L-Canceling

[Road Death Wheel]

Give L- canceling a limited amount of uses like cancels in other fighters or give us a reason to not use it over normal landing at times.

 

[Empyrean]

I remember someone suggesting that l-cancelling should reduce the size of your shield. That way, people would think twice before nair-planing or just randomly throwing shuffls here and there. This could be interesting, but I personally prefer the normal one, either manually or automatically.

 

[Riposte__]

No.

you can Disagree with me if you are really desperate to be wrong. For comparison: (melee) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPFwS7WpOE4 and (smash64)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q9Rg0-RHjg In the very first attack in the smash 4 demo, the cape sends MM away about 2 character lengths. The combination of little to no hitstun, ridiculous distance for basic attacks, and multiple dodges= brawl 2 and no combos (or 4 more years of melee)

 

[J1NG]

Is wrong.

My personal opinion is wrong?

 

[LancerStaff]

you can Disagree with me if you are really desperate to be wrong. For comparison: (melee) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XPFwS7WpOE4 and (smash64)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q9Rg0-RHjg In the very first attack in the smash 4 demo, the cape sends MM away about 2 character lengths. The combination of little to no hitstun, ridiculous distance for basic attacks, and multiple dodges= brawl 2 and no combos (or 4 more years of melee)

To be honest, I remember that battle being all kinds of messed up. Mega's dsmash doing crazy damage, no stale moves, a wonky edge thing which I can't remember exactly, (somebody missed the ledge when it was clearly in range or something) and what you said and how it looks like it contradicts the trailers. I'm not too sure if that video can be trusted.

 

[Riposte__]

To be honest, I remember that battle being all kinds of messed up. Mega's dsmash doing crazy damage, no stale moves, a wonky edge thing which I can't remember exactly, (somebody missed the ledge when it was clearly in range or something) and what you said and how it looks like it contradicts the trailers. I'm not too sure if that video can be trusted.

Like I said before, w'll have to see what the game plays like when we play at e3, and further when the game is released

 

[Shadow the Past]

Technical skill is praised far more in competitive games more than intellectual skill, which I think is a big detriment to all competitive fighting games, not just Smash.

That said, L-cancelling is just a mechanic to add more tecnical inputs to the game without adding more depth. Yeah, you can cancel your landing aerials faster and do another input faster, but what depth does that add that autocancelling wouldn't? If you're looking to add depth, you need to add something more than just "You must do this every single time or you will not be good enough". Something with depth could be that when you press L when you land with an aerial, you will have less landing lag. But if you press R when you land with an aerial, you'll put out some kind of hitbox (relative to the aerial) but will give you more landing lag. This adds more depth and more yomi layers, but this is just a mindless example.

tl;dr Yomi > Tech

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It's one button.

I mean, if you really don't want to focus so much on l-canceling, there are characters like Sheik and Marth who've got fast aerials with low landing lag.
You've also got Jigglypuff and Kirby.
If we're talking about twisting fingers into gnarled knots, that's some TAS-level Fox/Ness/Peach stuff, and really, Fox's basic drillshine pressure can be learned in a matter of days -- and keep in mind that this is only one way to play these characters.
You can develop your own playstyle that revolves more around getting grabs/zoning/whatever you want, but if you're upset about the difficulty of some of the more effective tech-heavy methods, that seems like you've a bit more of an issue with the character itself and people who chose to learn that stuff (who are not entirely immune to getting shieldgrabbed).

Tech alone (namely l-canceling) won't win you matches; I used to be a purely tech-focused Fox main and I got wrecked by a Mewtwo, a Samus, and a Kirby.
I've played a bunch of matches against tech-heavy Fox/Falco players that didn't know how to fight; I hardly had to do more than a few uthrows/utilts in a ditto.
Proper spacing is still important, reading your opponent is still important, and, of course, execution is important.
Tech ain't absolutely necessary (Jigglypuff), but it can help a lot (Fox), and it's not entirely impossible to beat someone who uses the existing techs (Jigglypuff vs Fox).

Now, if we go into autocancels, that's fine and dandy, but the fact is that you still have to learn how to use your character; whether or not you choose to use the full (humanly possible) potential of that character is up to you.

