L-Canceling

[LancerStaff]

Well none of that is true at all. L- canceling doesn't fly in the face of SSB's simplicity at all. Neither does wave dashing, DI, or any other advanced tech. SSB works because its similar to an onion. Very simple for a player to pick up and play but has depth to it. Other layers that can be discovered and nurtured if you take the time to invest yourself. It absolutely adds something to the game. I'll use the most obvious example. Play with link in melee. Perform a dair without hitting an opponent. Now perform that same move and L-cancel. The lag without L-cancing is substantial. L-canceling that move allows you to quickly go on the offensive or defensive without being completely open to attack -- or in other words -- L-canceling makes aerials safer (not safe, but safer) to perform...

I disagree. Most techs are completely opposite of what SSB was supposed to be: A fighting game minus the arbitrarily hard and unintuitive commands mixed with many elements of party games. Just compare "normal" attacks' commands to an attack out of a Wavedash. A Wavedash adds an extra three imputs. L-canceling adds one, and must be done after practically every aerial. Yes, it makes Link's dair more usable. So? Who's to say it was supposed too be that usable in the first place? Heck, why was L-canceling even added in the first place? We can't tell if they added it to make SSB more competitive or for some other bizarre reason unless Sakurai says so, and I doubt he will.

So in short, I believe techs are mudding up SSB because they're moving the games squarely back to what they were trying not to be: Hyper-competitive games with high learning curves.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I just came here to watch D-idara get **** on.

 

[mimgrim]

So in short, I believe techs are mudding up SSB because they're moving the games squarely back to what they were trying not to be: Hyper-competitive games with high learning curves.

SSB is meant to be simple to learn but hard to master.

This means low skill floor but high skill ceiling. All SSBs have had this for the most part. Melee is really only a high floor when it comes to Fox/Falco in all honesty. L-cancel, Wavedash, DI, Power/Perfect Shielding, ect... are all relatively easy to learn, they really aren't as complex as I've seen you make tech be out to be. However, with the exception of L-cancel (which is easy to master as well as learn), they aren't exactly easy to master, WD has various lengths and you have to know how to use it ect..

So I don;t see how they actually go against what SSB stands for.

 

[LancerStaff]

SSB is meant to be simple to learn but hard to master.

This means low skill floor but high skill ceiling. All SSBs have had this for the most part. Melee is really only a high floor when it comes to Fox/Falco in all honesty. L-cancel, Wavedash, DI, Power/Perfect Shielding, ect... are all relatively easy to learn, they really aren't as complex as I've seen you make tech be out to be. However, with the exception of L-cancel (which is easy to master as well as learn), they aren't exactly easy to master, WD has various lengths and you have to know how to use it ect..

So I don;t see how they actually go against what SSB stands for.

You see, I guess I call different things techs then most do. I wouldn't call DI and PSing techs. Wavedashing and DACUSing would be. L-canceling... I wouldn't call it a tech, but it definitely doesn't feel like it belongs either.

 

[Celestis]

I think it would be kinda neat if they added a penalty for missing a L-cancel. Lick risk reward kind of thing. If you hit it, you have have the lag reduced, but if you miss, you have it doubled. Or maybe even the closer you cancel to the ground, the more frames taken off the landing lag. So you get rewarded for good timing.

Ether way, I just want the L cancel to return. I love the way it feels. It feels so proper and right to impact the ground with the triggers. I hate when its not there.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

I would support auto canceling, but landing animations are part of the game, and Link's Dair would look hella weird if you just canceled it all of the time without any external influence. Smash isn't a traditional fighter where you can cancel frames and it appears to be normal, it is programmed with fluid movements for everything, but there are some exceptions like Fox's shine, but that doesn't appear as abysmal as canceling Link's Dair in 64, which is why I feel like Melee's L-Cancel was best because it made sense.

L-canceling does add depth; it's your risk / reward benefactor. The way I see it using a short hop aerial is an offensive extension to your ground strings, but there is always the risk you take of possibly missing an L-Cancel whether it's a technical flub or you hit a shield and didn't time the cancel right. The same thing applies to zoning. If you have the game where you can repeatedly rush down and zone without a technical barrier then well...you get Meta Knight. And while it wouldn't be bad if every character were as nearly as good as him, not every characters offensive strategy functions the same as his.

