L-Canceling

[Deleted member 245254]

I don't mind L-Cancelling, but I would be worried if it was in because of the 3DS version. The OG 3DS has pretty frail shoulder buttons so tapping the L button so often could kill it off quickly. That would be my only real concern though. I don't think L-Cancelling is that hard to learn.

1) Sonic and All-Stars Racing: Transformed doesn't have a blue shell-type item. Instead, it has an item, the Swarm, that can either be thrown backward or sent forward in front of 1st. The difference between this and the blue shell is that good players can avoid the Swarm very consistently. So what it does is essentially determine if the person in 1st is skilled enough to deserve 1st. This is very different from the blue shell, which can only be avoided if 1st has a specific item (or, in MKDS, through some other MT-related shenanigans but that's super advanced, super precise stuff). Furthermore, the Swarm affects everybody who's directly behind 1st, and not just 1st, so that's another huge difference.

2) They nerfed the Blue Shell hard in MK8. Also, all the "nerfs" 1st got also apply to 2nd - like, 1st can get the coin item and be left defenseless but so can 2nd, for example, and 2nd still has to worry about 3rd getting triple red shells. 1st also has a small chance of getting an item that can destroy, like, everything, including the blue shell. Finally, the fastest bike combos in the game have about half of the maximum possible acceleration, which reduces the impact of getting hit for bike users. These are the good bikes, too, the sport bikes.

EDIT: And 1st place's "nerfs" were because the blue shell hit 1st more often than 2nd place's items. That is stupid on principle.

Honestly I hate that MK still gets more attention than SASR just because it's Mario Kart, because SASR is essentially what MK should be.

 

[LancerStaff]

It proves you're playing Smash Bros. for all the wrong reasons, and this is exactly what the true audience wants.

See what I did there? You see how stupid that sounds?

There is no true audience, no real purpose. It's a game, it caters to a lot of people, some people enjoy it casually, and some would like to enjoy it competitively. Mario Kart has the potential for both with some very minor tweaks, just like Smash does, and I think it is a waste to not cater to both parties.



Your scope is narrow?



To fix the items, you'd have to change Blue Shell so it hits every single player without fail on the track ahead of the launcher, and modify Lightning so it gives warning. That's basically it. It would make the game much better competitively, and I highy doubt the casuals will come crying to Nintendo about how their favourite racer is ruined since they won't even know how to properly assess the change to begin with.

Telling me modifications like that are going to alienate a player base is asinine.



You're not even bothering to use your brain to think of the difference. If a player in 12th fires of a Bullet Bill, it helps him get in 9th, 8th, maybe 7th place or higher, all depending on how far away he is. It hurts the other players, but as a means to get the 12th player ahead. If a player in 12th fires off a Blue Shell, he stays in 12th, has to wait for another, more useful item, and only gets to see the top 2-3 racers shuffle around in placement. It doesn't them at all.

You're blind if you can't see the difference.



I'm not going to grace this with a response since it's wasted on you.



I don't care to humor you.

It's stupid because it's wrong. I admitted that L-canceling is a divided issue. Making Mario Kart competitive doesn't work.

Your view is highly distorted.

People will still whine over Lightning and Blue Shells. No doubt you will too, since it "isn't competitive." We can't tell if you're just saying this in attempt to make a point. Mario Kart outright can't support anything remotely competitive because of random items.

There's a minor difference. Hey look, who cares? 1st is still arbitrarily hurt. That's your problem with Mario Kart, not mine.

You-

-Lose.

I don't mind L-Cancelling, but I would be worried if it was in because of the 3DS version. The OG 3DS has pretty frail shoulder buttons so tapping the L button so often could kill it off quickly. That would be my only real concern though. I don't think L-Cancelling is that hard to learn.

