L-Canceling

[Second Power]

My question for that is; how would the competitive community treat it? Would they allow players to chose, in which case why turn on L-cancel when the potential to mess up, even if unlikely, is there, basically why handicap yourself, or would they force L-cancel on for everyone? If it's the former why ever bother having the option? It would be better to just have it or not have it.

Bold: I honestly don't know, but some people here are in favor of L-canceling over general lag reduction.
Underline: Probably not. The competitive community very rarely bans stuff (even ridiculous stuff like wobbling). However, that's probably (like most things) up to the tournament organizer. And that'll cause them to turn away some participants, which is worse in the long run.

 

[LancerStaff]

No. Player 2 learned an advanced technique. I wouldn't call l-canceling a cheat code. I can see where you're coming from though. It can give another player an unfair advantage. But so do all advanced techniques. I played Brawl for the longest time. Then I went to the arena and got blasted because I didn't know how to play it correctly. Then I learned how I should play it. Then I started winning. I don't think that argument holds really.

What's the difference between the two? They're both hidden and fully intentional features of the game. Either P1 was worse, or P2 cheated with external knowledge.

Kid Icarus Uprising, which is a mutiplayer game. And a pretty good one. Though I wouldn't call it the best comparison to Smash but it does help his point somewhat, though I never really looked into the competitive side of the game and for all I know there are ATs in the game that aren't explained.

Just wanted to say that there's not much that would actually count as an advanced technique. What would, floor teching alia SSB and the manual melee dash attack, are randomly described in loading screens. The only other thing I can think of is the mod transfer glitch, but yaknow, glitch.

Could say the same thing about DACUS, short hopping, catching thrown items, and even rolling or air dodging to an extent.

Also, I hardly believe that P1 would go from landslide victory to defeat because of L-Canceling.

The DACUS is arguably a glitch, short hopping is a regular mechanic in video games and CPUs do it, catching is done by CPUs and shown in bonus videos, and rolling and airdodging are also used by CPUs and are in the how to play videos.

 

[mimgrim]

Because some of us like to do it manually and some don't.

Offering the option is way better than the crap that pisses some people off. It's the same thing with items or random tripping. Some mind, some don't. Albeit, this is closer to Items. You can choose to have whichever ones you want on during a tourney(if any). And that's fine. But this is a more personal option. By making it by name, only those who want it get it. Everybody else gets auto-cancel. And why not challenge yourself? I prefer that since it gives me full controllable options. It's the same reason I absolutely hate Brawl's Dancing Blade. No effort is needed to actually use it like in Melee. The auto-combos are super lame and boring for me to use. Related, I'd love the option to select stuff like that too, mapping it to a Name.

I dislike the auto-cancel and find it completely useless compared to regular l-canceling. It fails to fix the lag for every character, and giving potential for a player's character to be punished only adds to the game and balances it out. It basically means being good matters in every area. It's not a bad thing to be able to screw up and require training to handle other situations. Also, as pointed out, you don't always l-cancel. Just sometimes when necessary. I don't even do it all the time, depending the move I make. By not l-cancelling, you can even lure your opponent into a false sense of security, and then hit them when they least expect it. It only adds to the experience and gives you more to work with. Auto-cancel doesn't do anything useful in the end to actually add to the game. Might as well not have it at all then.

You were talking about Auto Cancel? Which is also in Melee as well as Brawl.

I thought you were talking about L-cancel vs general lag reduction, like the person you quoted said. That basically means either L-cancel to halve lag or have lag alread halved.

If I somehow misread your post then tell me.

And people are definitely overstating how much of an impact l-canceling has on a match. It's very little. It can maybe decide a super close match by a tiny degree, but not usually does it matter.

Yea they are.

I don't think that L- Canceling is any different than the instant rev up mechanic in Devil May Cry 4 with Nero.

Or Active Reloading in Gears of War.

 

[Fuqua]

Just make L-Cancelling vs. General Reduction an option linked to names. Any issues?

Yes that option wouldn't make sense, everyone would just go for automatic L-cancels.

 

[Second Power]

Yes that option wouldn't make sense, everyone would just go for automatic L-cancels.

And yet people here are arguing for L-Canceling over General Reduction. Right here. In the past few pages. On the pretense they like the mechanic.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You were talking about Auto Cancel? Which is also in Melee as well as Brawl.

I thought you were talking about L-cancel vs general lag reduction, like the person you quoted said. That basically means either L-cancel to halve lag or have lag alread halved.

If I somehow misread your post then tell me.

That's what I mean. I call general lag reduction "auto-cancel". If I'm using the wrong term, apologies.

Yea they are.

Indeed.

Yes that option wouldn't make sense, everyone would just go for automatic L-cancels.