Honestly, L-Canceling isn't that hard. When I see someone complain about Smash's techs all I see is "I don't want to practice to get better" and "Doing what I already learned at a faster pace is so hard! It needs to go."

 

[mimgrim]

You see, I guess I call different things techs then most do. I wouldn't call DI and PSing techs. Wavedashing and DACUSing would be. L-canceling... I wouldn't call it a tech, but it definitely doesn't feel like it belongs either.

1. That in no way helps your argument

2. with the exception of DI (which I only included because of the post you quoted), those are all commonly referred to as ATs. Whether you consider them to be or not is irrelevant. They are ATs and have been called that for years to where at this point it is fact and not opinion.

 

[Zulyar]

you actualy can l cancel in brawl, the time frame of doing it is much smaller though, so small you cant reliably do it, i cant anyway, that said i still would prefer l canceling to not be in the game and earial lag being gone, ala auto l cancel, no silly extra imput needed.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

you actualy can l cancel in brawl, the time frame of doing it is much smaller though, so small you cant reliably do it, i cant anyway, that said i still would prefer l canceling to not be in the game and earial lag being gone, ala auto l cancel, no silly extra imput needed.

Is there a video of L-canceling in Brawl?

 

[Second Power]

you actualy can l cancel in brawl, the time frame of doing it is much smaller though, so small you cant reliably do it, i cant anyway, that said i still would prefer l canceling to not be in the game and earial lag being gone, ala auto l cancel, no silly extra imput needed.

Are you sure you don't mean Auto-Canceling (where you land during the ending frames of an aerial which cancels it)?

 

[viewtifulduck82]

L-canceling, is a pointless tech barrier. Techs are cool, and it's fine to want to practice to get better at a game. So techs are not bad. The problem with L-canceling is that it's something you mindlessly do. Think to yourself, is there ever a time where you SHOULDN'T L-cancel...? Nope, not really. So basically, you train yourself to mindlessly mash the L button when you land. There are no disadvantages to using it, so you will always do it. If there were disadvantages to doing it, or even advantages for not doing it, It would be perfectly fine. Face it, there would be no real difference between a universal decrease in landing lag, and you always L-canceling. So a universal over haul is the better choice. Once again, techs are cool, but not when they serve no other purpose other than to add an extra input for you to throw out. they need to have depth.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

L-canceling, is a pointless tech barrier. Techs are cool, and it's fine to want to practice to get better at a game. So techs are not bad. The problem with L-canceling is that it's something you mindlessly do. Think to yourself, is there ever a time where you SHOULDN'T L-cancel...? Nope, not really. So basically, you train yourself to mindlessly mash the L button when you land. There are no disadvantages to using it, so you will always do it. If there were disadvantages to doing it, or even advantages for not doing it, It would be perfectly fine. Face it, there would be no real difference between a universal decrease in landing lag, and you always L-canceling. So a universal over haul is the better choice. Once again, techs are cool, but not when they serve no other purpose other than to add an extra input for you to throw out. they need to have depth.

You're making a carbon copy of the same vague sentiment towards L-Canceling.

Doing something without thinking? Why should that be a reason for its exclusion. Are you constantly aware that you are breathing? You can say that towards nearly anything.

L-Canceling isn't a useless tech barrier because it does something that isn't possible without the required input. A useless tech would be having to press z+x then down+L+Y to jump.

Edit: I just wanted to add something. I feel like that enabling auto canceling would have the same desired effect as L-Canceling, the difference is that one is a much lazier idea.

I feel like that if I can learn something to the point in where I will eventually be able to do it without thinking, then that's a sign of solid game design, because I still have the choice of not doing it, and while there may be no clear visible benefit to not L-canceling, there could be such a way for certain aspects, like how if you L-cancel a Dair (or auto cancel in Brawl) with Pikachu you don't get the second hit of the attack.

