L-Canceling

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

L-Canceling really doesn't add anything other than the barrier. If you let people have their lag cut in half, same combo system would still exist. If you removed it and did this, then you would have the same game just easier.

Even with customization with your controller, making it so it auto wavedashes for you doesn't really work. This is also is a no-no even other fighting games where having a hotkey button to do this for you gets you DQ'd. You need to change your directional input for how far you go and which direction you go/etc.

The difference between L-Canceling and Wavedashing in terms of gameplay is pretty large, without L-canceling but giving characters their aireal endlag if they had always L-Cancelled, wouldn't change gameplay. Removing Wavedashing would change a lot more and there isn't a kind of way to make it similar to this.

What I am saying is,

L-Canceling is a tech barrier that in turn, really doesn't add gameplay to smash and has a pretty clear way to keep it the same while removing it.

Wavedashing is a tech that actually adds to mobility and has gameplay interaction with actual decision making and choices.

Is the barrier bad though? You get a reward for having a little more skill. No different from wavedashing.

Wavedashing can easily be made easier. Sakurai could, if he wanted to, make a wavedashing button just as easily as any other. You slide in a direction. The control stick in this case would be used the same way you regularly wavedash in which the more you tilt towards a direction, the farther you go. It decreases nothing, and adds a smaller tech skill barrier, which is supposedly good. It would essentially do the same thing, as you are removing the need for tech skill and rewards for tech skill to cater to people who are bad or don't perform tech skill.

Technically that isn't true for what most people suggest when taking out L-cancel. When most people talk about taking out L-cancel they mean to reduce the landing lag to equal that of an L-canceled aerial.

In essence you would get the same results as you do with L-cancel without the tech barrier and the very occasional missed L-cancel, but everything you could do with an L-cancel would transition over, like Falco's pillars.

That's the main gist of it anyway.

I know that, i'm saying this to show how a regular L cancel completely changes gameplay.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Is the barrier bad though? You get a reward for having a little more skill. No different from wavedashing.

Wavedashing can easily be made easier. Sakurai could, if he wanted to, make a wavedashing button just as easily as any other. You slide in a direction. The control stick in this case would be used the same way you regularly wavedash in which the more you tilt towards a direction, the farther you go. It decreases nothing, and adds a smaller tech skill barrier, which is supposedly good. It would essentially do the same thing, as you are removing the need for tech skill and rewards for tech skill to cater to people who are bad or don't perform tech skill.

Wavedashing button "could" work but you still need to consider the desicion making differences with it compared to L-canceling. Barrier is fine if there is some point to it other than, lets make it hard for hards sake. I'm not asking for it to be removed because it is a tech, I'm asking for it to be removed because it doesn't serve a purpose nor does it add gameplay interaction.

You're comparison doesn't work here either because wavedashing would still retain it's gameplay and interaction elements.

L-Canceling fails this test on all levels, exception some fringe and very very limited situations.

 

[Ulevo]

Without really reading his post 100%, Red Ryu is right. It has no use in terms of in game decision making, and would only serve to make the game easier by removing it. That being said, I do believe there are added benefits to having an arbitrary tech barrier like L-Cancelling in Smash that go beyond this scope of game design, like I've already touched on.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

Wavedashing button "could" work but you still need to consider the desicion making differences with it compared to L-canceling. Barrier is fine if there is some point to it other than, lets make it hard for hards sake. I'm not asking for it to be removed because it is a tech, I'm asking for it to be removed because it doesn't serve a purpose nor does it add gameplay interaction.

You're comparison doesn't work here either because wavedashing would still retain it's gameplay and interaction elements.

L-Canceling fails this test on all levels, exception some fringe and very very limited situations.

It's not about making it hard for hard's sake. It's about reward for good players. And is there a problem with making something difficult or making them require tech skill? You fail to give any good reason as to why that's bad.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

So do we know for certain that it's not coming back?

 

[Ellipsis]

The question I think we should be asking is, who is L-canceling supposed to affect, and why?

Competitive players learn to L-cancel, out of necessity. They play the game with the quick landing lag. Casual players usually do not know L-canceling exists, and those who know might not bother to practice it. So, at the end of the day, the primary function of L-canceling is to make casual players play a nerfed version of the game with slower landing lag. This makes defensive play (read: camping) slightly more powerful, and in my experience, camping isn't looked at fondly.

