Last DLC Pack has divided the community.

[Deleted member]

This had nothing to do with what I said, or what I quoted, and was needlessly antagonistic.

But otherwise, solid post, 10/10.

Thank you, I'm just expressing my opinions .

 

[Mogisthelioma]

Just here to remind everyone that no one has to justify their reason for being underwhelmed with Byleth's reveal. When you think about it, the overall global appeal for the first wave of DLC peaked back in September when B&K and Sans were shown off in the same direct. Terry was more of an offshoot since SNK fighting games were undeniably known about less than the other franchises picked, but at the end of the day anyone with basic knowledge of fighting games knew who Terry was. But you would have needed to play Three Houses to know who Byleth was, a game that came out less than 6 months ago. Basically every series in this game other than Mario, Zelda, Kirby, and Pokemon can be described as niche, since the aforementioned four are Nintendo's only IP's with consistent releases, critical acclaim, and global appeal. So when people complain that they're "niche" they don't mean that FE as a whole is niche, only that out of the five DLC newcomers Byleth appeals to the smallest group of people.

And yes, saying that there are too many FE characters is still a valid argument, because everyone is entitled to their opinions and if someone thinks that it's unfair how FE gets 8 fighters but Zelda only gets 6 and Kirby only gets 3, that's fine. Nobody here is saying that the FE newcomers were added for no reason, only that FE characters shouldn't be getting this much priority. Think about it. Now think about how 3/5 of the DLC newcomers were JRPG protagonists and how annoyed someone might be if they're not a JRPG fan and suddenly the majority of the DLC comes off as an advertisement for games they're not interested in.

Everyone was blown away by the other four DLC characters. It's perfectly reasonable if someone sees Byleth as flavorless icing on the cake when we all expected an absolute bombshell newcomer to wrap up the DLC, not yet another self-insert FE protagonist with the personality of a potato chip. No one is ungrateful or disrespectful toward the devs for disliking Byleth. No newcomer in Smash history has been 100% accepted by the community, Byleth is no different.

All of this coming from someone with 300+ hours into FE3H and considers it one of his favorite Switch games. I liked the game, but I didn't want to see Byleth in Smash.

And for the last time, stop making "hoes mad" jokes about people who didn't orgasm immediately when Byleth was announced. Not everyone is a superfan of FE3H, they shouldn't be expected to be head over heels for it. Everyone should at least be happy for the FE fans who got what they wanted, but they have a right to be disappointed. I'm not saying it's happening on this thread, but just take a look on the internet and you'll realize that right now certain parts of the FE fanbase are acting infinitely more immature than the people who dislike Byleth's inclusion. Saying "hoes mad" doesn't make you hot ****. It makes you look like a 12 year old.

 

[channel_KYX]

I'm disappointed. I played a few FE games and like them, but I didn't play 3H, so I have no clue who this person is, so no hype here. But that's not my point.
My main gripe is that FE offers so many other character options, yet they still _again_ went for a slender, spotless swordfighter. The fact that Byleth has minor modifications in his moveset doesn't not make him basically a swordie. Except for the bow and his up b, every move could have been a sword. At least he represents the weapon triangle, I'll give them that.

We could have got
Hector, who acts as the heavy axe representative
Prince Innes (or insert any bowman here), I even made a moveset for him
Tiki, a manakete who turns into a dragon
A dark mage / sorcerer / summoner
A bishop with light magic

:/

 

[fogbadge]

I'm disappointed. I played a few FE games and like them, but I didn't play 3H, so I have no clue who this person is, so no hype here.

i wouldnt worry people who have played the game still dont know who he/she is

 

[Wunderwaft]

People would be more receptive to Fire Emblem if other first party franchises also got some love. This is coming from someone who loves Three Houses and played it a lot. This is like, the third time a Fire Emblem character was added to the series for promotional purposes. "Victim of Circumstances" yadda yadda yadda whatever, it doesn't change the fact that Fire Emblem fully benefited from these circumstances while other franchises wish they received attention like this. God knows how long it's been since a brand new unique Kirby or Zelda character got in Smash.

It's not like Three Houses was the only major Nintendo game that was released last year, there were a ton more games that released last year but once again Fire Emblem was chosen for this spot. Three Houses wasn't even chosen because it was a good game, it was chosen like a year before the game released so there was no way to gauge the reception from the public, especially since the game underwent a lot of delays.

Anyways this controversy will pass away a week or two after the character gets released, we've seen stuff like this time and time again. I'll probably enjoy Byleth, even though I would've preferred someone else like Dimitri over this blank slate of a character, but it is what it is.