This is another topic that boils down to opinion I think. Perhaps for you, L-canceling and Drillshining and the like were easy for you to pick up, but for someone like myself who happens to have stupid fingers and only just recently learned how to freakin' perform a Hadouken, making things easier on the technical level is a massive help in trying to actually play competitively. However, I do completely agree with you on the fact that you need to know your character. Knowing what works and what doesn't in any given situation is most important, at least to me. I dunno, again, I personally think it'd be nice if L-cancel was gone and we just lowered landing lag on aerial moves, but again, opinion.

 

[otter]

personally think it'd be nice if L-cancel was gone and we just lowered landing lag on aerial moves, but again, opinion.

I think even people who like l canceling could live with this. Brawl is the worst case senerio because being punished for making your opponent block is a conflict of interest. It would be like every time you damaged your opponent you take that damage plus ten percent.

 

[Thirdkoopa]

I personally think it'd be nice if L-cancel was gone and we just lowered landing lag on aerial moves, but again, opinion.

I'm totally okay with this.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

I am very disappointed in all of you for seeing an L-cancelling thread on the top 3 most active Smash 4 threads this far into the cycle.
We don't want L-cancelling, we want reduced landing lag if anything.

 

[Pazzo.]

I am very disappointed in all of you for seeing an L-cancelling thread on the top 3 most active Smash 4 threads this far into the cycle.
We don't want L-cancelling, we want reduced landing lag if anything.

This.

We don't need a super-technical game, remember the KISS rule.

 

[Anthon1996]

I remember an old Brawl trailer where it looked like Mario ledge-cancelled his f-air. Of course, ledge-cancelling didn't make it into the final game. If they don't bring back lag-cancelling for Smash 4, they should at least bring back ledge-cancelling; it wasn't really hard to do in Melee.

 

[Ulevo]

I am very disappointed in all of you for seeing an L-cancelling thread on the top 3 most active Smash 4 threads this far into the cycle.
We don't want L-cancelling, we want reduced landing lag if anything.

Speak for yourself, friend.

 

[mimgrim]

This.

We don't need a super-technical game, remember the KISS rule.

I have to ask though.

What is complicated about L-cancel? How is it not simple? How does it make the game super technical. How does L-cancel break the KISS rule?

Hell. Even Melee isn't that super technical of a game when you get down to it, except when you play Fox, and to a lesser extent Falco, and Ice Climbers.

 

[Thor]

I've read something to this effect several times, so I'll do my best to repeat it...

"It is a tech with no reason to never perform it. It adds an unnecessary barrier - you only ever see at the top level someone being punished for missing an L-cancel, while getting an L-cancel is not a boon to turn the tide. The game could simply have all aerials with half landing lag and no L-cancelling and all that would happen is that fewer combos would be dropped because of a missed L-cancel."

The counter of course being that with halved landing lag on everything, n00bs would spam and call certain stuff OP (Link dair if Smash 64 had auto-L-cancelled lag and no l-cancelling), but it's true it doesn't really add depth to the game, if by depth one means increasing the options someone has available. It's just something that is a punishment if you mess it up.

It may not be super technical, but it adds something that doesn't have inherent value - it's "uselessly technical, just a way to raise someone's APM/IPM" on the game.

I'm not exactly doing what others have said justice, but I'm not doing a terrible job either (I don't think) and I agree with them.

Just, if Ganon comes back, don't mess up the auto-cancel timing function on his fair please...

 

[Pazzo.]

I've read something to this effect several times, so I'll do my best to repeat it...

"It is a tech with no reason to never perform it. It adds an unnecessary barrier - you only ever see at the top level someone being punished for missing an L-cancel, while getting an L-cancel is not a boon to turn the tide. The game could simply have all aerials with half landing lag and no L-cancelling and all that would happen is that fewer combos would be dropped because of a missed L-cancel."

The counter of course being that with halved landing lag on everything, n00bs would spam and call certain stuff OP (Link dair if Smash 64 had auto-L-cancelled lag and no l-cancelling), but it's true it doesn't really add depth to the game, if by depth one means increasing the options someone has available. It's just something that is a punishment if you mess it up.

It may not be super technical, but it adds something that doesn't have inherent value - it's "uselessly technical, just a way to raise someone's APM/IPM" on the game.

I'm not exactly doing what others have said justice, but I'm not doing a terrible job either (I don't think) and I agree with them.

