L-Canceling

[Phan7om]

The infamous l-cancel. I understand both (or really all 3) sides to it coming back. IMO, it doesnt need to be in the game... just low landing lag does. If everyone had Brawl Samus landing lag it would be fine. As a smasher who enjoys Melee far beyond any of the other games, I completely understand why you would want l-cancelling in, rewarding people for putting in that extra time they deserve... but lets be real here, Why do you really want l-cancelling in?

[Side 1: Against] At a high level, people hit their l-cancels 99.9% of the time, so just making it automatic isnt really a big deal since it would be relatively the same. Do you need this technical barrier to play at a low level?, meaning do you need l-cancel to be in so you can beat the person who cant? Really? You cant just win based on your skill and knowledge of the game?

[Side 2: For] On the other side I see that l-cancel should be in to reward the competitive player who know about it and put in their extra time to perfect it. Even at a high level that .1% is your chance to punish. It keeps your opponent on their toes. And plus, its not really that hard to do, just press L (or R or Z) when you land with an aerial. Melee had it, 64 had it kinda, and they were both great games.

[Side 3: Cant] Then there is the "I dont really want it in because its too hard and unnecessary to do when you are thinking about the match" Even tho I disagree, I completely understand this. Say there was a tech where you had to Hit the C-stick down 4 times, press up-taunt 6 times, and alternate Y and X 5 times, all under 4 frames... and it cut the ending lag for a smash. It seems absurd if you think about it. Thats how they feel. It gets really un enjoyable when you want to get into a competitive scene and people talk about these "advanced techniques" that, to them, seem a lot harder than the payoff, making it completely worthless to learn. But hey, sorry to tell ya, thats competitive... well... anything.

So real rap, did you answer the question? You should have? If all aerials had low landing lag it would be fine imo. How I see it is (since im with Side 1) that extra technical barrier called l-cancel doesnt need to be in since it really doesnt matter at high level play anyways. The only reason I would see it would be preferred over not having it would be that the game would be too easy and noob friendly...(which is one of my concerns with some Melee players thoughts on PM, but thats a different story) which shouldnt matter since you should be beating someone who probably couldnt l-cancel anyway.

 

[mimgrim]

The infamous l-cancel. I understand both (or really all 3) sides to it coming back. IMO, it doesnt need to be in the game... just low landing lag does. If everyone had Brawl Samus landing lag it would be fine. As a smasher who enjoys Melee far beyond any of the other games, I completely understand why you would want l-cancelling in, rewarding people for putting in that extra time they deserve... but lets be real here, Why do you really want l-cancelling in?

[Side 1: Against] At a high level, people hit their l-cancels 99.9% of the time, so just making it automatic isnt really a big deal since it would be relatively the same. Do you need this technical barrier to play at a low level?, meaning do you need l-cancel to be in so you can beat the person who cant? Really? You cant just win based on your skill and knowledge of the game?

[Side 2: For] On the other side I see that l-cancel should be in to reward the competitive player who know about it and put in their extra time to perfect it. Even at a high level that .1% is your chance to punish. It keeps your opponent on their toes. And plus, its not really that hard to do, just press L (or R or Z) when you land with an aerial. Melee had it, 64 had it kinda, and they were both great games.

[Side 3: Cant] Then there is the "I dont really want it in because its too hard and unnecessary to do when you are thinking about the match" Even tho I disagree, I completely understand this. Say there was a tech where you had to Hit the C-stick down 4 times, press up-taunt 6 times, and alternate Y and X 5 times, all under 4 frames... and it cut the ending lag for a smash. It seems absurd if you think about it. Thats how they feel. It gets really un enjoyable when you want to get into a competitive scene and people talk about these "advanced techniques" that, to them, seem a lot harder than the payoff, making it completely worthless to learn. But hey, sorry to tell ya, thats competitive... well... anything.

So real rap, did you answer the question? You should have? If all aerials had low landing lag it would be fine imo. How I see it is (since im with Side 1) that extra technical barrier called l-cancel doesnt need to be in since it really doesnt matter at high level play anyways. The only reason I would see it would be preferred over not having it would be that the game would be too easy and noob friendly...(which is one of my concerns with some Melee players thoughts on PM, but thats a different story) which shouldnt matter since you should be beating someone who probably couldnt l-cancel anyway.

[Side 4: Doesn't give a ****] The side that is fine with the mechanic, but really wouldn't mind if it was removed. Doesn't find the mechanic hard or rewarding but at the same time doesn't really have a problem with it either. Sees the mechanic as just there, neither for good or bad.

Although I feel like the only person in this thread who is totally neutral to it. xD

 

[Phan7om]

[Side 4: Doesn't give a ****] The side that is fine with the mechanic, but really wouldn't mind if it was removed. Doesn't find the mechanic hard or rewarding but at the same time doesn't really have a problem with it either. Sees the mechanic as just there, neither for good or bad.

Although I feel like the only person in this thread who is totally neutral to it. xD

True, there is a side 4 lmao. I gues I can fall into both Side 1 and 4. I see why it actually shouldnt be in the game, but i dont really care becaues ive been playing Melee for a while and can do them just fine.

 

[D-idara]

Complaining about the game being noob-friendly just makes people come off as etilist assholes who want to add a few more inches of height to their high horses.

 

[yume_nikki]

I'm not trying to hate but anyone who thinks L-cancelling is "too technical for smash" hasn't played a real technical fighting game.

"Real technical fighting games" rarely have techniques with zero strategic value. And if they have, you cannot spam those techniques all the time to dramatically improve your combo potential and even your neutral game.

 

[Riposte__]

Smash is more technical then most fighting games as you need far more precise movement with how fast and free the game allows you to move, and that movement options are far more varied then a streetfighter or a blazblu, and is at the very least, on par with Tekken.

 

[Halfhead]

Wanting Smash to be a "technical game" really doesn't add anything to L-canceling's case. Technicallity should increase how often players think on their feet. L-canceling isn't like this because you should always just do it.

An appropriate allegory would be the game Banjo-Kazooie, a 3D platformer where you aquire more moves as you progress. An appropriate use of technicallity would be learning a hard to pull off move that would occasionally have to do to beat levels. What the equivilent of L-canceling would be is have to press R and Z simultaneously everytime you took a step to prevent you from tripping for no reason.

Technicallity that adds stratagy, depth, and raises the skill cap is fine by me. In fact, I really hope that this game has a lot of that. L-canceling doesn't do any of the three and is mostly just a way for noobs to be even more alienated from the idea of becoming better at the game.

 

[Road Death Wheel]

I'm not trying to hate but anyone who thinks L-cancelling is "too technical for smash" hasn't played a real technical fighting game.

Real fighting games don't have useless mechanics.

 

[Muster]

I've thought about it for a long time now, and these are my thoughts on the matter.

1.L-cancelling is a follow-up. An action that increases the effectiveness of a previous action. In this case, aerials are more effective when they are L cancelled near the ground. A follow up is taught often in games like baseball and football, because no matter how unnecessary it seems, it increases the effectiveness of the action prior as well as the next action (be it running to a base or jumping for another aerial). It also brings a slight element of realism to the game, as hitting L before hitting the ground is the equivalent of bracing yourself for the impact, which will reduce the recovery time from said impact.

2.Landing lag is a punishment for using an aerial too close to the ground, but following this up with an L-cancel reduces the punishment by half. Simply put, L cancelling is a privilege of reduced punishment. This privilege was removed in brawl because the game was simplified, and aerial combat was emphasized, so an incentive to not attack near the ground would be to take away the reduced punishment for doing so.

3.L cancelling seems to be a necessity because reduced punishment is a necessity. This is why people will rarely do things like roll and spot dodge, because the punishment for these actions can be severe, L cancelling is rather doing something to not be punished rather than not doing something punishable often. It's an extra precaution, like locking your doors, planning ahead, or double checking something. Of course you will have an advantage over people who do not do these things, but does that mean that you shouldn't be able to do it?