 

[Lenidem]

People would be more receptive to Fire Emblem if other first party franchises also got some love. This is coming from someone who loves Three Houses and played it a lot. This is like, the third time a Fire Emblem character was added to the series for promotional purposes. "Victim of Circumstances" yadda yadda yadda whatever, it doesn't change the fact that Fire Emblem fully benefited from these circumstances while other franchises wish they received attention like this. God knows how long it's been since a brand new unique Kirby or Zelda character got in Smash.

It's not like Three Houses was the only major Nintendo game that was released last year, there were a ton more games that released last year but once again Fire Emblem was chosen for this spot. Three Houses wasn't even chosen because it was a good game, it was chosen like a year before the game released so there was no way to gauge the reception from the public, especially since the game underwent a lot of delays.

Anyways this controversy will pass away a week or two after the character gets released, we've seen stuff like this time and time again. I'll probably enjoy Byleth, even though I would've preferred someone else like Dimitri over this blank slate of a character, but it is what it is.

I'm not sure it will pass so quickly. Several people, myself included, are still not ok with Piranha Plant...

 

[Wunderwaft]

I'm not sure it will pass so quickly. Several people, myself included, are still not ok with Piranha Plant...

Some people might not be okay with it but if we're speaking about general noise and anger it will subside naturally until we move on into the next DLC fighter. In the end this is something that won't change for Ultimate, Byleth is in Smash and there's nothing to do about it. I fully expect this topic to be discussed heavily again when the next Smash game gets announced but that's a long time away.

 

[MaddaD]

I'm not sure it will pass so quickly. Several people, myself included, are still not ok with Piranha Plant...

What's wrong with Piranha Plant?

 

[Lenidem]

What's wrong with Piranha Plant?

A lot of stuff. But it has been talked many times since it's announcement, and I don't have time right now to repeat it again, I'm sorry.

 

[Oddball]

People would be more receptive to Fire Emblem if other first party franchises also got some love. This is coming from someone who loves Three Houses and played it a lot. This is like, the third time a Fire Emblem character was added to the series for promotional purposes. "Victim of Circumstances" yadda yadda yadda whatever, it doesn't change the fact that Fire Emblem fully benefited from these circumstances while other franchises wish they received attention like this.

It gets me that Fire Emblem gets characters for promotional purposes, but games like ARMS and Xenoblade were somehow too soon.

 

[MacSmitty]

I'm not really against Byleth's inclusion, although I believed they picked the absolute worst time to reveal them. What REALLY bugs me is how Rex couldn't be in the game due to being "too new", yet Byleth gets to be DLC despite their game coming out 3 months ago.

What's wrong with Piranha Plant?

Well to many;

1. It was a joke character they didn't find funny.
2. A mook becoming playable in game where people are asking for a bunch of highly requested individuals comes off as weird. I'm sure that if it were another requested character or Waluigi things wouldn't have been so bad.
3. Character from an over overrepresented series
4. #PlantGang consisted of hatebases of other requested characters who mocked others that wanted their own characters by going "HAHA! Your most wanted got it's spot taken by a Plant lolololol"
5. The Plant itself has a clunky move set that puts it in a weird spot on the tier list, causing people to drop it.

 

[meleebrawler]

It gets me that Fire Emblem gets characters for promotional purposes, but games like ARMS and Xenoblade were somehow too soon.

It makes more sense if you think along the lines of how soon the characters were pitched to Sakurai rather than when they started development.

 

[fogbadge]

Anyways this controversy will pass away a week or two after the character gets released, we've seen stuff like this time and time again. I'll probably enjoy Byleth, even though I would've preferred someone else like Dimitri over this blank slate of a character, but it is what it is.

i dunno, byleth maybe the most negatively received character in smash ever, that kind of salt aint going anywhere any time soon

 

[MrGameguycolor]

#PlantGang consisted of hatebases of other requested characters who mocked others that wanted their own characters by going "HAHA! Your most wanted got it's spot taken by a Plant lolololol"

Every fanbase has those kind of people but they don't speak for everyone in it...

 

[MaddaD]

i dunno, byleth maybe the most negatively received character in smash ever, that kind of salt aint going anywhere any time soon

I'd say that goes to Corrin, who was legitimately a walking advertisement because Awakening didn't even come out in NA for another few months while Japan had gotten it for at least 6 months.

 

[fogbadge]

I'd say that goes to Corrin, who was legitimately a walking advertisement because Awakening didn't even come out in NA for another few months while Japan had gotten it for at least 6 months.

his excuse about the team all suggesting him due to them all playing fates at the time was one of the more believable things hes said but it feels like nonsense now

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I'm guessing you didn't play Three Houses.

In general though, it's not wise to make a subjective statement in the absolute.

Subjective statements are often absolutes. "This is terrible" is an absolute and also a subjective statement. You can tell everything they said was their opinion and not an objective fact because they said it and didn't qualify it with "Everybody knows" or "This is a fact". I think it's a given that if you say something and don't qualify it, that makes it an opinion.