I don't think everyone would like to be forced to cancel aerials. After all, no one liked the fact that every time you attack you are forced to trip. Even though it's not the same as canceling an aerial, having the option to turn off tripping would have appealed to everyone, same as having the option to cancel the lag on an aerial.

Also, for an idea on how I use a missed L-cancel, I'll SH Dair with Marth and not L-cancel to bait out a SH Laser approach since Marth's Dair landing animation ducks under them.

 

[D-idara]

L-Cancelling's a silly input barrier, why would you want something that forces people to

 

[Cap'nChreest]

Does Brawl have auto-canceling?

 

[SKM_NeoN]

I always instinctively attempt an L-Cancel in Brawl. It just feels RIGHT! That's all the reason I need to support it, sue me.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

You're making a carbon copy of the same vague sentiment towards L-Canceling.

Doing something without thinking? Why should that be a reason for its exclusion. Are you constantly aware that you are breathing? You can say that towards nearly anything.

L-Canceling isn't a useless tech barrier because it does something that isn't possible without the required input. A useless tech would be having to press z+x then down+L+Y to jump.

Edit: I just wanted to add something. I feel like that enabling auto canceling would have the same desired effect as L-Canceling, the difference is that one is a much lazier idea.

I feel like that if I can learn something to the point in where I will eventually be able to do it without thinking, then that's a sign of solid game design, because I still have the choice of not doing it, and while there may be no clear visible benefit to not L-canceling, there could be such a way for certain aspects, like how if you L-cancel a Dair (or auto cancel in Brawl) with Pikachu you don't get the second hit of the attack.

I don't think everyone would like to be forced to cancel aerials. After all, no one liked the fact that every time you attack you are forced to trip. Even though it's not the same as canceling an aerial, having the option to turn off tripping would have appealed to everyone, same as having the option to cancel the lag on an aerial.

Also, for an idea on how I use a missed L-cancel, I'll SH Dair with Marth and not L-cancel to bait out a SH Laser approach since Marth's Dair landing animation ducks under them.

See, the problem here is that you would never know if you were forced into canceling, because you aren't canceling anything. Hell, if it had never existed, no one would have ever suggested a thing, because it would be deemed pointless. There are no negatives to simply having a set landing lag for all moves, at an albeit shorter time frame. The only difference is that you have one less button to press. Unless it's changed to have shortcomings, or there are advantages to not doing it, it's a bad mechanic. Almost like if you had to continuously press the X button to keep your character breathing.

 

[Second Power]

But... But... If you remove L-canceling and simply have less landing lag, then SHFFL loses its snazy name

 

[Ulevo]

I disagree. Most techs are completely opposite of what SSB was supposed to be: A fighting game minus the arbitrarily hard and unintuitive commands mixed with many elements of party games. Just compare "normal" attacks' commands to an attack out of a Wavedash. A Wavedash adds an extra three imputs. L-canceling adds one, and must be done after practically every aerial. Yes, it makes Link's dair more usable. So? Who's to say it was supposed too be that usable in the first place? Heck, why was L-canceling even added in the first place? We can't tell if they added it to make SSB more competitive or for some other bizarre reason unless Sakurai says so, and I doubt he will.

So in short, I believe techs are mudding up SSB because they're moving the games squarely back to what they were trying not to be: Hyper-competitive games with high learning curves.

You don't need developer confirmation on a technique that was purposely put in to the game for its intended use. What does L-Cancelling do? It halves your landing lag. Was it put in intentionally? Yeah? Well I'd assume its there to halve your landing lag. See how smart I am.

The game is competitive because it is a fun, interactive, engaging and spectator friendly game that has fostered a passionate following, not because it has L-Cancelling in it, or because it has a thing or two in common with other traditional competitive games. The silliness of this argument is that what people have a problem with is not that competitive games have high learning curves, but that their entry level to play at baseline is too high. The reason Smash is so successful is because it has such a wide audience to draw from and caters to so many people, and that's only because it has one of the most user friendly entry level skill requirements out of any fighting game. It also has the added benefit of being one of the most complex, deep, intuitive, and intricate fighting games in history without ruining the player experience at the beginner level.

