L-Canceling

[RODO]

I just don't understand why something you don't have to do to play the game is such a big deal. Look at people like BORP. He doesn't L-cancel and he still does decent in tournaments.

 

[LancerStaff]

I just don't understand why something you don't have to do to play the game is such a big deal. Look at people like BORP. He doesn't L-cancel and he still does decent in tournaments.

Just because there's an outlier or two doesn't mean much.

 

[Empyrean]

This discussion is pointless. Both sides are too stubborn to be convinced by the other and there is absolutely no way of objectively determining if l-cancelling is good or bad. If there's one thing this thread shows, it's that it's just a matter of preference.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

This discussion is pointless. Both sides are too stubborn to be convinced by the other and there is absolutely no way of objectively determining if l-cancelling is good or bad. If there's one thing this thread shows, it's that it's just a matter of preference.

^This.

This argument is the same as arguing if ice cream is better with sprinkles or without sprinkles.

 

[Ulevo]

This discussion is pointless. Both sides are too stubborn to be convinced by the other and there is absolutely no way of objectively determining if l-cancelling is good or bad. If there's one thing this thread shows, it's that it's just a matter of preference.

More pertinently, it's a matter of designer intent. As much as people in here want to believe there is an objective reason for including L-Cancelling as far as player interaction, decision making, and opportunity is concerned, there simply isn't. L-Cancelling isn't a choice. And as much as people want to believe that that invalidates L-Cancelling as a legitimate inclusion to the Smash series, that's also false since arbitrary technical barriers are devices that have legitimate use. What it comes down to is the vision Sakurai and the development team have for the game and its audience, and which direction they choose to take it.

The conversation is moot because nothing talked about here is going to remove L-Cancelling from Melee, or promote its inclusion in Smash Wii U. We just have to wait and see what happens and accept it as it comes.

 

[LancerStaff]

^This.

This argument is the same as arguing if ice cream is better with sprinkles or without sprinkles.

That's Smash fans for you. Arguing over sprinkles...
Who likes sprinkles anyway?

 

[mimgrim]

This discussion is pointless. Both sides are too stubborn to be convinced by the other and there is absolutely no way of objectively determining if l-cancelling is good or bad. If there's one thing this thread shows, it's that it's just a matter of preference.

That's why people like me who can go either way and don't give a **** are the master race.

 

[Dravidian]

I'll state my opinion and leave.

I can L-cancel but I dont like it in the current state.
There is no strategic reason to not l-cancel.
It has no downsides, is simple, and is used too often to not be automated.
It'd be better to just decrease or remove landing lag.

That being said, if they added a reason to not do it (temporarily improving shield, reducing the start-up of the next ground attack, etc) then I'm all for it. But as it is now it's just a needless mechanic that mean nothing to either noobs vs noobs(they dont know about it) or pros vs pros(they both use it flawlessly which nullifies the benefits and thus the point of it being there).

I'M OUT

 

[J1NG]

To be clear, L-Cancelling does have a strategic choice to it:
Use it to have less landing lag. Don't use it and have more landing lag.
It is a binary strategic choice, and that's not a good thing, but it is still a strategic choice nonetheless.

L-Cancelling is not an arbitrary skill barrier either. That assumption is made when one assumes that there is nothing to gain from implementing it as opposed to just having all attacks be auto-L-Cancelled. L-Cancelling requires the player to have some level of physical discipline, similar to what is required of musicians in order to play more complex works of music. If you can use a controller with your hands, you can L-Cancel. If you are not mentally handicapped, you can compete at the highest levels of Smash.
Without the admittedly binary execution method that is L-Cancelling, people like Zeldafreak wouldn't stand out for their technical prowess, and people like Toph would not be impressed/amazed by them:

Not the best example, just the first that I could think of.
If you think that the skill ceiling of games like Melee should be lower to the detriment of physical discipline, then you would either have to find another game to play or do what you can so that an accommodating game is made.

So yes, L-Cancelling would do well to not be binary, both as an execution method and as a strategic choice. Perhaps pressing the L/R button after each aerial attack really is too much, and Melee veterans are just a bunch of old fogies who put up with a crappy system. But just because something is crappy doesn't mean we can't get something good out of it. Smash 4 has the opportunity to be the best in the series, but even if it isn't, we'll be in that situation again where we have to make the best of what we have. If and when we do, we'll be having fun the way we want to, and that's all that should matter.

 

[Dravidian]

To be clear, L-Cancelling does have a strategic choice to it:
[l-canceling stuff].

[sigh] I guess I'm not out yet.

Anyway, I never said no strategic choice. I said no strategic reason. Big difference.