I whole heartedly agree that the Byleth trailer wasn't very interesting and didn't probably build much hype in general for anybody that wasn't already heavily invested in the niche series that is Fire Emblem. I assume there are a number of reasons why, the big one though being that it was first revealed during an event we all knew was going to be a Smash reveal. That's not a very smart decision as there's no surprise to it being Smash related. I think it would have been a far more effective trailer had they shown it off earlier, preferably at the Game Awards first seeming as an FE 3H ad, and revealing itself to be a Smash reveal.

The other is that a good deal of Smash players just were not interested in yet another blue haired Fire Emblem protagonist, or another M/F avatar.

 

[staindgrey]

Subjective statements are often absolutes. "This is terrible" is an absolute and also a subjective statement. You can tell everything they said was their opinion and not an objective fact because they said it and didn't qualify it with "Everybody knows" or "This is a fact". I think it's a given that if you say something and don't qualify it, that makes it an opinion.

I very much disagree. Language is important, particularly in a text-only form of communication. Reading what I quoted again, I still stand by what I said.

I whole heartedly agree that the Byleth trailer wasn't very interesting and didn't probably build much hype in general for anybody that wasn't already heavily invested in the niche series that is Fire Emblem. I assume there are a number of reasons why, the big one though being that it was first revealed during an event we all knew was going to be a Smash reveal. That's not a very smart decision as there's no surprise to it being Smash related. I think it would have been a far more effective trailer had they shown it off earlier, preferably at the Game Awards first seeming as an FE 3H ad, and revealing itself to be a Smash reveal.

That's a fair analysis of the timing. But the quote I was replying to was talking about the trailer itself, which was itself a self-aware joke on the multitude of swordies, using the game's original VAs with new animations drawn from one of the biggest moments of the game. What makes someone like the person I quoted consider it "without question, the worst reveal trailer of Ultimate so far" is the fact that it's a FE character and they already tuned out from disappointment. Every other qualifier we can try and use to justify that disappointment wouldn't have applied if it were literally any other franchise. So I call it as it is: you (royal you, not you-you) don't like that it's a FE character and that's fine. But own it.

Also, I think we should drop the "niche" tag after the last three non-remake games sold well over 2 million each and Three Houses won the fan-voted GOTY at TGAs, beating out even Smash Ultimate. "Niche" applied very well before. It doesn't now.

The other is that a good deal of Smash players just were not interested in yet another blue haired Fire Emblem protagonist, or another M/F avatar.

Their hair isn't blue.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

That's a fair analysis of the timing. But the quote I was replying to was talking about the trailer itself, which was itself a self-aware joke on the multitude of swordies, using the game's original VAs with new animations drawn from one of the biggest moments of the game. What makes someone like the person I quoted consider it "without question, the worst reveal trailer of Ultimate so far" is the fact that it's a FE character and they already tuned out from disappointment. Every other qualifier we can try and use to justify that disappointment wouldn't have applied if it were literally any other franchise. So I call it as it is: you (royal you, not you-you) don't like that it's a FE character and that's fine. But own it.

The fact that it's a Fire Emblem character is a disappointment for many, but I don't think that's why the trailer sucked. The trailer sucked because it requires firsthand knowledge about Three Houses to even be able to appreciate it. Only around 5% of Switch owners bought the game going by current sales figures, so only they're able to recognize the importance of the scene. I don't think a trailer should be so heavily reliant on knowing key details from a game the majority of Switch owners have not played. With the others, you don't have to fully recognize or understand the story of the games they came from at all to appreciate the reveal.

Also, I think we should drop the "niche" tag after the last three non-remake games sold well over 2 million each and Three Houses won the fan-voted GOTY at TGAs, beating out even Smash Ultimate. "Niche" applied very well before. It doesn't now.


Their hair isn't blue.

I'd say it's still a niche title that only 3-4% of 3DS owners and only around 5% of Switch owners own. It's doing better than Fire Emblem ever has in the past with the most popular game pre-Awakening only selling around 77 million, so that's a win, but still a niche title in a niche genre.

Hair isn't blue? Coulda fooled me going by that trailer.

 

[staindgrey]

The fact that it's a Fire Emblem character is a disappointment for many, but I don't think that's why the trailer sucked. The trailer sucked because it requires firsthand knowledge about Three Houses to even be able to appreciate it. Only around 5% of Switch owners bought the game going by current sales figures, so only they're able to recognize the importance of the scene. I don't think a trailer should be so heavily reliant on knowing key details from a game the majority of Switch owners have not played. With the others, you don't have to fully recognize or understand the story of the games they came from at all to appreciate the reveal.

I'd say it's still a niche title that only 3-4% of 3DS owners and only around 5% of Switch owners own. It's doing better than Fire Emblem ever has in the past with the most popular game pre-Awakening only selling around 77 million, so that's a win, but still a niche title in a niche genre.

