VERY least, a FE rep would be in the second pass. After all, FE did get a new rep in the base roster with Chrom (Even if he is a weird hodge podge echo).

But to those who are excited, I'm happy for them. I'll be buying Byleth because I ain't no fool who doesn't complete the roster. I'll likely still be trying out Byleth (I always play the new characters to help better understand how they work and thus better counter them a bit). I may even find I like playing the character and if I do, that'd be cool to have a FE character click with me (Only Corrin did in Smash 4, genuinely enjoyed how the character felt to play but don't play Corrin much now not because of being 'bad' but because Pac-Man is just so much more fun to play and he was my boy in 4 so Pac-Hype this game is real).

But with 6 new additions on the horizion, a lot more than we thought, I'm not even mad. Not even really 'disappointed' just sort of 'ah, there it is' moment. At least the band-aid got ripped off NOW and the next 6 will LIKELY not contain another FE member (Unless they are fresh in design and play style. Granted Byleth won't play like the core 4 swordies, so that alone lessened any 'sting' the character reveal might of had).

In some ways, Byleth's reveal timing is actually kind of genius, aiming for the long term by giving pass 2 a clean slate of speculation. Had it ended on another third party people would have just held the belief that's all we're getting from DLC, and a different first party would have left a looming Fire Emblem shadow over speculation.

On another matter, the thing about Fire Emblem is that, until Ultimate it was fairly limited in areas other than fighters. Melee had no stage at all, Brawl got a fairly generic one, 4 has two new stages, another generic and one actual location that was similar to the other, and finally it took until Ultimate for the series to get one measly item and more than one assist trophy. Only music did well for itself. The series is character-driven and Smash reflects that.

 

[Planet Cool]

Outlived? I'd say F-Zero, yes, but also Earthbound/Mother, Banjo-Kazooie, Punch-Out!!, Kid Icarus and arguably Star Fox, Pac-Man and Pikmin, unless they're given new titles soon.

The word "arguably" is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting up there.

The thing about Fire Emblem is that it's possibly the only Nintendo franchise that has as many haters as fans. It's the Vegemite of video games. I think that ought to be taken into consideration. Sakurai himself said Smash is not just a game but a celebration of the whole gaming medium, and that doesn't track when those prancing renfaire doofuses take up nearly a tenth of the roster.

 

[fogbadge]

I think it's nintendo because some time after the smash direct, the first video released by nintendo was a promotional video of fire emblem three house including a dlc

And frankly I think sakurai knew that the community would react that way and there's this feeling of disgust at the number of fire emblem characters.

but then why would nintendo only push fire emblem? they had a number of big games out last year so why would byleth be the only one they push?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

This title is stupid, the community's just as divided now as it was when they revealed the Piranha Plant. And Bayonetta. And when Smash 4 leaked. And when Brawl leaked. Either people are exaggerating to doom and gloom about a single character or this community is so ****ing fragile it snaps whenever anything happens

 

[osby]

The thing about Fire Emblem is that it's possibly the only Nintendo franchise that has as many haters as fans.

You really should stop acting like online Smash fandom is the representative of every Nintendo fan out there.

 

[meleebrawler]

The word "arguably" is doing an awful lot of heavy lifting up there.

The thing about Fire Emblem is that it's possibly the only Nintendo franchise that has as many haters as fans. It's the Vegemite of video games. I think that ought to be taken into consideration. Sakurai himself said Smash is not just a game but a celebration of the whole gaming medium, and that doesn't track when those prancing renfaire doofuses take up nearly a tenth of the roster.

Try checking out the Pokemon Reddit and Pokemon Sword & Shield Reddit.

 

[Kayakoscep]

but then why would nintendo only push fire emblem? they had a number of big games out last year so why would byleth be the only one they push?

Seriously I don't know and asked like this I fear it's just the choice of sakurai after all

edit : sakurai have confirmed it was nintendo choice

 

[fogbadge]

Seriously I don't know and asked like this I fear it's just the choice of sakurai after all

edit : sakurai have confirmed it was nintendo choice

but it still doesnt make any sense does it, why just three houses? why not luigis mansion 3 or sword and shield? nobody at nintendo ever back up this statement and its hard to trust a guy whos often says things that are contradicted by things hes done.

more to the point youll notice he says that nintendo picks and then he decides if they can work so he could have rejected a lot of other characters as well in favour of byleth

 

[Planet Cool]

Try checking out the Pokemon Reddit and Pokemon Sword & Shield Reddit.