Just, if Ganon comes back, don't mess up the auto-cancel timing function on his fair please...

I have to ask though.

What is complicated about L-cancel? How is it not simple? How does it make the game super technical. How does L-cancel break the KISS rule?

Hell. Even Melee isn't that super technical of a game when you get down to it, except when you play Fox, and to a lesser extent Falco, and Ice Climbers.

Hmm.. you both make good points. I've never gotten into Melee, so that may be why I'm used to no L-Canceling. I'd still prefer less landing lag, but I can see what you both are saying.

 

[mimgrim]

I've read something to this effect several times, so I'll do my best to repeat it...

"It is a tech with no reason to never perform it. It adds an unnecessary barrier - you only ever see at the top level someone being punished for missing an L-cancel, while getting an L-cancel is not a boon to turn the tide. The game could simply have all aerials with half landing lag and no L-cancelling and all that would happen is that fewer combos would be dropped because of a missed L-cancel."

The counter of course being that with halved landing lag on everything, n00bs would spam and call certain stuff OP (Link dair if Smash 64 had auto-L-cancelled lag and no l-cancelling), but it's true it doesn't really add depth to the game, if by depth one means increasing the options someone has available. It's just something that is a punishment if you mess it up.

It may not be super technical, but it adds something that doesn't have inherent value - it's "uselessly technical, just a way to raise someone's APM/IPM" on the game.

I'm not exactly doing what others have said justice, but I'm not doing a terrible job either (I don't think) and I agree with them.

Just, if Ganon comes back, don't mess up the auto-cancel timing function on his fair please...

Anyway. As someone who has played Gears of War, albeit not competitively (though I really really really want to) due to lack of reliable WiFi. But it does have a mechanic that is comparable to L-cancel. It's called Active Reloading. When you reload your weapon in that game a little bar will appear on the screen with a somewhat medium sized grey section and a small section with the rest being a black section. If you hit the reload button again while the cursor is in the black part of the reload you jam your reload and it takes even longer. If you hit the grey part it speeds up your reload. And if you hit the white part you damage out put increased along with the speed increase. Now this mechanic might be more accepted because it has a risk factor to it, but technically speaking I believe L-cancel does have a risk (albeit much minor) risk to it in that you can't Tech if you get hit during the L-cancel (I know this is the case for PM and I think it is also the case for Melee but I don't remember), but the same principal is still there. There is no reason to not hit the white section and you will always want to and eventually it will become so ingrained into your muscle memory that you can hit the white section without looking at it, though I haven't reached that point yet though. So it would be pretty hypocritical of me to be ok with this mechanic but not with L-cancel, even though I wouldn't care a great deal if it doesn't come back anyway. So really if the GoW mechanic, that I explained, sounds ok to you then I don't see how you could have a problem with L-cancel.

It's the same concept in principal, except with the addition of being punished if you press the button to early or late. The only big difference is that one game teaches you the mechanic and the other doesn't, and for whatever reason that seems to matter to people even though I don't get why the game teaching you it actually matter but w/e on that. But like with L-cancel. You don't ever not want to do it because increasing your reload speed and damage output is too goo to pass up yet the mechanic is no where near as controversial as L-cancel is in Smash.

 

[Sluigi123]

I've read something to this effect several times, so I'll do my best to repeat it...

"It is a tech with no reason to never perform it. It adds an unnecessary barrier - you only ever see at the top level someone being punished for missing an L-cancel, while getting an L-cancel is not a boon to turn the tide. The game could simply have all aerials with half landing lag and no L-cancelling and all that would happen is that fewer combos would be dropped because of a missed L-cancel."

The counter of course being that with halved landing lag on everything, n00bs would spam and call certain stuff OP (Link dair if Smash 64 had auto-L-cancelled lag and no l-cancelling), but it's true it doesn't really add depth to the game, if by depth one means increasing the options someone has available. It's just something that is a punishment if you mess it up.

It may not be super technical, but it adds something that doesn't have inherent value - it's "uselessly technical, just a way to raise someone's APM/IPM" on the game.

I'm not exactly doing what others have said justice, but I'm not doing a terrible job either (I don't think) and I agree with them.

Just, if Ganon comes back, don't mess up the auto-cancel timing function on his fair please...

I have heard about it a while back.