Why should this system exist?

 

[D-idara]

It's not about making it hard for hard's sake. It's about reward for good players. And is there a problem with making something difficult or making them require tech skill? You fail to give any good reason as to why that's bad.

Because Smash IS BUILT around the foundation of a game's depth not being achieved through etilist, arbitrary tech barriers, but through good use of the game's core mechanics. With every tech barrier, you make it slightly harder for the average player to become better, and then the learning process stops being a slope and grows difficulty spikes, obstacles! If I can't do L-Cancel no matter how much I practice, why should that trumpy my enjoyment of the game? The timing's too tight, too much like those filthy commands on SF that only serve as stupid tech barriers.

I understand the notion that game should reward good players, but I still think it's stupid and tech barriers are not the way to do it.

The question I think we should be asking is, who is L-canceling supposed to affect, and why?

Competitive players learn to L-cancel, out of necessity. They play the game with the quick landing lag. Casual players usually do not know L-canceling exists, and those who know might not bother to practice it. So, at the end of the day, the primary function of L-canceling is to make casual players play a nerfed version of the game with slower landing lag. This makes defensive play (read: camping) slightly more powerful, and in my experience, camping isn't looked at fondly.

Why should this system exist?

It basically gives the competitive players a slightly-higher golden pedestal for themselves. People should be proud of their amazing combos, their hard mind-reading capabilities and their strategies, not about being able to press L EVERY TIME THEY LAND. I understand wavedash because the input's not that hard and you have to strategize with it, but L-Cancel's just that, a shallow barrier.

 

[CF711]

So after reading over this thread a little bit I'm torn. I can see why it would be good to keep in and why it should be removed.

Taking what Project M did for it, with the white flashes to tell you that you did it correctly, and looking at it from a developer stand point it makes sense. It feels good to land an L-Cancel. You feel like you were able to do something you weren't before. You were able to keep the combo going or able to shield the incoming attack. It makes the player feel rewarded for doing it and want to do it more. The white flash acts as a visual cue that you did it correctly.

On the other hand it can feel like an unnecessary barrier to the game. Why shouldn't I L-Cancel? It seems like just about every aerial I would want to L-Cancel. It can create a gap between players over a basis of knowledge.

I think there could be a middle ground for this. First create an advanced techniques tutorial for Sm4sh and have it contain the advanced techs that all characters can do. Now since L-Cancelling is still the technique we are looking at, put in an option for it to be automatically done, similar to what I believe they did in Project M. You can enable the game to automatically L-Cancel for either individual players, via the controller config screen, or possibly all players.

I think that this allows that barrier to be more evened out while still allowing that depth or good feeling to the game play.

 

[mimgrim]

^Project M doesn't enable auto L-cancel.

Also the problem with the pay toggle is that it will either be banned from tournaments, which will make people unhappy one way or another, or everyone will have it set to auto L-cancel because your goal is to win in a tournament and thus make that chance as big as possible.

 

[Ulevo]

The question I think we should be asking is, who is L-canceling supposed to affect, and why?

Competitive players learn to L-cancel, out of necessity. They play the game with the quick landing lag. Casual players usually do not know L-canceling exists, and those who know might not bother to practice it. So, at the end of the day, the primary function of L-canceling is to make casual players play a nerfed version of the game with slower landing lag. This makes defensive play (read: camping) slightly more powerful, and in my experience, camping isn't looked at fondly.

Why should this system exist?

You're putting a competitive analysis on a casual demographic. This is what is wrong with these arguments.

 

[Vkrm]

Because Smash IS BUILT around the foundation of a game's depth not being achieved through etilist, arbitrary tech barriers, but through good use of the game's core mechanics.

Apparently You're operating under the outdated assumption that L canceling can be categorized as something other than a core game mechanic. It IS a core mechanic. We can reason sakurai himself disagrees with you considering its been included in two of the previous smash games intentionally. I'm not usually one for arguments from authority, but I find it appropriate in this case because I'm arguing against someone who believes he alone can interpret the will of our lord Sakurai.