And as a violinist, guitarist, and soon a pianist I can say your example of musicians is poor. We dont add unnecessary movements, we refine spacing and actually lessen movements and get better at timing (examples: new pianists having their hands too far from keys or new violinists trying to use vibratos with everything or their bouncing bows). Yes, there is a level of dexterity (physical movement speed and precision), but unless an extra movement is specifically done for showmanship, it's frowned upon from a professional standpoint. Every movement or choice not to move has a perfect time and place in high level musicianship; l-canceling does not share that similarity.

I'm not saying it's about physical discipline or mental capacity. I said I'd be fine if there was a strategic reason to not do it . What I'm saying is that in a game about strategy why is there a mechanic that if not done does not assist in any winning strategy.

Look at every other move in the game. Assuming successful execution: there are good times to attack and good times to not attack; there are good times to defend and good times to not defend; there are good times to grab and good times to not grab; there are good times to jump and good times to not jump; there are good times to dodge and good times to not dodge; there are good times to wavedash and good times to not wavedash.

There is never a good time for a successful non-l-canceled landing.

For someone trying to win, the other techniques have reasons for and against them and situations to use them in. L-canceling doesnt have that.

I want strategic depth. Give me a reason to not do it and I'll be happy with l-canceling being in smash 4.

Expanding on what not l-canceling does or giving a successful l-cancel a downside would give more depth to the game because it give players more options to consider for an old scenario.

Too Long didnt read version of this and my last post:

Give non-l-canceled landings a benefit, give l-canceled landings a detriment (decreased damage/knock-back of next attack, etc), or kill the mechanic.

now I'm done. Un watches thread

 

[J1NG]

[sigh] I guess I'm not out yet.

Anyway, I never said no strategic choice. I said no strategic reason. Big difference.

And as a violinist, guitarist, and soon a pianist I can say your example of musicians is poor. We dont add unnecessary movements, we refine spacing and actually lessen movements and get better at timing (examples: new pianists having their hands too far from keys or new violinists trying to use vibratos with everything or their bouncing bows). Yes, there is a level of dexterity (physical movement speed and precision), but unless an extra movement is specifically done for showmanship, it's frowned upon from a professional standpoint. Every movement or choice not to move has a perfect time and place in high level musicianship; l-canceling does not share that similarity.

I'm not saying it's about physical discipline or mental capacity. I said I'd be fine if there was a strategic reason to not do it . What I'm saying is that in a game about strategy why is there a mechanic that if not done does not assist in any winning strategy.

Look at every other move in the game. Assuming successful execution: there are good times to attack and good times to not attack; there are good times to defend and good times to not defend; there are good times to grab and good times to not grab; there are good times to jump and good times to not jump; there are good times to dodge and good times to not dodge; there are good times to wavedash and good times to not wavedash.

There is never a good time for a successful non-l-canceled landing.

For someone trying to win, the other techniques have reasons for and against them and situations to use them in. L-canceling doesnt have that.

I want strategic depth. Give me a reason to not do it and I'll be happy with l-canceling being in smash 4.

Expanding on what not l-canceling does or giving a successful l-cancel a downside would give more depth to the game because it give players more options to consider for an old scenario.

Too Long didnt read version of this and my last post:

Give non-l-canceled landings a benefit, give l-canceled landings a detriment (decreased damage/knock-back of next attack, etc), or kill the mechanic.

now I'm done. Un watches thread

I wasn't actually rebutting anyone, just making my case based on what I knew about the debate beforehand. For the most part I agree with you, since I was lazy and didn't bother to iron out my post.

 

[mimgrim]

Give non-l-canceled landings a benefit, give l-canceled landings a detriment (decreased damage/knock-back of next attack, etc), or kill the mechanic.

It should be the other way around really, if it comes back.

Do I need to bring the Gears of War 3 analogy up again? .-.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

^This.

This argument is the same as arguing if ice cream is better with sprinkles or without sprinkles.

Clearly better without sprinkles. I have the option to put then on my own.

 

[grizby2]

Just to clear things up. You would then be fine with L-cancel if the game told you about it? If so. Why? What makes the game teaching it to you so special when you have the internet.

I mean there has even been a recent commercial that tells you to check the internet to see if there phone is any good even. Because of all the stuff you can find on there.

yes I would be 100% fine with it if that were the case. but only if they purposely put it in the game with the intention of showing it to you at some point.

This is Smash Bros! You're almost always doing a short hop aerial. L-Cancelling/lower landlag is a HUGE deal.

If you're speeding up something that's already got low landlag, it still could make a world of difference. Just two or three frames can be the difference between being safe on shield hit or not. Or the difference between being able to combo a uair into another uair or not.

I don't think you understand what im getting at. landing lag gets lowered, hit-stun/knockback stays the same. you have to think about what that means for some moves. yes it makes them "better", but does it make it better for the game, or for you?