Some just said the opposite. So... no, not really.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

For those who say that L-canceling is hard and that ending lag should be faster.

Why not just have the A button do an entire combo? It makes it a lot easier for newer players and is easier for competition. Everyone is equal and no one has to master any combos.

Ok, ok. Extreme example is extreme. But do you see what happens with that? Everyone is on the same level and there aren't as many options or room for error. The same thing can be said if they just speed the lag for all the moves. Well not as extreme lol. Its just a little more depth thats all. And that little bit can add up to a lot.

What's the difference between the two? They're both hidden and fully intentional features of the game. Either P1 was worse, or P2 cheated with external knowledge.

Theres a big difference. One is called a cheat code and the other is a mechanic. I guess its all on how you view it. Cheating with external knowledge? I don't think thats the case with L-canceling. Its something that needs practice and time. Even if player 2 knows how to do it he may only win one match until player 1 gets wise and learns the technique. I'm really having a hard time equating L-canceling with cheating. If a player 1 doesn't know how to do something and player 2 does that doesn't mean he is cheating. That just means he knows about a technique that player 1 doesn't. The option is available to player 1 as well he just needs to learn it too.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I think people don't understand is to implement auto cancels they would have to rework every laggy landing animation to make it appear as if they are recovering faster. An L-Cancel in my opinion is much more cost effective.

 

[mimgrim]

That's what I mean. I call general lag reduction "auto-cancel". If I'm using the wrong term, apologies.

Well the general idea is the general lag reduction would be made to be just as fast a L-cancel aerial, which brings up the point. Why even bother with the option when players playing to win would go with the latter?

Also Auto Cancel; http://www.ssbwiki.com/Auto-canceling

 

[Fuqua]

And yet people here are arguing for L-Canceling over General Reduction. Right here. In the past few pages. On the pretense they like the mechanic.

What is your point exactly? Yes they like the mechanic so do i, but if you offer me an option that guarantees successful L-canlces every time vs manually L-canceling its quite obvious what people are going to go with isn't it? This is competitive play were talking about and we are going to take every advantage we can get, so I doubt anyone is going to manually L-canel because they like it when most people don't have to bother with that stuff at all.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Also, having external knowledge of a game is not cheating. Unless it's a list of information no one is allowed to have beforehand. Which is rare, and doesn't apply to SSB anyway. Everybody is given the same information. Doing research on how to properly do combos and practice is not cheating.

That's just ridiculous. It's making seriously bs excuses because you don't want to do a very easy technique. And if you don't want to do it, that's fine. But don't blame the technique, just practice more. There are some that actually matter heavily in a match(wavedashing, planking). L-Cancelling is just not in the same boat.

To note, you could do partial auto-combos in Brawl by holding down the A Button. I don't like this easy mode either. But eh, the game was clearly geared towards non-competitive play.

Well the general idea is the general lag reduction would be made to be just as fast a L-cancel aerial, which brings up the point. Why even bother with the option when players playing to win would go with the latter?

Also Auto Cancel; http://www.ssbwiki.com/Auto-canceling

I'd rather do it myself. Plain and simple. I'll never pick the general lag reduction because it doesn't urge me to get better. It just makes me lazy. Every tech barrier helps me get better.

What is your point exactly? Yes they like the mechanic so do i, but if you offer me an option that guarantees successful L-canlces every time vs manually L-canceling its quite obvious what people are going to go with isn't it? This is competitive play were talking about and we are going to take every advantage we can get, so I doubt anyone is going to manually L-canel because they like it when most people don't have to bother with that stuff at all.

You're making a giant mistake here; Speaking for others. Not everybody agrees with that and have no problem with manually doing it. A lot of people. Some have no problem with the general lag reduction. Why shouldn't both be an option exactly? How is everybody having the one they prefer not the best one overall?

 

[Chimera]

I don't think that L- Canceling is any different than the instant rev up mechanic in Devil May Cry 4 with Nero.

It gives you a full attack boost if you press L and time the attack right. You can make the same arguments about " never wanting to not doing it" or "adds nothing to the game", but the reality is that it works fine: gives you extended combo attacks, extra power, and allows you to do things a player couldn't normally do without it. Of course you can function without it too.

The difference between this and an L-Cancel is virtually nil. The difference lies in the community response. The adept gamer sees this as a way to improve combat and take the game to the next level. Our community on the other hand will complain about it to death and argue how arbitrary an application is instead of just accepting it for what it is. SF4 community didn't complain about FADC's, so why should we bicker about something that's been around for so long and works?

It's all a matter of perspective.

It's funny that you mention that, as I absolutely hated Nero's mechanics in that game.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

It's funny that you mention that, as I absolutely hated Nero's mechanics in that game.

And I thought they were dope.

Perspective, man.