With every tech barrier, you make it slightly harder for the average player to become better, and then the learning process stops being a slope and grows difficulty spikes, obstacles! If I can't do L-Cancel no matter how much I practice, why should that trumpy my enjoyment of the game?

It doesn't. When is L canceling needed? Only when your goal is beating high level players. The presence of ATs don't do anything to worsen the core smash bros experience. ****ing around with red shells is on four side is as much fun in melee as it is on brawl. Besides, last I checked brawl was the one struggling to maintain its player base. Meanwhile melee is booming so that proves you are in the minority when you suggest melee is too difficult for most to enjoy.

I understand the notion that game should reward good players, but I still think it's stupid and tech barriers are not the way to do it.

It's not as if strategic thinking and technical skill occupy two opposite ends of a spectrum. Where does the depth in smash come from? The freedom you have with your character. The difficulty in smash comes from the same place.

It basically gives the competitive players a slightly-higher golden pedestal for themselves. People should be proud of their amazing combos, their hard mind-reading capabilities and their strategies, not about being able to press L EVERY TIME THEY LAND. I understand wavedash because the input's not that hard and you have to strategize with it, but L-Cancel's just that, a shallow barrier.

Successfully comboing somebody involves properly L canceling. Having to manually cancel your lag gives your opponent certain opportunities to Jew you out of your cancel by adding hitlag where you didn't expect.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Without really reading his post 100%, Red Ryu is right. It has no use in terms of in game decision making, and would only serve to make the game easier by removing it. That being said, I do believe there are added benefits to having an arbitrary tech barrier like L-Cancelling in Smash that go beyond this scope of game design, like I've already touched on.

While I understand it does add a level to be mastered, I don't think gameplay wise it really has a place in the game.

I know people around my area like Melee and PM for being harder to master, and I do see that. But for an installment of the series, I don't see why it needs to be there over something else. Basically, I would rather difficulty be as a result of them trying to outplay there opponent or trying something technical because it adds to something else.

I get where the added barrier can help with player experience, but I don't think it adds more good than bad.

It's not about making it hard for hard's sake. It's about reward for good players. And is there a problem with making something difficult or making them require tech skill? You fail to give any good reason as to why that's bad.

There is a problem, which I've said three times already.

It doesn't offer gameplay. It rewards technical skill but not good gameplay, because it lacks gameplay or decision making. This is where wavedashing succeeds and L canceling fails.

You don't need to make something hard just cause, in a fighting game. You can if it can lead to something with plays, mix-ups, combos for different reasons. But Lcanceling really doesn't do any of this. I still think it needs a point other than, making the game harder.

It doesn't add any decisions to using it, that is why it is bad.

So do we know for certain that it's not coming back?

He's more or less confirmed this is the case with this and wavedashing.

Successfully comboing somebody involves properly L canceling. Having to manually cancel your lag gives your opponent certain opportunities to Jew you out of your cancel by adding hitlag where you didn't expect.

This isn't as hard to compensate for. Even high profile players have said it's not that hard to do it with hitlag.

 

[LancerStaff]

1. That in no way helps your argument

2. with the exception of DI (which I only included because of the post you quoted), those are all commonly referred to as ATs. Whether you consider them to be or not is irrelevant. They are ATs and have been called that for years to where at this point it is fact and not opinion.

So a couple of fan made terms are fact? Right...
It's strong attacks, not tilts.
It's guarding, not shielding.
It's smooth landing, not L-canceling.

New mechanic. If you press L/R/Z(?) at the right time you get a successful L-Cancel. If you mistime it, your lag doubles :]

There still isn't any reason to not do it, AKA most people's biggest complaint with L-canceling.

If I had to guess, Sakurai is trying to blur the lines between casual and competitive players. We're getting the first official SSB tournament with "highly skilled" players. If M2K doesn't make it, I'd be shocked. Then there's for Glory, a mode about serious matches. Techs and combos will likely become mainstream. If Sakurai was trying to blur the lines, he'd take out arbitrary barriers so more people could compete. I honestly don't see a reason Sakurai would keep L-canceling based on what I've seen.

 

[fabulouspants]

lol shoryuken and hadouken inputs are harder than l cancelling. they're all simple and become muscle memory with time and practice. its fun to learn.