Eh. Melee's version of L-canceling cuts down the landing lag in half. Link's Dair, even when canceled, will leave you open for a longer period of time than most aerials so it's still balanced. This is why you rarely see people spamming the move at a high level.

well ya, that's why I said they should look at those moves again and re-work them a bit so that they aren't TOO bad.

Spoiler

some moves need to be looked at again because the landing lag or punishment time don't make up for the damage/knockback/hitstun they inflict.

 

[mimgrim]

yes I would be 100% fine with it if that were the case. but only if they purposely put it in the game with the intention of showing it to you at some point.

But WHY?

L-cancel was an intentional mechanic, there is no denying this. But why does the game have to show you? What is so wrong with finding it out on your own or by looking the game up?

That's what I'm trying to ask.

 

[yume_nikki]

I was just lurking, but I decided to make an account just to reply here.

But WHY?

L-cancel was an intentional mechanic, there is no denying this. But why does the game have to show you? What is so wrong with finding it out on your own or by looking the game up?

That's what I'm trying to ask.

Ok, let’s continue with your Gears of War analogy. Let’s say that there isn’t any bar that shows you when you have to press the reload button. Besides, the game doesn’t tell you anything about the mechanic.

Let’s say also that you don’t have to do that every time you reload, but every time you shoot. I don’t know how often do you reload in Gears of War, but I’m quite sure that you l-cancel a lot more in Melee.

Would you be ok with that? Would you say that’s good game design?

Honestly, if I pay 50 $ for a game, I expect at least that it will teach me the basics. And if something it’s fully intentional and you have to do it every time you can, then it’s basic. Well, you could say that there’s internet, but there’s also people who like to discover the game by themselves (and you cannot expect anyone to discover that a 0,1 second trigger press when pressing triggers should be useless has an effect that is incredibly hard to see for those who are not trained). Besides, when Melee came out not having internet was still quite common.


Also, all those comparisons between l-cancel and playing music are pretty bad (I’m a musician too). In fact, the whole evolution of musical instruments can be summarized in one sentence: making them easier to play in order to give the musicians more possibilities. We can play things that baroque musicians could only dream of because modern instruments are way easier to play. That’s the opposite of l-cancel.

 

[mimgrim]

I was just lurking, but I decided to make an account just to reply here.
Ok, let’s continue with your Gears of War analogy. Let’s say that there isn’t any bar that shows you when you have to press the reload button. Besides, the game doesn’t tells you anything about the mechanic.

Let’s say also that you don’t have to do that every time you reload, but every time you shoot. I don’t know how often do you reload in Gears of War, but I’m quite sure that you l-cancel a lot more in Melee.

Would you be ok with that? Would you say that’s good game design?

Oh hey look. you can take things out of context and jump to assumptions! Good for you! Now let's go over why your points are inaccurate.

The first part. Only if it is replaced with another visual so that you know when to reload it, because you can visualize when to L-cancel in Melee and know when to. As for the game not telling me. I would be fine with that. Because if I wanted to get better at the game I would go online and look for tips and tricks and that would be one of the first things I would probably find.

The second part. Assuming at it's finest. You reload A LOT in Gears of War, it might not be quite as much as L-canceling but it is very close, and I can guarantee you that if it was after shot it would be way much more then how L-cancel is done (Do you not understand how shooters work?) and I still wouldn't mind it, But I also wouldn't mind if it got taken away (assuming if after every shot as I actually like active reloading in Gears and would be sad to see it go).

Honestly, if I pay 50 $ for a game, I expect at least that it will teach me the basics. And if something it’s fully intentional and you have to do it every time you can, then it’s basic. Well, you could say that there’s internet, but there’s also people who like to discover the game by themselves (and you cannot expect anyone to discover that a 0,1 second trigger press when pressing triggers should be useless have an effect that is incredibly hard to see for those who are not trained). Besides, when Melee came out not having internet was still quite common.

L-cancel has a 7 frame window to be pressed, meaning you can press it during any of those 7 frames, it isn't that strict for a fighting game. Other then that. All I see from this part of the post is the typical modern gamer wanting their hand held. How about all those wonderful olden games that were made during the time when internet was even more scarce then during Melee were you had to figure out everything for yourself, even where to go (I'm 18 btw before you ask me about my age).

EDIT - fixed an error where I got Z-cancel frames from 64 mixed up with L-cancel from Melee.

 

[yume_nikki]

The first part. Only if it is replaced with another visual so that you know when to reload it, because you can visualize when to L-cancel in Melee and know when to. As for the game not telling me. I would be fine with that. Because if I wanted to get better at the game I would go online and look for tips and tricks and that would be one of the first things I would probably find.