 

[[TSON]]

​

This doesn't make any sense. Good competitive game design should be built to ensure that the better player wins consistently. The weaker player having a chance to win is for casual games like Mario Party or dice based board games or even Mario Kart.

The better player should be the person with superior matchup knowledge, mechanic knowledge, and character knowledge, not the person who can press L when landing the most consistently. You miss an L-Cancel, you get a potential combo started for the opponent, or an IC grab.

What do you mean by "even if they're smarter"? The player that understands the game better is smarter. You defined a casual competitive as someone who does no research about the game. He can only play so smart if he doesn't know the mechanics. Part of being smart is knowing your options in a giving circumstance and how to react out of them.

Let me hit you with a difference scenario then:
An upcoming competitive player, no matter how brilliant, or how good his, idk, Peach is, no matter how much he knows the Peach vs. Fox, Peach vs. Falco, Peach vs. Marth, etc. matchups, no matter how much he psychologically plays his opponents, if his fingers aren't literally trained to muscle memory to L-Cancel with near-flawless accuracy, is going to get BODIED. That's ****ed up.

this isn't chess, this is a fighting game, a relative high degree of apm is going to be required. outmindgaming your opponent often requires you to read them, thus react first, thus (suprise) press buttons fast​

Using the same examples from before, DOA manages to be a fast paced combo-centric fighting game without frivolous half circle inputs (well, most of the time) or muscle memory anything unless you're doing a throw. Brawl+ does/did as well. And Brawl Minus. And Crusade and SSF2. Let's put aside our Melee boners, I love Melee too, but being realistic here... I doubt the series is going to go back in that direction. The beauty of Smash is simplistic inputs, being easy to pick up and relatively easy to be "good" at, and the only barrier between being "good" and being "pro" is your own mind.

You pick up any traditional fighting game and you're going to be garbage until you learn the frivolous inputs that developers set with the half circles and 3PP and another half circle frame 2 hit up then hit down and whatever the **** they feel like. Your fingers and your initial knowledge can make picking up a fighting game incredibly hard. To get truly good at Brawl and take your gameplay to the next level you need to know your OPPONENT, not the game. I think SSB4 will follow suit. We don't need L-Cancelling to be a good fighting game.

I would like someone to kindly explain to me what the motive is for pushing for an input that you want 100% of the time. If it's "not that hard" then you're going to be doing it consistently; 100% of the time. Meaning, making this "happen automatically" (reducing landlag, again, 100% of the time without requiring input) would carry benefit to those who don't know about L-Cancelling yet and not affect high level play. Are we trying to make competitive Smash a big brick wall closed garden or something? "Wats L Cancel? U don't know? Piss off"

Making it automatic enables the fun fast-paced gameplay we all want to see without ****ing over new competitive entrants. I see no downsides.

 

[asd_]

The beauty of Smash is simplistic inputs, being easy to pick up and relatively easy to be "good" at, and the only barrier between being "good" and being "pro" is your own mind.

i'm convinced this game smash you speak of is not the same smash these forums are for

I would like someone to kindly explain to me what the motive is for pushing for an input that you want 100% of the time. If it's "not that hard" then you're going to be doing it consistently; 100% of the time.

it's easy to do but not 100% of the time, adding a layer of depth. should there be no csing in league? you always want to cs 100% of the time (let's not get too in depth into lane mechanics here, generally speaking if a creep is 1 hp you want to cs it)

Making it automatic enables the fun fast-paced gameplay we all want to see without ****ing over new competitive entrants. I see no downsides.

if somebody physically can't l cancel, there are very few video games he or she would be decent at on a competitive level that has a competitve community outside of like hearthstone. you literally press one button before you hit the ground. it is not difficult whatsoever

 

[SnappyJ]

I don't really have a problem with L cancelling in Melee or PM, but I don't think that it really needs to be in Smash 4. To me it seems that every character is given strengths and weaknesses for a reason, and adding in L cancelling seems to disproportionately buff certain characters more than others by mitigating their weaknesses. Landing lag is there to give us a risk/reward factor, and if you decide to jump in with a big move and miss you should be open for punishment. Anyway, just my two cents.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

The better player should be the person with superior matchup knowledge, mechanic knowledge, and character knowledge, not the person who can press L when landing the most consistently. You miss an L-Cancel, you get a potential combo started for the opponent, or an IC grab.


Let me hit you with a difference scenario then:
An upcoming competitive player, no matter how brilliant, or how good his, idk, Peach is, no matter how much he knows the Peach vs. Fox, Peach vs. Falco, Peach vs. Marth, etc. matchups, no matter how much he psychologically plays his opponents, if his fingers aren't literally trained to muscle memory to L-Cancel with near-flawless accuracy, is going to get BODIED. That's ****ed up.