 

[Snakeyes]

So do people want anything that requires some form or learning or practice in smash at all?:

Sure.

- spacing/footsies
- shield pressure/stabbing
- frame traps
- efficient movement
- knowledge of moveset properties
- knowledge of stage properties
- techasing
- edgeguarding
- recovering
- offensive and defensive DI
- knownledge of which combos work on a given character at a given damage percentage
- intangibles (mindgames)

As you can see, there are over a dozen skill and experience-based aspects of Smash that would remain intact if landing lag was simply cut down across the board. I would also argue that most, if not all of the above are much more crucial to winning at a high level than being extremely consistent with your L-cancels. What I mean by this is not that a player who cannot L-cancel but is very proficient in the above would easily win a Melee tournament (though I wouldn't be surprised if they could make it out of pools) but that a less consistent L-canceler (lol) would have the advantage over a much more consistent one if they had an edge in the aspects mentioned above.

Better remove fast falling while we're on the topic of "improving" Smash Bros.

Why? There are many scenarios where staying in the air for a longer period of time is advantageous for the player. For example, pressuring the opponent with multiple aerials and avoiding an anti-air or an early shieldgrab.

 

[LancerStaff]

lol shoryuken and hadouken inputs are harder than l cancelling. they're all simple and become muscle memory with time and practice. its fun to learn.

Would anybody want automatic Hadoukens that fire off every moment possible? No, because you could do something else with it's own pros and cons. People do want automatic L-canceling because there's no other option. It's essentially automatic for any halfway decent player. Why not just make it completely automatic? Just because it adds some fraction of skill? Either it's easy, or it takes skill to use. And either way, it's existence is flawed.

 

[Renji64]

Sure.

- spacing/footsies
- shield pressure/stabbing
- frame traps
- efficient movement
- knowledge of moveset properties
- knowledge of stage properties
- techasing
- edgeguarding
- recovering
- offensive and defensive DI
- knownledge of which combos work on a given character at a given damage percentage
- intangibles (mindgames)

As you can see, there are over a dozen skill and experience-based aspects of Smash that would remain intact if landing lag was simply cut down across the board. I would also argue that most, if not all of the above are much more crucial to winning at a high level than being extremely consistent with your L-cancels. What I mean by this is not that a player who cannot L-cancel but is very proficient in the above would easily win a Melee tournament (though I wouldn't be surprised if they could make it out of pools) but that a less consistent L-canceler (lol) would have the advantage over a much more consistent one if they had an edge in the aspects mentioned above.

Why? There are many scenarios where staying in the air for a longer period of time is advantageous for the player. For example, pressuring the opponent with multiple aerials and avoiding an anti-air or an early shieldgrab.

Most of those come naturally but i understand your point.

 

[Vkrm]

This isn't as hard to compensate for. Even high profile players have said it's not that hard to do it with hitlag.

Doesn't need to be particularly difficult to prove my point.

There still isn't any reason to not do it, AKA most people's biggest complaint with L-canceling.

It is most people's problem with l canceling which makes the fact that its not true really funny. Ness can back air ganons shield and if chooses not to cancel he'll dip down lower than his crouch. Then you can punish whiffed shield grabs.

 

[Vkrm]

Double post

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

It is most people's problem with l canceling which makes the fact that its not true really funny. Ness can back air ganons shield and if chooses not to cancel he'll dip down lower than his crouch. Then you can punish whiffed shield grabs.

Like I said, fringe rare cases it matters. Still not worth keeping.

 

[Ulevo]

Why? There are many scenarios where staying in the air for a longer period of time is advantageous for the player. For example, pressuring the opponent with multiple aerials and avoiding an anti-air or an early shieldgrab.

I was being a smart ass.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

There is a problem, which I've said three times already.

It doesn't offer gameplay. It rewards technical skill but not good gameplay, because it lacks gameplay or decision making. This is where wavedashing succeeds and L canceling fails.

You don't need to make something hard just cause, in a fighting game. You can if it can lead to something with plays, mix-ups, combos for different reasons. But Lcanceling really doesn't do any of this. I still think it needs a point other than, making the game harder.