Those are individual games, though, not a whole franchise.

 

[meleebrawler]

Sales figures are typically only brought up when it suits a person's argument. When someone likes the new inclusion, it's "the sales are good enough to say it is deserving of this". When someone doesn't like it, it's "the sales don't support this, it's too niche". When someone points out that the sales figure bit doesn't hold water, well, there's always some other justification for it. That's how it for most arguments on this sort of topic--the community's various made up rules and reasonings on representation only apply when they want it to.

At the end of the day, all this really boils down to is that Fire Emblem is this community's favorite scapegoat to use when they don't get what they want. People could use to take a step back and realize that everyone's getting super emotional, that the salt and divisiveness stems from something like a single character making it into a video game that already has nearly 80 playable characters in it and is set have more than 80 by the end of this year.

It could've been a lot worse anyway.

It also comes down to the online community focused on competitive play always thinking they're bigger than they really are, ignoring all forms of representation that aren't playable or the huge casual crowd that don't go anywhere near online discussion, play with all stages in non-BF or omega form and items, giving a heavily skewed perspective on ''balanced representation''.

Fun fact: the Zelda franchise has the second most amount of items in Smash, beaten only by Super Mario that trumps all others in all categories, unless you consider each Pokeball Pokemon a separate ''item''. Seems pretty fitting for a series all about using your inventory to solve puzzles and fight monsters.

 

[Planet Cool]

Speaking of Zelda items, they sure are super strange picks. Seemingly obvious ones like the acorn that temporarily halves your damage are missing, but a throwable Cucco is present and accounted for. Also, the beetle isn't the kind that can actually pick you up (the hook beetle).

Back on topic, I agree that sometimes a playable fighter isn't the best way to represent something in Smash. For example, I don't think we need a Rhythm Heaven fighter but I'd love a Rhythm Heaven stage. In the DK fandom, a lot of people want Cranky to be playable, but I think he'd be better as a ranting assist trophy like Mr. Resetti.

 

[Xelrog]

It's crazy how one character from one franchise can cause this much of an uproar within Smash.
It really is sad to be honest(in my opinion), that we did get a another FE character, however we are getting a kick ass stage, you guys can't deny how cool this transition stage is going to be.

The stage looks worse than the character. Transition stages are a garbage concept and shouldn't exist.

 

[Homelessvagrant]

eh, it only matters in that it divides the speculation community. People will always have issues with FE representation, but once all the DLC character slots are filled, none of this discussion will matter and will mostly die out. Character speculation will always devolve to character requests and complaints in the end, its just kind of the nature of things. Though I have to admit its kind of funny how bitter people are considering about two years back we weren't even sure we would be getting every character back, let alone twelve DLC characters. But eh, any popular series is going to attract a certain level of toxicity.

Regardless Byleth was a dumb choice, but I'm still looking forward to trying him/her out.

 

[Planet Cool]

The Fire Emblem overrepresentation is the only downside of the director also being a gamer/fanboy. Because Sakurai happens to be a big fan of that series, he thinks it's much more important and popular (not to mention cooler) than it really is. I think the internet has made it resoundingly clear that most of us think Byleth is a dumb choice. That having been said, in Ultimate he's making a concerted effort to please as many fans as possible. Just look at Ridley, King K. Rool, Isabelle, Joker, Banjo-Kazooie... shoot, pretty much every newcomer in this thing except Byleth was a bombshell, especially compared to Smash for 3DS/Wii U, where the only truly great character (imo) was Mega Man. I think it's okay to complain about things we don't like, but let's also be fair and give the guy a break.

 

[PsychoJosh]

Divided? It's the same as it's always been.

I thought the reaction was actually quite unifying, everyone unanimously hates Byleth and the scant few FE fans are weakly calling "hoes mad" from their dwindling pedestal against the overwhelming hordes.