The visual cue of l-cancel tells you when you have to perform it, but only if you already know that it exists. If you don’t know about it, it’s impossible to think “hey, I’m about to land when finishing an aerial, better press the shield trigger during a few frames and see if something happens”. Timing bars, like the active reload one, are in lots of games, and they don’t appear without reason. They tell you “you have to press a button with the right timing, and you will get some kind of bonus”.


¿Have you ever played Wario Ware? It’s about short minigames that last 5 seconds, the main point of the game is guessing what you have to do in such a small amount of time. There are many minigames that consist of stopping a timing bar, and I’ve seen many casual players guessing what they had to do the first time. So I think that with a cue like that any player is very likely to guess what active reload is in a short time.


However, pressing the button related to defense/dodging when finishing an aerial it’s something that only happens in Smash Bros, as far as I know. In any other game, when you land after an aerial action you don’t get any kind of reward by defending/dodging just during a few frames. So no new Smash Bros player would think by her/himself to l-cancel.

The second part. Assuming at it's finest. You reload A LOT in Gears of War, it might not be quite as much as L-canceling but it is very close, and I can guarantee you that if it was after shot it would be way much more then how L-cancel is done (Do you not understand how shooters work?) and I still wouldn't mind it, But I also wouldn't mind if it got taken away (assuming if after every shot as I actually like active reloading in Gears and would be sad to see it go).

I’m not very fond of shooters (I have only played Time Splitters and CS a bit, at a casual level), but I think there’s a mechanic that involves doing extra inputs every time you shoot with a certain weapon in Halo 2:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Double_fire

Anyway, when I made the example I wasn’t thinking about automatic weapons, since it would be impossible, but rifles, shotguns and things like that. You already have to do an input every time you shoot, so doing another one is feasible (and I think I understand how shooters work, if that’s the point).

L-cancel has an 11 frame window to be pressed, it isn't that strict for a fighting game.

I’m not talking about the input being hard (certainly, it’s dead easy compared to SFIV combo linking standards), but about being impossible to guess. 11 frames is a timing that can be achieved by anyone by practicing a little (7 frames in Melee is harder but still completely possible).

However, 11 frames it’s too short to think about doing it consistently: you only can rely on muscular memory. Therefore nobody would discover l-cancel by thinking, for example “I’m rolling as soon as I can after doing this aerial… wait, I’d better not roll, I’m jumping again. Hey, I’ve jumped a bit sooner”, since in 11 frames there’s no human way to do that (and seeing that rolling/shielding happens sooner is really, really hard. Even with extreme cases like bowser aerials or link’s dair, people who are learning l-cancel can’t tell always if they have missed the cancel or not).

Then, the only way to find it out is to do illogical random quick inputs when they should have no effect, which is something that usually only beta testers do. (Also in Smash 64 and Melee that’s even more pointless because there’s no buffer).


If you like to find out everything by yourself, or doing research on the internet, that’s fine, really. I’m only saying that, from a developer point of view, it’s ridiculous to keep l-cancel completely hidden since it’s nearly impossible to find it out for a player, and is essential if you want to improve your game.

I still don’t know anyone that claims to have discovered l-cancel without further information, and everybody in this thread as far as I have seen assumes that, in order to learn it, you have to do it from an external source. It’s not like an SF combo that you learn when you see that some attacks chain better than others.

Oh hey look. you can take things out of context and jump to assumptions! Good for you! Now let's go over why your points are inaccurate […]


Other then that. All I see from this part of the post is the typical modern gamer wanting their hand held. How about all those wonderful olden games that were made during the time when internet was even more scarce then during Melee were you had to figure out everything for yourself, even where to go (I'm 18 btw before you ask me about my age).


EDIT - fixed an error where I got Z-cancel frames from 64 mixed up with L-cancel from Melee.

Talking about making assumptions. This is my first post, I only asked you if you thought that having l-cancel completely hidden was really a good idea with an example, since I don’t know anybody that says, for example, that the command lists that most of traditional fighters have are bad. At least from my point of view, providing the player with enough knowledge to understand the basic mechanics and achieving a decent level by his/her own it's a good thing (in this sense, the white flash in project M is a huge improvement). It's not about having everything done, it's about knowing the rules before playing.
And about thehe second part of my post, it wasn’t directed to you. Anyway, I’m pretty sure I assumed nothing about who and what kind of gamer you were, and which age you had.

And seriously, I don’t care. If you said you were 12, your points wouldn't be less valid, and if you said you were 35, they wouldn’t be better. I posted just to talk about game design, and I have absolutely nothing personal against you nor anyone in this forum (lol, I don’t even know anyone). The only thing I can say is that I apologize if my posts seem a bit rude (though I don’t think so), since English is not my mother tongue.