It doesn't add any decisions to using it, that is why it is bad

Well at this point it's just a disagreement about opinion as I think a barrier is OK and not bad, while you think the opposite. Tech skill is something that should have a reward, so adding something such as L cancelling gives people that advantage. I don't think the fact that it does not relate to gameplay makes it bad in anyway. I really don't think there's much else to say.

 

[fabulouspants]

Would anybody want automatic Hadoukens that fire off every moment possible? No, because you could do something else with it's own pros and cons. People do want automatic L-canceling because there's no other option. It's essentially automatic for any halfway decent player. Why not just make it completely automatic? Just because it adds some fraction of skill? Either it's easy, or it takes skill to use. And either way, it's existence is flawed.

we're talking about the motion/input for l cancelling/hadouken not the applications. just cause you can L cancel aerials doesnt mean you want to shoot off shorthop nairs all game.

whats the other option to throwing a fireball? there is no other option other than the "arbitrary"(lol) motion of down downforward forward + Punch.

 

[Fuqua]

So do we know for certain that it's not coming back?

No we don't. We will probably know after e3 though.

 

[LancerStaff]

Doesn't need to be particularly difficult to prove my point.



It is most people's problem with l canceling which makes the fact that its not true really funny. Ness can back air ganons shield and if chooses not to cancel he'll dip down lower than his crouch. Then you can punish whiffed shield grabs.

Easy, now pressing L is an un-cancel. Now we only need to press L in those rare occasions.

we're talking about the motion/input for l cancelling/hadouken not the applications. just cause you can L cancel aerials doesnt mean you want to shoot off shorthop nairs all game.

whats the other option to throwing a fireball? there is no other option other than the "arbitrary"(lol) motion of down downforward forward + Punch.

I said automatic L-cancels, not automatic SH nairs. There's no other option for fireballs because your other options are other moves, such as closing the gap or running away. When in the exact position to L-cancel, what are your options? Falling down normally and L-canceling.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

If aerials were automatically cancelled it would essentially break the game for the "casuals" a lot of you want to cater to. Link is pretty much S tier in low levels of play because they simply do not have the proficiency to deal with such powerful attacks that come out so quickly, such as his down-air; Not nearly enough knowledge to counter it. The stronger characters would be far too "op" if the lag on these attacks were closer to that of much weaker attacks.

Once these players start to get familiar with the game enough to care about L-Cancelling, they are probably past the point of viewing characters like Ganondorf as imbalanced. Now these big-yet-slow attacks are in desperate need of a cut in lag.

I think L-Canceling is a smart way to balance the game at both spectrums.

 

[LancerStaff]

If aerials were automatically cancelled it would essentially break the game for the "casuals" a lot of you want to cater to. Link is pretty much S tier in low levels of play because they simply do not have the proficiency to deal with such powerful attacks that come out so quickly, such as his down-air; Not nearly enough knowledge to counter it. The stronger characters would be far too "op" if the lag on these attacks were closer to that of much weaker attacks.

Once these players start to get familiar with the game enough to care about L-Cancelling, they are probably past the point of viewing characters like Ganondorf as an imbalanced character. Now these big-yet-slow attacks are in desperate need of a cut in lag.

I think L-Canceling is a smart way to balance the game at both spectrums.

Low level players will eventually learn how to deal with it though. 'Sides, low level play is still unbalanced with Kirby and Ike running around.

 

[fabulouspants]

Easy, now pressing L is an un-cancel. Now we only need to press L in those rare occasions.



I said automatic L-cancels, not automatic SH nairs. There's no other option for fireballs because your other options are other moves, such as closing the gap or running away. When in the exact position to L-cancel, what are your options? Falling down normally and L-canceling.

why are you comparing two totally different things? You're comparing the application of hadouken instead of the "arbitrary" motion (down downforward forward + punch) with the motion of L cancel(hitting L 20frames before landing to reduce the lag of an aerial)

 

[LancerStaff]

why are you comparing two totally different things? You're comparing the application of hadouken instead of the "arbitrary" motion (down downforward forward + punch) with the motion of L cancel(hitting L 20frames before landing to reduce the lag of an aerial)