Those of you who already notice, or don't notice it yet, all land-lag canceling is different in each of the Smash games:

Z-Canceling from SSB64; Pressing Z, puts you into normal landing lag state.
L-Canceling from SSBM; Pressing L/R, gives you 50% less landing lag from an aerial attack.
A-Canceling from SSBM & SSBB; Short for Auto-Cancel, meaning if any aerial attack is timed correctly before landing, will automatically put you into a normal landing state, similar to the landing lag in SSB64. No button press needed.

This just shows that the next Smash game might have a completely different style of land-lag cancelling than any of the previous games, which means L-Canceling may not come back. Sakurai didn't say anything about landing-lag canceling in general throughout all of his appearances, nor in manuals (not counting Internet), so you'll have to find it yourself; also meaning he'll be doing the same thing in the upcoming games.

I have no clue why this thread was brought up in the first place, but let me get this straight. Landing-Lag canceling is not easy, but not hard at the same time. Those of you who make it hard, practice always makes perfect. For example, it took me a long time to perfect it, since I first started playing Melee, back in 2001. Did I talk anything negative about something I never knew about? No. What I did was ask people, or keep playing in order to gain experience from the game. You'll learn something new in any game at least once every week or month. I for one don't use Land-Lag Canceling all the time, but only at a competitive scene, but when it comes to having fun, I don't L-Cancel at all.

Those of you who like the L-Canceling, don't talk negative about the other Smash games, and go play Melee or Project M. This game/mod is recommended for hardcore people, but can still be played at a casual level as well.

Those of you who are not really fans of L-Canceling, go play the other Smash games, cause those games are recommended for casual players but can also be played at a competitive level as well, with Smash 64 as an example.

 

[Thor]

Actually he (or the manual makers) apparently mentions "smooth landing" in the SSB64 instruction manual, saying you hit Z when you're about to hit the ground to reduce landing lag. I don't have the manual so I don't know this and haven't read it myself, but I've seen several people mention this at various points when someone says "it was never put in manuals." Someone should fact-check this.

The games were all intended (with the exception possibly of PM) for all, they just all happen to be conducive to competition thanks to stages that don't tend to interfere too much and the ability to disable [all, but especially explosive] items that interfere and introduce a rather high level of randomness.

EDIT: According to this, it's never mentioned in the manual: http://www.gamesdbase.com/Media/SYS...mated/Super_Smash_Bros._-_1999_-_Nintendo.pdf
So that would make the above wrong.

 

[otter]

Hmm.. you both make good points. I've never gotten into Melee, so that may be why I'm used to no L-Canceling. I'd still prefer less landing lag, but I can see what you both are saying.

it seems like most people who are against L canceling are missing half of the information lol. Has ANYONE with that stance used the technique?

 

[Ulevo]

it seems like most people who are against L canceling are missing half of the information lol. Has ANYONE with that stance used the technique?

Most people who argue this stand point are players who have newer join dates, have less to no experience with Melee, tournament play, or both, and many of them are casual players who don't care about competitive play.

I'm not saying this is everyone. I know players like TSON are an exception to this, but this is the majority from my observation.

Also Thor, I just checked the manual myself. It doesn't mention L-Cancelling. There's quite a few things the manual doesn't mention. Does mention combos though.

 

[mimgrim]

I have heard about it a while back.

Those of you who already notice, or don't notice it yet, all land-lag canceling is different in each of the Smash games:

Z-Canceling from SSB64; Pressing Z, puts you into normal landing lag state.
L-Canceling from SSBM; Pressing L/R, gives you 50% less landing lag from an aerial attack.
A-Canceling from SSBB; Short for Auto-Cancel, meaning if any aerial attack is timed correctly before landing, will automatically put you into a normal landing state, similar to the landing lag in SSB64. No button press needed.

FYI Auto-canceling is in both Melee and Brawl.

I'm unsure if it is in Smash 64 as well.

But either way. Auto-cancel was not exclusive to Brawl.

 

[Sluigi123]

I thought it was Brawl exculsive, and I know Smash 64 doesn't have it.

EDIT: My apologies, Auto-Canceling is in both Melee and Brawl, but it's slightly easier to do in Brawl, do to the physics.

 

[Anthon1996]

L-Canceling from SSB64; Pressing Z, puts you into normal landing lag state.