1) Sonic and All-Stars Racing: Transformed doesn't have a blue shell-type item. Instead, it has an item, the Swarm, that can either be thrown backward or sent forward in front of 1st. The difference between this and the blue shell is that good players can avoid the Swarm very consistently. So what it does is essentially determine if the person in 1st is skilled enough to deserve 1st. This is very different from the blue shell, which can only be avoided if 1st has a specific item (or, in MKDS, through some other MT-related shenanigans but that's super advanced, super precise stuff). Furthermore, the Swarm affects everybody who's directly behind 1st, and not just 1st, so that's another huge difference.

2) They nerfed the Blue Shell hard in MK8. Also, all the "nerfs" 1st got also apply to 2nd - like, 1st can get the coin item and be left defenseless but so can 2nd, for example, and 2nd still has to worry about 3rd getting triple red shells. 1st also has a small chance of getting an item that can destroy, like, everything, including the blue shell. Finally, the fastest bike combos in the game have about half of the maximum possible acceleration, which reduces the impact of getting hit for bike users. These are the good bikes, too, the sport bikes.

1) It's not as major as the Blue Shell, but it requires a reaction from first, correct? And I'd assume it's much easier to knock down first in Transformed, right?

2) A rare item that's basically impossible to get into first isn't much of a nerf, unless you're talking about how you no longer drop your items when hit, but that's from 7. And 1st is definitely hit hardest by the changes in items.

 

[StriCNYN3]

Making Mario Kart competitive doesn't work.

It can and already does work because the players that are looking for more make it work. There's already a scene for competitive Mario Kart as there are clans and people entering tourneys out there, so I don't know what you mean by that. Despite the game having some bad game design punishing winning players and rewarding mediocrity, there are people out there willing to look past those flaws and take the game seriously because there is potential in there.

And Mario Kart "not being competitive" is not a valid excuse for blatantly flawed game design. It's as simple as that. This isn't just a concern for multiplayer, but for single player as well. I can't stress how stupid rubber banding AI with blue shell galore can get when all you're simply doing is playing the game to unlock characters. It's just not fair in any aspect you try to spin on it

Mario Kart outright can't support anything remotely competitive because of random items.

But now with Mario kart 8, you can toggle any specific item you want off or on the racing tracks, so there's that

 

[Ulevo]

You can't seem to imbibe that your perception is basically hypocritical. If you can come to terms with the arguments presented for l-cancel, you should be capable of no less on the subject of blue shell.

Maybe I'm choosing to selectively ignore an individual, and not a presented argument.

You've cited l-cancel of being similarly not important to winning, despite its usefulness, and yet still express that it takes away depth to get rid of a technique that is not so much a technique but a necessitated annoyance in combat. I can basically say removing the blue shell removes depth from Mario Kart to complete the cycle if you wish, to make it obvious.

L-Cancelling is necessary in order to win if you're on equal skill level with your opponent. I dare you to quote me saying differently. There's a distinct difference between the two. Again, you're strawmanning me in these posts by bringing it up again when I've already left it behind. Irregardless, the game wouldn't be deeper with or without the Blue Shell because there is no associated choice with the Blue Shell, much in the same way that there is no associated choice with L-Cancelling. L-Cancelling doesn't make the game deeper, because it is something you're always required to do. The Blue Shell on the same token is always something the person who obtains it is going to use because it isn't going to help them improve their placement to a noticeable degree, and they'll want to use it so they can obtain a useful item that will.

You fail to grasp that I have a problem with the Blue Shell from a design perspective in terms of a lack of counterplay and it's intended use as an anti-competitive mechanic, not something that is a necessity (it's not) or something that helps the losing player (it doesn't.)

The blue shell is basically that, a necessitated annoyance in its actual design, and so that's a worthless mechanic worth being removed?

I'm not the one arguing this, but if you truly believe that, then I think you're basically flat out wrong. I'm not going to repeat myself as to why, because I just did repeatedly to LancerStaff. There's nothing necessary about the Blue Shell. It isn't necessary to keep the game casually friendly, and it just helps to avoid Mario Kart from seeing proper competitive exposure, which would be nice to have.