No, I'm comparing the application of L-canceling to the Hadouken. There's precisely one situation you'll use an L-cancel, after a low aerial, and 99.9% of the time you should do it. Whereas the Hadouken can be used in many places, and there's plenty of places you can use it but shouldn't.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Do people really prefer Brawl's method over Melee's? It just helps combos for players that want to play faster. I'd say its better than Brawl's auto cancel. Theres not enough freedom in options for Brawl's auto canceling. L-canceling gives you the freedom to decide when you do you're aerials and fast fall. Theres a specific window of canceling in Brawl. If they just cut down all aerials lag time than that would be cool. But then everyone would just never be open. They'd all be like Marth in Brawl. If theres room for error than it can give players an opportunity to punish. Its all just meh.... I don't care either way. I just like L-canceling more. If its not back I don't really care.

 

[LancerStaff]

Do people really prefer Brawl's method over Melee's? It just helps combos for players that want to play faster. I'd say its better than Brawl's auto cancel. Theres not enough freedom in options for Brawl's auto canceling. L-canceling gives you the freedom to decide when you do you're aerials and fast fall. Theres a specific window of canceling in Brawl. If they just cut down all aerials lag time than that would be cool. But then everyone would just never be open. They'd all be like Marth in Brawl. If theres room for error than it can give players an opportunity to punish. Its all just meh.... I don't care either way. I just like L-canceling more. If its not back I don't really care.

Who said that every attack needs to get it's lag cut down that much?

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Who said that every attack needs to get it's lag cut down that much?

Pshh yea you're right. I guess its just about options. This whole thread isn't going to add up to anything. Its all just a matter of opinion. If you like depth and being able to cut down the lag of an aerial than you can have L-canceling. If you like depth in other areas and don't really care about l-canceling than you can hope that auto-canceling is input better than it was in Brawl. (I really don't like auto-canceling the moves come out too quickly. Exhibit A and B)

 

[TheNin10doUltra]

L-canceling coming back would be fine with me

 

[[TSON]]

There is never a reason to not L-Cancel. It is a dumb mechanic that only serves to make those that are aware of it take a big pile of steaming **** on those that don't... that's the reality of it. We all know deep down Nintendo, the company who made Brawl, won't be bringing it back without either changing how much of an effect it has or making it easier to access. It would make no sense.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Low level players will eventually learn how to deal with it though. 'Sides, low level play is still unbalanced with Kirby and Ike running around.

Yeah, imagine how much of a problem Ike would be for these guys if all his moves were automatically cancelled. He'd be the most hated character ever. L-Cancelling is the better alternative.

 

[J1NG]

I had a few ideas for cancelling.
The first involved simplifying L-Cancelling by taking out the L or R presses required to perform it. In other words, if you wanted to L-Cancel Ganon's forward air into a down air, you would jump, forward air, then press jump instead of L/R as you are about to touch the ground, which would cancel your landing lag(and then you could proceed to down air, whatever).
My other idea involved being able to cancel any attack with any other attack, but only once per combo string. So yes, a limited turbo mode. Of course, I imagine that such a mechanic might require DI to be revamped in order to keep up with it. The only idea I had for that was rewarding consistent, timely smash DI by increasing its effectiveness.
Yeah.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I had a few ideas for cancelling.
The first involved simplifying L-Cancelling by taking out the L or R presses required to perform it. In other words, if you wanted to L-Cancel Ganon's forward air into a down air, you would jump, forward air, then press jump instead of L/R as you are about to touch the ground, which would cancel your landing lag(and then you could proceed to down air, whatever).
My other idea involved being able to cancel any attack with any other attack, but only once per combo string. So yes, a limited turbo mode. Of course, I imagine that such a mechanic might require DI to be revamped in order to keep up with it. The only idea I had for that was rewarding consistent, timely smash DI by increasing its effectiveness.
Yeah.

This is pretty good. I had an idea myself.

What if during the duration of any aerial you can press L or R at any time while the attack is still going on, and when you land on the ground your lag is cut in half. This basically allows you to "store" an L-cancel to take away the timing needed.

For example, you can do Bowsers super long Dair after a double jump, press L or R at any time during the attack, and when you finally land the cancel will happen (assuming it didn't finish before you hit the ground), or if you wanted to do a short hop double fair with Marth you can do Fair, press L or R, and Fair again. Since you already stocked an L-cancel. This way you can utilize the L-cancel in a new way or the old fashion way.