Using the same examples from before, DOA manages to be a fast paced combo-centric fighting game without frivolous half circle inputs (well, most of the time) or muscle memory anything unless you're doing a throw. Brawl+ does/did as well. And Brawl Minus. And Crusade and SSF2. Let's put aside our Melee boners, I love Melee too, but being realistic here... I doubt the series is going to go back in that direction. The beauty of Smash is simplistic inputs, being easy to pick up and relatively easy to be "good" at, and the only barrier between being "good" and being "pro" is your own mind.

You pick up any traditional fighting game and you're going to be garbage until you learn the frivolous inputs that developers set with the half circles and 3PP and another half circle frame 2 hit up then hit down and whatever the **** they feel like. Your fingers and your initial knowledge can make picking up a fighting game incredibly hard. To get truly good at Brawl and take your gameplay to the next level you need to know your OPPONENT, not the game. I think SSB4 will follow suit. We don't need L-Cancelling to be a good fighting game.

I would like someone to kindly explain to me what the motive is for pushing for an input that you want 100% of the time. If it's "not that hard" then you're going to be doing it consistently; 100% of the time. Meaning, making this "happen automatically" (reducing landlag, again, 100% of the time without requiring input) would carry benefit to those who don't know about L-Cancelling yet and not affect high level play. Are we trying to make competitive Smash a big brick wall closed garden or something? "Wats L Cancel? U don't know? Piss off"

Making it automatic enables the fun fast-paced gameplay we all want to see without ****ing over new competitive entrants. I see no downsides.

I'm just gonna hit this one paragraph at a time since I don't feel like doing this.

P1: IC grabs and combos happen in many more situations than just whiffing an aerial. What if your opponent just zones better? It's not like L-Canceling stopped chain grabs in Brawl.

P2: You have to learn things to get ahead in life. Like you have to learn to drive a car to open up more opportunities to travel independently, get a job, have friends etc. It's not ****ed up, it's just life. It's like saying "Man, I keep applying to be a nuclear engineer, but they keep turning me down because I don't have a degree or the necessary experience".

P3:

P4: You are exaggerating. Some inputs really aren't that difficult and work with the flow of the game. These inputs also have shortcuts, and implement things called " two-in-ones". If you do a crouching medium kick, since you are already holding down, you can press down/forward, forward + Punch to do a hadouken. If these fighting games were so painstakingly difficult then why do people to this day play them. Yeah, I couldn't do a hadouken... When I was ****ing 6. Then I just read the game manual and figured out how to do it. Sure it took some practice, but it wasn't that hard after I understood how everything works. Just practice a little, man.

P5: Only if you explain to me why doing so is such a bad thing to learn. As for seeking an answer, read through the thread

P6: I can see it as a bad design element considering that it's taking away control of something the player can do on there own.

 

[LancerStaff]

For those who say that L-canceling is hard and that ending lag should be faster.

Why not just have the A button do an entire combo? It makes it a lot easier for newer players and is easier for competition. Everyone is equal and no one has to master any combos.

Ok, ok. Extreme example is extreme. But do you see what happens with that? Everyone is on the same level and there aren't as many options or room for error. It the same thing can be said if they just speed the lag for all the moves. Well not as extreme lol. Its just a little more depth thats all. And that little bit can add up to a lot.


Theres a big difference. One is called a cheat code and the other is a mechanic. I guess its all on how you view it. Cheating with external knowledge? I don't think thats the case with L-canceling. Its something that needs practice and time. Even if player 2 knows how to do it he may only win one match until player 1 gets wise and learns the technique. I'm really having a hard time equating L-canceling with cheating. If a player 1 doesn't know how to do something and player 2 does that doesn't mean he is cheating. That just means he knows about a technique that player 1 doesn't. The option is available to player 1 as well he just needs to learn it too.

Right there. That's my problem with intentionally hiding things like this. There's no real difference between this and a code, both all but require learning of them outside of the game, and only severe to artificially create a skill gap. One should be able to master a game with what it gives you, yes? But if the game outright told you how to L-cancel then the "protecting the noobs" thought to justify L-canceling is null, and we're back at zero positives for including L-canceling.

Also, having external knowledge of a game is not cheating. Unless it's a list of information no one is allowed to have beforehand. Which is rare, and doesn't apply to SSB anyway. Everybody is given the same information. Doing research on how to properly do combos and practice is not cheating.

That's just ridiculous. It's making seriously bs excuses because you don't want to do a very easy technique. And if you don't want to do it, that's fine. But don't blame the technique, just practice more. There are some that actually matter heavily in a match(wavedashing, planking). L-Cancelling is just not in the same boat.

To note, you could do partial auto-combos in Brawl by holding down the A Button. I don't like this easy mode either. But eh, the game was clearly geared towards non-competitive play.