Then you've lost the argument. I honestly find it baffling that you cannot see the blatant contradiction.

You win arguments by following points of rationale until one side fails to reach the next logical juncture in their conclusions because of what's been presented on the opposing parties side, not because the opposing side is ignoring you spewing nonsense he's not willing to try and reason with.

What I am being hypocritical about is avoiding further elaboration as to why Mario Kart can be a competitive game (and why it deserves to be) on the basis that it's completely off topic, and that I'm only replying to quotes that repeatedly keep coming up. So I'm going to drop the subject on that note.

 

[Reila]

I really hope there is no L-cancelling in Smash 4. It is a pointless feature that serves to only complicate the gameplay.

 

[LancerStaff]

It can and already does work because the players that are looking for more make it work. There's already a scene for competitive Mario Kart as there are clans and people entering tourneys out there, so I don't know what you mean by that. Despite the game having some bad game design punishing winning players and rewarding mediocrity, there are people out there willing to look past those flaws and take the game seriously because there is potential in there.

And Mario Kart "not being competitive" is not a valid excuse for blatantly flawed game design. It's as simple as that. This isn't just a concern for multiplayer, but for single player as well. I can't stress how stupid rubber banding AI with blue shell galore can get when all you're simply doing is playing the game to unlock characters. It's just not fair in any aspect you try to spin on it



But now with Mario kart 8, you can toggle any specific item you want off or on the racing tracks, so there's that

Really though, MK wasn't ever supposed to be fair at all, and never will be because of random items. Personally, I think it's pointless taking just a bit of the luck out of the game.

Clans? I never saw them as competitive. Dunno, I always thought it was just for giggles instead of anything serious.

...Well, things have derailed quite a bit, haven't they? We oughta stop with the MK talk, considering this is the L-canceling topic and all. Some place you want to take this?

 

[RODO]

If any of you guys saying that MK can't be competitive are also people who play Brawl competitively then shame on you. I've played Brawl competitively for awhile and it hurts when people tell me that it's not a competitive game etc. I'd never tell someone that what they compete at is not competitive after everything I've gone through. For something to be competitive you only need people to compete, and that's it.

Also, something happened today that was a negative about L-cancelling. I was playing PM and was trying to SHFFL an aerial but I got hit out of it. I still hit the L button on reaction to try and L cancel even though I had been hit, and since I had hit the trigger as I was being sent through the air, I couldn't tech my landing. If I wasn't mindlessly trying to L-cancel then I could have just waited and tech my landing just fine, but I lost the opportunity because I was careless. Just an example of how there CAN be a negative side to it.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

@ RODO Don't get hit

 

[NeonS4]

I played Melee years ago but only by myself as no one liked Nintendo where I lived, and when I was playing I just played to unlock everything so I didn't know about any advanced techniques.
I don't know why Sakurai didn't mention anything about L-Cancel so when I found out about it I thought it was stupid. But making the game faster seems to make it look exciting and fun so I'm all for it. But I'd like auto L-Cancel instead of Manual L cancel (Like Smash Flash 2) as its just there to make the game harder.

But realistically, Sakurai probably won't put any type of L-cancel in the game.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I really think this has gone pretty far off where the talk of L-cancelling has been.

Mostly that, unlikely jumping, wavedashing, shielding etc. When do I choose to say, I don't want to do this? Because 99% of the time, the answer is I need to use this.

I still think it is an archaic tech that really doesn't serve a purpose in decision making, which is a fighting game is an important element.

 

[yahooda]

I think that L-cancelling's main purpose was to allow the game to move more slowly for casual players who don't know how to use it and for it to move quickly for the competitive players who use L-cancels with every landing.

 

[Snakeyes]

Nah. L-canceling contributes much less to the game being faster than stuff like momentum, gravity, running speed, etc...