I though of a way to balance it too. If you stick an L-cancel and you land after the aerial was finished, you will get that weird Brawl landing lag (RCO lag I think it's called?), this way if you decide to stick an L -cancel you need to utilize your aerials properly , especially during a full jump. If you have some like MK who can throw out Nairs like no ones business, if they want to cancel it they will have to stock a cancel quickly since you can only stick an L-cancel while the aerial is happening, and if you are utilizing your multiple jumps to space your opponents out you must land with an aerial to get the half landing lag or suffer and take the extended landing lag, so MK will have two strategies assuming he stocked a cancel prematurely: A. Risk getting punished by your aerial upon landing since you don't want to take the extended landing lag (like the opponent running in with a shield grab) B. retreat to a platform and take the extended landing lag, giving your opponent a chance to zone in on you. If you want to do things like Dair camp and run away, you'll have to either space your aerials properly and not stock an L-cancel so you can land by the time the attack ends and land land then run away instantly or do an aerial quickly before you hit the ground to get the half lag from the aerial and potentially get shield grab your have your attacked punished. Multi jump characters won't have overwhelming ground control, leaving characters who are mostly grounded like Link a chance to zone from the ground and use his disjointed attacks and long grab range to pull in an opponent.

These two things insure that just freely space with aerials without having to consider the zoning. If you Full hop Fair zone with Marth, you need to gauge whether or not stock a cancel since you may not even dedicate to doing an additional aerial, so if you Fair, press L or R during the aerial, then decide to air dodge after the aerial (let's say the opponent shielded your Fair and you decided to dodge the shuttle loop), you are going to suffer from the RCO(?) lag, allowing the opponent to punish, so when you approach you must evaluate if you can safely land with auto cancel frames or do the aerial attack just so you can reduce the landing lag, but you can get punished and you would be needlessly making an attack stale. Strategies like Kirby Bairs and wall of pain would be more difficult to implement. This method also encourages the use of L-canceling the old fashion way since when timing it right you wouldn't have this issue, and rewards short hopping aerials as well.

Installing cancels (easy canceling) takes the brainwork out of it, but adds some risks. Regular canceling is harder because you are basically doing the install low to the ground and risking missing it if you don't press it in time, but offers greater benefits.

It's not perfect, but it's just a thought I had.

 

[asd_]

as all of this banter is hilarious and pointless, let me ask you casuals this:

if l-cancelling was in the game, how would it effect you negatively?

chances are your average consumer doesn't even know advanced mechanics exist, I know I didn't when I was a little nub. I didn't even know teching existed.

smash has the liberty of being pickup and playable while having a a massive mechanical skill ceiling. very few games share this trait. there's no reason for smash 4 not have all of melee tech since none of it hinders casual play.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

as all of this banter is hilarious and pointless, let me ask you casuals this:

if l-cancelling was in the game, how would it effect you negatively?

chances are your average consumer doesn't even know advanced mechanics exist, I know I didn't when I was a little nub. I didn't even know teching existed.

smash has the liberty of being pickup and playable while having a a massive mechanical skill ceiling. very few games share this trait. there's no reason for smash 4 not have all of melee tech since none of it hinders casual play.

So the line between casual and competitive can be blurred in favor of faster gameplay.
...
OH SHI- *Dives behind flame proof bunker for daring to want low level and high level gameplay closer together.*

 

[asd_]

So the line between casual and competitive can be blurred in favor of faster gameplay.
...
OH SHI- *Dives behind flame proof bunker for daring to want low level and high level gameplay closer together.*

so you're telling me most casual players are aware of advanced techniques? and that a casual player will grind for hours being able to tech, lcancel, wavedash on spot, etc?

if your argument is for shorter landing lag, chances are most casuals cant and wont capitalize on a missed l cancel, so it really doesn't matter

when i was a little nub i still preferred melee because it was faster; not even including techniques such as those above melee was inherently faster and smoother.

so stop with your ****ty analogies

tldr my first post, having advanced tech doesnt increase skill floor; it doesnt effect casual play, there's no reason to not have most advanced tech

as far as i know melee outsold brawl when talking percentages by a large margin so yeah​