 

[fogbadge]

Speaking of Zelda items, they sure are super strange picks. Seemingly obvious ones like the acorn that temporarily halves your damage are missing, but a throwable Cucco is present and accounted for. Also, the beetle isn't the kind that can actually pick you up (the hook beetle).
.

most things in smash are odd if you think about it

 

[Lenidem]

Speaking of Zelda items, they sure are super strange picks. Seemingly obvious ones like the acorn that temporarily halves your damage are missing, but a throwable Cucco is present and accounted for. Also, the beetle isn't the kind that can actually pick you up (the hook beetle).

Back on topic, I agree that sometimes a playable fighter isn't the best way to represent something in Smash. For example, I don't think we need a Rhythm Heaven fighter but I'd love a Rhythm Heaven stage. In the DK fandom, a lot of people want Cranky to be playable, but I think he'd be better as a ranting assist trophy like Mr. Resetti.

The Cucco is the best item in the game.

 

[Planet Cool]

I'm not saying it's bad, I'm saying it's a heckin' weird choice.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Firstly, each of the games in Fates's two-set broke a million. The final sales ended up just short of 3 million for both combined, and that's despite the negative word of mouth it maintained after release. Also, FE Warriors sold over a million despite its negative reaction from fans due to its roster, Three Houses broke a million in its very first weekend, and I know you don't want to count it, but FE Heroes has surpassed every expectation Nintendo had in sales, downloads and user engagement for the last three years. It outsold (by a lot) Mario Run and Animal Crossing combined, the latter of which had the same gotcha mechanics to an arguably worse degree. To put its success in perspective, Capcom's Puzzle Fighter, a game starring a flurry of Capcom stars from various franchises, lasted only eight months before being pulled from mobile storefronts.

Secondly, also regarding sales, these are not apples to apples comparisons as Fire Emblem was Japan-exclusive for its first six games, and Japan has a significantly smaller population than the European or North American regions. For perspective, Mega Man 2 (because the first Mega Man was a sleeper hit with poor marketing, and its sales were nearly half) sold approximately 420k in Japan in 1989, making it a staple of Capcom's library because of its success. The first Fire Emblem game, by comparison, sold 330k in 1990, which outsold Mega Man 1 by nearly 100k. This upward trend continued for FE, as the third game in the series sold 780k, again, solely in Japan, in 1994. Not only did Intelligent Systems pioneer the tactical RPG genre, but they were doing so with sales numbers that encouraged Nintendo to invest in the series for game-after-game.

It's important to keep perspective of just what these numbers mean. One can argue-- and I agree-- that the tactical RPG genre is a niche in and of itself, just as the RTS genre is, the survival horror genre is, and even the classic JRPG genre is. But even if the genre is niche, franchises can transcend the confines of that genre-- such as Starcraft, Resident Evil and Final Fantasy, all of which hail from their own "niche" communities.

While Fire Emblem in the 1990s and 2000s was certainly niche, I believe the label fails it in the 2010s. It's simply too big. It has an annual convention. It has a running trading card game. It was one of Google Play's most successful apps three years running. It's an easy two-million seller despite its genre confines, outpacing similar series like X-Com, Tactics Ogre and even Mario + Rabbids Kingdom, assuming Three Houses continues its upward trend. It was only 200k short of M+R's lifetime sales as of September, and it released in the last week of July.


But I've labored on about these sales points for too long. I'm not sure we're going to see eye-to-eye on this. I simply feel that "niche" is a word being used to belittle FE's successes, as it's not applied fairly across any other Smash-represented series. It's solely used for FE, almost as a derogatory. I don't like when language is misused for the sake of persuasion.


Outlived? I'd say F-Zero, yes, but also Earthbound/Mother, Banjo-Kazooie, Punch-Out!!, Kid Icarus and arguably Star Fox, Pac-Man and Pikmin, unless they're given new titles soon.

When I say outlived, I don't just mean dead franchises that haven't seen anything for a decade. I mean franchises that haven't seen anything successful while Fire Emblem has thrived. Though there's bleed-over from "outlived" to "outperformed". I don't want to get caught up on details; I simply want to give credit where it's due since people like to only compare FE to specific franchises that outshine it because they also happen to outshine everyone else, too.