(Edits for correcting some errors.)

 

[mimgrim]

The visual cue of l-cancel tells you when you have to perform it, but only if you already know that it exists. If you don’t know about it, it’s impossible to think “hey, I’m about to land when finishing an aerial, better press the shield trigger during a few frames and see if something happens”. Timing bars, like the active reload one, are in lots of games, and they don’t appear without reason. They tell you “you have to press a button with the right timing, and you will get some kind of bonus”.

You asked if I would be fine if the bar was removed. I said only if it is replaced with another visual so that you know when to do it, just like with L-cancel. If you don;t know about it before hand and want to get better at the game I still wouldn't mind. It's basically a reward for people who want to get better at the game and go out of their way to learn tips and tricks.

However, pressing the button related to defense/dodging when finishing an aerial it’s something that only happens in Smash Bros, as far as I know. In any other game, when you land after an aerial action you don’t get any kind of reward by defending/dodging just during a few frames. So no new Smash Bros player would think by her/himself to l-cancel.

And what exactly is wrong with that?

I’m not very fond of shooters (I have only played Time Splitters and CS a bit, at a casual level), but I think there’s a mechanic that involves doing extra inputs every time you shoot with a certain weapon in Halo 2:

http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Double_fire

That's a glitch that was not meant to be in the game in anyway and is tied to a single weapon. Not a good example at all when we are talking about intentional mechanics that are universal.

Anyway, when I made the example I wasn’t thinking about automatic weapons, since it would be impossible, but rifles, shotguns and things like that. You already have to do an input every time you shoot, so doing another one is feasible (and I think I understand how shooters work, if that’s the point).

And I still wouldn't mind if that happened.

I’m not talking about the input being hard (certainly, it’s dead easy compared to SFIV combo linking standards), but about being impossible to guess. 11 frames is a timing that can be achieved by anyone by practicing a little (7 frames in Melee is harder but still completely possible).

I was referring to your exaggeration of 0.1 seconds.

However, 11 frames it’s too short to think about doing it consistently: you only can rely on muscular memory. Therefore nobody would discover l-cancel by thinking, for example “I’m rolling as soon as I can after doing this aerial… wait, I’d better not roll, I’m jumping again. Hey, I’ve jumped a bit sooner”, since in 11 frames there’s no human way to do that (and seeing that rolling/shielding happens sooner is really, really hard. Even with extreme cases like bowser aerials or link’s dair, people who are learning l-cancel can’t tell always if they have missed the cancel or not).

Fun fact about me; I still have to think of doing it consciously and can't do it solely on muscle memory. I have to be thinking about L-cancel to be able to preform it. And when I'm thinking about it I always preform it. When I stop thinking about it I am unable to.

I, once again, think you are exaggerating on the thought process. Muscle memory means being about to do something without conscious thought. I'm not able to think like the way you exaggerated. But I still need to have L-cancel in my conscious thought process to be able to do it still.

Then, the only way to find it out is to do illogical random quick inputs when they should have no effect, which is something that usually only beta testers do. (Also in Smash 64 and Melee that’s even more pointless because there’s no buffer).

I still don’t know anyone that claims to have discovered l-cancel without further information, and everybody in this thread as far as I have seen assumes that, in order to learn it, you have to do it from an external source. It’s not like an SF combo that you learn when you see that some attacks chain better than others.

From what I know of SF the combos the game gives you aren't optimal and it is much better to use cancels, links, chains for the game. Do the games explain what those 3 things are?

Talking about making assumptions. This is my first post, I only asked you if you thought that having l-cancel completely hidden was really a good idea with an example, since I don’t know anybody that says, for example, that the command lists that most of traditional fighters have are bad. At least from my point of view, providing the player with enough knowledge to understand the basic mechanics and achieving a decent level by his/her own it's a good thing (in this sense, the white flash in project M is a huge improvement). It's not about having everything done, it's about knowing the rules before playing.

The thing about L-cancel is that it isn't even a must have for competitive play until you get into high-level play. Before then the fundamentals are much more important. I don;t see what is wrong with having stuff not explained in a game.

And seriously, I don’t care. Just by saying that you are 12, your points aren't less valid, and if you say you're 35, they wouldn’t be better.

The age thing was more of a security device because of how I said back to the olden times of gaming and the like where the games told you absolutely nothing on what to do compared to now where they hold your hand step by step and how most modern gamers are spoiled on it.

 

[smashbro29]

This discussion is pointless. Both sides are too stubborn to be convinced by the other and there is absolutely no way of objectively determining if l-cancelling is good or bad. If there's one thing this thread shows, it's that it's just a matter of preference.