Yet for some reason spoiled children who don't even care about the other spectrum of players who play this game competitively seem to believe that their player base is the only one that matters, and it is perfectly fine to ignore and remove the elements that not only help improve the other player experience, but that also happily coexist with with all players.

 

[Muster]

It really all comes down to Sakurai's thoughts on the mechanic. He removed it from brawl as another way to simplify the game, but will he add it back to sm4sh, being the middle ground that it is?

I trust that Sakurai had intentions with the mechanic that we can't quite understand, and i also trust that if he implements it or not, he has his own valid reasoning for doing so. (won't stop me from instinctively L cancelling though)

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

See, the problem here is that you would never know if you were forced into canceling, because you aren't canceling anything. Hell, if it had never existed, no one would have ever suggested a thing, because it would be deemed pointless. There are no negatives to simply having a set landing lag for all moves, at an albeit shorter time frame. The only difference is that you have one less button to press. Unless it's changed to have shortcomings, or there are advantages to not doing it, it's a bad mechanic. Almost like if you had to continuously press the X button to keep your character breathing.

This is all hypothetical. L-Canceling exists.

There is a negative to having the same landing lag on all aerials, it would look weird. I shouldn't be able to SH Dair as fast as Fox can SHFFL Nair in Melee. This isn't a traditional fighter where aerial attacks just cancel it out.

And also, I would be aware if I was forced to L-Cancel because I can visibly see a sped up animation.

And tapping X to keep your character alive is not even close to L-Canceling. Last time I checked you don't die if miss an L-Cancel.

 

[ImaClubYou]

New mechanic. If you press L/R/Z(?) at the right time you get a successful L-Cancel. If you mistime it, your lag doubles :]

 

[viewtifulduck82]

This is all hypothetical. L-Canceling exists.

There is a negative to having the same landing lag on all aerials, it would look weird. I shouldn't be able to SH Dair as fast as Fox can SHFFL Nair in Melee. This isn't a traditional fighter where aerial attacks just cancel it out.

And also, I would be aware if I was forced to L-Cancel because I can visibly see a sped up animation.

And tapping X to keep your character alive. You don't die if miss an L-Cancel.

I think you're missing my point. You would never know it was sped up, because it would be the standard. You would never notice anything, because there would be nothing to notice. Think of it like this. Imagine fox's d-air L-canceled landing lag, was the standard landing lag. next, imagine L-canceling didn't exist. Is there such a problem that L-canceling isn't present anymore, now that the move naturally recovers at a quick pace? you would never know that it was "sped up" because the slower "un-canceled" version doesn't exist. Does that make any more sense?

 

[mimgrim]

Does Brawl have auto-canceling?

Yes. Yes it does.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Yes. Yes it does.

ohhhh, so what I've been describing was actually already implemented in brawl?

 

[skstylez]

I sure know that I do not want anything that requires any form of learning or practice. It is a party-game for muh.

 

[mimgrim]

ohhhh, so what I've been describing was actually already implemented in brawl?

Auoto-cancel is in both Brawl and Melee.

It is triggered by landing in the beginning or ending of an aerials animation. However some moves can't be , I think the only 2 are DK's and Ganondorf's Fairs. It also has the benefit of giving 0 lag, like a Z-cancel, as opposed to just half less that a regular L-cancel gives. But it's not a totally reliable mechanic like L-cancel is.

As if it is what you are describing. I have no idea because I haven't bother reading most of your posts because they seem rather bad.

 

[Cap'nChreest]

ohhhh, so what I've been describing was actually already implemented in brawl?

Yes except it was only for certain aerials and you couldn't fast fall some of them.


I'd much rather have l-canceling than what Brawl had. L-canceling works for all aerials and you could fast fall them. Braw had an iffy system where you couldn't fast fall some aerials or you had to immediately aerial instead of waiting a little. There was lag depending on the timing of the jump and the input. Some of them can't even be canceled. L-canceling is better imo. It gives more options than auto-canceling.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

ohhhh, so what I've been describing was actually already implemented in brawl?