 

[Riposte__]

Yeah..If there was some hack where you could L-cancel anything there wound't be any fast past combos or anything like that....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLuFpmoKUVQ

 

[Rikana]

It's similar to having tight frame-links in games like Street Fighter. You cannot interrupt a crouching medium kick to a hadouken if you hadouken too late. You must input your hadouken, if your crouching medium kick makes contact, within a certain time frame in order to link them. Why not expand the time frame until the end of the crouching medium kick? It's the same concept as auto L-cancel. It just gives people a sense of accomplishment.

Same with many sports. What's the point of catching the ball in american football? Catching is a barrier that all players need to overcome. Catching in football is a skill that provides no benefits other than guaranteeing that you have the ball (there is never a time where you don't want to catch a thrown football. An unsuccessful catch, a thumble, can lead to the opponents taking advantage of the situation); just like how a successful l-cancel only guarantees that you get half the landing lag.

And I find the comment about Mario Kart not being competitive hilarious. Even Nintendo implied that there's a competitive side to it the moment they put a ranking system in the game. It can be played competitively no matter how you look at it, even with random items.

As much as l-canceling doesn't provide much benefit to the game itself; it sets a standard for players to get into the competitive realm of smash. It makes the game more "valuable" in a sense where you need to invest time into a game in order to get better; it provides the player with a goal to overcome. You can argue about all the other techniques all you want, but giving that room of error makes anything more interesting. It's the reason why we find any risk-related situation so entertaining. There's always a risk involved when l-canceling; its a skill that even the best players will mess up (similar to how football players will miss catching the ball or street fighter players accidentally dropping links).

It would be *amazing* if Smash4 had a toggle option for l-canceling and airdodging (melee's or brawl's for the use of wavedashing). I would completely fall in love with Smash4. I would have both lcanceling and melee airdodging on. This would be the best of both worlds.. but also provide TOs an issue where they have to decide which crowd to please.

I think that L-cancelling's main purpose was to allow the game to move more slowly for casual players who don't know how to use it and for it to move quickly for the competitive players who use L-cancels with every landing.

Lcanceling is a skill that was intentionally put in the game. It was even brought up in a Nintendo magazine since smash64.

 

[Garquille14]

I used to say L-Canceling should just be removed and replaced with less lag
I've been learning PM lately and find the extra technicality of L-canceling to feel satisfying

It's like using manual gears in racing game arcade cabinets. Feels good man.

 

[LiteralGrill]

It would be *amazing* if Smash4 had a toggle option for l-canceling and airdodging (melee's or brawl's for the use of wavedashing). I would completely fall in love with Smash4. I would have both lcanceling and melee airdodging on. This would be the best of both worlds.. but also provide TOs an issue where they have to decide which crowd to please.

Amazing until the competitive community had to decide which one to toggle for events. It'd probably be a bad enough argument that it could kill our scene forever.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Amazing until the competitive community had to decide which one to toggle for events. It'd probably be a bad enough argument that it could kill our scene forever.

Despite it being easy to select it via your own Username. Like custom controls. That solves that issue entirely. People can have it on or off, based upon their own preference.

 

[SoaringDive]

Despite it being easy to select it via your own Username. Like custom controls. That solves that issue entirely. People can have it on or off, based upon their own preference.

Can you imagine the amount of playtesting and bug squashing that would take?

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

Can you imagine the amount of playtesting and bug squashing that would take?

Yes

Can you?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Can you imagine the amount of playtesting and bug squashing that would take?

You mean almost none?

Yeah, it takes almost nothing for people to just play their own way. It's whatever they're most comfortable with. This isn't something that severely affects gameplay like, say, Wavedashing. It's just a small thing a person can choose to practice or not practice. Whichever works for them.

The idea of having it an option tied to your username means it only affects a specific player. Having it as an option to turn on/off to affect everybody is a little different.

 

[Rikana]

I did mean to have it affect everyone but having it tied to username is even better.