Nintendo is investing heavily into FE for a reason. People can claim Sakurai bias, but Sakurai wasn't the one who decided to make a Fire Emblem-only direct, or a Fire Emblem Expo, or Fire Emblem Cipher, which has been running for five years with the newest expansion pack coming a mere month ago.

View attachment 258978

Like, I don't know what else FE needs to do to prove itself at this point.

This is a great post. Bravo.

 

[1FC0]

It's crazy how one character from one franchise can cause this much of an uproar within Smash.

it's not true that one character did that. Byleth was a dissapointment both due to the expectations being really high (due to the first 4 DLC Pass #1 characters being widely beloved third party characters) and due to people being bored of FE characters (caused by the roster having a large amount of FE characters in it). So the uproar is caused by all DLC Pass #1 and FE characters combined. Byleth is just the last link to link all components together; he's not the sole cause.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Honestly I still don't think "because Byleth is a Fire Emblem character" is a valid reason. Fire Emblem has grown a lot because of western interest in the series since Smash Melee. That lead to Fire Emblem coming to the west, which lead to more games overall for the franchise, which led to Ike in Brawl Then suddenly (and unfortunately because Radiant Dawn was a GREAT game) a sort of a stale development for the franchise on the Wii, then Awakening did beyond expectations which led to 2 Fire Emblem newcomers in Smash 4. Roy came back due to being massively requested and popular, and Corrin came as a DLC character because Fates was an ambitious project. Roy's moveset lead to Chrom being a Echo Fighter. And just now, after massive succes of Three Houses we got Byleth.

All these things are logical if you actually have oversight in the growth of Fire Emblem, mainly thanks to Smash.

There's no reason the Fighter Pass should've been 100% 3rd party characters. In fact, there have been LOADS of complaints that all the focus on 3rd party characters wasn't so well received by core Nintendo fans. Myself included... Especially after Joker. Also after Terry. Hero and Banjo far less so because all their most prominent appearances have been on Nintendo, as well as their roots.

Byleth is an awesome newcomer, and well deserved. If we've gotten newcomers from ALL the Fire Emblem games that came out since Melee maybe you'd have a reason to complain. But that's not the case. Only the most popular characters and most important games got a character.

Marth as the hero of the first game, as well as having the most overall appearances.

Roy because his game was coming out in Japan and was a revival of the franchise in Japan. Also because he was originally a clone of Marth.

Ike because he's the most popular main character overall, his game started the 3D Fire Emblem games, he's the main hero of two games as well.

Robin because of Awakening and him being more unique than Chrom in contrast to Marth and Ike. So basically the reasons of Roy, but as a unique character, and international even.

Lucina because of Awakening and Smash 4 wanting "Echo Fighters" made of characters who where originally supposed to be alternative costumes.

Roy because of fan demand. More popular than the other missing veterans apperantly. Doesn't matter anyway cause "Everyone is here" would ensure his return anyway.

Corrin because Fates was an ambitious project that timed well with Smash 4's DLC cycle. Perfect timing.

Chrom because Echo Fighters being a thing in Ultimate, ballot votes, him already having a workable model.. low effort but high quality Echo Fighter.

And now Byleth because Three Houses is the most successful Fire Emblem title ever with extreme high critical acclaim and a moveset that represents Fire Emblem and Tree Houses as a whole perfectly.

 

[Lenidem]

Honestly I still don't think "because Byleth is a Fire Emblem character" is a valid reason. Fire Emblem has grown a lot because of western interest in the series since Smash Melee. That lead to Fire Emblem coming to the west, which lead to more games overall for the franchise, which led to Ike in Brawl Then suddenly (and unfortunately because Radiant Dawn was a GREAT game) a sort of a stale development for the franchise on the Wii, then Awakening did beyond expectations which led to 2 Fire Emblem newcomers in Smash 4. Roy came back due to being massively requested and popular, and Corrin came as a DLC character because Fates was an ambitious project. Roy's moveset lead to Chrom being a Echo Fighter. And just now, after massive succes of Three Houses we got Byleth.