The TV represents your credibility.

 

[Ulevo]

Yes except it was only for certain aerials and you couldn't fast fall some of them.


I'd much rather have l-canceling than what Brawl had. L-canceling works for all aerials and you could fast fall them. Braw had an iffy system where you couldn't fast fall some aerials or you had to immediately aerial instead of waiting a little. There was lag depending on the timing of the jump and the input. Some of them can't even be canceled. L-canceling is better imo. It gives more options than auto-canceling.

I wouldn't call that a "system." I'd call that inconsistent programming by the development team.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Auoto-cancel is in both Brawl and Melee.

It is triggered by landing in the beginning or ending of an aerials animation. However some moves can't be , I think the only 2 are DK's and Ganondorf's Fairs. It also has the benefit of giving 0 lag, like a Z-cancel, as opposed to just half less that a regular L-cancel gives. But it's not a totally reliable mechanic like L-cancel is.

As if it is what you are describing. I have no idea because I haven't bother reading most of your posts because they seem rather bad.

...Well I apologize for my inferior posting skills then >.>
I guess I'm suggesting that aerials just have lessened lag in general, to the point where L-canceling wouldn't be necessary anymore. It would speed up the pace of the game, and would basically be the same as you perfectly L-canceling every time.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Think to yourself, is there ever a time where you SHOULDN'T L-cancel...? Nope, not really. So basically, you train yourself to mindlessly mash the L button when you land. There are no disadvantages to using it, so you will always do it.

Multi-hit aerials. Take Roy's Nair in Project M for example. L-cancelling Roy's Nair will almost always remove the third hit of the attack. There are situations where the player may want that third strike and thus should not L-cancel. There you go, that's one example.

Anyway now for my thoughts on the topic, rather than arguing someone else's. For what it's worth, I find fastfalling harder to consistently do than L-cancelling.

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Multi-hit aerials. Take Roy's Nair in Project M for example. L-cancelling Roy's Nair will almost always remove the third hit of the attack. There are situations where the player may want that third strike and thus should not L-cancel. There you go, that's one example.

Anyway now for my thoughts on the topic, rather than arguing someone else's. For what it's worth, I find fastfalling harder to consistently do than L-cancelling.

Thank you, I learned something new today.

 

[Ulevo]

Multi-hit aerials. Take Roy's Nair in Project M for example. L-cancelling Roy's Nair will almost always remove the third hit of the attack. There are situations where the player may want that third strike and thus should not L-cancel. There you go, that's one example.

Anyway now for my thoughts on the topic, rather than arguing someone else's. For what it's worth, I find fastfalling harder to consistently do than L-cancelling.

Better remove fast falling while we're on the topic of "improving" Smash Bros.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Better remove fast falling while we're on the topic of "improving" Smash Bros.

I'm sure this comment was in jest but just to clear up any confusion that may arise, I want fast-felling kept in the game. I was simply making a comparison that shows how easy I find L-cancelling to be.

 

[Ulevo]

I'm sure this comment was in jest but just to clear up any confusion that may arise, I want fast-felling kept in the game. I was simply making a comparison that shows how easy I find L-cancelling to be.

Oh no, the jab isn't at you. I'm just kinda pointing out the silliness of the entire conversation.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

L-Cancelling's a silly input barrier, why would you want something that forces people to

Forces people to what? If you mean learn something new that is not needed, it helps with the competitive/party aspect of the game. Not L cancelling slows down the game surely, so it would be easier to the average player. But if you want to go that extra mile and get competitive, it's a good way to quicken your play, allows for more combos, etc.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Forces people to what? If you mean learn something new that is not needed, it helps with the competitive/party aspect of the game. Not L cancelling slows down the game surely, so it would be easier to the average player. But if you want to go that extra mile and get competitive, it's a good way to quicken your play, allows for more combos, etc.

There is no gameplay with it, nor any decision making.

"Do I want more or less lag?" It's a false choice. If you let characters have the same lag without needing the L-Cancel, not a whole lot would change other than the tech barrier not being there.