It even works when you press R. Hell, it was officially called "smooth landing" anyway. Why haven't we called it that? Make it an acronym! "I need to practice my SLinging!"

 

[Muster]

Also Thor, I just checked the manual myself. It doesn't mention L-Cancelling. There's quite a few things the manual doesn't mention. Does mention combos though.

Actually he (or the manual makers) apparently mentions "smooth landing" in the SSB64 instruction manual, saying you hit Z when you're about to hit the ground to reduce landing lag. I don't have the manual so I don't know this and haven't read it myself, but I've seen several people mention this at various points when someone says "it was never put in manuals." Someone should fact-check this.

It was not in the manual, but in the orginial website for ssb64. there was a techniques section which included things like Dk's carry move as a suicide move, and "smooth landing" as pressing Z before hitting the ground using an aerial.

 

[Thor]

it seems like most people who are against L canceling are missing half of the information lol. Has ANYONE with that stance used the technique?

Care to lay out all the information then?

I L-cancel plenty of stuff (like Link dair, his aerials in general but especially that one, ugly lag on it - also CF dair, CF L-cancelled dair -> Falcon Punch in SSB64 is pretty funny to piss opponents off), I just don't see why including it necessarily adds something to the game...

 

[Sluigi123]

It even works when you press R. Hell, it was officially called "smooth landing" anyway. Why haven't we called it that? Make it an acronym! "I need to practice my SLinging!"

I used to call it that years ago, but people decided to give it a different name for some reason. Also, you're doing great for editing my quotes, good sir.

 

[Thor]

I assume he was just retyping your quote and mistyped... maybe he should learn about type-cancelling (it's done via highlighting and then hitting control and v at the same time, then hitting the right half of the clicky part on a mouse and hitting the left half of the clicky part on a mouse on the word "paste").

Seriously though, I doubt he was actually trying to edit your quotes.

 

[yume_nikki]

Most people who argue this stand point are players who have newer join dates, have less to no experience with Melee, tournament play, or both, and many of them are casual players who don't care about competitive play.

I wouldn't say that people who post in threads about technical/competitive aspects of the game in the biggest competitive smash forum are casual players who don't care about competitive play.


But anyway, I made this account last Friday. Don’t bother to read this.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Actually he (or the manual makers) apparently mentions "smooth landing" in the SSB64 instruction manual, saying you hit Z when you're about to hit the ground to reduce landing lag. I don't have the manual so I don't know this and haven't read it myself, but I've seen several people mention this at various points when someone says "it was never put in manuals." Someone should fact-check this.

The games were all intended (with the exception possibly of PM) for all, they just all happen to be conducive to competition thanks to stages that don't tend to interfere too much and the ability to disable [all, but especially explosive] items that interfere and introduce a rather high level of randomness.

EDIT: According to this, it's never mentioned in the manual: http://www.gamesdbase.com/Media/SYS...mated/Super_Smash_Bros._-_1999_-_Nintendo.pdf
So that would make the above wrong.

Check the web archive for the old smash 64 website. It's on there under techniques.

 

[Terrazi Terrajin]

I rest easy at night knowing smash 4 won't have L cancelling.

 

[Anthon1996]

you're doing great for editing my quotes, good sir.

It did that for no reason! I swear it! Anyway, it's still L-cancelling, not Z-cancelling; the "L" means lag. You don't cancel the Z button. That would make it stop working.

 

[Pazzo.]

Most people who argue this stand point are players who have newer join dates, have less to no experience with Melee, tournament play, or both, and many of them are casual players who don't care about competitive play.

I'm not saying this is everyone. I know players like TSON are an exception to this, but this is the majority from my observation.

Also Thor, I just checked the manual myself. It doesn't mention L-Cancelling. There's quite a few things the manual doesn't mention. Does mention combos though.

I care about competitive play, and I've tried to get into the competitive scene of Melee, but technical barriers keep coming up. It's not that I hate Melee, I just don't prefer it.

 

[RODO]

I'm not trying to hate but anyone who thinks L-cancelling is "too technical for smash" hasn't played a real technical fighting game.

 

[The_Woebegone_Jackal]

Technical skill is praised far more in competitive games more than intellectual skill, which I think is a big detriment to all competitive fighting games, not just Smash.