4. There's really no reason to not do a lot of things. There's no reason not to take advantage of shield broken foe if you can, there's no reason not to recover from off stage if you want to win, and there's no reason not to L cancel if you aren't trading attacks or using an attack (like Roy's or Link's) that loses a hit when L cancelled.

5. The "barriers" caused by L cancelling are far smaller than any barriers in other games or even smash itself. You can L cancel 100% of the time and get bodied (see:m2k's early years), or you can l cancel and still win matches. (see: BORP)

6. Everyone seems to forget one single very important thing. This cancelling mechanic was intentionally added to smash bros. Whether it be for reason i listed or reasons unknown, this was a conscious decision by the developers to include this mechanic in the game.

7. Not wanting a mechanic in is like not wanting a character in. You may think a character like Roy is an unnecessary clone, but he has fans that want him to come back in sm4sh, and people who really don't care either way. (Like mimgrim's stance on this topic) You can have your opinions, but trying to push them on others really isn't the right way to be doing this.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

I can take or leave L-cancelling. Doubt it will be in Smash 4 though.

 

[RODO]

Complaining about the game being noob-friendly just makes people come off as etilist *******s who want to add a few more inches of height to their high horses.

I think people just don't want the game watered down

"Real technical fighting games" rarely have techniques with zero strategic value. And if they have, you cannot spam those techniques all the time to dramatically improve your combo potential and even your neutral game.

But you can't spam it because you get penalized for mashing it repeatedly (like not being able to do anything for a second) so you actually have to time it right with a single press.

 

[LancerStaff]

I've thought about it for a long time now, and these are my thoughts on the matter.

1.L-cancelling is a follow-up. An action that increases the effectiveness of a previous action. In this case, aerials are more effective when they are L cancelled near the ground. A follow up is taught often in games like baseball and football, because no matter how unnecessary it seems, it increases the effectiveness of the action prior as well as the next action (be it running to a base or jumping for another aerial). It also brings a slight element of realism to the game, as hitting L before hitting the ground is the equivalent of bracing yourself for the impact, which will reduce the recovery time from said impact.

2.Landing lag is a punishment for using an aerial too close to the ground, but following this up with an L-cancel reduces the punishment by half. Simply put, L cancelling is a privilege of reduced punishment. This privilege was removed in brawl because the game was simplified, and aerial combat was emphasized, so an incentive to not attack near the ground would be to take away the reduced punishment for doing so.

3.L cancelling seems to be a necessity because reduced punishment is a necessity. This is why people will rarely do things like roll and spot dodge, because the punishment for these actions can be severe, L cancelling is rather doing something to not be punished rather than not doing something punishable often. It's an extra precaution, like locking your doors, planning ahead, or double checking something. Of course you will have an advantage over people who do not do these things, but does that mean that you shouldn't be able to do it?

4. There's really no reason to not do a lot of things. There's no reason not to take advantage of shield broken foe if you can, there's no reason not to recover from off stage if you want to win, and there's no reason not to L cancel if you aren't trading attacks or using an attack (like Roy's or Link's) that loses a hit when L cancelled.

5. The "barriers" caused by L cancelling are far smaller than any barriers in other games or even smash itself. You can L cancel 100% of the time and get bodied (see:m2k's early years), or you can not be able to and still win matches. (see: BORP)

6. Everyone seems to forget one single very important thing. This cancelling mechanic was intentionally added to smash bros. Whether it be for reason i listed or reasons unknown, this was a conscious decision by the developers to include this mechanic in the game.

7. Not wanting a mechanic in is like not wanting a character in. You may think a character like Roy is an unnecessary clone, but he has fans that want him to come back in sm4sh, and people who really don't care either way. (Like mimgrim's stance on this topic) You can have your opinions, but trying to push them on others really isn't the right way to be doing this.

1. Being forced to do unnecessary actions in video games is heavily frowned upon, usually because the developer could of easily fixed it.

2. A privilege? Who am I asking for this privilege? It's an action, like running or jumping.

3. What do you gain from having to press a button for reduced lag over it being automatic? Nothing.

4. There's plenty of different ways to recover (High or low? ^b, >b or zair? Rain projectiles on your way back? Heck, why not just KO yourself to get back faster?) and punish a shield break. (Go for the KO, or rack up damage? Charge a special? Damage him without making him flinch, or try to combo him into a worse position and potentially do even more damage?) There's only one option when in position to L-cancel.

5. The barrier isn't simply those who can and can't, it's those who know and don't know. The barrier with how L-canceling currently is only separates casuals and competitives, and requires looking up things to get past, a big no-no in video game culture no matter how you slice it.

6. Exactly, we don't know why they added it. We don't know why it was intentionally removed either. It could stay gone for the same reason it was removed for Brawl. What's stopping the reason from being Sakurai thinks it's a poor mechanic?

7. And we've had it both ways now. Should Sakurai anger the Melee fans or Brawl fans?

 

[Empyrean]

I've thought about it for a long time now, and these are my thoughts on the matter.

1.L-cancelling is a follow-up. An action that increases the effectiveness of a previous action. In this case, aerials are more effective when they are L cancelled near the ground. A follow up is taught often in games like baseball and football, because no matter how unnecessary it seems, it increases the effectiveness of the action prior as well as the next action (be it running to a base or jumping for another aerial). It also brings a slight element of realism to the game, as hitting L before hitting the ground is the equivalent of bracing yourself for the impact, which will reduce the recovery time from said impact.

2.Landing lag is a punishment for using an aerial too close to the ground, but following this up with an L-cancel reduces the punishment by half. Simply put, L cancelling is a privilege of reduced punishment. This privilege was removed in brawl because the game was simplified, and aerial combat was emphasized, so an incentive to not attack near the ground would be to take away the reduced punishment for doing so.

3.L cancelling seems to be a necessity because reduced punishment is a necessity. This is why people will rarely do things like roll and spot dodge, because the punishment for these actions can be severe, L cancelling is rather doing something to not be punished rather than not doing something punishable often. It's an extra precaution, like locking your doors, planning ahead, or double checking something. Of course you will have an advantage over people who do not do these things, but does that mean that you shouldn't be able to do it?

4. There's really no reason to not do a lot of things. There's no reason not to take advantage of shield broken foe if you can, there's no reason not to recover from off stage if you want to win, and there's no reason not to L cancel if you aren't trading attacks or using an attack (like Roy's or Link's) that loses a hit when L cancelled.

5. The "barriers" caused by L cancelling are far smaller than any barriers in other games or even smash itself. You can L cancel 100% of the time and get bodied (see:m2k's early years), or you can l cancel and still win matches. (see: BORP)

6. Everyone seems to forget one single very important thing. This cancelling mechanic was intentionally added to smash bros. Whether it be for reason i listed or reasons unknown, this was a conscious decision by the developers to include this mechanic in the game.

7. Not wanting a mechanic in is like not wanting a character in. You may think a character like Roy is an unnecessary clone, but he has fans that want him to come back in sm4sh, and people who really don't care either way. (Like mimgrim's stance on this topic) You can have your opinions, but trying to push them on others really isn't the right way to be doing this.

Amen.

 

[Muster]

1. Being forced to do unnecessary actions in video games is heavily frowned upon, usually because the developer could of easily fixed it.

2. A privilege? Who am I asking for this privilege? It's an action, like running or jumping.

3. What do you gain from having to press a button for reduced lag over it being automatic? Nothing.

4. There's plenty of different ways to recover (High or low? ^b, >b or zair? Rain projectiles on your way back? Heck, why not just KO yourself to get back faster?) and punish a shield break. (Go for the KO, or rack up damage? Charge a special? Damage him without making him flinch, or try to combo him into a worse position and potentially do even more damage?) There's only one option when in position to L-cancel.

5. The barrier isn't simply those who can and can't, it's those who know and don't know. The barrier with how L-canceling currently is only separates casuals and competitives, and requires looking up things to get past, a big no-no in video game culture no matter how you slice it.