I think it's bad game design, if you want to add tech skill to a game. It should lead to something you can do with it, aka wavedashing. Which has applications and gameplay with it.

There is none with L-Canceling, and this is still why I think readding it in PM was an awful idea. It was done for traditionalism rather than actual game design.

 

[Tails_Glados_Puff]

There is no gameplay with it, nor any decision making.

"Do I want more or less lag?" It's a false choice. If you let characters have the same lag without needing the L-Cancel, not a whole lot would change other than the tech barrier not being there.

I think it's bad game design, if you want to add tech skill to a game. It should lead to something you can do with it, aka wavedashing. Which has applications and gameplay with it.

There is none with L-Canceling, and this is still why I think readding it in PM was an awful idea.

I'm not stating that It's a good game design, it's just not a bad one. There is no reason to add it, and we can't understand what goes in Sakurai's head. The thing is, it's not necessarily a bad choice imo.

This is because even with it being there, there's a minor tech skill gap that is easily bypassed and really doesn't affect the game negatively. I have yet to see anything necessarily wrong about it, you just state that it is not needed.

"I think it's bad game design, if you want to add tech skill to a game. It should lead to something you can do with it, aka wavedashing. Which has applications and gameplay with it." It adds plenty to the game, such as a better combing system. A simple pillar with Falco for example would be impossible without L cancelling.

This idea that L cancelling is bad because of it's tech skill barrier is no worse than wavedashing. Sakurai, if he wanted to, could easily make a wavedash button optional. We already have customization with our button inputs in brawl. A wavedash button would decrease the tech skill needed and would not change the gameplay negatively. Why is it that wavedashing should not be scrapped with a wavedashing button? It eliminates a tech skill gap and decreases nothing from the gameplay experience.

 

[mimgrim]

A simple pillar with Falco for example would be impossible without L cancelling..

Technically that isn't true for what most people suggest when taking out L-cancel. When most people talk about taking out L-cancel they mean to reduce the landing lag to equal that of an L-canceled aerial.

In essence you would get the same results as you do with L-cancel without the tech barrier and the very occasional missed L-cancel, but everything you could do with an L-cancel would transition over, like Falco's pillars.

That's the main gist of it anyway.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I'm not stating that It's a good game design, it's just not a bad one. There is no reason to add it, and we can't understand what goes in Sakurai's head. The thing is, it's not necessarily a bad choice imo.

This is because even with it being there, there's a minor tech skill gap that is easily bypassed and really doesn't affect the game negatively. I have yet to see anything necessarily wrong about it, you just state that it is not needed.

"I think it's bad game design, if you want to add tech skill to a game. It should lead to something you can do with it, aka wavedashing. Which has applications and gameplay with it." It adds plenty to the game, such as a better combing system. A simple pillar with Falco for example would be impossible without L cancelling.

This idea that L cancelling is bad because of it's tech skill barrier is no worse than wavedashing. Sakurai, if he wanted to, could easily make a wavedash button optional. We already have customization with our button inputs in brawl. A wavedash button would decrease the tech skill needed and would not change the gameplay negatively. Why is it that wavedashing should not be scrapped with a wavedashing button? It eliminates a tech skill gap and decreases nothing from the gameplay experience.

L-Canceling really doesn't add anything other than the barrier. If you let people have their lag cut in half, same combo system would still exist. If you removed it and did this, then you would have the same game just easier.

Even with customization with your controller, making it so it auto wavedashes for you doesn't really work. This is also is a no-no even other fighting games where having a hotkey button to do this for you gets you DQ'd. You need to change your directional input for how far you go and which direction you go/etc.

The difference between L-Canceling and Wavedashing in terms of gameplay is pretty large, without L-canceling but giving characters their aireal endlag if they had always L-Cancelled, wouldn't change gameplay. Removing Wavedashing would change a lot more and there isn't a kind of way to make it similar to this.

What I am saying is,

L-Canceling is a tech barrier that in turn, really doesn't add gameplay to smash and has a pretty clear way to keep it the same while removing it.

Wavedashing is a tech that actually adds to mobility and has gameplay interaction with actual decision making and choices.