I have yet to see a good reason why L-cancelling is beneficial beyond adding this so called tech skill and making shield pressure a little less braindead.

 

[otter]

On a broader scale I think some technical barrier is important in a fighting game. The mix of decision making and execution is what makes the genre great. There are far better examples of pure decision making games to play that Smash can never compete with.

 

[J1NG]

On a broader scale I think some technical barrier is important in a fighting game. The mix of decision making and execution is what makes the genre great. There are far better examples of pure decision making games to play that Smash can never compete with.

This.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

On a broader scale I think some technical barrier is important in a fighting game. The mix of decision making and execution is what makes the genre great. There are far better examples of pure decision making games to play that Smash can never compete with.

Tech barriers are important when a game is being played at competitive levels. But when a tech barrier is there solely for being a tech barrier, it becomes bad design.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Tech barriers are important when a game is being played at competitive levels. But when a tech barrier is there solely for being a tech barrier, it becomes bad design.

That's every tech barrier by design. Everything could easily be made easier. Auto-combos(Brawl partially had this. Just hold A till you hit someone, or the severe ease of Dancing Blade...), easier recoveries via multi-jumps, etc. Doesn't mean they should be super easy. Making each of these require a bit of practice to get right only further makes the game a better fighter.

It also doesn't hold any real water at this point. It's just an excuse. Never mind the "on principle" reasons really don't prove your point very well. There's no morals to be had here. It's a preference.

We've said it before; We can simply have the option for both, mapped to a name. I find L-Cancelling an excellent tech barrier that isn't severely hard, and just enough to help you get better at the game without being too easy or too difficult. It takes some practice, but helps your timing, preparing you for harder stuff. It eases you into really difficult stuff, which, to be honest, I think makes it excellent design by that alone. Not all do, which is fine.

I actually find it better for the game due to the fact that screwing it up can hurt you. But only when you want to actual L-Cancel. People say you never want to? Incorrect. Not doing it can also easily lure someone into a false sense of security by making them think you're playing badly. Give them a few opportunities to easily attack and they'll start being reckless. Then you suddenly start playing better and make them panic. Does it work all the time? No. But it does have a use beyond "always using it", and it's all about mind games. People forget these sometimes, as they're a pretty major key to winning, tricking others. L-Cancelling is really the only tech other than Fighter Stance(Pressing Shield to get you back onto your feet when you're struck into the ground. I forget the other term for it. I'm pretty sure Ukemi is something different) you can use to achieve this from what I've found.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

You know, I love how people are coming up with suggestions to make L-cancel at least more accessible as a concession for the competitive crowd, and everyone keeps responding with what seems to translate to, "I had to work my ass off to become this good and I don't want anyone who hasn't put in as much practice as me to be as good as me." Never mind that this will increase the number of people who can be considered 'competitive,' <sarcasm>we can't have anything easier, not in MY Smash!</sarcasm> If you people value difficulty and "tech barriers' so much, why aren't you playing Guilty Gear or BlazBlue, or any other game with split second timing, comlex controls and little to no help for anyone who is new to the genre?

 

[Ulevo]

You know, I love how people are coming up with suggestions to make L-cancel at least more accessible as a concession for the competitive crowd, and everyone keeps responding with what seems to translate to, "I had to work my *** off to become this good and I don't want anyone who hasn't put in as much practice as me to be as good as me." Never mind that this will increase the number of people who can be considered 'competitive,' <sarcasm>we can't have anything easier, not in MY Smash!</sarcasm> If you people value difficulty and "tech barriers' so much, why aren't you playing Guilty Gear or BlazBlue, or any other game with split second timing, comlex controls and little to no help for anyone who is new to the genre?

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, I'll simply just speak for how I feel on this issue. I don't think of this as a matter of what is and isn't fair in respect to what I've had to do to become as good as I am currently at Melee. I don't mind what others do in order to reach their potential. The problem I have is that people use what seems like a resentment towards self-betterment, passion, and practice as a means to justify changing the game and steering it away from what players like me and others enjoy. While I obviously disagree with people on this, the salt in the wound is when people use really bad arguments to justify their logic. i.e. Tech barriers don't belong in a Smash game, which is a highly subjective, opinionated debate based on designer intent, not facts.

 

[smashbro29]

On a broader scale I think some technical barrier is important in a fighting game. The mix of decision making and execution is what makes the genre great. There are far better examples of pure decision making games to play that Smash can never compete with.

See, in fighters the tech skill is usually to do something. A combo is difficult because every input does an attack or something. In no other game do you need to hit a button upon landing every time you're doing an attack. It becomes something you quickly forget about if you're serious (even though you're seriously increasing your chances of getting hand cramps or worse), annoying and in the way if you're middle of the road and if you're casual the game may feel slow because the game was tuned for this mechanic.