All these things are logical if you actually have oversight in the growth of Fire Emblem, mainly thanks to Smash.

There's no reason the Fighter Pass should've been 100% 3rd party characters. In fact, there have been LOADS of complaints that all the focus on 3rd party characters wasn't so well received by core Nintendo fans. Myself included... Especially after Joker. Also after Terry. Hero and Banjo far less so because all their most prominent appearances have been on Nintendo, as well as their roots.

Byleth is an awesome newcomer, and well deserved. If we've gotten newcomers from ALL the Fire Emblem games that came out since Melee maybe you'd have a reason to complain. But that's not the case. Only the most popular characters and most important games got a character.

Marth as the hero of the first game, as well as having the most overall appearances.

Roy because his game was coming out in Japan and was a revival of the franchise in Japan. Also because he was originally a clone of Marth.

Ike because he's the most popular main character overall, his game started the 3D Fire Emblem games, he's the main hero of two games as well.

Robin because of Awakening and him being more unique than Chrom in contrast to Marth and Ike. So basically the reasons of Roy, but as a unique character, and international even.

Lucina because of Awakening and Smash 4 wanting "Echo Fighters" made of characters who where originally supposed to be alternative costumes.

Roy because of fan demand. More popular than the other missing veterans apperantly. Doesn't matter anyway cause "Everyone is here" would ensure his return anyway.

Corrin because Fates was an ambitious project that timed well with Smash 4's DLC cycle. Perfect timing.

Chrom because Echo Fighters being a thing in Ultimate, ballot votes, him already having a workable model.. low effort but high quality Echo Fighter.

And now Byleth because Three Houses is the most successful Fire Emblem title ever with extreme high critical acclaim and a moveset that represents Fire Emblem and Tree Houses as a whole perfectly.

Present it like you want, there is a lot of potential ''awesome newcomers, and well deserved'' and the fact is that it's another Fire Emblem one. There is still no one from Golden Sun, Bomberman is an assist, Dixie Kong is a spirit, and Fire Emblem has more original movesets than freaking Legend of Zelda. So that's a pretty valid reason for me.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Present it like you want, there is a lot of potential ''awesome newcomers, and well deserved'' and the fact is that it's another Fire Emblem one. There is still no one from Golden Sun, Bomberman is an assist, Dixie Kong is a spirit, and Fire Emblem has more original movesets than freaking Legend of Zelda. So that's a pretty valid reason for me.

I agree that Isaac, Dixie and a Zelda character are heavily needed. No misunderstanding here. But why aren't you upset that the focus is so much on 3rd party characters? Fire Emblem has grown a lot since Smash. Unfortunately, DKC and Golden Sun haven't done so as much. Zelda did. That's why I hope FP2 has a Zelda newcomer, hopefully Impa....yet the reason why we don't get more 1st party newcomers isn't because of Fire Emblem. It's because of the focus on 3rd party characters.

And I'll say again, Hero and Banjo are excellent choices. I'm far less impressed with Joker and Terry.

 

[Lenidem]

I agree that Isaac, Dixie and a Zelda character are heavily needed. No misunderstanding here. But why aren't you upset that the focus is so much on 3rd party characters? Fire Emblem has grown a lot since Smash. Unfortunately, DKC and Golden Sun haven't done so as much. Zelda did. That's why I hope FP2 has a Zelda newcomer, hopefully Impa....yet the reason why we don't get more 1st party newcomers isn't because of Fire Emblem. It's because of the focus on 3rd party characters.

And I'll say again, Hero and Banjo are excellent choices. I'm far less impressed with Joker and Terry.

I don't really care about the third party because I don't know them. I don't Dragon Quest, King of Fighters and Persona, so their reveal was just bland to me. Maybe their games are good, maybe not, and they probably have fans happy to see them in - if they had asked me, I would have probably chosen Skull Kid, Dixie Kong and Captain Toad instead. But at least those third party are not from an already very represented franchise. Seriously, Sakurai started his direct explain what Fire Emblem is... At this point, which Smash fan needed any explanation? Marth and Roy are known since Melee. And yet, Nintendo decided to put one and only one first party character in the pass and decided to use this as an opportunity for more Fire Emblem. At least, nobody can say that we had already 'too much' or 'a lot' or even 'enough' of KoF/DQ/Persona.