 

[mimgrim]

My problem with the toggle system is that it would create, one way or another, people going for one or option over the other.

You either make it to where no L-cancel has regular lag with L-cancel speeding up the lag or you make it to where everyone toggles it on, which brings up the question of; why even bother with it in the first place and not just leave it how it was in Melee?

Or you make regular landing lag as fast as L-canceling when L-cancel gets toggled off, which then makes it to where; why would people who's ultimate goal is to win keep it on when they can instead chose to have one less thing to worry about making a mistake about?

I don't see how it actually solves anything. ._.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

It's similar to having tight frame-links in games like Street Fighter. You cannot interrupt a crouching medium kick to a hadouken if you hadouken too late. You must input your hadouken, if your crouching medium kick makes contact, within a certain time frame in order to link them. Why not expand the time frame until the end of the crouching medium kick? It's the same concept as auto L-cancel. It just gives people a sense of accomplishment.

Same with many sports. What's the point of catching the ball in american football? Catching is a barrier that all players need to overcome. Catching in football is a skill that provides no benefits other than guaranteeing that you have the ball (there is never a time where you don't want to catch a thrown football. An unsuccessful catch, a thumble, can lead to the opponents taking advantage of the situation); just like how a successful l-cancel only guarantees that you get half the landing lag.

Oh, so L-cancelling is as important as catching a ball in Football? I thought people would still be beaten without it? Is L-cancelling super important or not? I really hate this generalization argument that people use for L-cancelling. It's super-uber-duper important when it needs to be, but it's also not necessary to win? Which is it people?

Once again, I must ask, is easier ALWAYS worse?

I say remove L-cancelling entirely. I got enough on my plate if Wavedashing or Fartshining or DashSquareDancing or what-have-you is back to have to worry about an additional button to press amidst the storm of pretzeling my fingers over a Gamecube controller to have a remote chance of playing in any tournament.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Lcanceling is a skill that was intentionally put in the game. It was even brought up in a Nintendo magazine since smash64.

Bit of a strawman, don't you think?

Nobody is saying that l-cancelling is a mistake or was put in the game by mistake. We're saying it's a dumb mechanic cuz opinions. You're saying it's a great mechanic cuz opinions.

Obviously we will all never be able to agree on this, but if l-cancelling, is not in Smash 4 (my guess is that it won't be, but I'm open to the possibility), don't complain because there are a laundry list of good reasons why it shouldn't return.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Despite it being easy to select it via your own Username. Like custom controls. That solves that issue entirely. People can have it on or off, based upon their own preference.

No, there would be no choice but to go wavedash/l-cancel or else you'd lose to the superior speed and mobility. It'd have to be either one or the other for events, and this topic is divisive enough that you can imagine how it'd go. In PSASBr we COULD TURN ALL THE HAZARDS OFF and even then people debated on if we should and if we should just leave them on certain stages and all kinds of things. It's never that simple.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

No, there would be no choice but to go wavedash/l-cancel or else you'd lose to the superior speed and mobility. It'd have to be either one or the other for events, and this topic is divisive enough that you can imagine how it'd go. In PSASBr we COULD TURN ALL THE HAZARDS OFF and even then people debated on if we should and if we should just leave them on certain stages and all kinds of things. It's never that simple.

That's hardly analogous at all.

If a person chooses manual they'll L-Cancel whenever they wish to(as RODO noted, there was a moment where L-Cancelling hurt him, so it's not always the best move period), or they'll choose automatic and not have to worry about it. That's their choice.

There is no testing needed. Or barely any. What's there to test? Sorry, but you're not making any sense here. The option to have it set lets everyone do it how they want. And yes, it's that simple. This is a character thing, not a course thing. Some courses don't need hazards off, some do. That's why that example(as entirely different from characters and their mobility is) doesn't really give us a good analogy to a character specific thing, especially one that's usable by all characters and affects them in a similar manner, but not because of a random hazard, but due to player control.