What would you consider Metroid, out of curiosity? Because FE: Awakening, FE: Fates Conquest, FE: Fates Birthright and FE: Echoes Shadows of Valentia each outsold both Metroid: Samus Returns and Metroid Prime: Federation Force on the 3DS. All of those titles besides Echoes also outsold every Metroid game besides the original and Prime 1. And that's not even counting Three Houses's 2.3 million in its first three months. Or the 15 million downloads of FE: Heroes. Or its $500 million earnings as of a year ago, more than Mario, Animal Crossing and Dragalia combined. Or the 1million+ sales of FE: Warriors, a Warriors spin-off that the only Nintendo franchise to get one besides FE was Zelda.

I've never once seen Metroid called "niche" though. So I'm wondering what your personal qualifications for "niche" are on a more neutral front. Especially since the % of 3DS/Switch owners who have a Banjo Kazooie/Persona/KoF game is very likely lower, considering the series' sales (or lack of games) on Nintendo consoles. (Every 3DS FE game outsold Persona Q, for example.) That's an example of skewing stats to favor your point.

To be clear, I'm not trying to convince you FE "deserves" its amount of fighters. I'm pointing out the skew and flaws in your logic.

 

[meleebrawler]

The fact that it's a Fire Emblem character is a disappointment for many, but I don't think that's why the trailer sucked. The trailer sucked because it requires firsthand knowledge about Three Houses to even be able to appreciate it. Only around 5% of Switch owners bought the game going by current sales figures, so only they're able to recognize the importance of the scene. I don't think a trailer should be so heavily reliant on knowing key details from a game the majority of Switch owners have not played. With the others, you don't have to fully recognize or understand the story of the games they came from at all to appreciate the reveal.

I'd say it's still a niche title that only 3-4% of 3DS owners and only around 5% of Switch owners own. It's doing better than Fire Emblem ever has in the past with the most popular game pre-Awakening only selling around 77 million, so that's a win, but still a niche title in a niche genre.

Hair isn't blue? Coulda fooled me going by that trailer.

What exactly do you need to understand that scene? It's never built up or foreshadowed at any point in the game itself, and is really just a set up for the spoiler related to alts 7 & 8, which doesn't actually happen here.

Hero gets caught in trap, escapes by being awesome. That's all you need to know. The trailer actually omits the finer details of how he really escapes in the game, for comedy.

I'd actually argue the Banjo trailer is harder to understand for a layman, who would probably think the trailer is a lazy rehash of K. Rool's if they didn't know about the Rare ties. And it's not a given people follow companies or even really pay attention to who makes the games they play.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

What would you consider Metroid, out of curiosity? Because FE: Awakening, FE: Fates Conquest, FE: Fates Birthright and FE: Echoes Shadows of Valentia each outsold both Metroid: Samus Returns and Metroid Prime: Federation Force on the 3DS. All of those titles besides Echoes also outsold every Metroid game besides the original and Prime 1. And that's not even counting Three Houses's 2.3 million in its first three months. Or the 15 million downloads of FE: Heroes. Or its $500 million earnings as of a year ago, more than Mario, Animal Crossing and Dragalia combined. Or the 1million+ sales of FE: Warriors, a Warriors spin-off that the only Nintendo franchise to get one besides FE was Zelda.

I've never once seen Metroid called "niche" though. So I'm wondering what your personal qualifications for "niche" are on a more neutral front. Especially since the % of 3DS/Switch owners who have a Banjo Kazooie/Persona/KoF game is very likely lower, considering the series' sales (or lack of games) on Nintendo consoles. (Every 3DS FE game outsold Persona Q, for example.) That's an example of skewing stats to favor your point.

To be clear, I'm not trying to convince you FE "deserves" its amount of fighters. I'm pointing out the skew and flaws in your logic.

Sure, Metroid is a pretty niche title as well. I don't know if pointing out anything outselling Federation Force really does anything as even Metroid fans gave that game a pretty icy reception purely due to it not being an actual Metroid game. Metroid is beloved, but it's never been anywhere near as popular as Mario or Zelda has. I don't really care about the profits of a mobile game designed to suck money out of 1% of their playerbase. Warriors games get made of so many things, Zelda and Fire Emblem are probably the only Nintendo franchises they'd make sense with.

Banjo and Persona are absolutely niche. Hell, Persona is a spinoff game series, so it's definitely a niche title. Terry wasn't exclusive to KOF or even Fatal Fury, but was the mascot for the entire company, much in the way Mega Man was for Capcom and Mario is for Nintendo. You don't really have to play his game to be able to recognize the character. At what point did I say Persona Q sold especially well? I'm not really sure what exactly you're trying to argue there.