6. Exactly, we don't know why they added it. We don't know why it was intentionally removed either. It could stay gone for the same reason it was removed for Brawl. What's stopping the reason from being Sakurai thinks it's a poor mechanic?

7. And we've had it both ways now. Should Sakurai anger the Melee fans or Brawl fans?

1. It doesn't need fixing. Sakurai did not make a mistake in including this mechanic.

2.It's a privilege that you can do this action in the first place. You don't ask for all the privileges you get, i doubt you asked to be able to go to school.

3.I've already covered this. Landing lag is a punishment. Taking away this punishment will shift the focus of the game more towards followups on aerials into ground actions, which isn't the focus of the game.

4.KO yourself? I hope you're not expecting me to take this seriously. Just because there's multiple ways to do something doesn't mean you don't have to do it, and i've already said that certain aerials and trading attacks are both pretty common situations in which L cancelling is not the best course of action all of the time. The difference L cancelling has here is it's binary nature. You don't get different results from L cancelling, but what you do after those results is what matters.

5.Like it or not, this is a big part of video game culture in general. Heck, quirks of characters like wall clinging and super armor aren't covered in game, either. Should Ike's aether lose its super armor because i used it to take an attack that would kill me and win the game, because my opponent didn't study up before hand? Not to mention just including an "L cancel" 5 second section in how to play will fix this entirely.

6.Sakurai thinking it was a poor mechanic is vastly unlikely. You should know that he has called melee the sharpest game in the series, considering you've quoted the article before. I've said before that it all depends on whether or not he deems it too advanced of a technique to be included in this game.

7. Melee's hardcore playerbase is by far larger than brawl's, this has been shown by Nintendo's approval of melee's appearance at evo and subsequent denial of brawls. The Majority of the sm4sh audience will be casual, regardless, and they'll hardly care either way. Since the game is changing from all prior versions, then brawl players and melee players will have to relearn the game, anyway.

8. I've already said this is a matter of opinion, nothing you can do is definitive enough to change my opinion on this.

This was pretty disappointing. All I got was basically somebody spitting on my post.

 

[LancerStaff]

1. It doesn't need fixing. Sakurai did not make a mistake in including this mechanic.

2.It's a privilege that you can do this action in the first place. You don't ask for all the privileges you get, i doubt you asked to be able to go to school.

3.I've already covered this. Landing lag is a punishment. Taking away this punishment will shift the focus of the game more towards followups on aerials into ground actions, which isn't the focus of the game.

4.KO yourself? I hope you're not expecting me to take this seriously. Just because there's multiple ways to do something doesn't mean you don't have to do it, and i've already said that certain aerials and trading attacks are both pretty common situations in which L cancelling is not the best course of action all of the time. The difference L cancelling has here is it's binary nature. You don't get different results from L cancelling, but what you do after those results is what matters.

5.Like it or not, this is a big part of video game culture in general. Heck, quirks of characters like wall clinging and super armor aren't covered in game, either. Should Ike's aether lose its super armor because i used it to take an attack that would kill me and win the game, because my opponent didn't study up before hand? Not to mention just including an "L cancel" 5 second section in how to play will fix this entirely.

6.Sakurai thinking it was a poor mechanic is vastly unlikely. You should know that he has called melee the sharpest game in the series, considering you've quoted the article before. I've said before that it all depends on whether or not he deems it too advanced of a technique to be included in this game.

7. Melee's hardcore playerbase is by far larger than brawl's, this has been shown by Nintendo's approval of melee's appearance at evo and subsequent denial of brawls. The Majority of the sm4sh audience will be casual, regardless, and they'll hardly care either way. Since the game is changing from all prior versions, then brawl players and melee players will have to relearn the game, anyway.

8. I've already said this is a matter of opinion, nothing you can do is definitive enough to change my opinion on this.

This was pretty disappointing. All I got was basically somebody spitting on my post.

1. It doesn't need fixing? Niether does Brawl's hitstun canceling. It's an opinion that can't be proven, but what is proven is that Sakurai wanted it gone from Brawl and there's nothing pointing to it being back. And most attacks have less leg in general, yes? Imagine trying to punish faster aerials that were L-canceled.

2. By that logic, it's a privilege that we don't have to press L after every aerial in Brawl. It's a privilege that we can attack. I really don't see you getting anywhere with this.

3. In the end, the punishment is gone for any decent player. Just because it's automatic doesn't mean the whole metagame is going to shift, just the casual game will get closer to the hardcore.

4. Somebody didn't watch the Melee doubles at APEX. And yes, the fact that there's effectively only one best choice is my and many other's problem with it. Sure, there's often a best choice in recovery and punishing a break, but you actually have to think it out and figure out how it'll react to the situation and there's actual pros and cons. When in position to L-cancel, you press L. What a thought provoking action.

5. One can logically figure things like that out accidentally, while L-canceling is pressing a random button after an aerial. And of course the CPUs demonstrate things like that quite frequently. If you saw somebody L-canceling and didn't know what they we're doing you'd think it's auto canceling if anything.

6. You can't prove what Sakurai thinks about L-canceling. Sorry, but I'm not convinced by that old comment. You can't even prove if he's talking about character balance, mechanics, or even stages, items, trophies, or modes.

7. And? Sakurai would be pleasing a minority by including L-canceling anyway, I doubt he really cares about pleasing one over the other. L-canceling's it's existence creates a rift between casual and hardcore, but I doubt he's trying to separate them when there's going to be the first SSB tournament fully supported by Nintendo that is directly in the casual eye. And isn't Japan more focused on Brawl anyway? I'd like some proof about Nintendo denying Brawl for evo also.

8. You're not changing my opinion on this either.

 

[yume_nikki]

But you can't spam it because you get penalized for mashing it repeatedly (like not being able to do anything for a second) so you actually have to time it right with a single press.

There is not such a thing with l cancel. You can mash L/R as many times as you want during the l cancel window, and you will still successfully l cancel. Anyway, even if there was a punishment for that, the mechanic would still be brainless.

It also brings a slight element of realism to the game, as hitting L before hitting the ground is the equivalent of bracing yourself for the impact, which will reduce the recovery time from said impact.

Because doing little hops constantly while throwing fast mid-air kicks without any kind of momentum (and therefore, with barely any force) is a realistic way to fight. SHFFLing makes smash fights so real and believable, and all thanks to l cancel.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

I've thought about it for a long time now, and these are my thoughts on the matter.

1.L-cancelling is a follow-up. An action that increases the effectiveness of a previous action. In this case, aerials are more effective when they are L cancelled near the ground. A follow up is taught often in games like baseball and football, because no matter how unnecessary it seems, it increases the effectiveness of the action prior as well as the next action (be it running to a base or jumping for another aerial). It also brings a slight element of realism to the game, as hitting L before hitting the ground is the equivalent of bracing yourself for the impact, which will reduce the recovery time from said impact. High Level Melee Videos are the most unrealistic, awkward, non-flowing videos I've seen, and I've actually watched a fair number of high level tournament play from multiple games. (I'm actually a fan of BlazBlue myself.)

2.Landing lag is a punishment for using an aerial too close to the ground, but following this up with an L-cancel reduces the punishment by half. Simply put, L cancelling is a privilege of reduced punishment. This privilege was removed in brawl because the game was simplified, and aerial combat was emphasized, so an incentive to not attack near the ground would be to take away the reduced punishment for doing so.

3.L cancelling seems to be a necessity because reduced punishment is a necessity. This is why people will rarely do things like roll and spot dodge, because the punishment for these actions can be severe, L cancelling is rather doing something to not be punished rather than not doing something punishable often. It's an extra precaution, like locking your doors, planning ahead, or double checking something. Of course you will have an advantage over people who do not do these things, but does that mean that you shouldn't be able to do it?

4. There's really no reason to not do a lot of things. There's no reason not to take advantage of shield broken foe if you can, there's no reason not to recover from off stage if you want to win, and there's no reason not to L cancel if you aren't trading attacks or using an attack (like Roy's or Link's) that loses a hit when L cancelled.