I'd rather do it myself. Plain and simple. I'll never pick the general lag reduction because it doesn't urge me to get better. It just makes me lazy. Every tech barrier helps me get better.


You're making a giant mistake here; Speaking for others. Not everybody agrees with that and have no problem with manually doing it. A lot of people. Some have no problem with the general lag reduction. Why shouldn't both be an option exactly? How is everybody having the one they prefer not the best one overall?

I'm not saying it's cheating, but looking up tricks doesn't have a thing to do with skill.

i'm convinced this game smash you speak of is not the same smash these forums are for



if somebody physically can't l cancel, there are very few video games he or she would be decent at on a competitive level that has a competitve community outside of like hearthstone. you literally press one button before you hit the ground. it is not difficult whatsoever

Heck yeah it is. That's why SSB isn't filled with Streetfighter combos and tons of meters and only requires three buttons to play. You can practically choose a Sakurai interview at random and he'll talk about how SSB was trying to distance itself from the overly hardcore fighting game crowd.

 

[Praxis]

The better player should be the person with superior matchup knowledge, mechanic knowledge, and character knowledge, not the person who can press L when landing the most consistently. You miss an L-Cancel, you get a potential combo started for the opponent, or an IC grab.


Let me hit you with a difference scenario then:
An upcoming competitive player, no matter how brilliant, or how good his, idk, Peach is, no matter how much he knows the Peach vs. Fox, Peach vs. Falco, Peach vs. Marth, etc. matchups, no matter how much he psychologically plays his opponents, if his fingers aren't literally trained to muscle memory to L-Cancel with near-flawless accuracy, is going to get BODIED. That's ****ed up.


Using the same examples from before, DOA manages to be a fast paced combo-centric fighting game without frivolous half circle inputs (well, most of the time) or muscle memory anything unless you're doing a throw. Brawl+ does/did as well. And Brawl Minus. And Crusade and SSF2. Let's put aside our Melee boners, I love Melee too, but being realistic here... I doubt the series is going to go back in that direction. The beauty of Smash is simplistic inputs, being easy to pick up and relatively easy to be "good" at, and the only barrier between being "good" and being "pro" is your own mind.

You pick up any traditional fighting game and you're going to be garbage until you learn the frivolous inputs that developers set with the half circles and 3PP and another half circle frame 2 hit up then hit down and whatever the **** they feel like. Your fingers and your initial knowledge can make picking up a fighting game incredibly hard. To get truly good at Brawl and take your gameplay to the next level you need to know your OPPONENT, not the game. I think SSB4 will follow suit. We don't need L-Cancelling to be a good fighting game.

I would like someone to kindly explain to me what the motive is for pushing for an input that you want 100% of the time. If it's "not that hard" then you're going to be doing it consistently; 100% of the time. Meaning, making this "happen automatically" (reducing landlag, again, 100% of the time without requiring input) would carry benefit to those who don't know about L-Cancelling yet and not affect high level play. Are we trying to make competitive Smash a big brick wall closed garden or something? "Wats L Cancel? U don't know? Piss off"

Making it automatic enables the fun fast-paced gameplay we all want to see without ****ing over new competitive entrants. I see no downsides.

To use a REAL example from a fighting game, using your words, if a player at Street Fighter II Turbo is smarter than his opponent, no matter how brilliant he is, no matter how much he psychologically outplays his opponent, if his fingers aren't literally trained to muscle memory to Shoryuken (forward down diagonal attack) with near-flawless accuracy, he is going to get BODIED.

And that's normal in fighting games.

Execution matters.

 

[Ulevo]

Casual? Oh ho ho. Yeah, no. Been truly studying SSB for the past two years and I can play Melee and Brawl proficiently. Why are you trying to label me as a casual just because I hate one minor aspect of competitive Melee?

Think of it like this: P1 plays SSB for 1000 hours. P2 plays 100. P1 naturally wins by a landslide. But then somebody whispers in P2's ear about L-canceling, and the very next match P1 loses because he doesn't know how to L-cancel. Is P2 really the better player? Or let's say they're playing Goldeneye64. P1 is above and beyond the better player, but P2 found the cheat code for invinciblity and used it. Is P2 the better player because he found one obscure thing P1 didn't?

My post wasn't directed towards you. It was referencing what you were describing.