What exactly do you need to understand that scene? It's never built up or foreshadowed at any point in the game itself, and is really just a set up for the spoiler related to alts 7 & 8, which doesn't actually happen here.

Hero gets caught in trap, escapes by being awesome. That's all you need to know. The trailer actually omits the finer details of how he really escapes in the game, for comedy.

I'd actually argue the Banjo trailer is harder to understand for a layman, who would probably think the trailer is a lazy rehash of K. Rool's if they didn't know about the Rare ties. And it's not a given people follow companies or even really pay attention to who makes the games they play.

Nobody outside of 3 Houses players will recognize the characters in the trailer or understand what's even going on or what they're referring to. It fails to create much hype to those who don't know the characters already. The only interesting aspect to a layman is the explanation of character mechanics which are at least different.

The Banjo trailer doesn't require any further information than to have seen K Rool's, and it barely takes that to appreciate the second time Smash characters tried to troll a reveal. The Rare ties aren't necessary to appreciate the trailer, they merely enhance it.

 

[Tails the Fox]

And for the last time, stop making "hoes mad" jokes about people who didn't orgasm immediately when Byleth was announced. Not everyone is a superfan of FE3H, they shouldn't be expected to be head over heels for it. Everyone should at least be happy for the FE fans who got what they wanted, but they have a right to be disappointed. I'm not saying it's happening on this thread, but just take a look on the internet and you'll realize that right now certain parts of the FE fanbase are acting infinitely more immature than the people who dislike Byleth's inclusion. Saying "hoes mad" doesn't make you hot ****. It makes you look like a 12 year old.

I think sayings "hoes mad" is a fun joke. Stop putting everyone into two groups. Acting like everyone either "orgasm" at Byleth or not. Because I don't like FE. Don't hate it either. Just don't care much about it. I'm neutral but when there are a bunch of people who are acting super salty about it I think it's fair to point and laugh.


Overall. I'm fine with Byleth. People need to understand that Sakurai with Smash Ultimate was not going for fan requests. He was going for what he could get and what he found fun.

I mean after what happened with Bayonetta...

 

[meleebrawler]

Sure, Metroid is a pretty niche title as well. I don't know if pointing out anything outselling Federation Force really does anything as even Metroid fans gave that game a pretty icy reception purely due to it not being an actual Metroid game. Metroid is beloved, but it's never been anywhere near as popular as Mario or Zelda has. I don't really care about the profits of a mobile game designed to suck money out of 1% of their playerbase. Warriors games get made of so many things, Zelda and Fire Emblem are probably the only Nintendo franchises they'd make sense with.

Banjo and Persona are absolutely niche. Hell, Persona is a spinoff game series, so it's definitely a niche title. Terry wasn't exclusive to KOF or even Fatal Fury, but was the mascot for the entire company, much in the way Mega Man was for Capcom and Mario is for Nintendo. You don't really have to play his game to be able to recognize the character. At what point did I say Persona Q sold especially well? I'm not really sure what exactly you're trying to argue there.


Nobody outside of 3 Houses players will recognize the characters in the trailer or understand what's even going on or what they're referring to. It fails to create much hype to those who don't know the characters already. The only interesting aspect to a layman is the explanation of character mechanics which are at least different.

The Banjo trailer doesn't require any further information than to have seen K Rool's, and it barely takes that to appreciate the second time Smash characters tried to troll a reveal. The Rare ties aren't necessary to appreciate the trailer, they merely enhance it.

Can't you say much the same thing about any trailer? I hadn't the foggiest who Snake was in Brawl. You won't know what the big shadow menacing Shulk is unless you've played Xenoblade Chronicles, or why Luigi is fighting monsters in a haunted castle unless you know Luigi's Mansion and/or Castlevania. Ryu's trailer references an opening only certain versions of Street Fighter II have, and you won't know how Geese Howard falls off a building if you don't play all the way through Fatal Fury.

The content of a trailer doesn't matter, if you don't know the source material it's impact will always be far less. My only gripe with it is simply not being very suspenseful on who the fighter is.

 

[Perkilator]

Y’know, if the TH Rep was Claude instead of Byleth (which I think I would’ve preferred), how do you think he would be received?

 

[fogbadge]

Y’know, if the TH Rep was Claude instead of Byleth (which I think I would’ve preferred), how do you think he would be received?

about the same but with everyone saying "at least he hasnt got a sword"

 

[Nah]

Sales figures are typically only brought up when it suits a person's argument. When someone likes the new inclusion, it's "the sales are good enough to say it is deserving of this". When someone doesn't like it, it's "the sales don't support this, it's too niche". When someone points out that the sales figure bit doesn't hold water, well, there's always some other justification for it. That's how it for most arguments on this sort of topic--the community's various made up rules and reasonings on representation only apply when they want it to.