 

[mimgrim]

You know, I love how people are coming up with suggestions to make L-cancel at least more accessible as a concession for the competitive crowd, and everyone keeps responding with what seems to translate to, "I had to work my *** off to become this good and I don't want anyone who hasn't put in as much practice as me to be as good as me." Never mind that this will increase the number of people who can be considered 'competitive,' <sarcasm>we can't have anything easier, not in MY Smash!</sarcasm> If you people value difficulty and "tech barriers' so much, why aren't you playing Guilty Gear or BlazBlue, or any other game with split second timing, comlex controls and little to no help for anyone who is new to the genre?

I just want to know why L-cancel being explained by the game makes it any better to people. I can't wrap my ahead at how that makes it better when it is still the same thing. It just doesn;t make sense to me. .-.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I just want to know why L-cancel being explained by the game makes it any better to people. I can't wrap my ahead at how that makes it better when it is still the same thing. It just doesn;t make sense to me. .-.

Let me answer your question with another question: Why would L-cancel being explained by the game be a bad thing? Besides more people knowing about it? Besides people not having to go on forums like this, wade through arguments and tripe just to find out about it? For sake of argument, lets say they bring back L-cancel. What harm is there in letting the game simply tell people about it? Hell, look at BlazBlue; Their training mode shows just about every (non-player invented) advanced technique the game has to off right off the bad, so everyone is playing on an even playing field right off that bat, letting the players practice it without having to find out about it online. Again, what harm is there?

I'm not going to speak for anyone else, I'll simply just speak for how I feel on this issue. I don't think of this as a matter of what is and isn't fair in respect to what I've had to do to become as good as I am currently at Melee. I don't mind what others do in order to reach their potential. The problem I have is that people use what seems like a resentment towards self-betterment, passion, and practice as a means to justify changing the game and steering it away from what players like me and others enjoy. While I obviously disagree with people on this, the salt in the wound is when people use really bad arguments to justify their logic. i.e. Tech barriers don't belong in a Smash game, which is a highly subjective, opinionated debate based on designer intent, not facts.

I actually completely agree with you on the fact that whether or not Tech barriers belong in a Smash game IS a highly subjective and opinionated debate. Like many other debates here, this has just become circular and it all boils down to each persons opinion. I can only give my opinions on it, being that Smash is supposed to be a very simple control schemed fighting game (and I mean SIMPLE, as easy as people want to make advanced techniques out to be) but then again, I liked Brawl, so what the hell do I know?

 

[Deleted member]

I think this is a really bad idea, it doesn't add anything of value to fights and only punishes players who live too long. Imagine all the hyped comebacks that would have never happened if this had existed? The only tactical choices it adds to battle is if you want to actually try now or later. Ultimately all this does is dramatically slow down combat and ruin a lot of combos and potential comebacks.

 

[otter]

I actually completely agree with you on the fact that whether or not Tech barriers belong in a Smash game IS a highly subjective and opinionated debate. Like many other debates here, this has just become circular and it all boils down to each persons opinion. I can only give my opinions on it, being that Smash is supposed to be a very simple control schemed fighting game (and I mean SIMPLE, as easy as people want to make advanced techniques out to be) but then again, I liked Brawl, so what the hell do I know?

I never saw it that way. Smash, to me, is a highly technical game masquerading as a simple control scheme fighting game. The definition of "easy to play, hard to master", the most coveted description of a video game. Not that either of us are "right".

 

[J1NG]

Tech barriers are important when a game is being played at competitive levels. But when a tech barrier is there solely for being a tech barrier, it becomes bad design.

Yeah it is. It must be some kind of miracle that the technique caught on all the same, right?

 

[mimgrim]

Let me answer your question with another question: Why would L-cancel being explained by the game be a bad thing? Besides more people knowing about it? Besides people not having to go on forums like this, wade through arguments and tripe just to find out about it? For sake of argument, lets say they bring back L-cancel. What harm is there in letting the game simply tell people about it? Hell, look at BlazBlue; Their training mode shows just about every (non-player invented) advanced technique the game has to off right off the bad, so everyone is playing on an even playing field right off that bat, letting the players practice it without having to find out about it online. Again, what harm is there?

It isn't. I never said it would be. But how does the game explaining it to you change the mechanic for you? How does it make it any different? It's still the same mechanic. If you were to be fine with the mechanic if it was explained in the game then you should be fine with it not explained in the game. If your not fine with the mechanic unexplained by the game then how can you be fine with it explained by the game when it is still the same mechanic?

I don't get why it matters.

Sure, it would be neat if it happened. But why does it matter? Why doe it change the mechanic from being bad to good when it is still the same mechanic? It doesn't make sense to me.