5. The "barriers" caused by L cancelling are far smaller than any barriers in other games or even smash itself. You can L cancel 100% of the time and get bodied (see:m2k's early years), or you can l cancel and still win matches. (see: BORP)

6. Everyone seems to forget one single very important thing. This cancelling mechanic was intentionally added to smash bros. Whether it be for reason i listed or reasons unknown, this was a conscious decision by the developers to include this mechanic in the game.

7. Not wanting a mechanic in is like not wanting a character in. You may think a character like Roy is an unnecessary clone, but he has fans that want him to come back in sm4sh, and people who really don't care either way. (Like mimgrim's stance on this topic) You can have your opinions, but trying to push them on others really isn't the right way to be doing this.

1. High Level Melee Videos are the most unrealistic, awkward, non-flowing videos I've seen, and I've actually watched a fair number of high level tournament play from multiple games. (I'm actually a fan of BlazBlue myself.)

2. Punishment? Seriously? Why am I getting punished for literally doing nothing? Is playing Smash Bros. or doing aerial attacks Original Sin?

3.Refer to above quote. I should not be punished for something that I didn't do.

4.Um...the first two make sense. They're so blatant, that the most casual and n00bish of n00bs will take advantage of those. L-cancelling is a whole nother ballpark.

5. Sure, L cancelling to you is a very small barrier, but it's an extremely tight, small window that must be pressed, or you get punished for playing, essentially. To others, it's something that they'd only grasp through literally practicing 8 hours a day for a full year or something. When Smash Bros. requires me to treat it like a job in order to be any good at it, it ceases to become fun and becomes irritating.

6. And it was taken out of Brawl. Your point?

7. Okay, I'll agree with you on this one. It is an opinion, and I personally am not trying to shove it down anyone's throat. I'm simply voicing it, is all.

 

[mimgrim]

4. There's really no reason to not do a lot of things. There's no reason not to take advantage of shield broken foe if you can, there's no reason not to recover from off stage if you want to win, and there's no reason not to L cancel if you aren't trading attacks or using an attack (like Roy's or Link's) that loses a hit when L cancelled.

Mustard, I am quite sure you could have came up with better examples then that. Even a stupid idiot could figure out what makes those 2 things different from L-cancel. Those 2 things require you to think on what to do at that current moment and figure which way to punish and which way to recover is best at that current moment. L-cancel is more of a "what do you do after you do it" kinda thing rather than "what is the best thing to do in this current situation" thing, at least using it in the context you are trying to use. If you have to, use examples from other games. Perhaps use something like Jump-canceled Grab, not a perfect example but it basically boils down to "why would you dash grab when you can JC Grab?" with the exception of Peach of course, because dash grab is just as fast as her standing grab YOLO, however it still isn't a perfect example while there are better examples that you can use from other games, just explain how the mechanic works in the other game for those who might not have played it.

7. Not wanting a mechanic in is like not wanting a character in. You may think a character like Roy is an unnecessary clone, but he has fans that want him to come back in sm4sh, and people who really don't care either way. (Like mimgrim's stance on this topic) You can have your opinions, but trying to push them on others really isn't the right way to be doing this.

 

[Muster]

1. It doesn't need fixing? Niether does Brawl's hitstun canceling. It's an opinion that can't be proven, but what is proven is that Sakurai wanted it gone from Brawl and there's nothing pointing to it being back. And most attacks have less leg in general, yes? Imagine trying to punish faster aerials that were L-canceled.

2. By that logic, it's a privilege that we don't have to press L after every aerial in Brawl. It's a privilege that we can attack. I really don't see you getting anywhere with this.

3. In the end, the punishment is gone for any decent player. Just because it's automatic doesn't mean the whole metagame is going to shift, just the casual game will get closer to the hardcore.

4. Somebody didn't watch the Melee doubles at APEX. And yes, the fact that there's effectively only one best choice is my and many other's problem with it. Sure, there's often a best choice in recovery and punishing a break, but you actually have to think it out and figure out how it'll react to the situation and there's actual pros and cons. When in position to L-cancel, you press L. What a thought provoking action.

5. One can logically figure things like that out accidentally, while L-canceling is pressing a random button after an aerial. And of course the CPUs demonstrate things like that quite frequently. If you saw somebody L-canceling and didn't know what they we're doing you'd think it's auto canceling if anything.

6. You can't prove what Sakurai thinks about L-canceling. Sorry, but I'm not convinced by that old comment. You can't even prove if he's talking about character balance, mechanics, or even stages, items, trophies, or modes.

7. And? Sakurai would be pleasing a minority by including L-canceling anyway, I doubt he really cares about pleasing one over the other. L-canceling's it's existence creates a rift between casual and hardcore, but I doubt he's trying to separate them when there's going to be the first SSB tournament fully supported by Nintendo that is directly in the casual eye. And isn't Japan more focused on Brawl anyway? I'd like some proof about Nintendo denying Brawl for evo also.

8. You're not changing my opinion on this either.

1.I don't even see what you're trying to pull here. Hitstun cancelling hasn't even been deconfirmed yet, and L cancelling stayed in some form for every game but the one intentionally simplified, and potentially the one setting a middle ground. Attacks have the same lag as before. Heck, some aerials have more lag, if anything.

2.You've missed the point entirely, once again. The punishment was the landing lag, and the privilege was the reduction. The cost was the button press, it's really this simple. In Brawl, not being able to press L resulted in repercussions with landing lag. It's technically a privilege that Sakurai even makes smash bros. games anymore, if you're going down that route. The gameplay is just privileges stacked on each other, as well.

3.the change will be in the skill floor, which is very important to the smash bros series. Lower landing lag 100% of the time means any idiot can jump in with ike's Fair and then spam Fsmash, or any other casual-broken combos like that, basically ruining it for casual players. Setting lower landing lag to an option really just adds unnecessary complications to a simple options menu, and automatic breaks the slower pace of the game that Casual players are meant to get used to.

4.Doubles is an entirely different beast, stocks don't matter as much and effective teamwork takes precedence over any kind of skill that one of the players has. If you haven't noticed, Muscle Memory is just as big as a part in esports and real sports as actual thought is.

5.Assuming you even knew what auto cancelling was. L cancelling not being introduced in a tutorial is pretty much the biggest mistake Sakurai made regarding it. And what a mistake it was, not putting the "advanced techniques" in the manual and leaving players to find out.

6.He sure as hell wasn't talking about flaws. He's certainly talking about the gameplay, as he even mentions how hardcore the gameplay is for the game in later interviews.

7. There's no reason not to please this minority if the feature in question won't affect the majority. The existence of L cancelling just slightly widens an insanely large rift between these casual and competitive players. Basically any mechanic that requires any amount of skill does, (for example, taking advantage of new ledge mechanics will make a bigger rift than L cancelling ever will.) that doesn't really mean anything bad. They've been separated since day one, and this tournament is really just eye candy to everyone not playing, either way.
Brawl was negotiated as well as melee, there's a slot only for melee in evo, do the math.

8. Then why did you reply? You're just wasting my time, as usual.

edit:Check my post below, what would you think of this mechanic appearing instead?

Because doing little hops constantly while throwing fast mid-air kicks without any kind of momentum (and therefore, with barely any force) is a realistic way to fight. SHFFLing makes smash fights so real and believable, and all thanks to l cancel.

Taking advantage of a mechanic and proficiently using it doesn't really have to be realistic. Mid air attacks aren't really realistic without L cancelling, either. It's an element of realism in which the player is involved in interacting with their character more than before.

@ Ogre_Deity_Link
Do you expect me to reply to this? there's literally nothing in the quote because you've included everything in the previous quote. Why should i bother replying when you can't bother unquoting your posts?