At the end of the day, all this really boils down to is that Fire Emblem is this community's favorite scapegoat to use when they don't get what they want. People could use to take a step back and realize that everyone's getting super emotional, that the salt and divisiveness stems from something like a single character making it into a video game that already has nearly 80 playable characters in it and is set have more than 80 by the end of this year.

It could've been a lot worse anyway.

 

[Lenidem]

Sales figures are typically only brought up when it suits a person's argument. When someone likes the new inclusion, it's "the sales are good enough to say it is deserving of this". When someone doesn't like it, it's "the sales don't support this, it's too niche". When someone points out that the sales figure bit doesn't hold water, well, there's always some other justification for it. That's how it for most arguments on this sort of topic--the community's various made up rules and reasonings on representation only apply when they want it to.

At the end of the day, all this really boils down to is that Fire Emblem is this community's favorite scapegoat to use when they don't get what they want. People could use to take a step back and realize that everyone's getting super emotional, that the salt and divisiveness stems from something like a single character making it into a video game that already has nearly 80 playable characters in it and is set have more than 80 by the end of this year.

It could've been a lot worse anyway.

It can always be worse. But right now we're talking about this character.

 

[Deleted member]

I've said this before in the Newcomer Spec. thread but I can give Nintendo and Sakurai a pass for adding another FE rep.

I've never played an FE game or ever plan to in the future. I have no attachment to the series whatsoever and frankly it's one that I just don't care about. However, we're going to have 11 DLC characters in total. If we were only getting the 5 in this first pass then maybe I'd feel a little differently but we're getting 11 and so far the previous 4 have been great additions. So yeah, I'll give them a pass and as long as Byleth is fun to play I have zero objections.

 

[Zenpie]

Out of all the DLC reveals, this one is my favourite lol.

 

[Oddball]

I've said this before in the Newcomer Spec. thread but I can give Nintendo and Sakurai a pass for adding another FE rep.

I've never played an FE game or ever plan to in the future. I have no attachment to the series whatsoever and frankly it's one that I just don't care about. However, we're going to have 11 DLC characters in total. If we were only getting the 5 in this first pass then maybe I'd feel a little differently but we're getting 11 and so far the previous 4 have been great additions. So yeah, I'll give them a pass and as long as Byleth is fun to play I have zero objections.

I'm with you. They added Simon, one of my top absolute wants to the core roster. Everybody since then has just been gravy.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Sales figures are typically only brought up when it suits a person's argument. When someone likes the new inclusion, it's "the sales are good enough to say it is deserving of this". When someone doesn't like it, it's "the sales don't support this, it's too niche". When someone points out that the sales figure bit doesn't hold water, well, there's always some other justification for it. That's how it for most arguments on this sort of topic--the community's various made up rules and reasonings on representation only apply when they want it to.

At the end of the day, all this really boils down to is that Fire Emblem is this community's favorite scapegoat to use when they don't get what they want. People could use to take a step back and realize that everyone's getting super emotional, that the salt and divisiveness stems from something like a single character making it into a video game that already has nearly 80 playable characters in it and is set have more than 80 by the end of this year.

It could've been a lot worse anyway.

I know you're not directly referencing me, but to clarify, I never said the sales don't support the game being part of Smash, just using it to explain what I see as a niche series. It's not me saying that because it's a niche series, it doesn't belong in the game.

 

[staindgrey]

Sure, Metroid is a pretty niche title as well. I don't know if pointing out anything outselling Federation Force really does anything as even Metroid fans gave that game a pretty icy reception purely due to it not being an actual Metroid game. Metroid is beloved, but it's never been anywhere near as popular as Mario or Zelda has. I don't really care about the profits of a mobile game designed to suck money out of 1% of their playerbase. Warriors games get made of so many things, Zelda and Fire Emblem are probably the only Nintendo franchises they'd make sense with.

Banjo and Persona are absolutely niche. Hell, Persona is a spinoff game series, so it's definitely a niche title. Terry wasn't exclusive to KOF or even Fatal Fury, but was the mascot for the entire company, much in the way Mega Man was for Capcom and Mario is for Nintendo. You don't really have to play his game to be able to recognize the character. At what point did I say Persona Q sold especially well? I'm not really sure what exactly you're trying to argue there.

I'm not trying to argue anything. I'm trying to get clarification on what "niche" is and providing examples of other series currently represented in Smash that are not constantly referred to as "niche" in discussions of their merit.

IMO, the concept of a "niche" title no longer applies to Fire Emblem, a series that has its own convention every year. Yet detractors constantly use the word disparagingly, but I've never heard it applied to the games in Smash that FE has outsold, or outlived, or outperformed. When it wins the fan-voted GOTY in the biggest game awards show in the West, I'm not sure what more it can do to be considered "popular" instead of "niche".