 

[tarextherex]

It shouldn't and it doesn't feel satisfying at all, the things that make a combo satisfying in smash is landing it thanks to your good spacing and reading the opponent, not pressing an extra button. Auto cancels in Brawl were good because it rewarded players who actually knew stuff about the game/their character to make good baits/punishes. L canceling doesn't do anything good except harming your controller faster so you'll start missing all of your other tech and end up sding whenever you try doing some ledge wavedash trick and then ask for "perfect" controllers a la M2K

 

[Riposte__]

Yes to L-Canceling but not in melee, but S64. Every one sleeps on S64 L-Canceling but it was no joke. S64 L-Canceling removed all lag from attacks and landing with out the melee problem of making some character be head and shoulders above others and there are basically 4 characters that people will main to climb the ranks outside of the few who love a character enough to solely main them.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It isn't. I never said it would be. But how does the game explaining it to you change the mechanic for you? How does it make it any different? It's still the same mechanic. If you were to be fine with the mechanic if it was explained in the game then you should be fine with it not explained in the game. If your not fine with the mechanic unexplained by the game then how can you be fine with it explained by the game when it is still the same mechanic?

I don't get why it matters.

Sure, it would be neat if it happened. But why does it matter? Why doe it change the mechanic from being bad to good when it is still the same mechanic? It doesn't make sense to me.

For me, it won't change, or matter. I honestly think that L-cancelling should be removed, but I'm willing to at least concede the point if we at least make it less of an esoteric thing for those who would care about it. I would rather fighting games be less about who can twist their fingers into gnarled knots to perform complicated split second button presses and more about reading your opponent, using the right move for the right situation and understanding the character itself, not some universal tech that you MUST learn to hope to become competitive.

 

[Dott]

4:22, megaman lands, instant shield and jumps.

Is this a new L-Cancel?

 

[PCHU]

I would rather fighting games be less about who can twist their fingers into gnarled knots to perform complicated split second button presses and more about reading your opponent, using the right move for the right situation and understanding the character itself, not some universal tech that you MUST learn to hope to become competitive.

It's one button.

I mean, if you really don't want to focus so much on l-canceling, there are characters like Sheik and Marth who've got fast aerials with low landing lag.
You've also got Jigglypuff and Kirby.
If we're talking about twisting fingers into gnarled knots, that's some TAS-level Fox/Ness/Peach stuff, and really, Fox's basic drillshine pressure can be learned in a matter of days -- and keep in mind that this is only one way to play these characters.
You can develop your own playstyle that revolves more around getting grabs/zoning/whatever you want, but if you're upset about the difficulty of some of the more effective tech-heavy methods, that seems like you've a bit more of an issue with the character itself and people who chose to learn that stuff (who are not entirely immune to getting shieldgrabbed).

Tech alone (namely l-canceling) won't win you matches; I used to be a purely tech-focused Fox main and I got wrecked by a Mewtwo, a Samus, and a Kirby.
I've played a bunch of matches against tech-heavy Fox/Falco players that didn't know how to fight; I hardly had to do more than a few uthrows/utilts in a ditto.
Proper spacing is still important, reading your opponent is still important, and, of course, execution is important.
Tech ain't absolutely necessary (Jigglypuff), but it can help a lot (Fox), and it's not entirely impossible to beat someone who uses the existing techs (Jigglypuff vs Fox).

Now, if we go into autocancels, that's fine and dandy, but the fact is that you still have to learn how to use your character; whether or not you choose to use the full (humanly possible) potential of that character is up to you.

 

[Riposte__]

4:22, megaman lands, instant shield and jumps.

Is this a new L-Cancel?

I had tried really hard to forget that video existed.
Watching it fully muted, many times at normal speed and slower and rewinding it over and over again it confirms my worst fears that this inst the game the community wants. Even though the game is faster now, even little moves like u tilts and dash attacks send the enemy flying out of combo range at very low percents making comboing near-impossible, and it doesn't look like there is hit stun ether but it doesn't look like there are multiple air doges like in brawl (or if there are, for what ever reason they didn't use them) We''ll have to wait till e3 to see if these predictions (and that's all they are) are true.

 

[D-idara]

This.

Is wrong.

I had tried really hard to forget that video existed.
Watching it fully muted, many times at normal speed and slower and rewinding it over and over again it confirms my worst fears that this inst the game the community wants. Even though the game is faster now, even little moves like u tilts and dash attacks send the enemy flying out of combo range at very low percents making comboing near-impossible, and it doesn't look like there is hit stun ether but it doesn't look like there are multiple air doges like in brawl (or if there are, for what ever reason they didn't use them) We''ll have to wait till e3 to see if these predictions (and that's all they are) are true.

No.