That said, L-cancelling is just a mechanic to add more tecnical inputs to the game without adding more depth. Yeah, you can cancel your landing aerials faster and do another input faster, but what depth does that add that autocancelling wouldn't? If you're looking to add depth, you need to add something more than just "You must do this every single time or you will not be good enough". Something with depth could be that when you press L when you land with an aerial, you will have less landing lag. But if you press R when you land with an aerial, you'll put out some kind of hitbox (relative to the aerial) but will give you more landing lag. This adds more depth and more yomi layers, but this is just a mindless example.

tl;dr Yomi > Tech

The whole idea really does seem like it could be done without the added input, and I agree that if its there than there needs to be a counterpart reason/advantage as to why you wouldn't want to use it.

Honestly I think those who want more complicated inputs for repetitive actions with no depth make it seem like they are holding onto an advantage that would otherwise make them mediocre players. Say in a tech heavy game player one has all of the advanced techs down, while player two is far more intelligent and a better strategist over all but lacks the tech skills (some people just straight up can't move their hands fast enough etc etc), its not uncommon that player one can just end up overwhelming player two through aps alone.

Having simplified inputs for tedious actions makes it a more level playing field, and lets intelligence decide the outcome of the match more often than who has the fastest fingers. Doing so wouldn't exactly hurt the more technical players either, as they'd have more aps anyway all considered. It just seems unnecessary.

To conclude, either bring back L-canceling with actual depth and reasons to and not to use it, or keep it simple and let aerials auto-cancel on landing.

 

[J1NG]

I rest easy at night knowing smash 4 won't have L cancelling.

I rest easy at night knowing that Melee will be there for me after everyone I know gets bored of the series again.

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm not trying to hate but anyone who thinks L-cancelling is "too technical for smash" hasn't played a real technical fighting game.

So anything that isn't named Super Smash Bros.

 

[otter]

I rest easy at night knowing that Melee will be there for me after everyone I know gets bored of the series again.

Plus, if the new one sucks it will be much harder to guilt people into lying about it this time. If people were allowed to be honest about Brawl it may have fixed everything.

 

[PCHU]

The whole idea really does seem like it could be done without the added input, and I agree that if its there than there needs to be a counterpart reason/advantage as to why you wouldn't want to use it.

Honestly I think those who want more complicated inputs for repetitive actions with no depth make it seem like they are holding onto an advantage that would otherwise make them mediocre players. Say in a tech heavy game player one has all of the advanced techs down, while player two is far more intelligent and a better strategist over all but lacks the tech skills (some people just straight up can't move their hands fast enough etc etc), its not uncommon that player one can just end up overwhelming player two through aps alone.

Having simplified inputs for tedious actions makes it a more level playing field, and lets intelligence decide the outcome of the match more often than who has the fastest fingers. Doing so wouldn't exactly hurt the more technical players either, as they'd have more aps anyway all considered. It just seems unnecessary.

To conclude, either bring back L-canceling with actual depth and reasons to and not to use it, or keep it simple and let aerials auto-cancel on landing.

There's a reason I used Tager in BlazBlue rather than Carl/Arakune/CS Taokaka (that taunt loop was some BS); there's also a reason why I did not even attempt Eddie in Guilty Gear and, for dang sure, there's a reason I don't use Magneto/Felicia in UMvC3.
I use whatever character is within my own skill level; if it takes some quick fingers and more intense muscle memory but I really like the character (Fox/CT Taokaka), I'll practice and practice and practice and, eventually, I'll learn the tech and the way I apply the tech.
If the character is beyond my skill level and the only reason I'd have to learn them is for the benefit of having a top tier character as a secondary (Eddie/Magneto/Ice Climbers [but most of the Brawl CGs ain't all that hard]), I'll drop 'em and move on to what I know I can use and use well.
Like I mentioned on page 4, tech isn't everything, but many of you seem to act like it is.
In a real fighting game, tech skill might lead to better combos or better characters with better combos, but ultimately, you can't get mad at a game for rewarding players who take time out of their day to practice this stuff (why is l-canceling even being argued about) and offering other character choices (Wesker/Brawl Falco/Metaknight/Melee Sheik/Jiggs) for those who maybe have the mind but not the dexterity.
Well, I mean, you can get mad at the game, and you end up with Brawl. (but I enjoy it all the same)