Also IMO, Persona is even less niche than Fire Emblem "is". You and I have a much different definition of the word.

 

[Lenidem]

Is this word really pejorative anyway? I don't know, I'm asking.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I'm not trying to argue anything. I'm trying to get clarification on what "niche" is and providing examples of other series currently represented in Smash that are not constantly referred to as "niche" in discussions of their merit.

IMO, the concept of a "niche" title no longer applies to Fire Emblem, a series that has its own convention every year. Yet detractors constantly use the word disparagingly, but I've never heard it applied to the games in Smash that FE has outsold, or outlived, or outperformed. When it wins the fan-voted GOTY in the biggest game awards show in the West, I'm not sure what more it can do to be considered "popular" instead of "niche".

Also IMO, Persona is even less niche than Fire Emblem "is". You and I have a much different definition of the word.

Completely depends on how you define it. Niche to me applies to a series or product favored by a minority audience compared to the wider gaming audience. It might not seem as niche when you compare it to other JRPGs, but compare it to games as a whole and it's not as widespread. Do the same with Fire Emblem, a series that has only broken 1 million sales with three games (One of those times because the story was split into multiple games) in it's 17 game series. It might be pretty popular in Tactical RPG circles or even just Nintendo circles, but compare it to the wider world of video games and it's a drop in the bucket by comparison especially outside of Japan where it only garnered interest because of Smash introducing characters to us. Persona and Fire Emblem are gaining popularity, and I'm glad, they're both good series and frankly I'd be happy if everyone could play at least one of the games in each franchise, but they're not household names the way that Mario, Zelda, Final Fantasy, or Dragon Quest are. (DQ more in Japan than the US, where it's far more popular than FF)

Which games that became franchises other than F-Zero has Fire Emblem outlived out of curiosity? F-Zero is the only one I can think of where they just stopped making games without the creator saying that the series story was complete.

 

[Tortfeasor]

The reveal of Byleth being the next DLC fighter was controversial enough that I finally felt compelled to make profile on Smash Boards and comment!

For those who were hoping Byleth would make it in, congratulations! It's really exciting when a character you've wanted makes it into the roster (I had wanted Ridley in since Melee!). He seems a bit different than the other FE swordspersons and I look forward to meeting him/her on the Battlefield.

That being said, I can't help but feel some disappointment with the reveal. I wasn't really rooting for any other character beyond just someone classic and out of left-field pick who would bring something unique to the game. I thought the previous picks were mostly great as they brought unique moves and/or their history with them. I didn't and don't care for Joker, but when you fight an army of Jokers online, any novelty wears off pretty quick. My disappointment with Byleth can be traced to two things; s/he's yet another Fire Emblem character, and yet another swordsperson.

Though I have never played a Fire Emblem game (I want to give Three Houses a try), I appreciate that a lot of people really enjoy them, so it is perfectly natural the series receives some representation in Smash. When Marth and Roy were introduced in Melee, I had no idea who they were or what Fire Emblem was beyond a preview I saw in Nintendo Power in or around 1994, but I generally liked their inclusion. I thought Ike was pretty neat when he was introduced in Brawl and Robin brought something unique in Smash 4. But, with the Smash 4 DLC and now Ultimate, it just seems like each new Fire Emblem release gets represented in Smash through their one-off protagonists, which is unprecedented for any other series. To me, Smash was about celebrating the icons of iconic series. For example, to represent Metroid, Samus and Ridley are iconic; they appear in nearly every game and its hard to imagine Metroid without either. For the Legend of Zelda, Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf were chosen as they best represent the series as a whole. Even Cloud, who really only appears in a couple games, probably best represents the Final Fantasy series as a whole (even though I'd much prefer someone with actual personality like Terra). I would agree FE has become an iconic series, but Byleth is just another one-off silent protagonist in a line of one-off silent protagonists. The disappointing and somewhat worrying trend is that we can pretty much expect that each time a Fire Emblem game is released, the avatar (or someone else maybe) for that game will make it into Smash, which is something that does not happen for other series.

My second source of disappointment is that Byleth is yet another swordsperson. I've read arguments to the effect that sword users make only a small percentage of the roster, so it's okay to have another one. My issue is not the percentage of the roster they form, but rather the percentage of the other fighters I meet online (I would guess locals might have a better representation of the entire roster, but there aren't any where I'm at). I have gone entire sessions where the only opponents I faced were swordspersons. It gets boring and frustrating in equal measure. Boring because I have to face a barrage of Nair/Fair spam. Frustrating because some characters I enjoy playing are effectively neutered by the disjointed attacks of swordspersons. Byleth will just exacerbate the situation.