 

[LiteralGrill]

That's hardly analogous at all.

If a person chooses manual they'll L-Cancel whenever they wish to(as RODO noted, there was a moment where L-Cancelling hurt him, so it's not always the best move period), or they'll choose automatic and not have to worry about it. That's their choice.

There is no testing needed. Or barely any. What's there to test? Sorry, but you're not making any sense here. The option to have it set lets everyone do it how they want. And yes, it's that simple. This is a character thing, not a course thing. Some courses don't need hazards off, some do. That's why that example(as entirely different from characters and their mobility is) doesn't really give us a good analogy to a character specific thing, especially one that's usable by all characters and affects them in a similar manner, but not because of a random hazard, but due to player control.

So what do you do when the l-canceling wavedashing player has way more speed then the person who doesn't choose that option? There isn't actually an option, it's choose or lose. There is no way someone with Brawl air dodge can combat that added speed and mobility, they'd be crushed. You'd have to pick l-canel/wavedash or lose, there is no real choice.

The reason I drew this comparison was just to show that something that looks straightforward and easy can sometimes not be the case at all. Many people ask for Sakurai to do what PSASBR did with hazards without realizing how horrible it could actually be. It's just worth noting.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

So what do you do when the l-canceling wavedashing player has way more speed then the person who doesn't choose that option? There isn't actually an option, it's choose or lose. There is no way someone with Brawl air dodge can combat that added speed and mobility, they'd be crushed. You'd have to pick l-canel/wavedash or lose, there is no real choice.

Nope. You can put on the automatic version. And what Wavedashing? It's not comparable to L-Cancelling either. Some characters can barely Wavedash well as is. It's not that great of an analogy as is. Many don't L-Cancel and yet still win just fine. It's completely optional and always was. You're overstating how much it gives you.

The reason I drew this comparison was just to show that something that looks straightforward and easy can sometimes not be the case at all. Many people ask for Sakurai to do what PSASBR did with hazards without realizing how horrible it could actually be. It's just worth noting.

It wasn't worth noting at all. Never mind it was a very poor analogy as is.

I'm not sure you even get the difference here; A character driven thing is nothing like a purely random thing. A person who has on automatic L-Cancelling is hardly any different from someone who has the manual version overall. Some just would rather do it themselves and get the exact boost when they want it, while some don't care and don't wish to concentrate on it. Really, the stage hazards are more comparable to Tripping instead

I'm not seriously sure how having the ability to set it based upon your username seriously has a giant effect on battle. All it does is makes it so the player has different priorities of what techs to use and nothing more. This isn't like tripping, or items, or even stage hazards. Those 3 have extreme effects on battle. L-Cancelling does not. The amount of testing(if any) is beyond minimal. Not every option needs testing at all. That's like seriously choosing which costume to wear at this point. There's barely anything of note to it beyond "not allowed in this stage" and that's even more notable than L-Cancelling's impact.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Nope. You can put on the automatic version.

Then the other isn't even worth having, why risk messing up an l-cancel ever? Play to win man, it'd be making yourself worse to have the possibility of screwing it up when it could be done automatically. If it is truly automatic and happens at the same timing as doing it manually, why would you take the weakness of doing it manually other then to try and prove you are better then people in some elitist way? Still not a great idea.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

That's hardly analogous at all.

If a person chooses manual they'll L-Cancel whenever they wish to(as RODO noted, there was a moment where L-Cancelling hurt him, so it's not always the best move period), or they'll choose automatic and not have to worry about it. That's their choice.

There is no testing needed. Or barely any. What's there to test? Sorry, but you're not making any sense here. The option to have it set lets everyone do it how they want. And yes, it's that simple. This is a character thing, not a course thing. Some courses don't need hazards off, some do. That's why that example(as entirely different from characters and their mobility is) doesn't really give us a good analogy to a character specific thing, especially one that's usable by all characters and affects them in a similar manner, but not because of a random hazard, but due to player control.