 

[A Pichu And Lucas Main]

Honestly, this pick for me was sort of expected. We had to get at least 1 Nintendo character, and it makes sense its Fire Emblem.
Though, I haven't even played FE Three Houses, but I'm considering picking up Byleth, she looks like a cool sword fighter and her Alts are great. I'm not all too hype about it, but hey the character looks cool so I'm down with it.
I don't like how people are hating super hard on this character though, its dumb, I get their disappointed, but their harassing people for liking the character, which is pretty messed up.

 

[Lenidem]

Honestly, this pick for me was sort of expected. We had to get at least 1 Nintendo character, and it makes sense its Fire Emblem.
Though, I haven't even played FE Three Houses, but I'm considering picking up Byleth, she looks like a cool sword fighter and her Alts are great. I'm not all too hype about it, but hey the character looks cool so I'm down with it.
I don't like how people are hating super hard on this character though, its dumb, I get their disappointed, but their harassing people for liking the character, which is pretty messed up.

Some people overreact and might indeed harass those who like it, but you can hate an inclusion and still be respectful towards the others.

 

[Perkilator]

Some people overreact and might indeed harass those who like it, but you can hate an inclusion and still be respectful towards the others.

Exactly. I'm morseo bummed that Byleth was FP5, but I don't HATE their inclusion.

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Reviewing some posts, I just want to say this: Stop saying "The Smash community has a history of X" "The Smash community is full of X" "The Smash community is X." We're talking about a game fanbase some 20 million strong. You can't speak for all of them just by looking at Youtube comments. 99% of everyone that plays Smash is a good person. You only hear about the bad people. That doesn't give anyone the right to lump 20 million people under one label.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I don't really care about the third party because I don't know them. I don't Dragon Quest, King of Fighters and Persona, so their reveal was just bland to me. Maybe their games are good, maybe not, and they probably have fans happy to see them in - if they had asked me, I would have probably chosen Skull Kid, Dixie Kong and Captain Toad instead. But at least those third party are not from an already very represented franchise. Seriously, Sakurai started his direct explain what Fire Emblem is... At this point, which Smash fan needed any explanation? Marth and Roy are known since Melee. And yet, Nintendo decided to put one and only one first party character in the pass and decided to use this as an opportunity for more Fire Emblem. At least, nobody can say that we had already 'too much' or 'a lot' or even 'enough' of KoF/DQ/Persona.

I'm also not familiar with Persona and King of Fighters. I did play a little Dragon Quest to know what it's about however. It's a series tied to Nintendo and started on Nintendo, same with Banjo-Kazooie. Anyway, Fire Emblem getting a newcomer after Three Houses is very logical. Fire Emblem became international because of Smash Bros., and Three Houses is very critically acclaimed if you haven't noticed yet. I don't think Fire Emblem gets too much newcomers, it's just a shame that other newcomers from established Nintendo franchises don't get this much. There's a lot to work with also.

DKC should have Dixie, but logically could also include the likes of Cranky Kong. Zelda could have easily gotten a Champion of BotW, (Urbosa) Skull Kid and Impa. Starfox could have Slippy and Krystal. Kirby could have Bandana Dee and probably some others.

Thing is not all of these characters are recent. And Fire Emblem characters often are, and are naturally fit for Smash Bros. too. Relevant, recent, and easy to include in Smash.

But yeah I get your point.

 

[Lenidem]

I'm also not familiar with Persona and King of Fighters. I did play a little Dragon Quest to know what it's about however. It's a series tied to Nintendo and started on Nintendo, same with Banjo-Kazooie. Anyway, Fire Emblem getting a newcomer after Three Houses is very logical. Fire Emblem became international because of Smash Bros., and Three Houses is very critically acclaimed if you haven't noticed yet. I don't think Fire Emblem gets too much newcomers, it's just a shame that other newcomers from established Nintendo franchises don't get this much. There's a lot to work with also.