I have also read arguments that Byleth has multiple weapons, so it's not as bad as having a full swordsperson. Well, if we consider that a sword is merely just a disjointed hitbox and the other weapons operate in the same fashion, there isn't any meaningful difference between Byleth using a sword for an attack versus a spear or an axe (or the bow in his Nair). Essentially, all of Byleth's attacks are disjointed and in some cases have greater reach than other swordspersons (his/her Fair, Uair, and side special come to mind). Therefore, in some ways, Byleth further exacerbates the general gripes of playing against a swordsperson. I'm definitely not looking forward to using Donkey Kong against him/her.

However, I appreciate that some effort was made to vary the way in which Byleth attacks. My general gripe against swordspersons is that it seems the designers have very limited ideas about how to design sword attacks. For example, many attacks are merely sweeping swings of their sword that cover a large arc around their body. For example, take a typical FE fighter; their Fair covers nearly the full 180 degrees from over their head to under their feet. Byleth one the other hand at least has a more linear Fair. Pretty much any Fsmash for a swordsperson covers and arc from just behind them, over their head, and in front of them, whereas Byleth's is a linear (though long) stab. That being said, they certainly made sure Byleth has enough moves to cover the area around him (Nair and air side special for example).

Despite my complaints, I'm really just mildly disappointed and a little concerned what this means going forward. It just seems like FE gets an undue amount of attention in Smash and the characters generally lack so much of the personality that makes Smash fun. Should FE be represented? Hell yes! I'd even say given the popularity of Three Houses, Byleth is an obvious addition to the roster. But, I wish some thought had gone into how to best represent FE as a whole in Smash, rather than cater to the flavour of the moment.

 

[fogbadge]

Sales figures are typically only brought up when it suits a person's argument. When someone likes the new inclusion, it's "the sales are good enough to say it is deserving of this". When someone doesn't like it, it's "the sales don't support this, it's too niche". When someone points out that the sales figure bit doesn't hold water, well, there's always some other justification for it. That's how it for most arguments on this sort of topic--the community's various made up rules and reasonings on representation only apply when they want it to.

At the end of the day, all this really boils down to is that Fire Emblem is this community's favorite scapegoat to use when they don't get what they want. People could use to take a step back and realize that everyone's getting super emotional, that the salt and divisiveness stems from something like a single character making it into a video game that already has nearly 80 playable characters in it and is set have more than 80 by the end of this year.

It could've been a lot worse anyway.

it already has more than 80

 

[lordvaati]

Ahh, I gotcha. That looks pretty bad.
There are currently no competitively viable Fire Emblem stages. It'd be nice to get something added to the game via DLC that can shake up the competitive scene outside of characters.

Siege was a counterpick in Brawl and Ferox a counterpick on 3DS.

I'd say that's fair enough, the stagelist does not need to be constant since every game community always inevitably chops it down to 5-8 legal ones in the end. Offering more options is just a waste of dev time if they get ditched anyway which is why they settled with hazardless and BF/Omega options instead.

 

[Planet Cool]

I'm definitely bummed out about Byleth. Out of all the series Smash represents, Fire Emblem is the one I like least, and nothing in that Direct made Byleth look fun or interesting at all. Even the stage looks lame, just four walk-offs with some destructible bits. Any of the rumored characters like Dante and Arle Nadja would've been way better.

At least first-parties are back on the table, as others have said. I have renewed hope (but not much) for Dixie Kong and classic Ganon.

 

[Wigglerman]

I'm mostly 'bummed' because FE just doesn't resonate with me. Though I'd suppose this would be the opposite reaction for me that the rest of the community had. I love Incineroar, so him being revealed pretty much last was hype for me and I play a LOT of Macho Cat. A LOT. So the end reveal of DLC being another blue haired swordie merely made me shrug. It felt a bit too predictable. We all know Nintendo is pushing FE hardcore and now that it's gotten a lot of traction, it'd be bound to happen. However I thought that, at the VERY least, a FE rep would be in the second pass. After all, FE did get a new rep in the base roster with Chrom (Even if he is a weird hodge podge echo).

But to those who are excited, I'm happy for them. I'll be buying Byleth because I ain't no fool who doesn't complete the roster. I'll likely still be trying out Byleth (I always play the new characters to help better understand how they work and thus better counter them a bit). I may even find I like playing the character and if I do, that'd be cool to have a FE character click with me (Only Corrin did in Smash 4, genuinely enjoyed how the character felt to play but don't play Corrin much now not because of being 'bad' but because Pac-Man is just so much more fun to play and he was my boy in 4 so Pac-Hype this game is real).

But with 6 new additions on the horizion, a lot more than we thought, I'm not even mad. Not even really 'disappointed' just sort of 'ah, there it is' moment. At least the band-aid got ripped off NOW and the next 6 will LIKELY not contain another FE member (Unless they are fresh in design and play style. Granted Byleth won't play like the core 4 swordies, so that alone lessened any 'sting' the character reveal might of had).