Ok then, how about this.

There can be a setting. If you turn it on, then you must do the input for l-cancel in order to execute the maneuver. If the setting is off, then the function happens automatically.

Both camps are happy!

Oh, wait, you'd probably say that was stupid because people would likely just play with it off, which would be my entire point, that people would do without it if they could, despite what you say.

 

[Shaya]

I don't think L cancelling + wave dashing would be that "significantly faster/need it to win" difference. You don't need wave dashing if you have a good dash dance, people still like to wave land for example though, and wave dash OoS is very potent. But if you automatically had half landing lag? A lot of characters wouldn't care. Assuming similar movesets to Brawl, the aerial characters would be at least more dominant than they are now. Sonic aerial to spring errytime? I play a lot of Dedede in Project M, and while waddle dashing is cool, pure "wave dashing" is basically useless, and his jump squat is too slow to effectively wave dash out of shield too. Always being able to fast fall forward air without timing issues and having better opportunity to move my fingers in a way that I can time an immediate dash away, pivot grab or jab on landing? Done! Easy! Things like hitting shields do mess up timings on things, and removing that minor block speeds everything else up. Crazy.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Then the other isn't even worth having, why risk messing up an l-cancel ever? Play to win man, it'd be making yourself worse to have the possibility of screwing it up when it could be done automatically. If it is truly automatic and happens at the same timing as doing it manually, why would you take the weakness of doing it manually other then to try and prove you are better then people in some elitist way? Still not a great idea.

Some don't mind the risk. Think about that for a moment. People are willing to risk it if it helps them get better at the game. I know I am and I have no issues with it.

People have done it before and still don't have a problem with it.

Ok then, how about this.

There can be a setting. If you turn it on, then you must do the input for l-cancel in order to execute the maneuver. If the setting is off, then the function happens automatically.

Both camps are happy!

Oh, wait, you'd probably say that was stupid because people would likely just play with it off, which would be my entire point, that people would do without it if they could, despite what you say.

It's never forced. It's always an option if can do it. You will if you want to. Stop talking as if everyone is forced to do it because that's not true in any possible way.

And the fact I'd(and probably others) would turn it on so I can do it myself? So what if some would rather have automatic. Clearly some have no issues with having Manual as a choice.

What really surprises me is going against the option of letting the player choose which version they want. Everybody is happy when they can do it the want they want to. The fact that some want it back already proves exactly what you said wrong. In reality, I wouldn't mind all Lag Cancelling removed so you had all lag. But that doesn't sound great, now does it? That's literally how I feel about any form of automatic version. I hate the lack of control. But eh. I stand that it being an Option(by Username) is the highest winning one that keeps everyone happy. No ifs, ands, or buts.

 

[Shaya]

What really surprises me is going against the option of letting the player choose which version they want. Everybody is happy when they can do it the want they want to. The fact that some want it back already proves exactly what you said wrong. In reality, I wouldn't mind all Lag Cancelling removed so you had all lag. But that doesn't sound great, now does it? That's literally how I feel about any form of automatic version. I hate the lack of control. But eh. I stand that it being an Option(by Username) is the highest winning one that keeps everyone happy. No ifs, ands, or buts.

If it was automatic, even if it was a choice, no competitive player would keep it there. If there was absolutely no extra benefit of doing it, then every melee player you know and love who ends up playing smash 4 won't use it. I like the analogy of an automatic vs manual car, although a manual car uses less fuel and has more control to it, whilst an automatic vs manual L cancelling would give no benefit to the manuals (in your "idea"). If the difference was Manual gives you a 50% cancel while an automatic gave you 40%, then people would choose it, for sure.
Otherwise, it's self defeating. Have it there would be kinda cool I guess. But there are tons of things which are like that.