Anyway, your example is ridiculous because mere knowledge of L-Cancelling will not win you a game over someone. You need to be effective at it. And not only is it not going to supplement 1000 hours versus 100 hours worth of play, there are other factors to consider. I've been playing Smash for 15 years now, and I recently have been playing with someone locally who has only been playing it since some time last year, yet he is able to occasionally beat me from time to time. The reason for this has nothing to do with him being privy to knowledge I'm not; he has a fighting game background, and has played traditional fighters and other video games for many, many years. Even though he was just introduced to Smash, his life experience with games helped him to learn the game faster and pick up on concepts. This is something, amongst other things, your example doesn't explain or account for.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Right there. That's my problem with intentionally hiding things like this. There's no real difference between this and a code, both all but require learning of them outside of the game, and only severe to artificially create a skill gap. One should be able to master a game with what it gives you, yes? But if the game outright told you how to L-cancel then the "protecting the noobs" thought to justify L-canceling is null, and we're back at zero positives for including L-canceling.

Yea I'd agree that mechanics should be told in-game but that didn't really stop Brawl with having all the extra stuff that it has. Like pivot-grabs and even smash taunts. Changing from Samus to Zero Suit Samus isn't explained in-game nor is gliding. I would love for all of these things to have been included in some kind of video or explanation in game but it wasn't and I had to look up these things on the internet. I still have to because some of them I just don't remember lol. I guess you're not really advocating for Brawl necessarily though.

If it was included in some kind of instruction thing than that'd be cool. I still think that even if they said how to L-cancel in game that everyone would be able to do it. I know people who hardly know how to roll and theres an in-game guide on that. So its not like every new player would immediately know how to L-cancel if they showed it. It is all a matter of practice.

 

[[TSON]]

P6: I can see it as a bad design element considering that it's taking away control of something the player can do on there own.

We could make the player circle the control stick or mash L exactly 12 times during hitlag to get out else get stuck in hitlag forever, but we don't. Exaggerated, but still valid. "Cause we can" is not gonna convince anyone lmfao. If you ALWAYS want to do something, it's not control, it's frivolous. Redundant. Would this hypothetical input be a good idea too? It gives more control to the player and rewards those that are aware of it just like L-Cancelling does.

To use a REAL example from a fighting game, using your words, if a player at Street Fighter II Turbo is smarter than his opponent, no matter how brilliant he is, no matter how much he psychologically outplays his opponent, if his fingers aren't literally trained to muscle memory to Shoryuken (forward down diagonal attack) with near-flawless accuracy, he is going to get BODIED.

And that's normal in fighting games.

Execution matters.

Of course. But Smash is not Street Fighter. You don't have to do 3-quarter-circle movements to do an up special or some crazy long string of inputs to do a final smash. To keep that same idea of cutting the crazy inputs down going, being consistent... I'm just completely not getting why it would be a good idea to introduce a frivolous input somewhere else. The best thing about Smash imo mechanic-wise is its streamlined input system.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

We could make the player circle the control stick or mash L exactly 12 times during hitlag to get out else get stuck in hitlag forever, but we don't. Exaggerated, but still valid. "Cause we can" is not gonna convince anyone lmfao. If you ALWAYS want to do something, it's not control, it's frivolous. Redundant. Would this hypothetical input be a good idea too? It gives more control to the player and rewards those that are aware of it just like L-Cancelling does.

Again, what's wrong with it being redundant? An L-Cancel or any input doesn't have to be exciting every time you do it, it just has to work. There is no law of diminishing utility that justifies it not needing to be used, but overall excitement of use does reduce after it is committed to muscle memory. Riding a bike is redundant because you are simply working the machine the same way, but the excitement comes from externalities, the road, speed, path, or in this case of smash, the opponent, techniques, combos. If redundancy is an issue the game should assign me a different button every time I jump, attack, and so on. I'm not a child, I don't have to feel excited about every little thing.

The excitement doesn't always come from the execution, but from what you are doing with it. No one will cheer about an L-Cancel, but a long series of attacks that occurred as a result of proper use is what is exciting.

 

[[TSON]]

Again, what's wrong with it being redundant? An L-Cancel or any input doesn't have to be exciting every time you do it, it just has to work. There is no law of diminishing utility that justifies it not needing to be used, but overall excitement of use does reduce after it is committed to muscle memory. Riding a bike is redundant because you are simply working the machine the same way, but the excitement comes from externalities, the road, speed, path, or in this case of smash, the opponent, techniques, combos. If redundancy is an issue the game should assign me a different button every time I jump, attack, and so on. I'm not a child, I don't have to feel excited about every little thing.

The excitement doesn't always come from the execution, but from what you are doing with it. No one will cheer about an L-Cancel, but a long series of attacks that occurred as a result of proper use is what is exciting.

But would it not be just as exciting if those happened with more players because we've gotten rid of that muscle memory requirement? We'd see more combos in lower levels of gameplay. More combo videos. More interest in combos across the board. That's my argument.

I can't even call this more control - that would imply that sometimes you'd want to not L-Cancel... but not L-Cancelling offers no benefit at all. That's my problem. If there was EVER a reason to not L-Cancel, it wouldn't be a barrier, it'd be an option. But unfortunately there's just not. This just makes combos harder at lower levels of play.