Mustard, I am quite sure you could have came up with better examples then that. Even a stupid idiot could figure out what makes those 2 things different from L-cancel. Those 2 things require you to think on what to do at that current moment and figure which way to punish and which way to recover is best at that current moment. L-cancel is more of a "what do you do after you do it" kinda thing rather than "what is the best thing to do in this current situation" thing, at least using it in the context you are trying to use. If you have to, use examples from other games. Perhaps use something like Jump-canceled Grab, not a perfect example but it basically boils down to "why would you dash grab when you can JC Grab?" with the exception of Peach of course, because dash grab is just as fast as her standing grab YOLO, however it still isn't a perfect example while there are better examples that you can use from other games, just explain how the mechanic works in the other game for those who might not have played it.

insert swanson gif

Honestly, less thought was put into some of the points than others. L cancelling is a unique mechanic that really doesn't need to be compared to others. I'd rather not waste my time comparing the mechanic to other games or real life, because these people just shrug off anything i say and throw the same bread and butter points that have been going on for the last 8 pages, anyway.
(Funny, i don't see people complain about crouch jumping in source games, or Paper mario's post move tricks.)


Laugh all you want, i have met my mimgrim mentioning quota for the month.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Sorry, I was trying to answer it in the quotes. If it's that big of an issue, I can unquote the responses. Yeesh.

EDIT: There, is that better?

 

[mimgrim]

Honestly, less thought was put into some of the points than others. L cancelling is a unique mechanic that really doesn't need to be compared to others. I'd rather not waste my time comparing the mechanic to other games or real life, because these people just shrug off anything i say and throw the same bread and butter points that have been going on for the last 8 pages, anyway.

That's fair enough I suppose. You should just c/p my Gears of War comparison then. No one has yet to counter it effectively. xD

Laugh all you want, i have met my mimgrim mentioning quota for the month.

 

[Muster]

Sorry, I was trying to answer it in the quotes. If it's that big of an issue, I can unquote the responses. Yeesh.

EDIT: There, is that better?

Thank you.

1. High Level Melee Videos are the most unrealistic, awkward, non-flowing videos I've seen, and I've actually watched a fair number of high level tournament play from multiple games. (I'm actually a fan of BlazBlue myself.)

2. Punishment? Seriously? Why am I getting punished for literally doing nothing? Is playing Smash Bros. or doing aerial attacks Original Sin?

3.Refer to above quote. I should not be punished for something that I didn't do.

4.Um...the first two make sense. They're so blatant, that the most casual and n00bish of n00bs will take advantage of those. L-cancelling is a whole nother ballpark.

5. Sure, L cancelling to you is a very small barrier, but it's an extremely tight, small window that must be pressed, or you get punished for playing, essentially. To others, it's something that they'd only grasp through literally practicing 8 hours a day for a full year or something. When Smash Bros. requires me to treat it like a job in order to be any good at it, it ceases to become fun and becomes irritating.

6. And it was taken out of Brawl. Your point?

7. Okay, I'll agree with you on this one. It is an opinion, and I personally am not trying to shove it down anyone's throat. I'm simply voicing it, is all.

1. This is a matter of opinion. I've never seen games where combos flow together better than smash games.

2.You get punished a lot in smash bros, any attack with lag afterwards has that lag as a punishment to using the move. You can dispute the use of the word, but the vulnerability that you get after pretty much every action is a real thing. L cancelling likely exists because landing lag generally does not exist in other games, so this in a sense is a "play faster" option that you can often take advantage of and that isn't very punishable. The safeness of this option is obviously the biggest beef people have with it.

3. The thing you're arguing against here is landing lag. Removing L cancelling will not affect this punishment, as L cancelling's existence is alleviating this punishment.

4.I've covered this with Mimgrim

5.Then don't revolve your attacks around L cancelling. Focus More on ground attacks and higher aerial attacks if you don't want to L cancel. I see that you main link, who's attacks are usually so slow that even a double jump aerial needs to b l cancelled. Learning is different for everyone, regardless of mechanics, i know. Someone here already mentioned that they find fast falling harder than L cancelling. (I find spacing harder than L cancelling)

The part where smash ceases to be fun is also subjective. Some people master the game joylessly, while some do so out of pure love for the game. It happens for a multitude of games and sports everywhere.

6.I've already stated my theories on why it was taken out of brawl (Tl;dr, game was simplified on purpose and aerial combat was a larger focus of the game). If Sakurai truly went back on his design choices and said that he regretted the decision of adding in L cancelling, then i'll believe that L cancelling was a mistake, and not simply a mechanic that has been on hiatus.

7.We're all just voicing our opinions here. I'd rather not be here, but my side of this case is getting lots of hate.

@ mimgrim I'd like to use entirely my own thoughts on the post, but your GoW argument's inability to be countered has really just proven the points presented. (Goddamn i could never get that enhanced reload!)

Spoiler

edit: I forgot a really important feature in brawl, buffering. Buffering is using an action out of a previous action by hitting the command before you can do the action so it's immediately performed after.
Come to think of it, i think that's a pretty good idea! instead of L cancelling returning, landing lag get IASA frames when it's halfway through, so you can go into another actions just as fast as if you l cancelled while keeping landing lag itself. What would you think of that?
(I think it's a good compromise between people who don't want to L cancel, people who want to act out of aerials quickly, and the current speed of the game)

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

That's fair enough I suppose. You should just c/p my Gears of War comparison then. No one has yet to counter it effectively. xD

Honestly, I've never played GoW, so I'm no position to counter it even if I wanted to. :\

 

[LancerStaff]

1.I don't even see what you're trying to pull here. Hitstun cancelling hasn't even been deconfirmed yet, and L cancelling stayed in some form for every game but the one intentionally simplified, and potentially the one setting a middle ground. Attacks have the same lag as before. Heck, some aerials have more lag, if anything.

2.You've missed the point entirely, once again. The punishment was the landing lag, and the privilege was the reduction. The cost was the button press, it's really this simple. In Brawl, not being able to press L resulted in repercussions with landing lag. It's technically a privilege that Sakurai even makes smash bros. games anymore, if you're going down that route. The gameplay is just privileges stacked on each other, as well.

3.the change will be in the skill floor, which is very important to the smash bros series. Lower landing lag 100% of the time means any idiot can jump in with ike's Fair and then spam Fsmash, or any other casual-broken combos like that, basically ruining it for casual players. Setting lower landing lag to an option really just adds unnecessary complications to a simple options menu, and automatic breaks the slower pace of the game that Casual players are meant to get used to.

4.Doubles is an entirely different beast, stocks don't matter as much and effective teamwork takes precedence over any kind of skill that one of the players has. If you haven't noticed, Muscle Memory is just as big as a part in esports and real sports as actual thought is.

5.Assuming you even knew what auto cancelling was. L cancelling not being introduced in a tutorial is pretty much the biggest mistake Sakurai made regarding it. And what a mistake it was, not putting the "advanced techniques" in the manual and leaving players to find out.

6.He sure as hell wasn't talking about flaws. He's certainly talking about the gameplay, as he even mentions how hardcore the gameplay is for the game in later interviews.

7. There's no reason not to please this minority if the feature in question won't affect the majority. The existence of L cancelling just slightly widens an insanely large rift between these casual and competitive players. Basically any mechanic that requires any amount of skill does, (for example, taking advantage of new ledge mechanics will make a bigger rift than L cancelling ever will.) that doesn't really mean anything bad. They've been separated since day one, and this tournament is really just eye candy to everyone not playing, either way.
Brawl was negotiated as well as melee, there's a slot only for melee in evo, do the math.

8. Then why did you reply? You're just wasting my time, as usual.

edit:Check my post below, what would you think of this mechanic appearing instead?

Taking advantage of a mechanic and proficiently using it doesn't really have to be realistic. Mid air attacks aren't really realistic without L cancelling, either. It's an element of realism in which the player is involved in interacting with their character more than before.

@ Ogre_Deity_Link
Do you expect me to reply to this? there's literally nothing in the quote because you've included everything in the previous quote. Why should i bother replying when you can't bother unquoting your posts?