 

[Deleted member 245254]

Some don't mind the risk. Think about that for a moment. People are willing to risk it if it helps them get better at the game. I know I am and I have no issues with it.

People have done it before and still don't have a problem with it.


It's never forced. It's always an option if can do it. You will if you want to. Stop talking as if everyone is forced to do it because that's not true in any possible way.

And the fact I'd(and probably others) would turn it on so I can do it myself? So what if some would rather have automatic. Clearly some have no issues with having Manual as a choice.

What really surprises me is going against the option of letting the player choose which version they want. Everybody is happy when they can do it the want they want to. The fact that some want it back already proves exactly what you said wrong. In reality, I wouldn't mind all Lag Cancelling removed so you had all lag. But that doesn't sound great, now does it? That's literally how I feel about any form of automatic version. I hate the lack of control. But eh. I stand that it being an Option(by Username) is the highest winning one that keeps everyone happy. No ifs, ands, or buts.

I'm sorry but this just seems like you're grasping for straws.

No serious competitive tournament player in their right mind would seriously agree with you in that they would arbitrarily turn the function on, when they could turn it off and not have to even worry about ever pressing it for the same result.

To be honest, I'm all for that function. Go ahead and add it. Nothing wrong with options, but I think it's a bit silly to deny that utterly pointless-ness of it all. Especially if it's the same result form landed aerials either way, I'll never turn it on so have fun with your manual l-cancels. You'll get no argument from me there.

It's just too bad the likelihood of such a thing happening is zero to none.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I think the reality is this will never happen and I'll leave it at that. Also, this thread is REALLY getting off topic in all honesty.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If it was automatic, even if it was a choice, no competitive player would keep it there. If there was absolutely no extra benefit of doing it, then every melee player you know and love who ends up playing smash 4 won't use it. I like the analogy of an automatic vs manual car, although a manual car uses less fuel and has more control to it, whilst an automatic vs manual L cancelling would give no benefit to the manuals (in your "idea"). If the difference was Manual gives you a 50% cancel while an automatic gave you 40%, then people would choose it, for sure.
Otherwise, it's self defeating. Have it there would be kinda cool I guess. But there are tons of things which are like that.

The only thing stopping me from playing completely competitive(I still consider myself one since that's the style I play) is the lack of being able to drive places.

I'd still go manual given the option. And I'm not honestly sure every competitive player would go with automatic either. So it's really not worth saying they would. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. It's also great for the people who get to give into competitive play to practice the tech and get it down pat. Helps open the gate for other kinds of techs, regardless if they turn it back to automatic or not.

Also, I don't drive, so the analogy doesn't help much. Sure, and extra benefit to L-Cancelling is good too. I don't need one, but no complaints here.

 

[Shaya]

Also, this thread is REALLY getting off topic in all honesty.

Well seeing as the original topic was about L cancelling coming back as a "meter" rather than "worth having" over automatic/universal landing lag reductions debate, I'm pretty sure this thread could die. Haven't seen anything new in a long time. The thread has definitely gone off topic by definition. I'm not sure if the argument has really gone anywhere beyond "I like how it feels" vs Design mentalities (easily a biased view, so forgive if I'm seeing things wrong).

The only reason it hasn't been locked thus far is because of the quintessential need for some people to fan the flames of ideological war. Meh. Never been a fan of that.

If you really feel this topic can be extended much further with something new/fresh, than do so soon/now, otherwise I think the plug should get pulled.

 

[Ulevo]

Lock the thread.

 

[SmashChu]

L-Canceling is a dumb mechanic. It's not fun having to press L every time you hit the ground. Adding a cost still makes it tedious. Most people want to have to press a button to compete online. Simpler is better. Removing/reducing landing lag also isn't a good idea. There is a reason characters have landing lag on attacks.

Look at me! I can do L-Cancel, the people who can't do it aren't good, it doesn't serve only to inflate my competitive ego!

Why did this receive a warning? You all need to put your big boy pants on and man up.