 

[mimgrim]

Honestly. If I had to really go into what I dislike about L-cancel the most is more related to the GC controller and is only a concern regarding Melee. The springs in the L/R button are annoying, but I don't want to mod my GC controller either, making it uncomfortable and the Z button feels a bit too tight to press, although it is much better then L/R. In Project M I don't have this problem cause I can put shield/grab to one of the face buttons, like A for example.

Honestly. My biggest gripe with Melee overall is lack of control options, especially over tap jump for me to DD properly I have to change hand positions xD.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Quick question for those supporting L-Canceling. If it required, say two buttons, or a button and a (possibly multiple) directional input(s) would it inherently make it better? In fact, let's boil it down. Is harder always better?

 

[asd_]

Quick question for those supporting L-Canceling. If it required, say two buttons, or a button and a (possibly multiple) directional input(s) would it inherently make it better? In fact, let's boil it down. Is harder always better?

no

it is just an additional mechanic

additional mechanics = more depth to the game

really the best analogy would be csing in league, what if they just gave you gold for free? removes a HUGE skill barrier, even though csing is easy. not missing one is a different story, however

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

no

it is just an additional mechanic

additional mechanics = more depth to the game

really the best analogy would be csing in league, what if they just gave you gold for free? removes a HUGE skill barrier, even though csing is easy. not missing one is a different story, however

What's wrong with removing it though? I'm not trying to troll here, just trying to wrap my brain around the argument to keep it in. So far, all it seems (from my perspective at least) the argument seems to be that it requires practice and culls the lower level players from higher level players, which in a way sounds as though many people don't WANT more people playing competitively.

 

[mimgrim]

really the best analogy would be csing in league, what if they just gave you gold for free? removes a HUGE skill barrier, even though csing is easy. not missing one is a different story, however

When you bring a mechanic from a different game to compare. It's best to go into detail about it because some people, like me, may not have played LoL.

I'm still sticking to my Gears of War analogy though.

Anyway. As someone who has played Gears of War, albeit not competitively (though I really really really want to) due to lack of reliable WiFi. But it does have a mechanic that is comparable to L-cancel. It's called Active Reloading. When you reload your weapon in that game a little bar will appear on the screen with a somewhat medium sized grey section and a small section with the rest being a black section. If you hit the reload button again while the cursor is in the black part of the reload you jam your reload and it takes even longer. If you hit the grey part it speeds up your reload. And if you hit the white part you damage out put increased along with the speed increase. Now this mechanic might be more accepted because it has a risk factor to it, but technically speaking I believe L-cancel does have a risk (albeit much minor) risk to it in that you can't Tech if you get hit during the L-cancel (I know this is the case for PM and I think it is also the case for Melee but I don't remember), but the same principal is still there. There is no reason to not hit the white section and you will always want to and eventually it will become so ingrained into your muscle memory that you can hit the white section without looking at it, though I haven't reached that point yet though. So it would be pretty hypocritical of me to be ok with this mechanic but not with L-cancel, even though I wouldn't care a great deal if it doesn't come back anyway. So really if the GoW mechanic, that I explained, sounds ok to you then I don't see how you could have a problem with L-cancel.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

Honestly. If I had to really go into what I dislike about L-cancel the most is more related to the GC controller and is only a concern regarding Melee. The springs in the L/R button are annoying, but I don't want to mod my GC controller either, making it uncomfortable and the Z button feels a bit too tight to press, although it is much better then L/R. In Project M I don't have this problem cause I can put shield/grab to one of the face buttons, like A for example.

Honestly. My biggest gripe with Melee overall is lack of control options, especially over tap jump for me to DD properly I have to change hand positions xD.

Just to let you know, you don't have to click the triggers all the way down to L cancel, just lightly tap them. The triggers are very sensitive and allow you to adjust the pressure for things like light shielding in Melee.

 

[mimgrim]

Just to let you know, you don't have to click the triggers all the way down to L cancel, just lightly tap them. The triggers are very sensitive and allow you to adjust the pressure for things like light shielding in Melee.