Honestly, less thought was put into some of the points than others. L cancelling is a unique mechanic that really doesn't need to be compared to others. I'd rather not waste my time comparing the mechanic to other games or real life, because these people just shrug off anything i say and throw the same bread and butter points that have been going on for the last 8 pages, anyway.
(Funny, i don't see people complain about crouch jumping in source games, or Paper mario's post move tricks.)


Laugh all you want, i have met my mimgrim mentioning quota for the month.

1. There is no objectively better option in both cases is what I'm getting at. Either way it effects everybody.

2. There's one thing I don't understand, what you're trying to get at here.

3. You're just not fixing lower casual play, considering the game is more geared to those who can beat lvl 9s then basement level. Heck, I'd bet the basement level players would call most aerials cheap, but nobody in their skill level uses them.

4. My point still stands.

5. Sorry, automatically L-canceling. And as soon as it's mainstream, the "protect the casuals" idea really doesn't work anymore. Not telling players crucial information is antiquated design and was hated even back then.

6. He never says "sharpest game" and "hardcore gameplay" in the same context. He's even said how serving the hardcores is usually a bad thing, and how Dragon King was made to be the uncompetitive fighter.

7. No, it will effect casuals when they fight hardcores. It's more common then you think, and will be even more frequent with for glory around. And from what I understand, the new ledge mechanics will practically destroy edgeguarding and planking since you get more invincibility the longer you're in the air. You should of seen the kids on Miiverse rejoicing about how edgeguarding was dead...

8. You replied too.

Also, there's the timing tutor badge in PM:tTYD obtained from the starpiece trader.

I'd accept your idea for thereplacement, but all around reduced lag would be better. But hey, it fixes my problems with L-canceling. Casuals could easily find it, (I literally don't know a SSB player who isn't mashing the buttons for their next move lol) and it doesn't require extra imputs. Just a potentially finicky mechanic.

 

[RODO]

There is not such a thing with l cancel. You can mash L/R as many times as you want during the l cancel window, and you will still successfully l cancel. Anyway, even if there was a punishment for that, the mechanic would still be brainless.




Because doing little hops constantly while throwing fast mid-air kicks without any kind of momentum (and therefore, with barely any force) is a realistic way to fight. SHFFLing makes smash fights so real and believable, and all thanks to l cancel.

Ahh yes you are right, I was thinking about teching landings.

 

[Tomo009]

As a new smash player but not a new fighting game player, I don't think it should be implemented in the same way at all.

A better system I think would be different recovery times based on whether double jump was used or not, or even whether it was from a short hop or full jump. Would make you think about your options more instead of give you an execution hurdle to make yourself safer.

I cannot think of any practical reason that L cancelling exists, it is designing for execution skill and not designing for depth, but if someone wants to enlighten me on how it actually improves the game I'd be glad to hear it.


The worst thing to do would be to just have a flat, high recovery time though, in my opinion. If it absolutely has to be either l cancel returning or ridiculous recoveries on all aerials, give us l cancel please.

 

[Muster]

1. There is no objectively better option in both cases is what I'm getting at. Either way it effects everybody.

2. There's one thing I don't understand, what you're trying to get at here.

3. You're just not fixing lower casual play, considering the game is more geared to those who can beat lvl 9s then basement level. Heck, I'd bet the basement level players would call most aerials cheap, but nobody in their skill level uses them.

4. My point still stands.

5. Sorry, automatically L-canceling. And as soon as it's mainstream, the "protect the casuals" idea really doesn't work anymore. Not telling players crucial information is antiquated design and was hated even back then.

6. He never says "sharpest game" and "hardcore gameplay" in the same context. He's even said how serving the hardcores is usually a bad thing, and how Dragon King was made to be the uncompetitive fighter.

7. No, it will effect casuals when they fight hardcores. It's more common then you think, and will be even more frequent with for glory around. And from what I understand, the new ledge mechanics will practically destroy edgeguarding and planking since you get more invincibility the longer you're in the air. You should of seen the kids on Miiverse rejoicing about how edgeguarding was dead...

8. You replied too.

Also, there's the timing tutor badge in PM:tTYD obtained from the starpiece trader.

I'd accept your idea for thereplacement, but all around reduced lag would be better. But hey, it fixes my problems with L-canceling. Casuals could easily find it, (I literally don't know a SSB player who isn't mashing the buttons for their next move lol) and it doesn't require extra imputs. Just a potentially finicky mechanic.

1.This has completely severed from what the topic was.

2. It's simple. The problem was that landing lag left you open for attacks when they were used close to the ground, and Sakurai's solution was L cancelling. He could've just ignored this all together and the metagame would've changed vastly.

3.The Majority of the game's sales will not be coming from the higher skilled players, that's for sure.

4.momgrom

5.That's what i said. The biggest mistake he made regarding L cancelling was not telling people about it.

6. I said "in later interviews." Sakurai mentions that the next game will be the middle ground between the maniacs and the newcomers, so "serving the hardcores" is certainly being done now.

7. It won't destroy edge guarding, it will change it. the offender will make sure to get in the air or make sure the edge is never reached, rather than using invincibility to hog the edge.

8.I'm defending my opinion. I wasn't forcing it on anyone or even suggesting it should be taken into account.

The mechanic can potentially be taken in a lot of directions, regarding character balance.

2sleepy now.

 

[yume_nikki]

3.the change will be in the skill floor, which is very important to the smash bros series. Lower landing lag 100% of the time means any idiot can jump in with ike's Fair and then spam Fsmash, or any other casual-broken combos like that, basically ruining it for casual players. Setting lower landing lag to an option really just adds unnecessary complications to a simple options menu, and automatic breaks the slower pace of the game that Casual players are meant to get used to.

That’s completely not true. I have played Project M with casual players, with l cancel and with a general lag reduction code, and they don’t notice any difference, even after telling them what l cancel is. It’s not like “omg, lower landing lag, this game is too fast and broken for me, I’m not playing anymore”. If anything, in the long term they enjoy more the game because they have more possibilities than being always 4 stocked against technical proficient players.

Also, good technical players don’t notice either, since they’re l cancelling every time they can (which is in the vast majority of cases the proper way to play) and they rarely miss one. What a great loss would be having automatic l cancel.

 

[Muster]

That’s completely not true. I have played Project M with casual players, with l cancel and with a general lag reduction code, and they don’t notice any difference, even after telling them what l cancel is. It’s not like “omg, lower landing lag, this game is too fast and broken for me, I’m not playing anymore”. If anything, in the long term they enjoy more the game because they have more possibilities than being always 4 stocked against technical proficient players.

Also, good technical players don’t notice either, since they’re l cancelling every time they can (which is in the vast majority of cases the proper way to play) and they rarely miss one. What a great loss would be having automatic l cancel.

Your friends "not noticing" really doesn't mean anything if there are opposing sides to this case.
I've gotten friends to play with and without a code on for automatic L cancelling, and they all preferred without because the game became "too fast". One guy was just spamming aerials because he'd recover fast, and the others felt that they were obligated to do stuff with aerials they didn't want to because it became such a good and safe option.
Within the hour they were all frustrated and we ended up going back to Brawl.
Edit (When we played without the code they enjoyed it much more. It's just when i turned on the code that the fun was getting ruined)

A wasted input is a wasted input, noticed or not. a Technical player isn't accomplishing anything by hitting L if it's automatic, so them not noticing is really just lying to themselves.
L cancelling provides a necessary barrier in between the slower gameplay and the faster gameplay. Reducing lag as a whole would be like removing a Dam.

Tl;dr: there are two sides to this coin

But just to be devil's advocate here. Brawl had no l-cancelling, Im sure we all know that. That didnt mean that all the moves had terrible landing lag. Some moves like Marth's F-air, Kirby's U-air, Falcon's N-air, and all of Samus's aerials, etc. had almost no landing lag. Not to mention some characters had *almost* completely safe auto cancelled moves since the hitbox almost went right up to the autocancelled frames such as Lucas' N-air, Peach's F-air, etc. Casual's looooved that game. In fact a lot of them preferred different, usually punishable, moves like Ike's F-smash or Pika's Thunder.