DKC should have Dixie, but logically could also include the likes of Cranky Kong. Zelda could have easily gotten a Champion of BotW, (Urbosa) Skull Kid and Impa. Starfox could have Slippy and Krystal. Kirby could have Bandana Dee and probably some others.

Thing is not all of these characters are recent. And Fire Emblem characters often are, and are naturally fit for Smash Bros. too. Relevant, recent, and easy to include in Smash.

But yeah I get your point.

I have a problem with the 'relevant, recent' argument. There are several characters who haven't been in any game since the NES era, so the most important criteria seems to be from a good/great game, being fondly remembered and/or have a legacy. It seems that Three Houses is great, yes, but so are plenty of more ancient titles - Majora's Mask, DK Country 2 and Golden Sun are the first to pop to my mind. So if it makes sense to represent Three Houses in theory, I think it's really overkill at this point. Smash is supposed to be a 'celebration of the history of gaming', so it shouldn't focus on recent titles, especially if said titles come from an already very well represented franchise. I don't have much time to play anymore, but it seems that, say, ARMS or Astral Chain are also considered very good.

And don't forget that a large part of Fire Emblem's success is due to Smash. If Smash dared to represent more other franchises as well, said franchises might get similar demand and success. It's a loop.

 

[lucasla]

I just hope that none of the next characters will be a Pokemon of Sword and Shield. I look to it and I feel the lazyness and low effort applyed on this game. I dont want a Smash character from Sword and Shield, it doesnt deserves. At least Fire Emblem is done with some passion, specially this new game, being really great and the first one for a home console, different than Pokemon, that did the bare minimum and looks like a game done by people that are learning to create games and dont have any money and resources.

 

[1FC0]

I just hope that none of the next characters will be a Pokemon of Sword and Shield.

They could represent Pokémon Sword & Shield by removing Jigglypuff.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have a problem with the 'relevant, recent' argument. There are several characters who haven't been in any game since the NES era, so the most important criteria seems to be from a good/great game, being fondly remembered and/or have a legacy. It seems that Three Houses is great, yes, but so are plenty of more ancient titles - Majora's Mask, DK Country 2 and Golden Sun are the first to pop to my mind. So if it makes sense to represent Three Houses in theory, I think it's really overkill at this point. Smash is supposed to be a 'celebration of the history of gaming', so it shouldn't focus on recent titles, especially if said titles come from an already very well represented franchise. I don't have much time to play anymore, but it seems that, say, ARMS or Astral Chain are also considered very good.

And don't forget that a large part of Fire Emblem's success is due to Smash. If Smash dared to represent more other franchises as well, said franchises might get similar demand and success. It's a loop.

Smash isn't "supposed" to be a celebration of gaming, it just turned out that way as a result of it's growth. Nothing stopping the higher-ups from taking away everything non-Nintendo in the next installment if they deem it unfeasible or some other reason. Also, it's hardly a guarantee inclusion in Smash will lead a series to success. Ice Climber still has nothing and F-Zero bombed.

Two assist trophies, a stage, new remix and item hardly makes Majora's Mask feel neglected to me. Sorry this isn't Hyrule Warriors where you can severely exaggerate the capabilities of everyone in Hyrule.

I just hope that none of the next characters will be a Pokemon of Sword and Shield. I look to it and I feel the lazyness and low effort applyed on this game. I dont want a Smash character from Sword and Shield, it doesnt deserves. At least Fire Emblem is done with some passion, specially this new game, being really great and the first one for a home console, different than Pokemon, that did the bare minimum and looks like a game done by people that are learning to create games and dont have any money and resources.

I'd ask what you think of the people who make support threads for Gen 8 Pokemon regardless, but I think we all know no one wants to hear what you really think of them.

They could represent Pokémon Sword & Shield by removing Jigglypuff.

Don't count your Pokemon eggs before they hatch. Jigglypuff could very well be re-added in the expansions.

 

[UserKev]

*Sign* call me a Lyn fanboy or whatever, I'm not even bothered by Byleth's addition. I just wish Lyn could have met the same light of day in being promoted/meeting great timing as recent Fire Emblem additions.