Oh I know. But I an never get myself to just lightly press them to L-cancel. When I press a button my instinct is to press it all the way And I haven't been able to break that habbit for the trigger yet. :/

 

[grizby2]

the one thing I don't lake about L-canceling is that it takes the balance out of some moves. some moves are MEANT to have lengthy landing lag.

link's D-air has some hefty knockback and damage to boot, not to mention it comes out pretty fast. so what if you miss? well, that's too bad, you're open for an attack now. that's the price you pay for using link's D-air. that way, its balanced.

also, when people suggest speeding up landing lag for EVERYTHING, I think they forget that this doesn't speed up everything ELSE. theres still run speed, wind-up time, hit-stun, ect. if you speed up the landing lag for something that already has relatively low landing lag... then what?

im generally against L-canceling, but I do feel that some moves need to be looked at again because the landing lag or punishment time don't make up for the damage/knockback/hitstun they inflict. that way, L-canceling wouldn't be needed, and moves would make a bit more sense. (ie: C. falcons side-B, it punishes the user half the time)

to the OP: I wouldn't mind if it had a limit, at least you would have to choose which moves you would L-cancel out of, maybe to continue combo'ing or maybe you need to avoid an attack. its the fact that it can be used all the time for all air menuvers that bugs me really.

no

really the best analogy would be csing in league, what if they just gave you gold for free? removes a HUGE skill barrier, even though csing is easy. not missing one is a different story, however

I don't that analogy works...

heres one.

imagine that everytime you press the down arrow key on you keyboard at least .3 seconds right after you cast a spell, its cooldown goes down by one second.
how OP would urgot be if that mechanic made its way into LoL?

 

[asd_]

What's wrong with removing it though? I'm not trying to troll here, just trying to wrap my brain around the argument to keep it in. So far, all it seems (from my perspective at least) the argument seems to be that it requires practice and culls the lower level players from higher level players, which in a way sounds as though many people don't WANT more people playing competitively.

removing it removes a layer of depth to the game

people that want to play competitively want to get better -- adding more depth to the game is how you allow for that improvement

I don't that analogy works...

heres one.

imagine that everytime you press the down arrow key on you keyboard at least .3 seconds right after you cast a spell, its cooldown goes down by one second.
how OP would urgot be if that mechanic made its way into LoL?

that analogy is perfectly fine.. l canceling is significantly less impactful than that from a balance standpoint..at least untill we're talking mid-high d1/challenger play where csing sometimes isn't the absolute best trade but let's forget about that

 

[mimgrim]

I think it is funny when people quote a analogy someone else posted with how it doesn't work. Yet mine hasn't been quoted.

Does that mean people can't think of a good way to counter it?

 

[asd_]

I think it is funny when people quote a analogy someone else posted with how it doesn't work. Yet mine hasn't been quoted.

Does that mean people can't think of a good way to counter it?

yours is better than mine honestly

 

[grizby2]

removing it removes a layer of depth to the game

people that want to play competitively want to get better -- adding more depth to the game is how you allow for that improvement



no, certain abilities that are l canceled still take longer than others. it isnt instantanious

pm generally speaking does it right

that analogy is perfectly fine..at least untill we're talking mid-high d1/challenger play where csing sometimes isn't the absolute best trade but let's forget about that

im aware its not instantaneous.

also, Cs'ing is something that league of legends teaches you first hand. melee does not teach you L-canceling. but yeah, d1/challenger cs'ing is pretty intense.

 

[mimgrim]

also, Cs'ing is something that league of legends teaches you first hand. melee does not teach you L-canceling.

Just to clear things up. You would then be fine with L-cancel if the game told you about it? If so. Why? What makes the game teaching it to you so special when you have the internet.

I mean there has even been a recent commercial that tells you to check the internet to see if there phone is any good even. Because of all the stuff you can find on there.

 

[[TSON]]

also, when people suggest speeding up landing lag for EVERYTHING, I think they forget that this doesn't speed up everything ELSE. theres still run speed, wind-up time, hit-stun, ect. if you speed up the landing lag for something that already has relatively low landing lag... then what?

This is Smash Bros! You're almost always doing a short hop aerial. L-Cancelling/lower landlag is a HUGE deal.

If you're speeding up something that's already got low landlag, it still could make a world of difference. Just two or three frames can be the difference between being safe on shield hit or not. Or the difference between being able to combo a uair into another uair or not.

 

[Snakeyes]

the one thing I don't lake about L-canceling is that it takes the balance out of some moves. some moves are MEANT to have lengthy landing lag.

link's D-air has some hefty knockback and damage to boot, not to mention it comes out pretty fast. so what if you miss? well, that's too bad, you're open for an attack now. that's the price you pay for using link's D-air. that way, its balanced.

Eh. Melee's version of L-canceling cuts down the landing lag in half. Link's Dair, even when canceled, will leave you open for a longer period of time than most aerials so it's still balanced. This is why you rarely see people spamming the move at a high level.

 

[D-idara]

To use a REAL example from a fighting game, using your words, if a player at Street Fighter II Turbo is smarter than his opponent, no matter how brilliant he is, no matter how much he psychologically outplays his opponent, if his fingers aren't literally trained to muscle memory to Shoryuken (forward down diagonal attack) with near-flawless accuracy, he is going to get BODIED.

And that's normal in fighting games.

Execution matters.

It's normal, it's common...it's also wrong.