I believe the biggest difference would be in the slow/strong characters that are already pretty good in casual play. (Ike) Their aerials getting more speed would result in lots of complaints along the lines of "op pls nerf".'

Spoiler

I hope both casual and competitive players will love this game.

 

[Phan7om]

I get what Muster is saying. L-cancel is that one move that seperates casual slow play, and competitive fast play. If every move "auto l-cancelled" casuals would think the game is too fast and not want to play it because there is no punish time for the aerials....

But just to be devil's advocate here. Brawl had no l-cancelling, Im sure we all know that. That didnt mean that all the moves had terrible landing lag. Some moves like Marth's F-air, Kirby's U-air, Falcon's N-air, and all of Samus's aerials, etc. had almost no landing lag. Not to mention some characters had *almost* completely safe auto cancelled moves since the hitbox almost went right up to the autocancelled frames such as Lucas' N-air, Peach's F-air, etc. Casual's looooved that game. In fact a lot of them preferred different, usually punishable, moves like Ike's F-smash or Pika's Thunder.

To me it would seem that it affects a certain range of players. Above the "casual" player, but below the "competitive" player where they notice that the move is spammable because it has almost no landing lag, but they dont really know how to adapt to it. Like I said before, casuals loved Brawl even tho half the aerials had barely any landing lag... on top of that, buffer that allowed them to act on the 1st frame they could. "They didnt think the game is too fast because Brawl is slow." you might be thinking. Keep in mind, Smash 4 is somewhere in between Brawl and Melee speed wise so it probably wont be that much faster. Just something to consider.

 

[Shikenshu]

Isn't l-cancel a little bit like plinking (sf4).

For those who don't know, plinking involve pressing a second button 1 frame after you pressed the first button, doubling the input. It's useful when a combo requires a 1-frame link, because it allow you to hit the input twice, making the 1-frame link easier.

Is plinking more legitimate than l-cancel? because both require you to press a button for something that you want to do 100% of the times. There is no reason to not l-cancel and there is no reason to not plink. Then why sf4 devs doesn't remove plinking and add an additional 1 frame window to perform 1 frame link? And also, why sf4 players doesn't complain about plinking?

tbh, casuals wouldn't see the difference if l-cancel is in the game, but competitive players would see the difference if it's missing, then why not add it. Also, you don't need to use l-cancel to play the game, I played at least 5 years of melee without l-cancel and I never saw something missing. Also, pros don't simply beat casuals because they can l-cancel and wavedash, but because they play smarter. If a casual is smart enough, he can win without ATs. My friend don't use wavedash or l-cancel, but at his first local, he won against a lot of player who used ATs. Why, because he was smarter.

 

[Ulevo]

Isn't l-cancel a little bit like plinking (sf4).

For those who don't know, plinking involve pressing a second button 1 frame after you pressed the first button, doubling the input. It's useful when a combo requires a 1-frame link, because it allow you to hit the input twice, making the 1-frame link easier.

Is plinking more legitimate than l-cancel? because both require you to press a button for something that you want to do 100% of the times. There is no reason to not l-cancel and there is no reason to not plink. Then why sf4 devs doesn't remove plinking and add an additional 1 frame window to perform 1 frame link? And also, why sf4 players doesn't complain about plinking?

tbh, casuals wouldn't see the difference if l-cancel is in the game, but competitive players would see the difference if it's missing, then why not add it. Also, you don't need to use l-cancel to play the game, I played at least 5 years of melee without l-cancel and I never saw something missing. Also, pros don't simply beat casuals because they can l-cancel and wavedash, but because they play smarter. If a casual is smart enough, he can win without ATs. My friend don't use wavedash or l-cancel, but at his first local, he won against a lot of player who used ATs. Why, because he was smarter.

Just to illuminate something. Advanced techniques don't allow a player who is bad to beat a player who is good on a consistent basis, or rather a player who is worse to beat a player who is better. What they will do is exacerbate how much of an advantage the smarter or better player has over the worse player simply because that player has more options of self expression within the medium. If we take two artists, one who is terrible, and one who is an exceptional, and both give them a single crayon to draw with and ask them to compete with one another to prove their artistic value, the difference in quality between the two is going to be much closer than if we gave both of them an entire art set of brushes, pastels, paints, and so on. This is because the tools at the better players disposal increase their results almost exponentially, as opposed to linearly.

L-Cancelling isn't an issue for casual players because they either don't know that it's there to use, or they know and simply don't care about it, or don't want to use it. L-Cancelling isn't an issue for competitive players because it's honestly relatively easy to do, and competitive players will adopt things in order to improve their performance rather than sit there on an internet forum and ***** about it.

Where L-Cancelling meets the most rub is with what I like to call casual-competitive players. These are players who are among a casual demographic but like to win, usually hate losing, are competitive in nature, but not competitive by practice. These are the players that are the 'big fish in the small pond' types. The ones who don't attend tournaments but like to be the best among their friends, and will call a tactic cheap if it starts to present itself as a barrier for them to succeed, rather than overcoming it. L-Cancelling is an issue to these breed of players because they don't have the mind set to adopt what is necessary to move on or progress and are unwilling to accept what is holding them back. It becomes especially problematic when a bigger fish who is competitive steps in to their pond or they venture out of their pond and in to bigger waters.

To me, this presents an issue with the person(s) as an individual, and not the fault of any one mechanic. This doesn't dispute what any people have said for or against L-Cancelling in this thread (the legitimate points anyway), but it is something worth keeping in mind.

 

[Tomo009]

Isn't l-cancel a little bit like plinking (sf4).

For those who don't know, plinking involve pressing a second button 1 frame after you pressed the first button, doubling the input. It's useful when a combo requires a 1-frame link, because it allow you to hit the input twice, making the 1-frame link easier.

Is plinking more legitimate than l-cancel? because both require you to press a button for something that you want to do 100% of the times. There is no reason to not l-cancel and there is no reason to not plink. Then why sf4 devs doesn't remove plinking and add an additional 1 frame window to perform 1 frame link? And also, why sf4 players doesn't complain about plinking?

tbh, casuals wouldn't see the difference if l-cancel is in the game, but competitive players would see the difference if it's missing, then why not add it. Also, you don't need to use l-cancel to play the game, I played at least 5 years of melee without l-cancel and I never saw something missing. Also, pros don't simply beat casuals because they can l-cancel and wavedash, but because they play smarter. If a casual is smart enough, he can win without ATs. My friend don't use wavedash or l-cancel, but at his first local, he won against a lot of player who used ATs. Why, because he was smarter.

Plinking makes things EASIER, it isn't a necessary technique that just makes your character faster. It gives you an extra frame leniency on tough links as you said.

Plinking is also possible to learn by anyone in a matter of minutes and is always consistent, no adjusting for height.

That said, plinking is basically just input leniency, Street FIghter 4's system turns it into what it is. The technique itself is really pianoing 2 buttons.

L cancel is more comparable to Guilty Gear FRC I think, very difficult to pull off on different moves/timings and very necessary at high levels of play. Both could be made significantly easier without removing any depth whatsoever in the game. Of course GGXrd has YRC instead of FRC which is a very different system, so I don't think it is a direct evolution of FRC.

 

[yume_nikki]

Isn't l-cancel a little bit like plinking (sf4).

For those who don't know, plinking involve pressing a second button 1 frame after you pressed the first button, doubling the input. It's useful when a combo requires a 1-frame link, because it allow you to hit the input twice, making the 1-frame link easier.

Is plinking more legitimate than l-cancel? because both require you to press a button for something that you want to do 100% of the times. There is no reason to not l-cancel and there is no reason to not plink. Then why sf4 devs doesn't remove plinking and add an additional 1 frame window to perform 1 frame link? And also, why sf4 players doesn't complain about plinking?

tbh, casuals wouldn't see the difference if l-cancel is in the game, but competitive players would see the difference if it's missing, then why not add it. Also, you don't need to use l-cancel to play the game, I played at least 5 years of melee without l-cancel and I never saw something missing. Also, pros don't simply beat casuals because they can l-cancel and wavedash, but because they play smarter. If a casual is smart enough, he can win without ATs. My friend don't use wavedash or l-cancel, but at his first local, he won against a lot of player who used ATs. Why, because he was smarter.

Plinking is not intentional, is just messing with the input priority system of the game.
Besides, it only helps to perform some combos, those who have one frame links. In fact, I think some characters don't even need one frame link combos to be competitive playable, but I'm not into SFIV meta.
Anyway, it's not an intentional input you have to do many times during every combo to be a decent player, no matter what character you choose. And removing it would imply severely modifying the SFIV engine.

Where L-Cancelling meets the most rub is with what I like to call casual-competitive players. These are players who are among a casual demographic but like to win, usually hate losing, are competitive in nature, but not competitive by practice. These are the players that are the 'big fish in the small pond' types. The ones who don't attend tournaments but like to be the best among their friends, and will call a tactic cheap if it starts to present itself as a barrier for them to succeed, rather than overcoming it. L-Cancelling is an issue to these breed of players because they don't have the mind set to adopt what is necessary to move on or progress and are unwilling to accept what is holding them back. It becomes especially problematic when a bigger fish who is competitive steps in to their pond or they venture out of their pond and in to bigger waters.

To me, this presents an issue with the person(s) as an individual, and not the fault of any one mechanic. This doesn't dispute what any people have said for or against L-Cancelling in this thread (the legitimate points anyway), but it is something worth keeping in mind.

"Please have into account that most people against l cancel are scrubs that have never attended to a tournament, despite I know nothing about them. Therefore, not liking l cancel is their fault".
Is this supposed to be a serious point supporting l cancel?

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

Just to illuminate something. Advanced techniques don't allow a player who is bad to beat a player who is good on a consistent basis, or rather a player who is worse to beat a player who is better. What they will do is exacerbate how much of an advantage the smarter or better player has over the worse player simply because that player has more options of self expression within the medium. If we take two artists, one who is terrible, and one who is an exceptional, and both give them a single crayon to draw with and ask them to compete with one another to prove their artistic value, the difference in quality between the two is going to be much closer than if we gave both of them an entire art set of brushes, pastels, paints, and so on. This is because the tools at the better players disposal increase their results almost exponentially, as opposed to linearly.

L-Cancelling isn't an issue for casual players because they either don't know that it's there to use, or they know and simply don't care about it, or don't want to use it. L-Cancelling isn't an issue for competitive players because it's honestly relatively easy to do, and competitive players will adopt things in order to improve their performance rather than sit there on an internet forum and ***** about it.

Where L-Cancelling meets the most rub is with what I like to call casual-competitive players. These are players who are among a casual demographic but like to win, usually hate losing, are competitive in nature, but not competitive by practice. These are the players that are the 'big fish in the small pond' types. The ones who don't attend tournaments but like to be the best among their friends, and will call a tactic cheap if it starts to present itself as a barrier for them to succeed, rather than overcoming it. L-Cancelling is an issue to these breed of players because they don't have the mind set to adopt what is necessary to move on or progress and are unwilling to accept what is holding them back. It becomes especially problematic when a bigger fish who is competitive steps in to their pond or they venture out of their pond and in to bigger waters.

To me, this presents an issue with the person(s) as an individual, and not the fault of any one mechanic. This doesn't dispute what any people have said for or against L-Cancelling in this thread (the legitimate points anyway), but it is something worth keeping in mind.

This entire post shows everything wrong with this community as a whole. It's a thinly veiled insult to anyone who doesn't follow the 'competitive' view. Even your last little sentence there trying to make yourself sound innocent is a very thinly hidden middle finger to anyone who doesn't agree with "tech barriers' and 'depth' and whatever buzzwords you want to throw around. I tried being nice, but with posts like this, it really pisses me off. The tone is arrogant, condescending and smacks of hypocrisy. Before this, I was willing to agree to disagree and be on my merry way, but this....this is just absurd.

 

[KaVon]

I'm positive L-Cancelling isn't going to be in Smash 4 but the reason I like it is because it rewards you for being precise with your actions.

 

[Tomo009]

My general opinion is that if it doesn't make your interactions with your opponent any more interesting or add a layer of mind games to play, it doesn't really need to exist.

 

[Ulevo]

This entire post shows everything wrong with this community as a whole. It's a thinly veiled insult to anyone who doesn't follow the 'competitive' view. Even your last little sentence there trying to make yourself sound innocent is a very thinly hidden middle finger to anyone who doesn't agree with "tech barriers' and 'depth' and whatever buzzwords you want to throw around. I tried being nice, but with posts like this, it really pisses me off. The tone is arrogant, condescending and smacks of hypocrisy. Before this, I was willing to agree to disagree and be on my merry way, but this....this is just absurd.

Yes, we truly are a terrible bunch.

"Please have into account that most people against l cancel are scrubs that have never attended to a tournament, despite I know nothing about them. Therefore, not liking l cancel is their fault".
Is this supposed to be a serious point supporting l cancel?

I suppose I'll answer that when you're able to interpret the post properly.

 

[Ogre_Deity_Link]

To me, this presents an issue with the person(s) as an individual, and not the fault of any one mechanic. This doesn't dispute what any people have said for or against L-Cancelling in this thread (the legitimate points anyway), but it is something worth keeping in mind.

Maybe you just put it wrong. I could be reading too deep into this. But this sentence right there. That sentence. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you're basically saying that there's nothing wrong with L-cancelling, just something wrong with anyone who doesn't like it? And what defines the 'legitimate points' anyway? The ones that agree that L-cancelling should return?

 

[Ulevo]

"Please have into account that most people against l cancel are scrubs that have never attended to a tournament, despite I know nothing about them. Therefore, not liking l cancel is their fault".
Is this supposed to be a serious point supporting l cancel?

Maybe you just put it wrong. I could be reading too deep into this. But this sentence right there. That sentence. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me you're basically saying that there's nothing wrong with L-cancelling, just something wrong with anyone who doesn't like it? And what defines the 'legitimate points' anyway? The ones that agree that L-cancelling should return?

You're reading it incorrectly is what is happening.

What I am saying is that both sides, the pro and anti L-Cancelling 'parties' if you will, have in my opinion made legitimate points for its inclusion and exclusion. And I say this as a 'semi-pro' L-Cancelling player myself. Logistically I think the anti-L-Cancelling players have better arguments because simply put the mechanic is a matter of player preference and direction by the development team, like I've previously stated, so you can't really make a solid claim for why it has to be in. Despite this though, in my observation, the people who have the biggest problem with L-Cancelling (and usually the people with the poorest arguments) are those who fall under what I described as casual competitive players. This is pretty much for the same reasons why these players will typically have complaints about Melee overall as being too mechanically demanding, just that L-Cancelling is easier to isolate and attack because people smarter or more competitively involved or inclined then them are making legitimate cases against L-Cancelling that coincides with their sentiments that they can parrot and bandwagon.

tl;dr, casual-competitive players usually hate the mechanic the most with the least amount rationale.

Edit: Just so I try to make it clearer, another way to put it is this. A casual competitive player getting trashed by a veteran player because they have a handle on how to L-Cancel, in and of itself, is not a reasonable merit to hate L-Cancelling any more than a bad player in Brawl getting trashed by Meta Knight from an experienced player is to hate Meta Knight. And while there are good, logical reasons to dislike both of them as inclusions in the Smash series, the ones who argue loudest against both are usually the casual competitive players who got trashed by either, and they usually don't have good reasons for their position, or they rely on the arguments of others more experience than they are without understanding why those reasons are legitimate.